</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ironically, I thought you were a baby step ahead of me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny. I had the impression you might have thought that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL and EL's W need to both feel like the other is really *listening* to their emotions and caring about them, before they start dealing with issuess. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is only part of what I was trying to say. The other part is that even before they can get down to laying ground rules, they’ve got to open the lid on this can of worms and peek inside. It’s awfully hard to lay ground rules about a topic while dancing around the topic.

Right now, there are barriers to having the conversation itself. Those barriers are first emotional and next logistical. The emotional barriers are going to pop out of that can first and will need to be dealt with – all the insecurities, fears, worries about the past are likely to come flying out even before any kind of agreements can be made. In short, I don’t think EL’s wife is going to be in a place to MAKE those kinds of agreements until she experiences some validation, acknowledgement, and processing of the strong aversion feelings she’s built up about the TOPIC of conversation. EL’s counselor needs to help her do that. Right now it all feels too dark and scary for her. She’s afraid of the conversation and what it might imply. Calmly discussing safety rules and how she should respond to keep EL emotionally safe is likely to add a layer of fear and insecurity (Am I doing this right?) to what might all ready seem like an insurmountable mountain to climb.

EL’s wife does not strike me as having a historical tendency towards accepting verbal reassurances. She wants to see and feel the reassurance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Remember, EL's W has not demonstrated that she can have a conversation without reacting poorly and LB'ing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. This is one reason I’m trying to prepare EL for the emotional storm in his near future. She’s unlikely to be able to manage that conversation without slinging a whole host of negative images, thoughts, and feelings. But, it might be a necessary venting to depressurize her inner dialogue and get to a place where those feelings can be examined. This is why I want them to have a referee present. Getting that stuff out is going to feel like a step backward but if EL can put on his extra strong emotional buffer and STILL validate and acknowledge her feelings without trying to argue against or change them, I think he’ll have taken a vital step towards proving to her that she IS emotionally safe with him.

*smiles*

In any case, those are my thoughts. I like your approach, as well. I think the two approaches are similar enough that he can figure out which one he wants to try. Having both approaches available is going to help this situation because he can ‘test the wind’ and see which way it is blowing. If she seems amenable to building rules first, then jump all over that. If she seems unable to get to that point (of even consenting to build rules) before venting off some of the emotional pressure she’s accumulated, then switch to that plan and validate. Move back and forth between the plans until progress has been made.

Mys

Mys--

I see what you are saying, I think.

EL's W may need to feel like she is heard and that the point of the negotiations is to integrate her feeling into the marriage, before she can be comfortable with the negotiations.

This is kind of like my stock advice to first time posters to spend two weeks focussing on their spouses needs to get them comfortable with the idea of MB, etc. before bringing in the "hot issue." Otherwise they feel like, "This MB thing is just a way to try to push me into giving you SF" or some such thing.

You're right in the EL's W doesn't seem to respond to verbal at all.

I wonder if the MC should give her an opportunity to have 2 or three sessions just as griping sessions. All the while noting what her complaints are. I know EL wouldn't be happy with that scenario. (Sorry, bud) But I think it's important for him to show that he can listen to her, understand her feelings and openly grant her the right to those feelings, whether he feels they are justified or not.

That was one of the keys in my M to start turning things around. I finally realized that I would never understand how my W thinks and she would never think like me. But she has just as much right to her feelings and thoughts as I do. My job was to integrate sensitivity to her POV into our marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CommittedToJewel:
<strong> That was one of the keys in my M to start turning things around. I finally realized that I would never understand how my W thinks and she would never think like me. But she has just as much right to her feelings and thoughts as I do. My job was to integrate sensitivity to her POV into our marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THANKS for this comment! My H seems to think people should be more alike in this respect - and I'm more thinking like you on it. Thanks for validating my thoughts and feelings.

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the posting, it is really interesting. I was pretty busy yesterday and started a post, but I cannot address all that was written in the time I have. So I am starting over and will try to touch on some major points/issues.

Mineownself -

I understand what you are saying. Sometimes, I let my frustrations get the better of me and mention things that hurt me based upon how my W may react, but are not necessarily my initial reason for doing some action.

Baba -

I feel you have raised some great questions. I spent some time going through all of them. I realized that I am just as confused over my W's lack of interest as you said you are at times. I have asked myself all of the questions you have posed (and more) and never come up with a plausible answer, only ideas as to why and guesses that help me to move forward and continue working on our M.

Baba, you asked me to list what LBs I think are helping to cause my W to not desire me physically. I think this is a good excersize and it is always a good idea to re-evaluate yourself once in a while. Please keep in mind that I may not agree with these LBs as so far in that I actually agree that I am doing some of these, but it is my W's POV I am trying to lay out. Therefore, here goes:

1) Desiring sex all the time. - My W has expressed this a lot. My POV is that I am not desiring sex all the time, I just desire sex. The problem is because we do not engage in this, I am ready for it at any time. This causes my W to feel I want it ALL the time. This original POV from my W has morphed into her feeling that ANYTHING I do (something as simple as getting her a glass of water) is motivated by my strong desire for sex. Unfortunately, this has grown into what seems like an almost impossible situation for me to over come. Over the last year and a half I have been saying to her that although I feel that sex is an important part of M, I do not feel that it is the only important aspect.

2) Helping more around the house. - From time to time, my W has mentioned that she feels over whelmed with working around the house. I have tried to eliminate this through doing things such as the dishes and constantly picking up etc..

3) I tell my W she does something wrong or is bad. - My W has mentioned this a number of times. The funny thing is that it is exactly how I feel she treats me. Anyway, I have tried to be very careful and not come across to her in this manner.

4) Circular arguments. - My W has mentioned that I never let things drop and carry on with the argument we had. Basically, this is again ironic in my POV as I discovered that we both were competing for the last word in an argument. I have since given up this competition and have tried to remove any "power struggle." We have not had a circular argument in quite a while.

5) Jealousy - My W has told me that jealous people are a real turn off for her. She has stated that I come across as jealous to her. I have tried to change this through working really hard on my own trust issues. This recent wedding showed her that I am potentially making progress in this area.

6) Controling - My W has called me controling and has claimed that she had to completely change her life and loose contact with her friends to "stay in our M." I have tried to work on this through working directly on my own mis trust issues, while also encouraging my W to do things. I do still mentally struggle with things my W may do when it involves opposite sex friends, but I am working on this.

7) Parenting - My W has never stated anything about my being a bad father, but I feel I could always improve on this. She has surprised me in the past with comments saying things like she felt I did not want our S around at certain times, which hurt me greatly since I never felt like this. So I have been trying to do more things with our S and be super dad.

8) Emotionally disconnected. - My W has said that she does not trust me emotionally. Therefore, I have been trying to act in ways to rebuild that emotional trust. She has said that this takes time and I feel she is reluctant to agree that I have changed for the better until in her mind I have done so many things RIGHT that it really is a non-issue.

9) DJs - I still find myself blurting out a DJ once in a while and then apologizing immediately when I realize I did this.

These are some of the major ones I can think of right now.

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That being said, I truly do believe it is early yet. You have, if I can remember right, a string of about 2 weeks going without major disruption. The sunglasses was the last major incident right? So only 2 weeks! And even in those two weeks you have seen your wife opening up! Imagine if that stretches to a month! Or even two! You guys could be back on track by Christmas! Wahoo!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that we are still ealry on with my completely eliminating LBs. In fact, I would say that I have not completely eliminated LBs. I do not believe anyone can completely eliminate LBs because it is human nature to think of things differently at different times. Because no one can ever totally remove LBs completely, it makes figuring out how and when to try and move forward really difficult.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m so glad to hear the wedding went well and that things are progressing smoothly for you! Good job! *cheer*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. I mean, its not like my W was jumping up and down and saying, "Thanks, I really saw a difference and it made me feel closer to you;" but she did say that I did not do anything to push her further away emotionally. I guess this is a back handed compliment. It shows me she acknowledges that I did not push her away, yet she is still reserving her judgement as to whether or not I have actually "changed" for 1000 more examples. I can accept this baby step.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Things on my end are looking up, too. Closing is this Thursday (cross your fingers all goes well) so the chaos is HOPEFULLY coming to an end.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY! Good for you! <crosses fingers & offers a box of chocolates>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I urge you to bring this issue up in MC. Remember, you have an agreement with your MC to encourage your wife to communicate with you about this issue. I’d like to caution you about a couple of things first. One, you need to be very, very prepared to accept what your wife says – that means, be ready to potentially receive some bad news. Sexuality and intimacy are very touchy subjects and (I’ll use myself as an example) sometimes the explanation for “why not or when” is nebulous and wrapped up in a lot of very strong emotions that might be from some time in the past. Talking about them helps ME to rationalize and examine them. But when they first come out, in their raw form, they can come out in a way that you would find very discouraging or possibly hurtful. In order to build trust, it’s going to be VERY important that your wife has a safe place to say things that she thinks as a way to examine them without worrying about hurting your feelings. Remember, these are all thoughts and feelings that are changeable. None of it has to be “TRUE” in the sense that you are actually like that. It’s simply “TRUE” in the sense that it accurately reflects her current thought/emotional life. I’m going to post a little about my thoughts on this on Lookingforchange’s update thread in a little while. You might want to look for that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying. I can prepare myself for the hurt and pain and hold my tongue. I am not certain yet on the timing of bringing this up. Even the MC said to wait and let my W bring it up. I feel like I am in a repetitive process where we are good (other than SF) for a period of time and I bring the subject up and we are bad again. My W has said in the past that "I knew it was coming up. I was just waiting for when you were going to bring it up. I have been going to bed the last few nights sick to my stomach over this coming up because it has been a few days." In actuality it usually would have been weeks or months with me trying to give her space and protect her feelings of being pushed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know you like examples, so I’ll give you one.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Goody, goody, goody....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It might come out that she’s unwilling to engage in intimacy because she feels that’s all you care about and you are only working on the marriage because you want her to have sex with you. Now, that might make you sad or unhappy because of all the great effort you’ve been putting into trying to make her happy and meet her needs. I caution you to set aside your judgments and realize that she’s telling you the reason she has for “why.” It’s true and it’s valid that she feels that way. It doesn’t make it true or valid that you really only want sex. If you use that admission on her part to EDUCATE her or EXPLAIN to her your point of view, you will be LOOSING an opportunity to make her safe. A better method of approaching that will be to explore with her why she feels that way and whether or not your current actions support that view or do not support it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can do this. I am just wondering if we are at a "good time" to discuss this or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It might come out that she’s unwilling to engage in intimacy because she feels that’s all you care about and you are only working on the marriage because you want her to have sex with you. Now, that might make you sad or unhappy because of all the great effort you’ve been putting into trying to make her happy and meet her needs. I caution you to set aside your judgments and realize that she’s telling you the reason she has for “why.” It’s true and it’s valid that she feels that way. It doesn’t make it true or valid that you really only want sex. If you use that admission on her part to EDUCATE her or EXPLAIN to her your point of view, you will be LOOSING an opportunity to make her safe. A better method of approaching that will be to explore with her why she feels that way and whether or not your current actions support that view or do not support it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I see the difference. I like your example! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You start out your brand new relationship in a state of intimacy. Both of you are feeling connected and in love with one another. After a while, problems arise, leading to conflict. One or both sides try to address the problems but because of the way the problems are being dealt with (LB’s galore) the love bank gets drained. After a while, frustration and resentment build up as the love bank balance goes down. Withdrawal happens when one spouse is tired and frustrated to the point where s/he simple gives up and withdraws. S/he builds protective walls to escape the agony of constant conflict. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is it not enough for the spouse in withdrawl, who is there in part because their spouse could not see or acknowledge what they were doing to help cause the spouse to withdrawl in the first place, to hear from their spouse that they now see what their own actions have done to contribute to this. If the withdrawn spouse understands that their spouse now has the clarity of thought to see how their actions helped to cause the issues, and their spouse is 100% committed towards fixing their own faults, and explains that they need to develop a good and safe way of communicating so that they can work through the tougher issues, is it possible for the withdrawn spouse to push themselves out of being withdrawn to work on things? You see, I have tried to take the upfront approach. I have admitted finally understanding and seeing what my W has complained on about me. I have totally validated her complaints and have taken actions towards working on mending these bad habits of mine. We have been trying to work on better ways of communicating and have been somewhat successful in the fact that we have not really had a circular argument in a while. I feel that if I try to explain to her that we need to improve our communication skills so that we can eventually feel comfortable and safe enough to discuss the harder issues. However, I know if I bring this up, it will most likely not get me anywhere. I do not understand why, because I think differently to my W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, you’re starting to work on the relationship. Effectively enticing a spouse out of withdrawal requires a few things. 1.) Depositing enough love units in the love bank to get the spouse’s attention and interest him/her in the viability of the marriage. 2.) Convincing the withdrawn spouse that it is not only worth while to fix the problems and reinvest in the marriage but that it will be safe and effective to do that. 3.) Entering INTO conflict about the issues which have remained unresolved and negotiating solutions. This conflict is different than the original conflict because, while you’re dealing with strong emotions (anger, resentment, etc) you’re doing it in a way that is productive and solution oriented.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great. However, I am thinking we are still at #1 on your list. I do not know that she feels comfortable moving forward and fixing things yet. Maybe she is, but just not the things I personnally feel are bigger issues for me. Reaching #3 is tricky. How do you kno when you are ready to try #3? If you try too early, when you are actually at #1, you take a back slide very quickly. Don't you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It important to understand that, as a spouse emerges from withdrawal, s/he tends to bounce in and out. It can be very hard to convince someone to try again one s/he has given up. And, any small set back that reinforces the validity of the withdrawal will be more significant at that stage. The withdrawn spouse will pull back into his/her shell like a turtle at the first sign of trouble.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds more like where we are at. The back and forth I can totally understand and see. The thing is, I do still make some mistakes, and I think they are counting the same as large ones for right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The trouble isn’t the conflict. The conflict is the mechanism by which you will pave the way back to intimacy. As you build confidence in your marriage that these tough issues and disagreements can be handled in a way that you are mutually enthusiastic about you will simultaneously build confidence in the viability and sustainability of the marriage. You can not get back to intimacy until you progress through that state and effectively learn to manage the conflict and strong emotions it brings without LBing your spouse and draining the love bank.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds good, but really tough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The withdrawn spouse will bounce in and out of withdrawal at what might otherwise be considered a “minor” thing. It is very important to work to eliminate LB’s during the time you are enticing a spouse out of withdrawal. Generally, with a consistent meeting of needs and very consistent lack of LB’s, the withdrawn spouse will emerge and re-engage.

It is an uphill battle, make no mistake about it. It can be VERY challenging to get a withdrawn spouse to re-engage in the marriage! Often, the MB’ing spouse has needs that aren’t being met and yet is working SO hard to fill his/her spouse’s needs. It’s not easy and it isn’t fair. It doesn’t always work, but it’s often an effective strategy to try.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with what you are saying and am working on this strategy. The I think I should be doing it (in my mind) is: 1) Get spouse back from withdrawl and interested in working on M through no LBs and no DJs and improved habits. 2) Communicate effectively regarding major issues of conflict. 3) Work towards resolving these conflicts effectively for both partners. Now, the problem is that in my mind I was thinking that I cannot consider #2 until #1 is completed. Unfortunately, I do not know how to tell when #1 is completed. What you have been recomending is that #1, #2 and #3 are actually worked on at the same time. Unfortunately, this is in a direct conflict for me. You see, if discussing our relationship (regarding any topic) is an LB in itself, I can never complete #1 if I also try to do #2. If I complete #1, which includes never discussing our relationship, two things could happen,1) I might go into withdrawl, 2) She may go back into withdrawl when I try to start #2. What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The time to start working through some of this conflict is RIGHT NOW. Not next week, not next month, not next year. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you say this if even the mere wiff of a relationship talk sends my W into building more bricks on her walls? I do not understand. Please explain to me what I am not seeing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is absolutely vital that EL continue to make love deposits by meeting his wife’s needs as she has stated them. He needs to focus REALLY hard on eliminating those LB’s. He has been doing a very nice job with that. He made it through the wedding with flying colors and has had a couple of very good weeks. It’s not time to rest on his laurels quite yet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not think of resting on my laurels, but how do you know when you have padded the love bank sufficently to try and move forward? How do I do this? I am not scared to try and move forward. I am scared about sending us back to the starting gates..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The next step is to gently and gradually revisit historical sources of conflict. Now, that conflict is touchy, runs deep and, right now, even the mention of it causes more conflict. But, it’s time to gather up the courage and start tentatively putting it on the radar screen. Essentially, it’s time to have conflict about the conflict. It’s time to examine the strong avoidance feelings and walls which are built around the conflict so you can get inside and work towards solving it. I’d like to seem him doing that very gently with an extremely light touch. His MC who works with both of them can facilitate those conversations. That is the purpose for the first half of my post – to help EL use a new approach to the conflict and the issue. Those feelings (which are likely to be strong and negative) have to come out and be validated, acknowledged, and processed BEFORE anyone is moving on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so, you are suggesting that I discuss why my W is ressistant to discussing our relationship, or sex or anything, rather than the actual discussing of our relationship, sex or anything?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s NOT too soon.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you know this? What if she is pushed back into withdrawl from this attempt? How long do I have to go before I can try again if she is pushed back into withdrawl? How confusing can this get?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no way to tell how long it will take to ‘work through’ the issues.

First, you learn to meet your spouse’s EN’s and eliminate harmful LB’s. Fill the Love Bank.

Then, you have to dismantle the protective layers of judgments and resentments. **EL needs to be here.**

Then you have to approach the problem and brain storm solutions.

Then you have to pick one that BOTH find comfortable and sustainable.

THEN you have to test it to see if it worked.

Finally, you have to maintain it - revisit it often enough to tweak things so that both spouse's remain in close, open communication about the issue and it remains solved. (Because, who in his/her right mind wants to do this twice?!) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great, but how do you avoid itterating between the first and second point in an endless loop? What, if any, are the signs to be looking for telling me its OK to progress another step?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that for the short term, they should lean on their marriage counselor and bring these topics up only in marriage counseling. They both need a safe place with a referee present to start examining the layers of emotion surrounding these issues. Before they are going to build agreements, they have to learn to behave in a safe manner with each other. I am hoping (really, really hoping like crazy) that their MC will step up to the plate and actively coach them on this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me Too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is only part of what I was trying to say. The other part is that even before they can get down to laying ground rules, they’ve got to open the lid on this can of worms and peek inside. It’s awfully hard to lay ground rules about a topic while dancing around the topic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have we not opened this can of worms already? My W feels that I do not fully trust her because I have trust issues from my past that she feels I am unfairly projecting onto her. She also feels that I do not hear her POV nor do I validate it. She also feels that I am always frustrated and disappointed with her. She also feels that I put too much weight on having a physical relationship. I feel my W is way too distant. I feel my W is not interested in a physical relationship with me. I feel my W does not give me affection. I feel my W does not value spending time with me over other things. I feel that my W does not treat me like she is in love with me. All of these things have come out. They have been mentioned. They have been agreed to be problems. Unfortunately, this is about as far as we get. It is so frustrating because, we agree there are these problems. I feel as though I am working on the problems presented to me and am able to give examples that my W actually agrees that show I am working on "my" issues. I can only give you one or two isolated examples of my W that shows she is working on the issues I have raised (at least in a way that is meaningful to me). With this in mind, my W does not like to go to MC, which is quite obvious to everyone. My W also does not allow discussion about our relationship (any in depth discussions that are over 60 seconds anyway). So now I am confused as to why you say we need to remove the lid. Are you meaning the lid as to why my W is so hesitant on even discussing our M? Are you meaning something deeper?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now, there are barriers to having the conversation itself. Those barriers are first emotional and next logistical. The emotional barriers are going to pop out of that can first and will need to be dealt with – all the insecurities, fears, worries about the past are likely to come flying out even before any kind of agreements can be made. In short, I don’t think EL’s wife is going to be in a place to MAKE those kinds of agreements until she experiences some validation, acknowledgement, and processing of the strong aversion feelings she’s built up about the TOPIC of conversation. EL’s counselor needs to help her do that. Right now it all feels too dark and scary for her. She’s afraid of the conversation and what it might imply. Calmly discussing safety rules and how she should respond to keep EL emotionally safe is likely to add a layer of fear and insecurity (Am I doing this right?) to what might all ready seem like an insurmountable mountain to climb.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, so can you explain (in simple guy speak) what you think it is my W needs to over come this. Do I go to MC with her and say, "I feel that my W has a strong aversion to discussing our relationship at all, and I need to be able to understand why this is because I am feeling really frustrated that I cannot have a format or feel comfortable trying to dicuss things with my W. Can you give us some guidance as to how I can better understand what my W is feeling and why she feels this way? Can you help us to both feel more comfortable and safe to discuss our relationship? Can you help us reach an agreement that would meet my W's need for <whatever it is, because I do not know what it is at this time> as well as meet my need to feel as though we are both communicating about our M? I really feel we need to have a platform to discuss how things are going and what things are not going so well. I feel we need to have the comfort and feel safe enough that we are confident in being able to discuss anything with each other at any time."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL’s wife does not strike me as having a historical tendency towards accepting verbal reassurances. She wants to see and feel the reassurance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not only does it appear that she wants to feel the reassurence, but also any reassurence shown to her appears to be worth about 1/49898 of a love bank unit. At the slow rate it is adding up, I am not surprised that it would take 25 years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. This is one reason I’m trying to prepare EL for the emotional storm in his near future. She’s unlikely to be able to manage that conversation without slinging a whole host of negative images, thoughts, and feelings. But, it might be a necessary venting to depressurize her inner dialogue and get to a place where those feelings can be examined. This is why I want them to have a referee present. Getting that stuff out is going to feel like a step backward but if EL can put on his extra strong emotional buffer and STILL validate and acknowledge her feelings without trying to argue against or change them, I think he’ll have taken a vital step towards proving to her that she IS emotionally safe with him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try. So let me try and put this into a phrase/statement I can understand. Basically, my W is/was withdrawn from me and our M. However, the fact that she is still around and willing (all be it not happy with) to go to MC, she is showing that she is willing to give us somewhat of a chance still. She comes out and states that she emotionally does not trust me and that she feels I do not listen to her and that I am always telling her she is doing something wrong. We had been having heated circular arguments that would drive both of us to insanity, but now we do not do this. My W may be testing me at times with loaded emotional statements about how she actually feels (loaded with LBs because she has not learned about LBs). If I happen to just accept what she yells at me and validate her feelings, I may be passing some type of test that will tell her I am listening to her, validating her and that maybe, just maybe I am finally ready to hear what she may have to say. However, as we stand now, I have not passed this test because I usually fall for the bait, or am not given a chance to have these emotionally charged conversations anymore. Therefore, we can never move forward on resolutions because my W remains emotionally distant until I somehow am allowed another exam. Therefore, you are suggesting I attempt, with everything I have learned and possibly a tranquilizer, to engage my W in one of these emotionally charged conversations during the MC session, and no matter what - hear her, accept what she is saying, validate it and bury my urge to argue or defend my own POV. By doing this I may be able to close some of the emotional gap we currently have. Is this what you are saying?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In any case, those are my thoughts. I like your approach, as well. I think the two approaches are similar enough that he can figure out which one he wants to try. Having both approaches available is going to help this situation because he can ‘test the wind’ and see which way it is blowing. If she seems amenable to building rules first, then jump all over that. If she seems unable to get to that point (of even consenting to build rules) before venting off some of the emotional pressure she’s accumulated, then switch to that plan and validate. Move back and forth between the plans until progress has been made.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, wash, rinse, repeat if necessary. Got it.

Thanks Mys. I am learning a lot from your ideas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wonder if the MC should give her an opportunity to have 2 or three sessions just as griping sessions. All the while noting what her complaints are. I know EL wouldn't be happy with that scenario. (Sorry, bud) But I think it's important for him to show that he can listen to her, understand her feelings and openly grant her the right to those feelings, whether he feels they are justified or not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I really would not mind this at all. Unfortunately, when she is given this opportunity, she just pulls a "deer in the headlights" kind of response and remains silent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> What am I supposed to do then. I know she feels put on the spot, so I try to save her by stepping in and saying something to the MC after about five minutes of silence. It is important to me that she does not feel ganged up on, especially at the MC sessions.


All -

I wanted to give another example that hurts me, but may give you guys a little more insight into my W's thinking. The last two days I have not posted anything because I have been really busy. I am trying to put out a HUGE fire that is costing my company a lot of money. This is one of those REALLY bad things. So I am having a REALLY bad week. My W knows that things are extremely difficult right now and I am not getting a lot of sleep. I got home last night and the first thing she says to me is, "You would not believe the bad day I am having. I had to do all this extra work for the board the entire day and could not get anything else done." It is all a matter of perspectives, I know, but the issues I am dealing with could have ended up resulting in, uh oh our business tanked and we do not have any more money and I had to let all of our employees go as well. Her issue was a voulentary thing that would not have really effect our family or way of life. I am not trying to say that her issue was not big in her mind, nor should it be treated any less than my having a bad day. What I am saying is that my bad days this week are potentially disasterous to OUR wellbeing. It did not even occur to her to even ask me how yesterday went. I find this interesting that she appears to be so focused on herself and not curious about something that could directly hurt her entire family. What do you guys make of this?

Another thing she mentions to me is that she was talking with some of the girls in the neighborhood. Basically, they were shocked that we kiss good-bye in the morning because my W is still in bed when I leave and they could not believe I go over to her and "wake her up." Actually, she is usually awake when I go over to her anyway. So she now asks me if I could just kiss her on the back of her head and not wake her up. I am actually hurt by this request as this is one of the two times per day I actually get a little kiss from my W. It is the only type of real physical affection I get. What do you take frome this?

Thanks to everyone,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks. I mean, its not like my W was jumping up and down and saying, "Thanks, I really saw a difference and it made me feel closer to you;" but she did say that I did not do anything to push her further away emotionally. I guess this is a back handed compliment. It shows me she acknowledges that I did not push her away, yet she is still reserving her judgement as to whether or not I have actually "changed" for 1000 more examples. I can accept this baby step. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It might not be such a ‘baby step’ as you consider it. Besides, she might not be privy to all the information you provided here about your thoughts on the wedding and your increased comfort level, also. You get kudos for that, too. You faced something that was very hard for you and did a good job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YAY! Good for you! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks!

Today’s the day… but it’s not till afternoon. So, I’m sure time is going to DRAG by.

I’m going to skip around a bit on the timing of discussions and the logistics because a lot of this is the same topic.

But first…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why is it not enough for the spouse in withdrawl, who is there in part because their spouse could not see or acknowledge what they were doing to help cause the spouse to withdrawl in the first place, to hear from their spouse that they now see what their own actions have done to contribute to this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that sometimes it CAN be enough to hear acknowledgement and then see the spouse working on the relationship to entice a spouse out of withdrawal. It’s just as true that sometimes it ISN’T enough. I think I know which one you’d find easier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The reason “why” is as varied as the number of people in relationships. Each person has his/her own internal reasoning for doing what s/he does. Rest assured that what your wife is doing makes perfect sense to her. She might not be willing or able to verbalize her reasons for you, but she definitely has them. A lot of her mechanisms for dealing with things were developed long before you arrived into her life. She is a composite of her experiences and reactions to those experiences. Not accepting verbal reassurances is not a flaw or negative trait; it’s simply not a mechanism that she employs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If the withdrawn spouse understands that their spouse now has the clarity of thought to see how their actions helped to cause the issues, and their spouse is 100% committed towards fixing their own faults, and explains that they need to develop a good and safe way of communicating so that they can work through the tougher issues, is it possible for the withdrawn spouse to push themselves out of being withdrawn to work on things? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A lot of this might have to do with how your wife internalizes things. I don’t know if you’ve peeked at the Thinker thread by LowOrbit. But, I suspect your wife would score on the Feeler side of the chart. Facts and assertions do not form the core of her internalizations. Consider that she’s looking to “feel” safe with you and “feel” trust for you. She may ‘intellectually’ believe that you recognize what went wrong and even that you are trying like crazy to fix it but there isn’t a direct route between that intellectualization and her feelings. This sort of thing happens to us feelers ALL THE TIME. (Can you tell I’m a Feeler?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, I have tried to take the upfront approach. I have admitted finally understanding and seeing what my W has complained on about me. I have totally validated her complaints and have taken actions towards working on mending these bad habits of mine. We have been trying to work on better ways of communicating and have been somewhat successful in the fact that we have not really had a circular argument in a while. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you have. And those are all very positive things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel that if I try to explain to her that we need to improve our communication skills so that we can eventually feel comfortable and safe enough to discuss the harder issues. However, I know if I bring this up, it will most likely not get me anywhere. I do not understand why, because I think differently to my W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s quite possible that the reason it won’t ‘get you anywhere’ is because you think differently than your W. The reasons that you are likely to give for needing to improve your (as a couple) communications skills to discuss harder issues is unlikely to resonate with your W. In other words, she’s going to listen to your list of reasons – all of which are perfectly true and valid for you – and none of them are going to be items which she is likely to base her decisions about the topic on. Does that make sense?

I’ll give you an example. In this example, you get to play a very practical, thinker type person who primarily defines “the value of a car” as cost effectiveness, efficiency, and reliability. In this example, I get to play a person who defines the “value of a car” in terms of self esteem, desires, and appearance.

Consider the following conversation:


Me: Guess what?! I found the perfect car today! It’s a red convertible with these great whitewall tires. It’s just the cutest little thing. Can we buy it?

You: Uhm.. well, how much was it?

Me: Oh.. well, it was a little pricy – it was $35,876. But I’ve ALWAYS DREAMED about driving a little red convertible down a windy road.. we could have so much FUN in that car! It’s only 4 years old…

You: *choke* $35 grand?! For a used car?! Good heavens, what kind of car was it?

Me: Brand? Oh, it was a Yugo.. but it had these sparkling white leather seats that just SET OFF the red…

You: *choke* *sputter* A YUGO?! Have you taken leave of your senses?!


*snickers* Ok.. anyway, you can see that in that example that I’m relaying information to you about why I want this red, convertible Yugo but none of that information is relevant to how you would make a car buying decision. I realize this is a pretty glaring (and somewhat comical) example but it is important to understand that the things she VALUES and the reasons she has for investing in certain things are NOT the same as yours. They don’t have to be the same as yours to reach agreement.

What needs to happen is that your wife needs to find some reasons that are beneficial to HER in HER VALUE system to invest in <communication or whatever>. The best person to help her do this is not going to be you. This is what your MC is around for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Great. However, I am thinking we are still at #1 on your list. I do not know that she feels comfortable moving forward and fixing things yet. Maybe she is, but just not the things I personnally feel are bigger issues for me. Reaching #3 is tricky. How do you kno when you are ready to try #3? If you try too early, when you are actually at #1, you take a back slide very quickly. Don't you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These aren’t exactly sequential steps. They are sequential in a WAY but most of the time there should be significant overlap. You’ve done enough to get your W’s attention and tweak her interest. You can tell that because she’s made some changes in her behavior towards you. She isn’t going to be able to come out of withdrawal UNTIL she passes through conflict. So, the best strategy is to keep all three going at once.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This sounds more like where we are at. The back and forth I can totally understand and see. The thing is, I do still make some mistakes, and I think they are counting the same as large ones for right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everyone makes mistakes; don’t beat yourself up about them too much. That’s MY job. (Mwahahahaha… *cough* Ahem… )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with what you are saying and am working on this strategy. The I think I should be doing it (in my mind) is: 1) Get spouse back from withdrawl and interested in working on M through no LBs and no DJs and improved habits. 2) Communicate effectively regarding major issues of conflict. 3) Work towards resolving these conflicts effectively for both partners. Now, the problem is that in my mind I was thinking that I cannot consider #2 until #1 is completed. Unfortunately, I do not know how to tell when #1 is completed. What you have been recomending is that #1, #2 and #3 are actually worked on at the same time. Unfortunately, this is in a direct conflict for me. You see, if discussing our relationship (regarding any topic) is an LB in itself, I can never complete #1 if I also try to do #2. If I complete #1, which includes never discussing our relationship, two things could happen,1) I might go into withdrawl, 2) She may go back into withdrawl when I try to start #2. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it is somewhat circular. First, you build up some units in the love bank. Then, you pick a problem and bring it up (or have a new problem) handling it in a different and more effective manner. This will build confidence in your ability (as a couple and individually) to handle conflict productively. You can’t build that confidence if you never have conflict. You can’t reach intimacy until all the past conflict has been dealt with. You see the circular nature? Accept the bouncing back and forth. It’s all part of the deal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why do you say this if even the mere wiff of a relationship talk sends my W into building more bricks on her walls? I do not understand. Please explain to me what I am not seeing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you’re showing her that you’re using different methods than you have in the past. Staying in a state of non-communication is not a sustainable model for you in this marriage. You’re there now because you can’t work on everything at once, right? But, don’t get stuck there. Instead, allow conflict to arise then HANDLE IT DIFFERENTLY.

If you were planning to do things the same way you’ve always done them, then I wouldn’t recommend bringing up the conflict because that would be continuing the same counter-productive cycle that got you here in the first place. But you’re not, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would not think of resting on my laurels, but how do you know when you have padded the love bank sufficently to try and move forward? How do I do this? I am not scared to try and move forward. I am scared about sending us back to the starting gates..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, EL, it’s a balance. You’ve had a couple of good weeks. I think that’s long enough to at least bring out some tentative feelers in that direction. You don’t want to haul the whole house of cards down on your head or anything but you can start making small steps in that direction. This is why it’s SO important that you do this in the relatively safe setting of MC. This is not a ‘go do this at home’ assignment.

Consider this… my eye is on both parties. Your W needs consideration because she’s in withdrawal. But, I also look at you. You need to see some progress. Now, this is not an affair situation; you don’t have outside influences interfering. So, I don’t want you in a typical Plan A situation where you are meeting needs without asking for your needs to be met. I want you to meet her needs and to work to eliminate your LB’s but I don’t expect you to go 6 months without asking for your needs to be met. Obviously ALL of your needs aren’t going to be met say.. tomorrow.. but it’s time to start the discussion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> so, you are suggesting that I discuss why my W is ressistant to discussing our relationship, or sex or anything, rather than the actual discussing of our relationship, sex or anything? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not exactly… (more later)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do you know this? What if she is pushed back into withdrawl from this attempt? How long do I have to go before I can try again if she is pushed back into withdrawl? How confusing can this get? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it’s likely that she will bounce in and out of withdrawal. The things you’re doing to fill her love bank and avoiding LB’s is going to help entice her out. Entering into conflict to resolve issues will bounce her back in. It’s going to be like that for a little while.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is great, but how do you avoid itterating between the first and second point in an endless loop? What, if any, are the signs to be looking for telling me its OK to progress another step? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You ask the questions and let the MC coach your wife. (And, I’m crossing my fingers that the MC does coach her… )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you meaning the lid as to why my W is so hesitant on even discussing our M? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Well, obliquely.

I think it’s important to get your wife talking. But, I’m not advising you to take the approach of “Let’s talk about why you don’t want to talk about the M.” The reason for that is because you’re potentially going to get stuck there. Instead, bring up the real issues (and let me say this again) in the safe confines of MC. This is not an at home discussion. In the short term, this is not aimed towards getting her to discuss these issues with you at home. I am concerned that, if you frame the topic as “Why can’t we discuss our M?” in marriage counseling your wife is going to leap to the conclusion that you want to get her to consent to discussions at away from MC. She’s not ready for that yet.

Hopefully, your MC will challenge her and encourage her to open up a discussion about her feelings on the topic. Your job is to be as validating and acknowledging as possible and resist the urge to present your side of the story.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, so can you explain (in simple guy speak) what you think it is my W needs to over come this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I read that sentence I had this image pop in my mind of the comedian Tim Allen and the way he acts out ‘guy speak’ (the grunting, etc.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do I go to MC with her and say, "I feel that my W has a strong aversion to discussing our relationship at all, and I need to be able to understand why this is because I am feeling really frustrated that I cannot have a format or feel comfortable trying to dicuss things with my W. Can you give us some guidance as to how I can better understand what my W is feeling and why she feels this way? Can you help us to both feel more comfortable and safe to discuss our relationship? Can you help us reach an agreement that would meet my W's need for <whatever it is, because I do not know what it is at this time> as well as meet my need to feel as though we are both communicating about our M? I really feel we need to have a platform to discuss how things are going and what things are not going so well. I feel we need to have the comfort and feel safe enough that we are confident in being able to discuss anything with each other at any time." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm. No, don’t say that.

There are a lot of reasons why your phrasing would be likely to set off fireworks in MC but I don’t want to get into those right now because, as I mentioned above, I think that bringing up “when can we talk” as a subject is not going to be a productive discussion right now. Instead, I’m going to give you some more examples of your current issues that you CAN bring up and the “I” message method to bring it up.

Examples: all the context of MC but spoken directly to your wife and ONE AT A TIME

“Lately, I’ve been feeling a little discouraged and adrift. Sometimes I just need a little encouragement that I’m doing the right things or that things are getting better. I’d really love to hear that if it’s true from you. How do you feel about that?”

“I was sad when you asked me to give up our morning kiss together. I really value that expression of affection. It means so much for me to go off to work after a kiss – it just starts my day off on a good note. I understand that it might wake you up, and I’d like to ask you if it really bothers you a lot or if you’d be willing to continue that ritual?”

“I have to confess that I’m really struggling with the lack of sexual intimacy right now. I’m not trying to be pushy but it’s been very hard for me because it is so close to how I experience love between us. I’m sorry if this is hard for you to hear.. it’s hard for me to say but I wanted to let you know how I feel. I’m willing to wait until you’re ready but please understand that it’s hard for me to do that.”

“I thought the wedding went really well. I learned a lot and I really appreciated your efforts to include me. I know it doesn’t fix everything between us, but I’d feel a lot better about things if you would share your thoughts – positive or negative – about the experience with me.”


Then, listen to what she has to say. Or, let her not say anything. Hopefully, your MC will open the conversation up but no one can force your wife to participate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not only does it appear that she wants to feel the reassurence, but also any reassurence shown to her appears to be worth about 1/49898 of a love bank unit. At the slow rate it is adding up, I am not surprised that it would take 25 year </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Just like this &^*% move of mine, huh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will try. So let me try and put this into a phrase/statement I can understand. Basically, my W is/was withdrawn from me and our M. However, the fact that she is still around and willing (all be it not happy with) to go to
<snip>
Therefore, you are suggesting I attempt, with everything I have learned and possibly a tranquilizer, to engage my W in one of these emotionally charged conversations during the MC session, and no matter what - hear her, accept what she is saying, validate it and bury my urge to argue or defend my own POV. By doing this I may be able to close some of the emotional gap we currently have. Is this what you are saying? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. You went on quite a journey logistically with that but eventually ended up in the exact right place. I’m not sure if the intermediary steps are important enough to bother correcting since you NAILED the conclusion.

Why don’t you tell me if you want more clarification?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks Mys. I am learning a lot from your ideas. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anytime.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It did not even occur to her to even ask me how yesterday went. I find this interesting that she appears to be so focused on herself and not curious about something that could directly hurt her entire family. What do you guys make of this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can think of all kinds of reasons that she wouldn’t bring it up. One is that she has confidence in your abilities to handle the work situation and believes that you’ll find a way to fix it (you always do).

Another is that she figures that if you wanted to respond in kind “Yeah, tell me about it…<commence griping> “ you would have. That type of conversation is a very typical female conversational pattern. As long as you RELATED on the level of ‘having a bad day’ without bringing in more important/urgent she probably would have participated in the conversation.

Today is your lucky day.. more examples.

“Oh yeah.. I hate it when that happens! Why, just today <similar situation> happened. I was so <emotion>. Anyway, what did you do?”

“Oh yeah, it must be the phase of the moon or something, because I think everyone had a bad day. Work was … <gripe>… So, what eventually happened with <something about her situation>?”

Verses:

“You think that’s bad?! Let me tell you about MY day… “
or
“You’re not the only one who had a bad day, you know. Why today… <gripe>.”


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you take frome this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bring it up in MC like I showed you *points up*. What I take from it is that she doesn’t know that you feel how you feel and her Magic 8 ball is on the fritz (those things are SO unreliable sometimes – mine keeps telling me “Ask again later” *sigh*).

Mys

Hey Mys,

I have been way busy and have not had much time to jump on this site. Anyway, thanks for the reply. It is helpful as always.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You faced something that was very hard for you and did a good job.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Today’s the day… but it’s not till afternoon. So, I’m sure time is going to DRAG by.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope it all goes how you want it too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s quite possible that the reason it won’t ‘get you anywhere’ is because you think differently than your W. The reasons that you are likely to give for needing to improve your (as a couple) communications skills to discuss harder issues is unlikely to resonate with your W. In other words, she’s going to listen to your list of reasons – all of which are perfectly true and valid for you – and none of them are going to be items which she is likely to base her decisions about the topic on. Does that make sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying. Thanks for the example by the way. I guess the only way for someone to make decisions like this (based on things they do not deem as important) is in part how happy they want to make the other person. If someone wants to make you happy, they are going to let what they would consider, logical thinking to be swayed in favor of the other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What needs to happen is that your wife needs to find some reasons that are beneficial to HER in HER VALUE system to invest in <communication or whatever>. The best person to help her do this is not going to be you. This is what your MC is around for.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I'll lean on the help of a proffessional here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These aren’t exactly sequential steps. They are sequential in a WAY but most of the time there should be significant overlap. You’ve done enough to get your W’s attention and tweak her interest. You can tell that because she’s made some changes in her behavior towards you. She isn’t going to be able to come out of withdrawal UNTIL she passes through conflict. So, the best strategy is to keep all three going at once. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ironic, since this conflict is what got us where we are. I know, it was not the conflict, but rather how we dealt with the conflict. Now that I/(hopefully we) are learning new ways to handle this conflict we will be able to over come it and move on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Because you’re showing her that you’re using different methods than you have in the past. Staying in a state of non-communication is not a sustainable model for you in this marriage. You’re there now because you can’t work on everything at once, right? But, don’t get stuck there. Instead, allow conflict to arise then HANDLE IT DIFFERENTLY.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this and might have screwed up here. Yesterday, I had the day off because I was supposed to work a 24 hour shift today. Therefore, yesterday was suppose to be a take it easy and relax day. My W wanted to go get a tree (for working on our landscaping now that we have a patio to landscape around <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ). Anyway, we end up with two trees and 9 bushes. These all need to get into the ground pretty quick. So I start to help her and everything I did got a comment from her as to how I was doing something wrong. I did not say anything and tried to look at it from her point of view. She would ask me for my opinion and then shoot it down consistently. However, after the 15th time in 20 minutes, she also made a comment about how we are not going to build a grill on the patio now. This was the one thing I was going to get out of the whole patio. I wanted a deck and she wanted the patio. She used the whole "build a grill how I wanted it" to sell me on the patio. Now this was taken away from me. I said, "I thought we agreed that we would build a grill." She said, "I never totally agreed to it." I was finally upset. I did not say anything, I just walked away. She came around the house and asked where I was going. I said, "I am going to the neighbors." I had seen the neighbor outside and decided to go and talk with him. I was gone for an hour and a half. I went back to my house and my W had put a tree in by herself. I said, "I wish you would have called me, I would have helped. You just went to the chiropractor today and I certainly would not want you to hurt yourself." She said, "You were gone for an hour and a half." I said, "So you are mad at me?" She said, "I'll do it myself." I said, "I am back and willing to help." She said angrily, "Well you know there is an extra shovel in the garage, you can get that and dig. I am using this one." I began to walk away and did not say anything. She yells, "So am I supposed to read your mind? Where are you going?" I said, "I am going to the garage to get the shovel. You know, when we first came out back today, you have been commenting and telling me how I am doing everything wrong. You ask for my opinion and then discount it. This is all very frustrating for me and does not make me happy." She did not say anything and I went and got the shovel. When I returned, she asked, "so what did you guys talk about?" This is interesting because she has not usually ever asked me something like this. In fact, her usual never asking has made me think she does not care. Now all of a sudden she is curious. This was a change. Anyway, I told her some of the things we discussed and we got on with planting things. I do not know if I reacted properly or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, EL, it’s a balance. You’ve had a couple of good weeks. I think that’s long enough to at least bring out some tentative feelers in that direction. You don’t want to haul the whole house of cards down on your head or anything but you can start making small steps in that direction. This is why it’s SO important that you do this in the relatively safe setting of MC. This is not a ‘go do this at home’ assignment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for clarifying that you are recomending doing this in the MC's office. I thought you did mean to try this at home. Do you think it is still relative that I try this at the MC after yesterday?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it’s likely that she will bounce in and out of withdrawal. The things you’re doing to fill her love bank and avoiding LB’s is going to help entice her out. Entering into conflict to resolve issues will bounce her back in. It’s going to be like that for a little while.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. Its going to suck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You ask the questions and let the MC coach your wife. (And, I’m crossing my fingers that the MC does coach her… )
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Crossing my toes!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am concerned that, if you frame the topic as “Why can’t we discuss our M?” in marriage counseling your wife is going to leap to the conclusion that you want to get her to consent to discussions at away from MC. She’s not ready for that yet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got it. Why do you think she is not ready for this? I know she is not, but why do you think shutting down communication, when you can see your partner is trying to move towards safer communications (through actions)? I do not get it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “I was sad when you asked me to give up our morning kiss together. I really value that expression of affection. It means so much for me to go off to work after a kiss – it just starts my day off on a good note. I understand that it might wake you up, and I’d like to ask you if it really bothers you a lot or if you’d be willing to continue that ritual?” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yesterday, I said to my W, "Honey, you know how you asked me to not wake you in the mornings to give you a kiss good-bye because you are tired?" She said, "Yes." I said, "Well, I very much look forward to our morning kiss good-bye. Just as you have told me how important it is for your mood to wakeup and see the sun light, it is equally important for me to have our affectionate good-bye kiss. It is what keeps me going throughout my day. You would not believe my attitude difference between having and not having our morning good-byes. However, I can understand how your need for sleep is important too. Therefore, I have a suggestion. How about, on the mornings that I can tell you are in a dead sleep, I give you a kiss on the head and leave you sleep. On those days that we do not get to say good-bye, how about, when you wake up, you give me a call and we can just have a quick chat to say have a great day or something? This would make all the difference to me." She looked at me strangely and said, "OK."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why don’t you tell me if you want more clarification?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I get what you are saying. Basically, bring up something like we have in all of our MC sessions that has ended up leading to an argument. However, no matter what, listen to my W and accept what she says even if she says something like (the sun is green). Totally agree and validate and see what effect this has. Hopefully it will make my W feel safer to open up further with me, maybe even at home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Bring it up in MC like I showed you *points up*. What I take from it is that she doesn’t know that you feel how you feel and her Magic 8 ball is on the fritz (those things are SO unreliable sometimes – mine keeps telling me “Ask again later” *sigh*). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I got our son one of those and it does not work as well as I remmember. I do not know how my W cannot know how I feel. I have done nothing but try and communicate and express exactly what I feel. Even the MC got my W to state to me that she understands how I feel, so that I would stop trying to communicate this to her.

I know all is going to be good with your house.

Take Care,

EL

Just reporting in on Saturday,

Hey, I have a question. Imagine that.

Basically, I have been working hard at maintaining a non-LBing and DJing life style, but I have started to notice my W slipping back into her old self at times. Now, I have not brought up anything that would be "conflict" yet and am now confused as to why she would slip in and out of withdrawl without any reason from me. I guess some people have their good and bad days and this could just be what is happening, but it certainly is not comforting that slipping back and forth can happen so easily. My W still has some characteristics of when she was depressed. I do not feel she is depressed any more, but she shows some symptoms. She does not keep the house clean, like she used to. I try to help on what I can. She is tired all the time and aching. We have discussed her seeing a neurologist. Perhaps she needs an MRI to get a good look at her back etc.. I don't know, but there just always seems to be something in the way if you know what I mean.

Anyway, have a good weekend everyone.

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have been way busy and have not had much time to jump on this site. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand busy! I’ll probably be scarce for a little while – we have painting, cleaning, and unpacking to do (not necessarily in that order).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you are saying. Thanks for the example by the way. I guess the only way for someone to make decisions like this (based on things they do not deem as important) is in part how happy they want to make the other person. If someone wants to make you happy, they are going to let what they would consider, logical thinking to be swayed in favor of the other. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, maybe. Part of the problem is that I think you communicate as a Thinker (T) and she experiences life as a Feeler (F). So, she might not realize that your logical, rational description is tied to how you FEEL because that’s not how she operates. In other words, she knows you think it’s a good idea, but until something resonates with her on a feeling level (different reasons) she might not make all those connections. (As a feeler, I think all kinds of things are good ideas but that doesn’t necessarily change how I feel about anything.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ironic, since this conflict is what got us where we are. I know, it was not the conflict, but rather how we dealt with the conflict. Now that I/(hopefully we) are learning new ways to handle this conflict we will be able to over come it and move on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, I told her some of the things we discussed and we got on with planting things. I do not know if I reacted properly or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you did fine about the shovel incident. You told her what had been happening and how you felt about it. It was a good example of doing your MC homework. You didn’t ask her to change; you only related how you felt. In fact, I think you should have been more assertive and honest about the grill issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for clarifying that you are recomending doing this in the MC's office. I thought you did mean to try this at home. Do you think it is still relative that I try this at the MC after yesterday? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know. Its going to suck. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awww… {{{{EL}}}}

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Got it. Why do you think she is not ready for this? I know she is not, but why do you think shutting down communication, when you can see your partner is trying to move towards safer communications (through actions)? I do not get it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh.. well, actually, I can think of lots of reasons but they are more emotional than rational. That means, they won’t make a lot of logical sense, necessarily. I just project myself into your W’s position and it’s like I can understand from a feeling sense that she’d be scared of a lot of things happening. She might be scared of conflict arising and not wanting to handle it. She might be scared of how she feels about the topics (guilt, resentment, fear) and her ability to handle those feelings and how much emotional energy she feels she can spend on them. You did mention she is tired a lot. Most of the reasons have less to do with you and probably more to do with how much she feels she can handle.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yesterday, I said to my W, "Honey, you know how you asked me to not wake you in the mornings to give you a kiss good-bye because you are tired?" She said, "Yes." I said, "Well, I very much look forward to our morning kiss good-bye. Just as you have told me how important it is for your mood to wakeup and see the sun light, it is equally important for me to have our affectionate good-bye kiss. It is what keeps me going throughout my day. You would not believe my attitude difference between having and not having our morning good-byes. However, I can understand how your need for sleep is important too. Therefore, I have a suggestion. How about, on the mornings that I can tell you are in a dead sleep, I give you a kiss on the head and leave you sleep. On those days that we do not get to say good-bye, how about, when you wake up, you give me a call and we can just have a quick chat to say have a great day or something? This would make all the difference to me." She looked at me strangely and said, "OK." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Good for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I get what you are saying. Basically, bring up something like we have in all of our MC sessions that has ended up leading to an argument. However, no matter what, listen to my W and accept what she says even if she says something like (the sun is green). Totally agree and validate and see what effect this has. Hopefully it will make my W feel safer to open up further with me, maybe even at home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. And, eventually, you do need to talk at home. Just not quite yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I got our son one of those and it does not work as well as I remmember. I do not know how my W cannot know how I feel. I have done nothing but try and communicate and express exactly what I feel. Even the MC got my W to state to me that she understands how I feel, so that I would stop trying to communicate this to her.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn’t mean in general, I meant about that one issue (kissing goodbye before you left). But, it sounds like you got that all worked out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know, but there just always seems to be something in the way if you know what I mean. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn’t this the truth? “There is always something… “ pretty much describes my life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I’m confused about what you mean by slipping back into her old ways. Do you mean her old ways of treating you? One reason for that might be that it’s a habit.. and like any other habit, it takes concentration to not do it. Over time, we tend to gravitate towards our habitual behavior. I’d be more surprised if she didn’t act the way she usually does. I don’t think it’s anything you’re doing wrong.

Now, your assignment this week is to pick ONE and ONLY ONE topic to bring up in MC this week. Then listen, listen, listen.

My assignment this week is to strip paint off the window frames, finish painting the bedroom, receive my household goods (Wed, yay!), and hopefully get the carpet laid by the weekend. I have an idea, let’s trade. I’ll go to MC for you, if you’ll strip those darn windows for me. *grins*

Mys

One powerful factor affecting your wife's moods can be her back. If she is 30 and broke a tail bone in child birth and exhibits the symtoms you describe emotionally and physcially, its pretty obvious that her core strength is next to nil.
Chronic stress can inflame and cause back pain and dealing with the pain can cause depression resulting in a recurring cycle. Check out recent back issues of Newsweek. They had an excellent feature article on backpain and how often it is mistreated.

Chiropractors are great for treating the symptoms, but not the causes of back pain. Like spending time in the warm hottub. Makes you feel better, but does absolutely nothing for the problem. They sell instant gratification. This is why, with out fail, people love their Chiropractors because they go and come back feeling better. But the solution is teaching her how to catch fish, instead of feeding her. How?

Considering the source of the pain, she needs to 1. Lengthen and strengthen all of the soft tissue in her lower back. That means, stretching, & ab exercises, Yoga/pilates is very, very effective.
2. Lengthen and strengthen her itilelio (sp) bands, gluts and hamstrings.
3. Pain=inflammation, so Ice, Ice and more Ice.

I believe you got some good advice on this previously. Back pain is insideous and very commonly will lead to depression and other symtoms.

When I reapplied myself to running and was training for a marathon, I started with chronic pain after a few mile work out. Now, 12, 16, 18 miles, you name it. No more pain ever. Further, my personal physician was NOT helpful and often less informed than I was. So I educated myself through the helf of a personal friend that is a pediatrician and a runner.

A good sports medicine physician would be a very good idea, or a good physical therapist, if you could coax her in this direction. All I know, is that it worked wonders for me and everyone I see in the gym @ 6:00 am incorporates core strength training into their daily routines. The internet has a wealth of info.

At 30 years old, she should have snapped back from a broken tailbone. Good news is you can start at any age, and the benefits multiply exponentionally across the spectrum of your mind/body wellbeing. Drugs, surgery, chiropractors, are far less effective over the long haul and far more costly. That's a fact. As Yogi Berra said "you can look it up."

Hey guys,

Hope all is well. I am still under a large amount of stress at work. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Although it could be a train!

Anyway, I had a couple of interesting days at home. Basically, my W has brought it to my attention (quite often) that I do not really contact my old friends or plan to do things with them (they live in other states). I usually do not have the time. If I am not at work, I am home trying to be a good dad or H. I have very little me time, but I am fine with this.

However, I got home Friday night and said hello to my W and S. I then noticed my neighbor across the stree was home and I said, "I'll be right back, I am going to go see our neighbor." I left and went across the street. I wanted to see how my neighbor was doing because he has had back issues and was evaluated for possible surgery that day. As I got to the neighbors garage, I my S and W ran up behind me. I said, "What going on?" My W said, "What are you doing?" I said, "I came over to see <neighbor>. I told you I would be back." She said, "You just left and I did not know what you were doing." I said, "I told you I was coming over here and I would be back." She said, "OK, well I am going home. I will see you in a couple of HOURS!" She left and went home. My S stayed with me. The neighbor even commented on what that was all about. I found this to be very interesting because, my getting home, saying hello and then going to the neighbors is something I had never done right away before. I think, even though my W gets on me about doing more things, it bothers her when I do.

Then I worked on Saturday. On Sunday, I had off and could not sleep. I got up early and went to pick up doughnuts for the W and S. I read the paper outside (I did not want to wake them up and it was nice, but cold to sit outside). My W wakes up and says, "What are you doing?" I told her and she appeared like it had bothered her. Again, this behavior was new for me and out of the norm. Then I started digging up some beds around our new patio because I did not want my W to do this because of her back. If I did not do this, she would do it, she is stubborn (but I like her stubborness at times). Meanwhile, I get a phone call from one of our other neighbors who asked if I wanted to meet him and his S for lunch and bring our S. I said, ok. An hour later I got another call from a neighbor who asked if I would help him with something with his plane. I said ok. I told my W that I was going to go with the one neighbor to help him with his plane and then take our S to lunch with the other neighbor and his S. She seemed fine with all this. I figured, she should be happy because I am doing what she has asked me to do, right? Wrong. Anyway, I go with one neighbor and work on his plane and we go for a short flight. I get home and pick up our S and my W is quite. I ask my W if she would like to go along for lunch and she says no. Then I ask if I can bring her something back. She first says no, then changes her mind. As my S and I are eating lunch, my cell rings and my W askes what we are doing. I find this strange because she does not usually show this kind of interest. I tell her we are eating. She asks if we are almost done. I tell her we will leave shortly, which was too bad because the other neighbor wanted to take the kids to the park. Anyway, we bring food back and my W barely eats anything. She remains in a bad mood for a couple of hours. Then she starts to order me around and tell me how I am doing things wrong again (I was helping her plant things and digging holes). I finally told her, "look, you are starting to tell me how I am doing every thing wrong again and it is bothering me." She stopped and said, "You have been in a mood ever since you got home." I said, "I am sorry you feel that way, but I am actually fine."

So what do you guys make of this change in my W's behavior. It is kind of like she has moved towards slightly clingy. She NEVER was clingy before, NEVER. So I do not know if this is a good thing and shows she is starting to care about things/us more or what. I am definitely not "playing" any games here. I am just taking a few moments to respect what she has asked me to do (a little more "me" time). So what gives?

Mys - Good luck with all of your list. Breath, Breath, Breath. It will all work out.

Managing2 - Good insight on the back thing. I agree with what you said.

I'll write more later.

EL

Hey EL,

I haven't been replying for awhile. Seems you've been getting lots of good advice and unfortunately I haven't had time to respond to your thread. Man, some of your conversations are pretty lengthy. That makes it hard to stay up-to-date.

Anyway I did have some time to read your last reply regarding your W's behavior and I wanted to respond.

As much as she wants to see you do things differently she has grown accustomed to your ways and has become comfortable with your habits. When you start to act a little differently she feels uncomfortable (even though it's what she ultimately wants you to do). It's a little strange for her and she's programmed herself to expect things to be a certain way.

I can't comment on the rest of her behavior but I did want to state that her clinginess may just be a symptom of her fear/anxiety/uncertainty regarding you doing things out of character. It's not a bad reaction that she had and if you continue to do those things she wants she will soon feel comfortable with it and you both will learn to accept it as the now normal pattern of your lives.

Maybe I misinterpreted the situation but I almost chuckled when you stated she followed you over to the neighbors to find out what was going on. She wanted you to change and when you did she thought 'what in the world is he doing?'. It sounded kind of cute and something I'd find interesting/entertaining if my W were to do the same thing.

It does sound like things are progressing for you. Maybe not exactly like you'd like or in the speed in which you'd like them to but I feel there has been some serious changes in your relationship. Keep up the good work and keep listening to what she's trying to tell you.

PS: I, too, suffer from lower back pain. I didn't break my tailbone but I have a condition where if I'm not careful my lower back muscles will spasm and I can be laid up until I can get them to relax. I noticed someone talked about chiropractors and strengthening techniques. My situation went like this: I was informed I have a weak lower back and I have restrictive flexibility in the muscles. So for years therapists had me doing stretching and strengthening exercises. I wasn't real diligent in doing the exercises but I did notice they gave me some relief. Yet after finally getting tired of the spasms I again when to another therapist last fall who was a physical therapist and chiropractor. He diagnosis was that, yes I do have weak lower back muscles but I actually have too much flexibility in the muscles that hold the lower back in place. His theory was that I was irritating my spine because the muscles there didn't hold everthing in place properly. Once the nerves were irritated my body would spasm the muscles to prevent further damage to the nerves. So in the end he had me quit doing the stretching exercises and had me do strengthening exercises that did not STRETCH the muscles.

I thought I'd offer this perspective so you could be aware there are different scenarios that could be at work here. Good luck in finding a solution for your W. I know my lower back pain does cause great tension for me and I become irritable and even irrational (yes I know that's a stretch for someone who's perfect like me .... ha-ha). And of course that can lead to me feeling quite depressed at times. Like I just wanted to give up because nothing seemed to help. I'm feeling better about my back now because it doesn't bother me near as much as it used to.

Take Care,

Jon

Hey guys,

Well just another MC update. I am a bit confused about the session again. Why is it when we go to MC, we (or I) feel further away from my W than before the session? I go into it with the best intentions and highest hopes. Anyway, I will post an update to get opinions.

I walked in with the recomendation by Mys on my mind. The MC asked how we have been. I let my W answer. She said, "OK." I shook my head in agreement. The MC asked about the wedding we went to two weekends ago. My W said it went good. The MC asked why it went good to me. I said, "I felt like there were some small subtle things that my W did that made me feel more comfortable. These small things were huge to me, but I just could not list them right now." My W said, "I do not think I did anything different. I think H was relaxed and participated in conversations and I did not feel like he was mad at me for no reason during the night. This is how things should be." The MC said, "So you are saying that H did this on his own because you did not change anything?" She said, "yes." The MC said, "Well that is a compliment to H. Did you take that as a compliment to you?" I said, "Initially I did not understand it as a compliment. I felt unheard and not validated because I felt my W did some subtle things that made me feel comfortable and helped me get through the night feeling ok." My W and MC accepted that my W did not do anything different and put it all on me that I had changed and my W did not. I accepted their POVs although I still do not agree with them.

Then we got on the discussion of how my W feels that I get upset with her if she does not ask me about my day or ask how I am doing if it is obvious I am not doing well. I feel both my W and I are a little guilty on this. This is where I fell off the cliff. I sighted the example I wrote about a little earlier about my coming home from work with this disaster I am dealing with at work and my W knows about it. When I got home, instead of asking about how I was doing (because she knew I was having MAJOR issues at work and they could directly effect our pocket book), she immediately hit me up with how bad her day was. This got my W very upset and she said, "Don't worry, you will never hear about my days again. Its not about your days being better or worse than mine." Wife folded arms. I said, "I understand that. I was not meaning to imply my day was better or worse. I definitely did not want this conversation going in this direction." The MC said, that I have a need to be asked how I am doing once in a while and to me it is a sign of my W showing me that she cares. She said, this my issue and is not fair to my W. I said, "Why am I such a bad person for thinking it is thoughtful once in a while for someone to ask their partner 'Hey, how are you doing?'?" The MC said I am not a bad person. My W made the point that it is hard for her to know when she should ask me and when she should not. She felt she was in a position where she could not do the right thing. I agreed that I could see her point.

Then I said to the MC that I am feeling like I am being told that all of the measuring sticks that I use to feel and know if someone loves me are wrong and should be disregarded. I am feeling like I am having what I know as reality for me, to be ripped out from under me. This is very scary for me and I am feeling uncertainty and lost. My W said, "You say you feel like everything you have learned about love is wrong, maybe you would feel better in a marriage if you found a twin that acted and cared about things the same way you do. I am not like this. I have never been like this and you knew this from the beginning." I said, "I do not want a twin. I just want us to be closer and be in love with eachother." My W said, "The only problem we have is affection, but I still go back to saying that if we were having sex everyday, you would be fine." I said, "This is not true." I know, I should have come up with something different instead of disagreeing with her POV, but I was taken by surprise. I then tried to recover and said, "Most men show love through a physical relationship." The MC stepped in and said, "That is not true, most men do not show love through a physical relationship. You do." It really bothered me that the MC disagreed with me and validated my W's position that it is basically ok to not have a physical relationship in a M. Then the MC said, "OK. Here is a homework assignment for you. I want you to right down the ways you measure love. Bring them to the next session and we will go through them. Then W can say, I can do that, I can't do that and we can go from there."

That was pretty much the summary of the session. Lets say, I accept my W's POV (like everyone recommends I should). Then her main underlying theme is that if we had sex, everything would be ok. Well, one has to ask, if she believes this is the solution to our problems then why doesn't she solve our problems? I get chocked up in trying to respond to her statements about a physical relationship because, I definitely do not want to validate her opinion that I am a shallow person who only cares about the physical side. I am much more than this. I feel she treats me cold in other aspects than just the physical side. I feel we just keep going in circles.

Leaving this session, I have feelings of anger, sadness, shock, surprise and confusion. Usually, when I leave these sessions I feel like I am at the closest emotionally to leaving the M. I do not understand my feelings. I am a romantic at heart. My W is not. All I want is to simply be in love with my W and for her to be in love with me, both emotionally and physically. What do I do? Why does it seem like I cannot really move forward. I felt we had made progress and BIG things on my end had been recognized and changed and noticed by my W. Yet my W still brings up the "if we had sex everyday, you would be ok and not have a problem and thats all there is to it" thing. I feel like I have never moved off the starting line from 5 months ago, this is where my sadness comes from.

Please give me perspective on this. Please be fair and not attacking today.

Thanks,

EL

Hi there

(((((EL)))))

sorry that MC was rough for you. I'm going to put on my positive hat though - I actually think you are making great progress!

About the wedding convo... that is a tough one. The ideal would be to sayt hat you both changed a little and came to a place where your behaviors made it easier ont he both of you. That way it is placing responsibility for the original problem ON both of you (not saying one or the other had to change). When you said it was all your wife, and when she said it was all you - it is uncomfortable because the logical conclusion is then that the problem was all you (or her). Sharing is best. As it was, you did a good job in trying to accept what your wife said as a compliment. This can only benefit you in the end becuase she is acknowledging that you CAN change and you CAN make things better. Good news!

As to the sex part... say this to your self a hundered times:

"W, the sex part is important to me and it does hurt me that we are not having SF. But it is important to me because I want to be close and connected to you. And these other things that we need to work on are also about us feeling more close and connected, and so they are important too."

Or something like that (where is Mys with her great prose?!)

It is fine to admit that you want sex (build agreement where you can), but to also emphasize why sex is importnat to you (closeness) and how you recognize that achieving that goal means fixing other things too.

And finally - about feeling farther apart after MC... I think that is exactly how it should be. MC is helping you into conflict and helping learn to work through conflict successfully. It is like surgery - maybe painful and certainly creates it's own wound that needs to be healed, but in the end it is also curing the greater disease. One thing you could do to help the situation ist ry to be kind and loving or reconciliatory (without losing yourself) afterwards.

like saying: "W, I know that MC is sometimes hard for us both. I am so glad that we are doing it though. I hope we can come closer together through it as we work out all this hard stuff"

Something that acknowledges (with lots of WE language) that MC is hard and good and you're glad for it and glad for her.

HTH!
lfc

Also...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then the MC said, "OK. Here is a homework assignment for you. I want you to right down the ways you measure love. Bring them to the next session and we will go through them. Then W can say, I can do that, I can't do that and we can go from there."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds a lot like your MC is asking for you to list your ENs!!! Yay!!!! This is your chance to really think about what is important to you. I think it is a good time to maybe talk about the things besides SF that are important to you, but to also include SF and affectionate touch with the reasons HOW and WHY it makes you feel loved (i.e. it is about closeness and not just getting some)

lfc

Hello LFC,

Thanks for responding. I really needed to hear from someone. I feel like my entire insides have been ripped out after this session today. It is just making me so sick inside, because I really love my W and I very much want her to be happy. In fact, I love her so much, that if she felt she needed to leave me to be happy, I would help her. Not that I would want her to leave, but you know what I mean. I have learned so much and my eyes have really opened up over these past 5 months. It is truly a shame that my W is not able or willing to move forward a little quicker. I really do not know what she truly wants. I have asked her and she says she wants our M. I believe she understands how she is hurting me and yet, she does not seem to be able to stop and move on. I have been working really hard on trying to recognize what is important to my W and work on filling her needs, all the while putting my biggest need aside. But once in a while she brings my biggest need up and uses it to make me feel bad/guilty for having this need. This is not the behavior of a person who loves someone in my book.

I just do not understand why she brings up "if we were having sex, everything would be ok." I have worked rediculously hard to SHOW her this is not the case. You know the most ironic part is that I have been feeling less interested in her sexually lately. The only reason this has even become my biggest need, is because my W has denied me the fullfillment of this need for so long. When we had tried to talk about it in the past, she has said, it is not important because she does not need it anymore. Thats pretty one sided. Anyway, all these old feelings are starting to be drudged up because of her statement today. I felt it was unfair for her to say and she knew it would be pretty hurtful based on our whole past and what has happened when she has said this before.

I am just so confused now. I feel like my love bank has been drained substantially from today. I feel like I am stupid for thinking we were progressing after she said what she did. This is why walking away has entered my mind as I left the MC. Believe me I am committed to fixing our M, but I am just so sad and hurt right now. I do not know what to even do/say when I get home tonight.

She actually has a "board" meeting tonight and will be gone from 6:00 PM - 10:00 PM. I have to watch one of the neighbor kids along with our S tonight. I do not even feel like going home. How awful is that!

Thanks for taking the time today.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>
I walked in with the recomendation by Mys on my mind. The MC asked how we have been. I let my W answer. She said, "OK." I shook my head in agreement. The MC asked about the wedding we went to two weekends ago. My W said it went good. The MC asked why it went good to me. I said, "I felt like there were some small subtle things that my W did that made me feel more comfortable. These small things were huge to me, but I just could not list them right now." My W said, "I do not think I did anything different. I think H was relaxed and participated in conversations and I did not feel like he was mad at me for no reason during the night. This is how things should be." The MC said, "So you are saying that H did this on his own because you did not change anything?" She said, "yes." The MC said, "Well that is a compliment to H. Did you take that as a compliment to you?" I said, "Initially I did not understand it as a compliment. I felt unheard and not validated because I felt my W did some subtle things that made me feel comfortable and helped me get through the night feeling ok." My W and MC accepted that my W did not do anything different and put it all on me that I had changed and my W did not. I accepted their POVs although I still do not agree with them.
</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa, wait, did the MC actually come right out and say, "so we're all in agreement that the change was all on EL's part, and Mrs. EL did not change?"

It sounds like you're jumping to an unwarranted conclusion here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>
Then we got on the discussion of how my W feels that I get upset with her if she does not ask me about my day or ask how I am doing if it is obvious I am not doing well. I feel both my W and I are a little guilty on this. This is where I fell off the cliff. I sighted the example I wrote about a little earlier about my coming home from work with this disaster I am dealing with at work and my W knows about it. When I got home, instead of asking about how I was doing (because she knew I was having MAJOR issues at work and they could directly effect our pocket book), she immediately hit me up with how bad her day was. This got my W very upset and she said, "Don't worry, you will never hear about my days again. Its not about your days being better or worse than mine." Wife folded arms. I said, "I understand that. I was not meaning to imply my day was better or worse. I definitely did not want this conversation going in this direction." The MC said, that I have a need to be asked how I am doing once in a while and to me it is a sign of my W showing me that she cares. She said, this my issue and is not fair to my W. I said, "Why am I such a bad person for thinking it is thoughtful once in a while for someone to ask their partner 'Hey, how are you doing?'?"
</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, that was really disrespectful and manipulative behavior on your part. No one said anything about you being a bad person. Asking your question that way was really out of line.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>
The MC said I am not a bad person. My W made the point that it is hard for her to know when she should ask me and when she should not. She felt she was in a position where she could not do the right thing. I agreed that I could see her point.

Then I said to the MC that I am feeling like I am being told that all of the measuring sticks that I use to feel and know if someone loves me are wrong and should be disregarded. I am feeling like I am having what I know as reality for me, to be ripped out from under me. This is very scary for me and I am feeling uncertainty and lost. My W said, "You say you feel like everything you have learned about love is wrong, maybe you would feel better in a marriage if you found a twin that acted and cared about things the same way you do. I am not like this. I have never been like this and you knew this from the beginning." I said, "I do not want a twin. I just want us to be closer and be in love with eachother." My W said, "The only problem we have is affection, but I still go back to saying that if we were having sex everyday, you would be fine." I said, "This is not true." I know, I should have come up with something different instead of disagreeing with her POV, but I was taken by surprise. I then tried to recover and said, "Most men show love through a physical relationship." The MC stepped in and said, "That is not true, most men do not show love through a physical relationship. You do." It really bothered me that the MC disagreed with me and validated my W's position that it is basically ok to not have a physical relationship in a M.
</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa, another unwarranted conclusion. I don't see anywhere that your wife said any such thing or that your MC validated it.

It sounds like the MC was trying to get you to take ownership of your own feelings and wishes. "Most men are like this" is a cop-out, since "most men" are not married to your wife. "Most men are like this so you should accept it" is not only a cop-out, it's manipulative since it essentially tries to assign responsibility away from yourself for who you are. Simply owning that your wishes and feelings are your own for good or for ill is much more honest, direct, and much more likely to come out in a respectful fashion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>
Then the MC said, "OK. Here is a homework assignment for you. I want you to right down the ways you measure love. Bring them to the next session and we will go through them. Then W can say, I can do that, I can't do that and we can go from there."
</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like overall things went pretty well then: Your concerns were heard, that how you understand love to be shown needs to matter, and that is being addressed in the homework and next session. As lfc said, it's basically a discussion of ENs, so it sounds like great progress to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>
That was pretty much the summary of the session. Lets say, I accept my W's POV (like everyone recommends I should). Then her main underlying theme is that if we had sex, everything would be ok. Well, one has to ask, if she believes this is the solution to our problems then why doesn't she solve our problems? </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously it doesn't solve all the problems for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>
I get chocked up in trying to respond to her statements about a physical relationship because, I definitely do not want to validate her opinion that I am a shallow person who only cares about the physical side. I am much more than this. I feel she treats me cold in other aspects than just the physical side. I feel we just keep going in circles.

Leaving this session, I have feelings of anger, sadness, shock, surprise and confusion. Usually, when I leave these sessions I feel like I am at the closest emotionally to leaving the M. I do not understand my feelings. I am a romantic at heart. My W is not. All I want is to simply be in love with my W and for her to be in love with me, both emotionally and physically. What do I do? Why does it seem like I cannot really move forward. I felt we had made progress and BIG things on my end had been recognized and changed and noticed by my W. Yet my W still brings up the "if we had sex everyday, you would be ok and not have a problem and thats all there is to it" thing. I feel like I have never moved off the starting line from 5 months ago, this is where my sadness comes from.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, if I type I THINK YOU DID GOOD really big, will it help? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Because I think some of this is happening because you really have made a difference. I think your wife has started to get the idea it's really not all about sex with you, but she's still really hurt from having felt like it was in the past, and so what she wants it to be reassured on that point about a thousand billion times. I think the frequency of the "you just want sex" remarks may go up for a bit *because* you've made progress, because she's starting to feel secure that you will respond, not like you did, but like you outlined, explaining that being close to her in all ways really matters to you a lot. I think she wants to hear that reassurance a whole lot, and that's the only way she can think of to ask for it.

Hey, here's an idea:

Maybe next week in MC you could make a request, explaining that it matters to you and you want to hear about it whenever your wife is feeling like everything might be fine for you if you had sex, but it would really help you a lot if she could phrase it as a question or use a gentle instead of hostile tone.

If you did this, you'd need to reiterate several times that you really want to hear about it whenever she is feeling this way, because you feel horrible that she's ever felt this way and you want to do anything you can to make her feel better, and her being able to tell you about feeling that way is part of that. Then reaffirm you'd just like her to use a different tone of voice when she does.

Hey mineownself,

Thanks for responding. I am just feeling down right now. Thanks for questioning me and keeping me honest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoa, wait, did the MC actually come right out and say, "so we're all in agreement that the change was all on EL's part, and Mrs. EL did not change?"

It sounds like you're jumping to an unwarranted conclusion here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, I wish I was jumping to a conclusion, but the MC did actually say this. She said, "What your W is saying is that you are the one that changed. It is comming from with in you. I agree that this is something with in you."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow, that was really disrespectful and manipulative behavior on your part. No one said anything about you being a bad person. Asking your question that way was really out of line.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry. Call me ignorant or accuse me of just not getting it, but I do not see how this is disrespectful. My reason is simple. In all of the joint counseling sessions, the MC and my W have put things in the perspective that I must change all of my views, ideas and concepts about our M. I found this difficult to accept, but through discussing things on this website with you guys, I opened up my views further than I knew I could and I tried, I really tried to be open to all different views and even discount some of my views. However, I am in a M where one of my main views is that in an important and unique partnership such as M, it is important that both persons work together. It is highly destructive to set blame on one individual. After all, if one person is unhappy, the M is unhappy. Therefore, I became somewhat frustrated today by being told that it is not fair of me to think that from time to time, my partner may ask me how I am doing or am I ok. So, I think my question was fair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoa, another unwarranted conclusion. I don't see anywhere that your wife said any such thing or that your MC validated it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not understand why you are calling this an unwarranted conclusion. It was a statement as to how I feel. I feel like the things or measuring sticks I have used all of my life to determine "love" are no longer valid. This is how I feel, not what anyone has told me. Therefore, it is not a conclusion, just how I feel. Therefore, my feelings are valid. For example, it is as if, I am being instructed that if I put my hand on a red glowing burner on top of the stove, it is not hot. You see, I have learned through my years that doing this is hot and will burn me, but know I am being asked to accept that it is not hot. I have used a wacky example to help you guys identify with what I am meaning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like the MC was trying to get you to take ownership of your own feelings and wishes. "Most men are like this" is a cop-out, since "most men" are not married to your wife. "Most men are like this so you should accept it" is not only a cop-out, it's manipulative since it essentially tries to assign responsibility away from yourself for who you are. Simply owning that your wishes and feelings are your own for good or for ill is much more honest, direct, and much more likely to come out in a respectful fashion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a fair point. However, my W is big into bringing up things like "averages" and "most people." I agree these things are not truly relevant in our M. Unfortunately, for some reason, my W gives these things relevance. I was trying to operate with in her way of looking at things. Besides, There are many posts here that have stated the same thing about men needing to show their love through physical means more than emotional. Why is it wrong for me to say these things? I still believe it is true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It sounds like overall things went pretty well then: Your concerns were heard, that how you understand love to be shown needs to matter, and that is being addressed in the homework and next session. As lfc said, it's basically a discussion of ENs, so it sounds like great progress to me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that you put it this way, I guess you are right. I did not see the big picture on this. I guess it is an EN discussion, finally. Unfortunately it is a bit one sided. The MC did not ask my W to come up with the same list. I do not want my W to feel as though this is one sided either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Obviously it doesn't solve all the problems for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Likewise, it would not solve all the problems for me either. But it would go a fair distance towards improving our closeness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey, if I type I THINK YOU DID GOOD really big, will it help? Because I think some of this is happening because you really have made a difference. I think your wife has started to get the idea it's really not all about sex with you, but she's still really hurt from having felt like it was in the past, and so what she wants it to be reassured on that point about a thousand billion times. I think the frequency of the "you just want sex" remarks may go up for a bit *because* you've made progress, because she's starting to feel secure that you will respond, not like you did, but like you outlined, explaining that being close to her in all ways really matters to you a lot. I think she wants to hear that reassurance a whole lot, and that's the only way she can think of to ask for it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you are right, because I get really confused and hurt when I hear her say it is only about sex for me. She has said this many times in the past. I do not know nor do I understand how this time is different. I do hope your thoughts are correct, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe next week in MC you could make a request, explaining that it matters to you and you want to hear about it whenever your wife is feeling like everything might be fine for you if you had sex, but it would really help you a lot if she could phrase it as a question or use a gentle instead of hostile tone.

If you did this, you'd need to reiterate several times that you really want to hear about it whenever she is feeling this way, because you feel horrible that she's ever felt this way and you want to do anything you can to make her feel better, and her being able to tell you about feeling that way is part of that. Then reaffirm you'd just like her to use a different tone of voice when she does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a really good idea. You see, it is these kinds of ideas that I am looking for from this post. Thank you.

Take Care,

EL

OK,

So I need to do a list of the things I use to measure "love." The reason for doing this is to understand if the way I measure "love" is incorrect or abnormal according to my last MC session. I could use some help from you guys with the list. Here is my first shot and it is not in order of importance. Remember, the MC said, "Bring your list to the next session and we will go through it and ask W what she can do and what she can't do."

1) Admiration: I feel more in love with someone when they show me admiration for the things I do, especially for them. Thinking about it, it is not as much admiration as it is appreciation for sacrafices. When I do not feel as though the things I do are appreciated, I do not feel as in "love" with someone. In fact, I feel quite the opposite. Things that show me appreciation: mostly the little things, concern about my day, positive comments relating to things I am doing instead of negative comments.

2) Affection: Affection is a tride and true measuring stick for me as to someone in "love" with me. If a person is affectionate towards me, I definitely feel closer to them. Ways I like affection shown to me include: seeing my W's face lite up when I walk into the room; terms of endearment from my W a couple times a day (things like "you mean a lot to me," or "you make me so happy"); a simple touch that shows my W was thinking of me (a hand on my leg, the grabbing of an arm or hand, a hug from behind, an unannounced or expected kiss).

3) Physical Intimacy: This is definitely a yard stick I use to measure someone being in "love" with me. This is the main way I feel close or connected to someone. It is the ultimate form of my partner trusting me, through them being open and "letting themselves go" with me. Being physically intimate is allowing one's self to be vulnerable to another. This vulnerability and trust is something I find extremely attractive and cherish. I would never want to do anything to make my partner not feel comfortable with this vulnerability. Ways that I like physical intimacy: sometimes I like to just make out (although my W does not know this about me because we never got to explore what each other likes/dislikes or is open to when it comes to SF); other times I would just like OS; most of the time I would just like a full encounter (desired frequency would be 1 - 2 times per week).

4) Feeling Needed: I am not talking about wanting a needy spouse. Basically, the feeling of being needed once in a while makes me get a feeling of being irreplacable. It makes me feel special to a person and with this I gain a further feeling of love for this person.

5) Feeling of self: I am really in love with someone if I can tell that they have remained themselves, while at the same time made me the biggest part of their life. This means, not sacraficing our relationship for the sake of remaining who they think they are. It means a person finding a way to remain who they are, while joining me into their life. I get kind of turned off if I see a person who used to be a clean freak, change later on and not care about cleaning as much. This shows me that they have stopped caring aboout things.

6) Bossyness: I am not attracted to someone who bosses me around. In fact, I find myself pushing this person away.

Well, there are many more things I use to measure love, but these are some of the bigger ones. I do not have much time right now. I will get back to this post a little later.

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> OK, So I need to do a list of the things I use to measure "love." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it's been mentioned on this forum before, but if you haven't already done so you might want to look at the Five Love Languages book which talks about how different people give and perceive love to their SO's. This might be helpful to you.