It's controlling because you're arguing here about what she s
"should" be doing in your opinion instead of addressing what you can do yourself.

Your wife is not here. Trying to argue with me about what she "should" or should not do is pointless. Unless of course the goal is to nourish and grow resentment in you against your wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:

Rules of engagement of my W:

1) Do not talk about our relationship. She has stated that she feels I try to talk about it way too much for her comfort level. She has said, "We talk about our R at MC." This is one hour once a week if we are lucky.

2) Do not talk or ask about SF or anything to do with physical touch. She has stated that she feels I am only after one thing and everything I do is aimed towards improving our physical R.

3) Do not say that I am wrong about anything or have done anything wrong. She has stated that she feels that anything she does is not good enough for me.

4) Do not try and convince her that my POV is more right than hers. As I have learned the hard way through many a post with you nice people, my W has ALWAYS reacted negatively when I do this.

5) I must "hear" what my W is saying. My W has stated that she feels that I do not hear what she is saying most of the time.


EL [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi EL, I gotta laugh at your rules.
Your W and my W must have been talking on the phone.

Fact is...
Live it bro, stop analyzing, stop talking about it, except at appropriate times like at MC. Now read this..... IT SOLVES ALL OF YOUR PROBLEMS.

Now read my post on LFC's man hater thread about making love.

Just some facts about my relationship now.

It is really really good. I went from near emotional breakdown to feeling more secure in my relationship than I ever have.

How you ask?

I finally started to live the changes I HAD MADE and slowly but surely she came around. You see our W's value action far more than words.

I suspect that you have committed to certain changes over the course of your marriage and then continually fallen down on your commitments. This breeds contempt for the spoken promise.

Listen to your wife bro, live it and I can literally promise that things will change. When they do please do not make the mistake I made by questioning the change. Accept the changes in her no matter how small.

Good Luck to you my friend.

Jeff

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for the positive comments. I know one of my own issues is putting time frames to things and it does get me into trouble once in a while, ok, all the time; but, I have started to feel a little down because I have been realizing that it has been 5 months since I have realized the "errors" of my ways and have really been trying to learn and change. I due know my W has tried in some cases to shange as well, though it feels to me as these are small changes (I know this may not be fair to my W and is why I state this is how I feel). I just feel frustrated looking back at where we were, and where we are. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can totally relate to that! Doesn’t it seem that time is funny sometimes? For instance, it’s almost Halloween all ready, yet to me I’m about ready for.. say Easter. On the other hand, it’s been 2 weeks since I’ve been in temporary housing and it feels like 10 years!

It just never happens fast enough, does it? Hang in there..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, questions, comments, reccomendations requested. Keep in mind I am seeing the MC solo tomorrow and will only be able to take into account any advice you can give me today. NO PRESSURE. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think tomorrow you should use the opportunity to ask for a few specific things:

1.) clarification on your homework assignment
2.) Express how very unhappy you are about the ‘signing love’ issue and request her support.
3.) Ask her for help in mediating a way to get your needs stated. Particularly on the issues of SF and physical affection in a non-threatening way.
4.) Ask her to encourage your wife to encourage you.

Use this MC session to say what you want to get out of this marriage counseling because your wife is not there so you can be very frank. Ask her to help you find ways to communicate your needs in a loving and respectful way. Rebuilding your marriage also involves you having YOUR needs met at some point. Be clear that you don’t expect everything tomorrow but it should be time to be able to talk about those issues.

The rest of the issues sound like you’re making progress in the way you’re handling things. Being able to avoid those explosive conversations is HUGE and isn’t such a small change, after all, is it? Be proud of what you’re doing and practice, practice, practice. Take this time to focus on other things… don’t let all your other relationships fall by the wayside, either. Maintaining healthy outside friendships is SUPPORTIVE to your marriage. As long as you’re meeting your 15 hours per week of quality time together, you don’t have to be so antsy about loosing ‘an opportunity’ to be with your wife.

Seriously, it sounds like you’re on a good path to improvement. Why, I haven’t had to whack you with the 2X4 in at least a couple of days! And, you got the chocolate question right! *nudge* It just takes time, EL.

Mys

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it was kind of a mixed bag. By saying that "I am not controlling you" you are (maybe) directly contradicting her feelings.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess. Is it not worth a little shock value to her system because she feels I have been controlling, to actually stated I am not controlling? I don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> .e. the sunglasses. If I put myself in your wife's shoes and you said that you weren't "letting me" get them, it was our money i would probably think (yeah...well..you were sure into NOT letting me get them in your strong response that I shouldn't get them) I see her as trying to be kind and appreciative, but she is working out of that first exchange when she says you "let" her. Does that make sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I see your point. What about allowing for the potential of someone to change? You do make sense. I would really have felt bad just accepting what she said and saying, "your welcome." This is because I realized how I could be percieved as controlling before and wanted to show her that I saw it and am against how I was. I know you know what I mean. I am just not skilled enough yet at getting it across in the best way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i.e. the phone. She was dissapointed, maybe, with your suggestion to postpone the phone pick-up because she was excited to get the phone. Once she gave her reason for why she wanted to do it her way (excitement) you could latch on to it and support her way for her reasons..
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. This is what I did. I accepted her POV, stated how I felt and re-affirmed she could choose what she wanted because she is her own person. She choose to go get the phone instead of 10 minutes later. I went with our S and let him play for 10 minutes. However, I do have lingering feelings about doing something nice for yourself over your S. Our S was so patient the whole day and it is very hard for a four year old. Taking 10 minutes out of our day is not a lot to do to reward our S. This is where I was coming from (not that it really mattered). I do not even know why it was important for me to explain this, but whatever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see what I'm trying to say here? These are just ideas with the example you gave. I think it is fine to have a different opinion, but it maybe isn't best to try and convince your wife that she can freely chose either when maybe she doesn't feel it is that easy. it would be better to make a statement after that either gives a good reason for your way (that values her at the same time) or go with her way. Propose a compromise that is in the spirit of what she proposed but incorperates your needs to.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I see what you mean.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> good luck this week. Play it cool. When your brain gets going - stop and think "what's the nicest/most innocent intention i can ascribe to my W's actions" and act based on that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for this advice.

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's controlling because you're arguing here about what she s
"should" be doing in your opinion instead of addressing what you can do yourself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. Maybe I should have said that I felt hurt because she does not recognize positive changes and improvments. How would you recomend I change myself on this? You recomended that I ask for recognition. However, if I have to ask for it everytime, how is my W participating? I am not trying to be rude here. I am just trying to understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your wife is not here. Trying to argue with me about what she "should" or should not do is pointless. Unless of course the goal is to nourish and grow resentment in you against your wife.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not interested in growing resentment against my W. I am interested in hearing people's POVs. I am also interested in understanding what people sometimes think about what I am thinking. All of my interest is driven with the goal of trying to understand things better. Lets face it, if I had all the skills to do everything right, I would not need to be here.

Infinitehope -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hi EL, I gotta laugh at your rules.
Your W and my W must have been talking on the phone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its sad, not funny.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fact is...
Live it bro, stop analyzing, stop talking about it, except at appropriate times like at MC. Now read this..... IT SOLVES ALL OF YOUR PROBLEMS.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read what? Stop talking about it? I need for her to tell me when things bother he. Being left to guess causes me to fill in blanks, which I am told is bad. Not expressing ourselves to each other when we are upset or hurt or mad is wrong based upon MB and "radical honesty." Its not like I really am talking about it all the time. I probably mention something 2 - 3 times a week. Why is it so bad to try to talk about our M 2 - 3 times a week? The thing is, if I actually felt like my W was open to discussing the M more, I probably would not be trying to discuss things 2 - 3 times a week. Its like the SF thing. If my W actually got on board with fullfilling my biggest EN, I probably would not need it as much as I think I do right now. It is the ironic thing to desire things you do not have, but not need them as much when you have them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now read my post on LFC's man hater thread about making love.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had read this and I agreed with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is really really good. I went from near emotional breakdown to feeling more secure in my relationship than I ever have.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wonderful. I am very happy for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How you ask?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I finally started to live the changes I HAD MADE and slowly but surely she came around. You see our W's value action far more than words. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats fine. I am eating, sleeping, breathing these changes. This is not to say I have it 100% correct yet, but I am living these. I am a person that needs communication from my spouse. I hate silence and being left to fill in blanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suspect that you have committed to certain changes over the course of your marriage and then continually fallen down on your commitments. This breeds contempt for the spoken promise.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will accept this as plausible, though I truly can only think of a few things that would fall into this catagory.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Listen to your wife bro, live it and I can literally promise that things will change. When they do please do not make the mistake I made by questioning the change. Accept the changes in her no matter how small.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you mean "question the change?" Can you give an example or two so I can understand where you are coming from?

Thanks,

EL

Hello Myschae,

Your post made me smile. Thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It just never happens fast enough, does it? Hang in there..
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are so right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I think tomorrow you should use the opportunity to ask for a few specific things:

1.) clarification on your homework assignment
2.) Express how very unhappy you are about the ‘signing love’ issue and request her support.
3.) Ask her for help in mediating a way to get your needs stated. Particularly on the issues of SF and physical affection in a non-threatening way.
4.) Ask her to encourage your wife to encourage you.

Use this MC session to say what you want to get out of this marriage counseling because your wife is not there so you can be very frank. Ask her to help you find ways to communicate your needs in a loving and respectful way. Rebuilding your marriage also involves you having YOUR needs met at some point. Be clear that you don’t expect everything tomorrow but it should be time to be able to talk about those issues. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are right. I also should bring up what my W feels about my "letting go" of the issues with my mom. I should also bring up continuing to work on the trust issues I have. The unfortunate thing, and it happens every time, is that I arrive prepared with what I would like to do, talk about or work on and I get led into being bogged down on only one of the topics. I am left with trying to do a quick summary at the end of the session trying to get in the final items I needed the MC to hear. You know how that goes, those items never get talked about because it is the end of the session, and then I am left wondering why she writes everything down because I have not seen her bring anything back from past notes she has apparently taken.

The few times I went through everything on my list before the hour was up, she said, "OK, I understand. Where do you want to start?" I do not know the answer to this. I was expecting that with her proffesional background, she would be telling me where and how to start.

You have listed all very important items that I have been considering talking about tomorrow. I know the MC will hear them. I am just uncertain, how they will get addressed by her. Since I had about 7 sessions with this MC by myself in the beginning and then about 8 sessions with her and my W, this is the first time since my W started coming that I will probably get the MC's blunt opinion about our M and potential recovery. I am scared to hear the MC say something like, "I do not think your M is recoverable and I suggest the two of you move with your lives."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The rest of the issues sound like you’re making progress in the way you’re handling things. Being able to avoid those explosive conversations is HUGE and isn’t such a small change, after all, is it? Be proud of what you’re doing and practice, practice, practice. Take this time to focus on other things… don’t let all your other relationships fall by the wayside, either. Maintaining healthy outside friendships is SUPPORTIVE to your marriage. As long as you’re meeting your 15 hours per week of quality time together, you don’t have to be so antsy about loosing ‘an opportunity’ to be with your wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats the problem. We do not get 15 hours per week by ourselves. Its with our S or my W is not feeling well, which has been the case more and more over the years. I honestly cannot remember a night that she went to bed without a physical complaint such as a headache, neck pain, back pain, shoulder pain, pinched muscle, so tired her body aches, a cold, freezing, nausea etc.. I actually said to her this weekend, "Honey, I cannot wait to see you have a full week that you do not feel sick, sore or hurt." My W also cannot sleep through the night. She has not been able to since our S was born. Now she has accidentally trained her body to wakeup in the middle of the night for Oreos or whatever. She does not see anything wrong with this, but is always tired. I have tried to talk to her about retraining her body to not wakeup.. Force herself to stay in bed when she wakes up. Do not eat in the middle of the night etc... She shrugs these ideas off. I wish she could have full night sleeps again and feel well all the time. It must be a miserable way to live and I am sure it does not help our situation either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seriously, it sounds like you’re on a good path to improvement. Why, I haven’t had to whack you with the 2X4 in at least a couple of days! And, you got the chocolate question right! *nudge* It just takes time, EL.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aw, you're just being nice because you know I am all bruised up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks for saying this. The chocolate question was pretty much a no brainer. I know... I know.. Thanks for the reassurence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

EL

EL --

Had to drop in for sec... Just wanted to give you a thumbs up. Looks like you're going to have t "cruise" for now, and rack up a few months of "good behaviour." I know, you feel like you've had 5. From what I've seen in posts, though, you've only had about 1.5 weeks that weren't marked by huge blowups which were going to make your W feel like things hadn't changed.

But, anyway... Keep up the good fight.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your post made me smile. Thank you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re welcome. I’m so glad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, you are right. I also should bring up what my W feels about my "letting go" of the issues with my mom. I should also bring up continuing to work on the trust issues I have. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good, good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The unfortunate thing, and it happens every time, is that I arrive prepared with what I would like to do, talk about or work on and I get led into being bogged down on only one of the topics. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I know. Write a list and the operative phrase is going to be I have a lot of things I want to cover today, so can I do a quick over view description of what I want to say and I’d appreciate it if you would just ask questions enough to clarify or explain and then move quickly on. We can discuss these more in depth if we get through everything. Does that sound like a fair plan to you?

Then, off you go. Give her a synopsis of you list. Stop at each item and ask if she has questions or needs clarification. Then MOVE ON and come back later. Try to keep your list to no more than 5-6 items (heh.. I gave you 4 all ready).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am scared to hear the MC say something like, "I do not think your M is recoverable and I suggest the two of you move with your lives." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I seriously doubt you’ll hear that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The few times I went through everything on my list before the hour was up, she said, "OK, I understand. Where do you want to start?" I do not know the answer to this. I was expecting that with her proffesional background, she would be telling me where and how to start. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Start with the most important one on the list. Prioritize them before you go in there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thats the problem.
<snip>
It must be a miserable way to live and I am sure it does not help our situation either. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh ugh. Being sick and tired all the time is exhausting. I do hope that comes under control for her. That definitely WOULD impact my ability (long term) to work on the relationship. Heck, one of the main reasons my H and I are staying away from relationship issues for the short term is we’re in temp housing and not in a comfy bed. Being tired and irritable doesn’t help at all!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Aw, you're just being nice because you know I am all bruised up. Thanks for saying this. The chocolate question was pretty much a no brainer. I know... I know.. Thanks for the reassurence. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. But, had I asked the chocolate question a month ago, would you have answered it right? Mmmmm? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Actually, it really was meant as a joke. I hope it made you smile.

Mys

Hey CTJ,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Had to drop in for sec... Just wanted to give you a thumbs up. Looks like you're going to have t "cruise" for now, and rack up a few months of "good behaviour." I know, you feel like you've had 5. From what I've seen in posts, though, you've only had about 1.5 weeks that weren't marked by huge blowups which were going to make your W feel like things hadn't changed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny you should say that. I am hoping that we can maintain our present course with not having big blow outs. I am concerned that our new found behavior will be extremely tested as we start moving into working on less comfortable things for my W. So far, her job has been to sit there and evaluate my changes. She has gotten to react however she felt and does still do LBs and DJs (not saying I am perfect or anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). I believe her real desire to stay in the M will become more evident as things may become a little uncomfortable for her, such as moving towards a physical R. I am not suggesting she do anything that is uncomfortable for her, but lets get real, in the beginning, anything is going to be a little uncomfortable as we get started. Do you know what I am meaning here because I am sure I am not writing it in the best way? I cannot shake this concern in the back of my mind as to how she is going to react towards being prompted by the MC to move forward in any area of improving the physical side of things (be it hand holding or whatever). I wonder how we are suppose to determine when this time is. Here are some thoughts:

1) Is it determined by when my W feels ready? Obviously she should not do anything she is not ready to do. However, we all know and understand that it is not very likely that she will make the first move on any front regarding anything physical.

2) Is it when I think we are ready? H***, this is by no means an accurate measuring stick as I have I think we are ready a lot of the time. Yes, I have learned from this site, that I am wrong on many levels with that thinking.

3) Is it when the MC feels we are ready? This is tricky because the MC, seeing us only 1 hour every week or two would definitely error on the side of conservativeness here. Therefore, indirectly, relying on the MC would naturally take longer than it probably has to.

So you see, the only three gauges I have to go by are all flawed. I cannot discuss this with my W right now because it is still a hot button with her. I am assuming that as she feels comfortable that we do not have any circular arguments for a while, she may be able to make a mental judgment call down the road that it may be OK to discuss "things" because she may have built some confidence in our abilities to not blow up. I know we are not there yet.

I do not know, what do you think LFC? How would you like to take things if you were in my W's situation? I know it is a little different than your situation. If you were actually open in your mind to eventually improve/have a physical relationship with your H again and you were at the beginning of a point where you started to have positive conversations about other things, what type of "road map" would you lay out and find acceptable to allow yourself to go back to a physical relationship? What would be some key things that made you feel ready to even discuss the prospects of something like this with your H?

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3) Is it when the MC feels we are ready? This is tricky because the MC, seeing us only 1 hour every week or two would definitely error on the side of conservativeness here. Therefore, indirectly, relying on the MC would naturally take longer than it probably has to</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't resist your thread. ;-D

This is your best option, because it's sooner than your W, and it obviously won't work until it comes from someone other than you.

Here's the good news:

You have the MC involved so there is someone other than yourself who can put the pressure on your W to make the changes she needs to make. That means that you can be the good guy and not bring these things up with her. (Noone likes their spouse to be their critic.)

Myschae, Myschae, Myschae,

Why is it, when you and I write back and forth, I seem to gain clarity and get an idea of what I am supposed to do. Then the minute I am away from this site, I loose my thoughts? Normally, I must retain tons of information and be able to use it at will for my job, however, when it comes to my M, I feel like I am mentally handicap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Start with the most important one on the list. Prioritize them before you go in there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, looking back on ALL of your great suggestions, I realize that a number of them can be handled in the same session if I keep the MC on topic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Your four, which I like very much, are things I am asking the MC for when dealing with my W. The two I brought up are about me and dealing with my own issues that have nothing to really do with my W. Therefore, I actually only have 2 topics to work on with the MC and four requests of the MC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I seriously doubt you’ll hear that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? I hope you are right. I have heard this twice before in two different relationships with two different counselors. Because of my analytical way of thinking, it is easy to discount the first one, as the C was bad or my partner was seriously screwed up. Even the second time in my first M, a different MC recomended this. My first W was seeing someone else etc.. Both times shocked me and disgusted me with MC as a whole. Now I am on my second M and in MC again for the third try in the same M. Again, using my analytical mind, the need for MC in three relationships and the drastic point at which these R's have gotten can lead me to only one logical conclusion - me. I am the only consistent factor in the entire equation. This is how/why I was able to take a deeper look into reality (instead of my own POV) and see I was hurting my W emotionally with my trust issues. Something this current MC said to me in one of our private sessions before my W started coming, was, you need to figure out how far you are willing to go before you have had enough. This is why I am a little scared at what she might say tomorrow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh ugh. Being sick and tired all the time is exhausting. I do hope that comes under control for her. That definitely WOULD impact my ability (long term) to work on the relationship. Heck, one of the main reasons my H and I are staying away from relationship issues for the short term is we’re in temp housing and not in a comfy bed. Being tired and irritable doesn’t help at all!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, this is why we went to all those specialists in the beginning of our issues. We both knew and accepted that we would not be able to improve our M without first having my W not be in physical pain. Let me give you a more detailed run down so you understand better:

During child birth, my W broke her tail bone. It was pretty traumatic and painful. After a couple months, we tried to get back into SF, but she was concerned that it would not be the same or feel the same for me. She also was affraid of getting pregnant again. As her desire tailored off, probably helped from breast feeding and post pardem depression for the first 1.5 years of our S, along with the negative things I now see I was doing, my W felt lost as to why she no longer desired a physical relationship. We went to a couple of special trips to her Gyno. After blood work ups they felt her levels on things like testosterone and things seemed normal, although they did not have any values from her to compare from before the birth.

With no answers from the gyno, we waited a couple of months and things did not get better. We tried our first MC. This MC lost my W's faith in the first session when she told my W to just give into her H once in a while. After another couple of months, we ended up going to an endocronologist. This endo did all sorts of tests and did not find anything substantial to explain her loss in desire. The endo felt my W was depressed and started her on some anti-depressants. After a couple of visits to the endo, and my W mentioning some bladder issues, the endo sent her to a urologist. The urologist found a bladder infection and that her bladder did not have the capacity it used to. The urologist suggested surgery. My W underwent a procedure to expand her bladder. This turned out to be painful for her. However, it did help her bladder pain in the long run. Meanwhile, we maintained going to the endo, and he maintained trying different anti-depressants. Since these did not seem to be doing much for my W, the endo suggested a psychiatrist to monitor my W's drugs because the endo felt it would be better for my W. We went to the group that the endo recomended, except to get in to see a psychiatrist at this place took 6 months, they put us onto a counselor there and offered visits every 1.5 months. This ended up being way to sparse for visit. My W eventually ended up getting in to see a pyschologist, but by this time she had enough with anti-depressants. She will not ever use them again. The counselor did not help much because we did not see her enough and so my W got a second bad taste from counseling.

Around this time my W decided to see a chiropractor because she had back and neck pains as well as constant headaches. She has been seeing the chiropractor for almost 2 years now. The headaches had went away and she does physically feel better from this.

We went a year with no counseling and just the chiropractor. By the end of this year (April this year) I could not take it anymore. Something had to change somehow. For the year, I had totally given up talking about SF and hope the "no pressure" concept would give my W the space she needed to feel better about us.

Throughout all of this time, I spent many hours on the internet trying to find answers here. It was not until April this year, when I found MB that things started to make more sense and I began to see the contributions I was making to our spiralling M. You guys pretty much know the last 5 months. So there you go. Now you have more background.


Take Care,

EL

Hmm, I think you both need to be addressing your wife's medical condition.

But absolutely NOT from a perspectifve of she's "broken" and needs to be fixed. You know that all too well.

But from the perspective that modern medical science should be able to deliver more for her on some of these issues, and it's worth checking into some more options or trying different practitioners.

One thing I learned from my own experience and from some good teachers: chiropractic can be a wonderful thing, but by itself it is rarely adequate.

Chiropractic care can do wonders for relieving tension and relaxing tightened tissues. In most cases, however, what is needed is a dual program of both stretching what needs to be stretched and strengthening what needs to be strengthened. Doing one or the other may bring short-term relief but tends to build a long-term problem because muscle systems are not maintained in balance.

It sounds very likely that your wife could benefit hugely by combining physical therapy with a specialist in her problem areas with her current chiropractic care. The physical therapist would train her in strengthening exercises that would balance the loosening up she gets from the chiroprator.

In time, she might be able to learn a balanced program of strengthening and stretching exercises such that she no longer needs professional help, either from the physical therapist or from the chiropractor.

It should be understood that this is very likely a long-term project though, on the scale of 6 months to 2 years. And those initial physical therapy sessions can be horribly draining even when they feel good, and she's going to needs lots of TLC to get through it.

On another note, when I got home on Friday after work, I mentioned to my W "I was very happy how we were able to have a positive conversation the night before. I was happy how we came close to the brink of a typical argument between us and then we stopped it before it got out of hand and were able to talk about other things and not go to bed mad at each other." My W said, "Oh." After a small period of silence I said, "What are your thoughts or feelings about our conversation last night?" She said, "I don't have any because that is how conversations are supposed to go."

Your wife continues to drop these little pearls of wisdom in your lap, yet you let them gnaw at you.


quote:
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Fact is...
Live it bro, stop analyzing, stop talking about it, except at appropriate times like at MC. Now read this..... IT SOLVES ALL OF YOUR PROBLEMS.

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Read what? Stop talking about it? I need for her to tell me when things bother he. Being left to guess causes me to fill in blanks, which I am told is bad. Not expressing ourselves to each other when we are upset or hurt or mad is wrong based upon MB and "radical honesty."

You continue to get excellent advice, yet choose to ignore it or filter what you get to fit your model of the world. One fact about the marriage counseling business. It is successful less than 20% of the time. Not a good track record for any industry. Their is however a good scientifically based book by Gottman about how successful couples actually work. Difference is that they actually measure results.

Your wife isn't going to accept your changes unless it comes naturally from the heart. You are forcing everything, constantly seeking validation and reassurance. (Stupid sports analogy insert here.) I play golf and I believe you are familiar with the game. Sometimes the ball takes unexpected or unlucky bounces. That's golf. One thing you know about golf, it is impossible to hit the ball with a bazzilion thoughts in your head. Best to have only one swing thought, relax and let it rip. The more relaxed and in control of your emotions, the lower your scores. Make it simple.

Good luck at the wedding. I hope you give your wife a wide, wide berth.

Also, you are right and know you're right. If your wife was really committed to improving the marriage then withholding SF until she feels comfortable with the changes, etc. rings shallow and false. How convenient that she feels that every physical interaction would lead to sex in your mind. Especially after god knows how long.

DUH! Your a dude right? Afterall, do you have to be perfect for her to consider sex? Bull! What is she putting into this effort?

I know I have been getting up in your kitchen, but after 650 mind numbing posts about intricate details over analyzing harmless conversations, I feel you have all the solutions you need. I mean what difference could it possibly make if she picks up a phone now or in 15 minutes? Let it go! You said it yourself to myschae. You can't remember all of the information you got.

Lost the forest overanalzying the trees.

One swing thought, relax, and rip it down the middle. Just let it happen.

Oh and by the way, their is a movie coming out this fall with Natalie Portman and Julia Roberts among others that may change your thinking about "radical honesty."

Hey guys,

Well, I had the MC session today. It was interesting. I got the points across to the MC. Thanks for all the help Myschae! The MC said that a lot of the issues are based upon my own insecurities. She said, she thinks I do not know what an emotional relationship is like because I never had one. She asked if I had my choice between a wonderful emotional relationship or a wonderful physical relationship with my W over the next 50 years, what would I pick. I struggled with this question and felt that both needed to be there for a relationship to be good for me. She pushed me further and said to choose one because it is a hypathetical question. I explained that I felt if I said a physical relationship I would be thinking more "short" term and if I said an emotional relationship I would be thinking more "long" term.

Going through the points we discussed yesterday, the MC had this to say:

1) Understanding her homework assignment: She said, her whole purpose was to remove any control out of things and have each of us let the other know when we are being hurt by one another.

2) With regards to signing "Love" and boundary issues: She felt that boundary issues needed to be clear and stated up front. She did not say anything when I said I was unhappy leaving her office feeling like a boundary of mine was disregarded. I left and did not have an understanding. She said, this was her removing control out of things for my W. She said, if your W signs "love" 100 times per month and you let her know that it hurts you when she does this, but you do not demand she stops, your W can do one of two things. She can ignore your hurt and keep signing like she has, which tells you something, or she could slow down the frequency of the action that hurts you, which should make you feel good.

3) Helping to mediate a way to get my needs stated to my W in an unthreatening way. Here we had a couple examples I gave her as to where I felt we are at right now. She said, your W may be moving closer to you and then you bring up the subject of a physical R and she pulls back or away. You have to let her come to you. On your W's side she should be keeping you updated and she currently does not give you any information. You need to ask her to do this. I told her I have and get refused or no answer or into an undesired argument. The MC said to ask her in MC and then the MC will help.

4) Asking MC to encourage W to encourage me: The MC said, again this is something I should ask her for. The MC said I could bring it up in MC when my W is there.

5) Relationship with my mom: The MC said that I should be careful here. She said that when her and I discussed all of these things in the beginning, she was under the impression that my M was more important than my issues with my mom and if I can seperate the two, we should work on the M first. I agree with the MC. However, since my W is averse to even discussing relationship things, and she brought my working on my issues with my mom as something she felt would help us, I felt we could not ignore the signifigance. The MC said, you need to make sure you are not taking ownership of your W's issue. Because your W brought it up, by your holding onto it and trying to "own" it, exhibits a form of control. She said you need to get more information from your W as to what she is meaning and how she feels about specifics she is talking about.

6) My own trust issues: We both agreed that this is something I need to continually work on and will have a positive impact on my M.

I must say, that in the last 24 hours, I have felt more emotionally close to my W than I have in a long time. Its in the little things she has done in this time (like smiling at me or seeming interested when she talks to me). I do believe that some of this is a result from how we have interacted over the last two weeks. I do need to thank you guys for the positive suggestions you gave me.

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hmm, I think you both need to be addressing your wife's medical condition.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, you will not get an argument from me on this subject. I fully agree with you. We have been trying. The problem is that it never seems to be just one thing. It is always something small, but annoying and totally unrelated to the day before. Do you know what I mean? Like she will have a headache one night, then the next day I get home from work and she tells me her left shoulder is bothering her all day/night, then the next day she will feel congested. Its not one thing that we can really nail down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It should be understood that this is very likely a long-term project though, on the scale of 6 months to 2 years. And those initial physical therapy sessions can be horribly draining even when they feel good, and she's going to needs lots of TLC to get through it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understood. Thanks.

Managing2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your wife continues to drop these little pearls of wisdom in your lap, yet you let them gnaw at you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not fair, nor does the MC agree with you. My W's comment actually showed the MC that my W needs to communicate and encourage me better than she has been.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You continue to get excellent advice, yet choose to ignore it or filter what you get to fit your model of the world. One fact about the marriage counseling business. It is successful less than 20% of the time. Not a good track record for any industry. Their is however a good scientifically based book by Gottman about how successful couples actually work. Difference is that they actually measure results.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not ignoring the excellent advice I am being given by people. I am trying to understand it at times. I may disagree with some things and ask questions or even challenge some things. This by no stretch means I am ignoring it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your wife isn't going to accept your changes unless it comes naturally from the heart. You are forcing everything, constantly seeking validation and reassurance. (Stupid sports analogy insert here.) I play golf and I believe you are familiar with the game. Sometimes the ball takes unexpected or unlucky bounces. That's golf. One thing you know about golf, it is impossible to hit the ball with a bazzilion thoughts in your head. Best to have only one swing thought, relax and let it rip. The more relaxed and in control of your emotions, the lower your scores. Make it simple.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish it was this easy. Then nobody would need this board. Even MB explains how changing habits is going to feel uncomfortable for a while and "seem like it is not from the heart." Eventually these behaviors will become habits and will not feel as awkward.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good luck at the wedding. I hope you give your wife a wide, wide berth.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you. I am going to try.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, you are right and know you're right. If your wife was really committed to improving the marriage then withholding SF until she feels comfortable with the changes, etc. rings shallow and false. How convenient that she feels that every physical interaction would lead to sex in your mind. Especially after god knows how long.

DUH! Your a dude right? Afterall, do you have to be perfect for her to consider sex? Bull! What is she putting into this effort?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is one of the things I am trying to understand. I try to gain understanding, first from my W, then from MC and this board. The unique thing about this board is that there are some wonderful people here and some of them actually have pretty close POVs to my W's. This is nice because I can try and understand things better in a back and forth with the nice people here. This has been a tremendous help to me so far.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know I have been getting up in your kitchen, but after 650 mind numbing posts about intricate details over analyzing harmless conversations, I feel you have all the solutions you need. I mean what difference could it possibly make if she picks up a phone now or in 15 minutes? Let it go! You said it yourself to myschae. You can't remember all of the information you got.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am truly sorry that my thread appears to irritate you. This was not my intent. I do not feel that "650 mind numbing posts about intricate details over analyzing harmless conversations" is a nice or fair thing to write. First, the posts are emotionally charged for me (you remember, the guy that started the post!!!!!). Second, I am currently in a position where my World is turned upside down and do not currently have the grace of clarity that you feel you have. Third, I atleast realize some of my issues and am willing to consider and be open to other's opinions as to how my own actions are effecting MY M. Fourth, through my trying to be very specific and accurate (though mineownself questions me at times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I feel I can get a more accurate response from the nice people at this board. Fifth, the responses I have gotten have helped me to get where I am today in my M, which is a lot further than I was 5 months ago. Six, My M is the most important thing in my life and because this thread has helped me, I am going to continue to use it.

Thanks for your thoughts,

EL

Hey EL,

I know it seems like they are all unrelated, but all the symtoms I've seen you post about lately that your wife has are all very likely to be related to whatever is going on with her back and the connected areas.

Her shoulder hurting -- that's an easy one.

Headaches -- yup. Muscles misaligned or unbalanced can definitely do this. Bad ones. The stuff of nightmares.

Even the congestion. I kid you not, people thought I was starting to develop allergies. Turned out I had developed a funny sort of neck tension. I got that straightened out and whammo, congestion symptoms immediately and magically gone. I know this sounds weird to someone who hasn't experienced it, but it makes total sense to me since I have -- if I crimp my neck into that same position, I feel congested again.

Part of the problem in getting this evaluated is a medical doctor simply doesn't have the expertise in figuring out these soft tissue problems that a good physical therapist does. I learned through experience that with any kind of muscle or soft tissue problem or injury, it's a good idea to ask for a referral to physical therapy. Some doctors don't always suggest it because people don't want to deal with the extra appointments. But a good physical therapist can teach the patient a lot more about dealing with whatever soft tissue issue they have than a doctor can.

For example, a couple of years back I sprained an ankle. The doctor poked and prodded and said, yup, muscle X is sprained. Offered basic advice on care and sent me to physical therapy. Physical therapist told me:

1. what neighboring muscles would experience while the injured one was healing and how to deal with that

2. analyzed a bad habit that made a sprain more likely to happen and taught me how to correct it

3. showed me in detail how to care for the ankle from week to week and how to get the best possible recovery for it

4. explained in detail how an ankle functions and what the significance of that particular muscle was

5. explained how my other foot and leg would be taking unusual strain because of favoring the injured side, and explained how to take care of the strong leg so that it wouldn't develop problems as a result of being leaned on a lot

You just don't get all this from a doctor, except from the occasional sports medicine doctor. Most doctors just don't have the training for dealing with injuries or chronic problems on this level.

Hello Mineownself,

That sounds encouraging. The trouble is, you go into a doctor's office and tell them the symptoms I mentioned and the believe it is all unrelated. So they treat the individual symptom and never really solve the problem. We did not know who to turn to. After my W went to a chiropractor (I am not a big believer in chiropracters), she started to feel better and "buy into" chiropractors. As I believe that the mind can do wonderful things for healing one's self, I supported my W going to the chiropractor because she believed it was helping her. I also admit that she does seem to feel better having gone to a chiropractor.

The only concern I have is that my W is a young 30 year old woman and her aches and issues make her act like she is elderly at times. I feel very bad for her because I think she is missing out on a lot life has to offer because of "small" aches and pains that are consistently around. I would not know where to begin. I guess we should make an appointment for a physical therapist and just tell them her issues. I think even my W believes her issues are all independent of each other.

My other big hope for my W is that she gets back to having a full nights sleep. I wish there was some way to help her sleep through the night. She has tried sleeping pills in the past and all they do is knock her out for 3-4 hours and then she is wide awake for 2-3 hours. They actually make things worse. I am convinced that part of the reason my W is more edgey these days is the last four years having slept through the night maybe 7 times.

Thanks for the great advice, I'll look into it.

EL

Oh wow, I know what you mean. For a bit in my mid-20's (and I still looked like a teenage kid) I was effectively much older because of all my aches and pains from a whiplash injury.

It took years to get better. But I am a whole lot better and it was so worth the effort. People who knew me then still get startled sometimes because they got used to me being fragile so that now it kind of throws them to see me hefting heavy objects around or the like.

It's really hard for someone in your wife's state to tackle the extra work of physical therapy, even though it will probably start gradually and not be much work at first. But she's already overwhelmed and feels like life is more than she can physically handle.

Try to find a physical therapist who has experience in long-term or chronic problems. They need to be handled a bit differently than a new injury.

Also encourage your wife to understand that she should feel comfortable with the physical therapist and it's normal to switch if she isn't.

I don't know if this is an issue, but one of the things I had to be educated out of was the "no pain no gain" mentality. My physical therapist had to drill it into me over and over that if something hurts, DON'T DO IT, no matter the reason, no matter if it hurts only a little, no matter if exercise is "supposed" to hurt, or whatever. I remembered you saying your wife worked on the patio one evening when her shoulder hurt. When you live with that kind of problem, you can get so sick of giving in to it that you try to work through the pain, and people tend to value being tough. I had to learn to be tough about not doing anything that hurt for any reason.

Oh, and something that might make you feel better...

Your wife changing her mind unpredictably about whether she wants a backrub from you or whether a backrub from you will help makes total sense to me.

Having experienced something much like what she is living through, let me assure you that has nothing whatsover to do with you. It is simply her back problems changing state from day to day.

I'd be willing to guess you have one main style of backrub -- most people do. It might be worth asking her on her better days if you can try slightly different styles of backrub on her, and then ask her what things she likes more than others. Or some days she might like you to rub certain parts of her back but not go near others. Some days a firmer massage might feel good and other days she might feel even a light touch is painful.

Also always ask what position she would like to be in and go with what she says. If you normally give her a backrub with her lying on her stomach, I'm not at all surprised she doesn't want one when the muscles are really inflamed. Sitting in a chair might work better. My physical therapist used to have me lie on my back on a table with the top of my head at the edge, and he would sit at the end of the table with the top of my head facing him and slide his hands under my shoulders to work the shoulder area. It was a pretty tough hand workout for him, but it was by far the easiest on me and the most relaxing. I still hate lying on my stomach for any kind of massage and I just won't do it -- it's too easy to pull a neck muscle that way.

I know what you mean. It is funny you mention whip lash. When my W first went to the chiropractor, he did an entire skeletal X-ray. What he found was that my W's kneck was straight. Apparently the kneck is supposed to have a curve to it. Turns out, my W remembers being in a car accident when she was a teenager. She never thought twice about it before. IT has almost been two years that my W has seen the chiropractor and her kneck X-rays look a lot better. However, based upon your comments, I am wondering if we had missed something.

I do not want you to get me wrong. My W does not go around and act frail. In fact, she does the opposite. She is ALWAYS over doing it. The land scaping, working on the patio whatever it is. This is something her and I have had different POVs on. I feel that if she is going to spend money on going to a chiropractor (as often as she does), she should give it half the chance of working, by not over doing it. She is very stubborn and will not listen to me, her mother or anyone else about taking it easy. Therefore, she ends up being sore, or having some type of ailment when I am home from work until I leave because when I am gone, she is over doing it. Obviously, I not only want her to not over do it to give her treatments a chance, but I also would like her to not be in pain when I am around so we could do things together. This is also a big reason as to why we got a hot tub this year. She soaks in it every night and says she feels much better afterwards.

Maybe you could give me some more details on the symptoms you had caused by your whip lash and ideas about physical therapy that I might be able to use towards explaining it better to my W. I would be willing to find any solution to this.

When we first started dating, she was not like this at all. She was tough and any little pain did not get in her way. She was like a completely different person. It was not until she became pregnant. Only 1.5 months into her pregnancy (she was not even showing yet), she started getting a real problem with her syatica nerve. She litterally could not get out of bed. She would call me (I was in a different state at the time) and she would be on her bedroom floor in tears because her entire leg would be numb. She had similar problems throughout her entire pregnancy. After giving birth and breaking her tail bone, she became a different person and always had some type of ailment. This really makes me sad and I feel really bad for her. Now she is not the same person I met and, as I said, seems to be like she is elderly at night.

She is 30 years old. She goes to bed with a heating pad on her back and kneck every night. She has some kind of head ache or congestion or ache every night. This is not right for a woman at her age. I am sure and convinced that this is a major part of why we are where we are in our M. This is why we went through the proffesionals we did. I understand that I cannot expect my W to be happy if she is miserable a lot of the time due to aches and pains.

Thanks,

EL

EL --

You might also check out the condition "Fibromyalgia." It has many (if not all) of the symptoms you have mentioned. And many Gen. Prac.'s are not interested in diagnosing it.

Wow, you're right that this is not right for a person her age.

But I think if I had heard that from just about anyone in my personal life when things were bad for me, I might not have really heard it. It might have just made me cranky.

It took my physical therapist to get me to listen. And I still got cranky when he said that to me. It's hard to hear someone say something that harsh about something you feel powerless to control.

I guess the thing that made me willing to pursue the program that made me better was first that my physical therapist assured me that this was not normal for a healthy young woman and could certainly be changed, and second that it was pretty clear that the strategies that brought short-term relief weren't returning me to normal health over the long term. He said his job was to make me not need him anymore, that success meant I had no pain and a strong, healthy body, and that this could certainly be done though it would take two years. He was right. Haven't seen him in years.