Huh. so for her, religiously, she wouldn't be married to you? Or is it because you would be "renewing" your vows in a catholic church? I am truly ignorant in all of this, myself not being a member of any religion myself, practicing or otherwise.

I was referring to our first marriage 20 years ago, not our imminent re-marriage. It was a parenthetical comment, which perhaps I should have left out since it only caused confusion. But I made it to be factually accurate so as not be corrected by anyone with knowledge of Muslim beliefs.

Not at all untrue. It's not adultery if the woman is not a believer. Just3's WW is a conquest; their marriage doesn't count. Read Reliance of the Traveller, 09.13. That part deals with sex with married women, whose marriages are ended at the moment of their capture. They are called "Those that your right hands own" and the women are spoils of war.
Their marriages can be "poof" dissolved at the conquest, the women are the rightful property of the conquerer. Demonstrating that men cannot protect their own women is an age old practice of war. Slavery,rape and sale of conquered women and children has canonic approval in the Koran.

Most moderate Muslims don't practice that aspect of the faith, but unlike in Judiasm and Christianity, which evolved toward more tolerance, those early ideas have never been erased or evolved to a pacific ideal. A truly devout believer can find justifications in the holy books as well as from present day clergy. Examples abound on the 'net, easily found with a search.

The shahada says there is no G-d but Allah. ie, the G-d of the Jews and Christ, the Son of G-d, are false G-ds. The OM netted a convert.

What matters now is that this Catholic couple heal their marriage and return Christ into their lives. Which we can pray will happen.

Having grown up in half Muslim ( arabic mothers side) half catholic (Italian fathers side) family I can tell you that neither man or woman in the Muslim faith are permitted to marry outside of their religion. My father had to convert (although it was only for show not real beliefs on his side) to Islam in order for my grandfather to permit him to marry my mother.

Islam beleifs are based on the fact that as each religion developed (first judaism then Christianity then Islam) it improved therefore you can go forwards but not backwards, a Muslim can't convert to anything, a Jewish person can convert to Islam or Christianity and a Christian can convert to Islam but not become Jewish.

Muslim faith is also very against affairs and in extreme Muslim countries is punishable by death. Your wife's sahada will never be accepted by any real Muslim because it took place out of sin.

I know there is wide knowledge that a Muslim man is permitted to marry up to 4 women but very few people are aware that a man cannot take on a second third or 4th wife without the written agreement and knowledge of the first, second or third wife. My aunts husband took on a second wife without her knowledge she reported him to the authorities, he was jailed and his second marriage annulled.

I chose to be Christian but that's not because the Muslim faith is bad, it just wasn't right or me.

Like any other major religion there are misinterpretations and people who will twist the faiths principals to suit their purpose but Islam has a particularly bad wrap.

I am not against Islam I am against anyone who converts to any religion because their affair partner was into it. I don't understand how you can not be triggered negatively by your wife's new faith and why you are not making it a condition of recovery that she cuts any links to her A including this faith.

my post got lost not retyping it

This is the point. As I stated previously, a fundamentally misguided discussion about aspects of the OM's religious practice is nothing but detracting from the stated goals of this poster.

Christ can't be in their lives in the way that it is wished because her new religion does not, to my knowledge, recognize him as the son of god. It's not compatible.

I am simply worried about clashes of this sort being a major source of LB in future.

I am not arguing about what they do or don't do religiously, karma. It is up to the OP and his (F)WW to determine the logistics of religious reconciliation in their marriage. I am merely pointing out that it is completely unnecessary to denigrate and erroneously attribute religious sanction to an OM's (= an adulterer's!) actions in light of the attempted reconciliation between the OP and his (F)WW. Such speculation about the OM's religious inclinations has nothing to do w/ helping the OP or his (F)WW get their marriage back on track.

I've been mulling over this situation for a few days and I think it boils own to these debate nugget(s):

1 - Are there some things that a BH can realistically demand that a returning WW discard from her life, as tainted by its association with WW's life with POSOM?

The answer obviously is YES. Any jewelry POSOM gave to WW must be discarded by WW at BH's demand. Clothing? Yes. Virtually any material item would be subject to BH's demand for elimination.

2 - Are there some things acquired by WW via her association withe POSOM that cannot realistically be ordered discarded by BH, in effect being so tightly linked to WW that accepting her return means accepting those items as well? WW and the item in question would in practical application be a "package deal" - both, or neither.

Again the answer would have to be YES, with the OC being the perfect example. I cannot think of an environment in which a BH could accept the WW back, on the condition she give up her infant, and the WW would chose to accede.

So the question before us (or me anyway) is that of deciding on a method of "sorting what might be encountered. And yes, some of these things are fantastic, but the way to understand reality is to consider extremes, even unto fantasy.

So where do these fit? Would it be feasible that a BH demand, and WW agree to, their elimination, removal, rejection or declining?

- WW returns with a new tattoo, a butterfly on her hip
- WW returns with a new tattoo, POSOM's initials on her breast
- WW returns with a new tattoo, "POSOM has the world's best tool!", on her forearm
- WW returns with a new kidney, paid for by POSOM's money/insurance
- WW returns with a new kidney, donated by POSOM
- WW returns with new dental work, paid for by POSOM
- WW returns with new dental work, including a diamond set in her tooth, paid for by POSOM
- WW returns with a drug/alcohol dependency, from living POSOM's easy lifestyle
- WW returns cured of a prior drug/alcohol dependency, from living POSOM's ascetic lifestyle
- WW returns, having completed a college degree funded by POSOM
- WW returns, having converted to POSOM's religion
- WW finds belief/comfort in POSOM's religion where she had no faith before
- WW returns, having rejected religion entirely while living with POSOM

As I said before, I don't have the answers to this set of questions, but thinking of these possibilities might lead someone to the overarching paradigm that seems so unclear now.

I had a long discussion with my wife last night. She agrees with NB28's assertion that her "Shahada" was invalid because of the adultery associated with it. She renounced her association with Islam and will no longer follow its prescribed practices, such as praying at the mosque, praying five times a day, and reading the Quaran.

She has trouble with the idea of the Holy Trinity, and says she always has. She believes in one god, the Father, and doesn't accept the divinity of Jesus.

She also rejects much of what she learned about Islam. And she has no desire to study the Quaran.

She will continue to pray, and she will attend Mass with us. I am not pressuring her in any way to do so. She even calls herself Catholic. But Catholics recite the Nicene Creed at Mass, which is an expressed belief in the Holy Trinity. This, of course, conflicts with her personal beliefs.

I can live with her nebulous status, and she can too. I will not pressure her into believing the concept of the Holy Trinity and the teachings of the Church, but I will use gentle persuasion when opportunities present themselves.

In the meantime, we continue to get better and better in our recovery.

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

Wonderful news.

By the way, the trinity concept is a difficult one and has to be accepted as a mystery, but as your wife has renounced the conversion out of Catholicism, your recovery is closer. Very happy for your family.

My 2 cents. the bible says if u have an unbelieving spouse, u need not say anything to them. Just live a christian life, the way God commands and it will be easy for her to come around. And they'll know we are christians by our love

There has been no specualtion about the OM, he is a muslim.

"unnecessary to denigrate and erroneously attribute religious sanction to an OM's "

Explain in English.

I've been mulling over this situation for a few days and I think it boils own to these debate nugget(s):

1 - Are there some things that a BH can realistically demand that a returning WW discard from her life, as tainted by its association with WW's life with POSOM?

The answer obviously is YES. Any jewelry POSOM gave to WW must be discarded by WW at BH's demand. Clothing? Yes. Virtually any material item would be subject to BH's demand for elimination.

2 - Are there some things acquired by WW via her association withe POSOM that cannot realistically be ordered discarded by BH, in effect being so tightly linked to WW that accepting her return means accepting those items as well? WW and the item in question would in practical application be a "package deal" - both, or neither.

Again the answer would have to be YES, with the OC being the perfect example. I cannot think of an environment in which a BH could accept the WW back, on the condition she give up her infant, and the WW would chose to accede.


There have been OC�s where the OM was black and the WW and BH were white and the WW gave up the OC for adoption. There was one story where the family already had 3 kids oldest one 12. OM did not want to support or see the OC and left the building. To keep the family intact the WW gave up the mixed OC to adoption because the BH could not accept the public embarrassment.


So the question before us (or me anyway) is that of deciding on a method of "sorting what might be encountered. And yes, some of these things are fantastic, but the way to understand reality is to consider extremes, even unto fantasy.

So where do these fit? Would it be feasible that a BH demand, and WW agree to, their elimination, removal, rejection or declining?

- WW returns with a new tattoo, a butterfly on her hip


Tattoo was never POJA, it must go, see a plastic surgeon


- WW returns with a new tattoo, POSOM's initials on her breast


Tattoo was never POJA it msut go, see a plastic surgeon


- WW returns with a new tattoo, "POSOM has the world's best tool!", on her forearm


Tattoo was never POJA, it must go, see a plastic surgeon


- WW returns with a new kidney, paid for by POSOM's money/insurance
- WW returns with a new kidney, donated by POSOM


Being price for a kidney transplant is $269,900 and if the BH does not have the money he can�t have her get rid of it. Though the BH can require his WW get up a job and take all the money she makes and sets it a side until she saves the $269,900 and have a new transplant done. The problem with that is the medical profession will not do such and an operation when WW�s new kidneys are still functioning well.

So though the BH can take that money $269,900 that WW saved since the start of recovery and pay the OM back.




- WW returns with new dental work, paid for by POSOM
- WW returns with new dental work, including a diamond set in her tooth, paid for by POSOM


WW can not have a root canal undone but she can get a job, save the money, give the money to her BH and have him pay the OM Back.


- WW returns with a drug/alcohol dependency, from living POSOM's easy lifestyle


Recovery will not happen unless WW agrees to rehab and IC.


- WW returns cured of a prior drug/alcohol dependency, from living POSOM's ascetic lifestyle


This is nothing that was given. It was a choice for WW to get sober. As in a choice by the WW to have an affair and a choice to end it.


- WW returns, having completed a college degree funded by POSOM


Good for WW improving. She can�t not unlearn her education. But as for everything else that the OM provided that can not physically be returned WW can get a job save he money, OM gets paid back. WW and BH not in debt to OM.


- WW returns, having converted to POSOM's religion


Unacceptable, WW wants to recover she has to renounce conversion for OM.


- WW finds belief/comfort in POSOM's religion where she had no faith before


Does not change anything. WW must renounce for recovery. A WW that can not see herself maintaining the OM religion is to rub and slap the OM religion in her BH�s face will never be remorseful enough for recovery to work. WW made change to make OM happy, she has no leg to stand on to not change back and make her BH happy.


- WW returns, having rejected religion entirely while living with POSOM


WW was the same religion as her BH before marrying and agreeing to marry and raise their children in that religion needs to support her family and encourage her children to follow the faith. WW did this for her OM, she has no leg to stand on that she can't do it for her BH.


As I said before, I don't have the answers to this set of questions, but thinking of these possibilities might lead someone to the overarching paradigm that seems so unclear now.

TR, you do realize that the LARGE sums of money you blithely expect WW to generate to repay POSOM are not going to be instantaneously (if EVER) available in any world but yours, right? So until the entire transplant/dental/college bill is paid off, WW is shunted off to a convent someplace? (Do they really pay that well in a convent?)

And, btw: you also chose to ignore that monies earned by a returned WW would otherwise be marital property, so in effect, you as the BH would be okay with paying your half of her earnings to POSOM? It seems odd to want to reimburse his outlays incurred while banging your WW during her period of infidelity.

But, if that were your path, you should follow it. Do we have any other thoughts?

TR, you do realize that the LARGE sums of money you blithely expect WW to generate to repay POSOM are not going to be instantaneously (if EVER) available in any world but yours, right? So until the entire transplant/dental/college bill is paid off, WW is shunted off to a convent someplace? (Do they really pay that well in a convent?)


I do not treat those large sums of money in an inconsequential manor.

WW will just have to work and set a side half of her income until the amount is paid off. Yes a 269,900 kidney transplant will take 26.99 years to pay off at $10,000 a year.

The point is all gifts must be returned to the OM. The WW can not take the kidney out and hand it back to the OM. Though if the WW could place the kidney back into the OM's hand (which her BH would have to do because the WW and OM must maintain NC) would not cancel the debt because the OM will not be able to go up to a hospital and sell it to the hospital for $1 let alone get the $269,900 back. Without that the debt/gift can never be returned.

As to your remarks about convents. Get real. How delusion are you? I never mentioned convents. Stop grasping at straws to try making a point that is not there.

WW starts recovery which has to include WW getting a job and commits to paying of her debt. Whether it takes 1 year or 30 years.
This is know as having a consequence of having an affair.


And, btw: you also chose to ignore that monies earned by a returned WW would otherwise be marital property, so in effect, you as the BH would be okay with paying your half of her earnings to POSOM? It seems odd to want to reimburse his outlays incurred while banging your WW during her period of infidelity.


I am surprised that you consider reimbursing the OM for his expenses while dating a WW and having the WW return all of the OM's gifts as one in the same.

Same as if WW left the home at bought a new car when she separated from a BH and left to live with the OM. The affair is over WW is in recovery. WW has to sell the car to get rid of the loan or the BH has to accept that $500 a month of WW salary is going to pay that loan for the next 5 years.

Yes the WW and BH family budget will hurt for 5 years. Again a consequence of the affair.

But, if that were your path, you should follow it. Do we have any other thoughts?

My "convent" citation was a form of ironic commentary, TR. I'll reduce my scheme of construction if you can't keep up, okay?

So, simply:

If the WW does not have whatever amount is required to repay POSOM at the time of her possible return, does the TR code allow for her return to the marriage "on spec"? If she falls behind on the payment schedule, does she get expelled? Does your proposal include increasing the payment to be repaid by "the time value of money" aka "interest"?

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You DO understand that sentences are constructed, don't you? That fact is supposedly learned in high school.

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