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I am very pleased to read in "Buyers, renters & freeloaders", something I always thought was not right and some even use their martyrdom to play victim.. even though to some people's mindset sacrifice is something one is suppose to do in their marriage.
I am a Christian but why is that sacrifice is something to be embraced in a Christian marriage to some (or many)? Where the idea of sacrifice in marriage comes from?
Married/97.
No kids.
husband addictions
Separated/06
husband affair
Divorce/07.
back dating/12.
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I am very pleased to read in "Buyers, renters & freeloaders", something I always thought was not right and some even use their martyrdom to play victim.. even though to some people's mindset sacrifice is something one is suppose to do in their marriage.
I am a Christian but why is that sacrifice is something to be embraced in a Christian marriage to some (or many)? Where the idea of sacrifice in marriage comes from? Have you seen this? What's Wrong with Unconditional Love? #2
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Thanks Brainhurts! 
Married/97.
No kids.
husband addictions
Separated/06
husband affair
Divorce/07.
back dating/12.
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i read Dr. H article on unconditiional love, and it was thought provoking
so sacrifice is not good in relationship, hmm
but you know right from our infancy we have been taught from school and church and home to sometimes sacrifice (if not all the time)
i also taught there are times if you sacrifice at a point your partner feels ashamed of thier behaviour and start to change
but it seems that is not the way it goes as described by Dr. H
it should rather be a mutual committement, but doesnt that seem like tit for tat, ie i would only be good if you are good?
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MB believes that sacrifice is poisonous to a relationship because it is fundamentally dishonest.
To take a simplistic example: If your spouse asks if you would be ok taking your annual vacation to visit his parents and you agree to do this but are not enthusiastic, you are lying to him.
Not only has he received an incorrect message (that you enjoy in-law vacations) but also you are at some point going to want a reward for your sacrifice. Worse, you might even feel like punishing your spouse for putting you through this by being sour for the entire two weeks.
As you never told him you were not enthusiastic, he does not understand why you are behaving this way. When you organise a 'reward myself' vacation next year with your girlfriends without him, you trigger a cascading round of revenge behaviour that will eventually destroy your marriage.
3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
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The problem with sacrifice is that is creates resentment and incompatibility. Dishonesty is a separate issue entirely. People who sacrifice tend to keep score and when the score is not kept even, they resort to demands. Sacrifice is not a bad thing in and of itself, but it is bad in marriages.
"i also taught there are times if you sacrifice at a point your partner feels ashamed of thier behaviour and start to change"
In other words, you are expecting something in return for your sacrifice, which means it is not sacrifice, but a quid pro quo. And when they don't change, as they usually don't, resentment ensues. Better to avoid sacrifice and make decisions about which there is mutual enthusiasm.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The problem with sacrifice is that is creates resentment and incompatibility. Dishonesty is a separate issue entirely. People who sacrifice tend to keep score and when the score is not kept even, they resort to demands. I don't think we are really in disagreement here. The dishonesty I was referring to was that because you are keeping score, it is not actually a 'sacrifice'. You have an agenda. Worse is when you feign enthusiasm - that takes dishonesty to another level.
3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
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Well, they really are separate things because people who sacrifice don't tend to be aware they are keeping score so they are not really being dishonest. People don't typically "feign" enthusiasm, though. A spouse might make a grudging agreement and those should be avoided at all cost.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The problem with sacrifice is that is creates resentment and incompatibility. Dishonesty is a separate issue entirely. People who sacrifice tend to keep score and when the score is not kept even, they resort to demands. Sacrifice is not a bad thing in and of itself, but it is bad in marriages.
"i also taught there are times if you sacrifice at a point your partner feels ashamed of thier behaviour and start to change"
In other words, you are expecting something in return for your sacrifice, which means it is not sacrifice, but a quid pro quo. And when they don't change, as they usually don't, resentment ensues. Better to avoid sacrifice and make decisions about which there is mutual enthusiasm. I agree ... when you sacrifice in your marriage you are doing it at your expense. I think it is inherent in all of us that we don't want to be a doormat. If you read the book Giver and Taker you begin to understand we have them both and both are good. Sacrifice imbalances them and in the relationship one often becomes the strong taker and the other the strong giver. When one sacrifices after years and years and years your Taker automatically starts to rear its head and you demand equal treatment. You angrily demand that now it is your turn.
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To qualify, in Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders, Dr. Harley says that short-term sacrifice can be ok in some circumstances as long as a couple agrees on it and it's for their mutual long-term benefit. Long-term sacrifice, however, is destructive.
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I am very pleased to read in "Buyers, renters & freeloaders", something I always thought was not right and some even use their martyrdom to play victim.. even though to some people's mindset sacrifice is something one is suppose to do in their marriage.
I am a Christian but why is that sacrifice is something to be embraced in a Christian marriage to some (or many)? Where the idea of sacrifice in marriage comes from? In a Christian marriage, the church marries the couple and it is a Sacrament. God commanded Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply. Christ uses the Institution of Marriage as a picture of His salvation plan. In fact Christ refers to the Church as His bride and Himself as the Bridegroom. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, even laying down His life for it. You asked the question why sacrifice is to be embraced. Christ calls us to take up our crosses and follow Him. We may be in poverty, in addictions, bad marriages, war or any other hardship. Yet God wants us to lay our cares at the feet of the Holy Cross. Saint Paul, as he was arrested in the synagogue for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, knew that he would be sent to Rome and martyred. Yet he did not complain. He could have tried to leave the ministry and say he was tired of sacrificing. He could have said that his taker wanted him to abandoned Gods direction for him. But Paul was faithful till the end and the Book of Acts records how thousands of people were touched by his life on his journey to martyrdom. In a Christian marriage sacrifice is sometimes necessary. I witnessed my grandmother care for her husband that was blind and senile for many years. She set an example of showing care, when she received none due to his physical and mental condition. God commands husbands and wives to love one another. The MB program helps couples meet that and remain in love. However even some MB couples may face issues of mental or physical disabilities and may need to sacrifice if they wish to be faithful to the Sacrament of marriage
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When one sacrifices after years and years and years your Taker automatically starts to rear its head and you demand equal treatment. You angrily demand that now it is your turn. Exactamundo! Givers keep score and when the score is not even, the taker monster comes out. And Jedi is correct, Dr Harley most certainly recommends that a spouse take care of an ailing spouse. [sacrifice] But spouses don't get resentful when they are taking care of a spouse who CAN'T meet their needs in return. They do get very resentful, however, when sacrifice is unreciprocated.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[Saint Paul, as he was arrested in the synagogue for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, knew that he would be sent to Rome and martyred. Yet he did not complain. He could have tried to leave the ministry and say he was tired of sacrificing. He could have said that his taker wanted him to abandoned Gods direction for him. But Paul was faithful till the end and the Book of Acts records how thousands of people were touched by his life on his journey to martyrdom. I am not sure why you posted this, it sounds like you are trying to mock Dr Harley. It is not analogous to Dr. Harley's advice and makes no sense in the context of a marriage. Dr Harley is not against sacrifice in general; he is against sacrifice in marriage. Because it destroys marriages and CANNOT BE supported biblically.. It is a dangerous concept that can ruin marriages.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Harley addresses his stance on sacrifice and unconditional love from a biblical standpoint in this article: I Corinthians 13 defines love in both positive and negative terms, so first of all, let's see what it tells us that it's not. It's not "giving all I possess to the poor and surrendering my body to the flames" (verse 3), because those things can be done without love. So, apparently, love isn�t sacrifice. It�s something else. In verse 4 we find more that it is not: It's not envy, it doesn't lead to boasting, it is not proud, rude, or self-seeking. It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, and doesn't delight in evil. Do you get the picture so far? It's more a state of mind than a pattern of behavior, although certain behavior does indicate that a person doesn't have the right state of mind.
The keeping a record of wrongs is an interesting indication that you don't have love. There are many spouses who can�t seem to let go of past offenses, such as infidelity. Does that mean they don�t love when they�re trying to give their unfaithful spouse another chance? God doesn't keep such a record of those who He loves (Psalms 103:11-12). But even in this context, His love is conditional because it�s reserved only for those who fear Him. I interpret that to mean those who are in a relationship with Him.
I draw a distinction between the love of a couple trying to restore their relationship, and the love of a couple with the relationship fully restored. In the former case, records of past offenses are definitely kept (and should be). Love has not been restored, at least for the betrayed spouse. I must remind that person to avoid talking about the affair. But in the latter case, the betrayed spouse really does leave the past behind.
Now that we know what love isn�t according to the passage, what is love? Love rejoices in truth, protects, trusts, hopes, and perseveres (verses 6-7). I'm not sure I know what all of that means. I think I get the �protects� and �perseveres� parts, but the �rejoicing in truth,� �trusting,� and �hoping� is confusing. I might guess how it might apply to marriage, but others could rightfully disagree with me because the meaning and application isn't clear.
In trying to understand what love means in this chapter, the emphasis of love over faith, especially in the last verse, is very illuminating. Paul can't possibly be talking about faith in Jesus Christ since we are saved by faith, (John 5:24). According to every witness, including Paul, the writer of I Corinthians, nothing is more important than that, and we develop an understanding of love through our faith in Christ. Instead, he must be talking about a generic faith (removing mountains) and a generic love. He's saying that it's more important that we love than it is that we have the power of faith. And with that, I can't agree with him more. But when it comes to God's love, the love we are to try to emulate, I find nothing in this chapter to indicate that it's unconditional.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Melody That is not true.
I did not mock Dr Harley
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Melody That is not true.
I did not mock Dr Harley So what was your purpose when you criticized Dr Harley's principle about sacrifice by misapplying it to the Apostle Paul?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Harley addresses his stance on sacrifice and unconditional love from a biblical standpoint in this article: I Corinthians 13 defines love in both positive and negative terms, so first of all, let's see what it tells us that it's not. It's not "giving all I possess to the poor and surrendering my body to the flames" (verse 3), because those things can be done without love. So, apparently, love isn�t sacrifice. It�s something else. In verse 4 we find more that it is not: It's not envy, it doesn't lead to boasting, it is not proud, rude, or self-seeking. It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, and doesn't delight in evil. Do you get the picture so far? It's more a state of mind than a pattern of behavior, although certain behavior does indicate that a person doesn't have the right state of mind.
The keeping a record of wrongs is an interesting indication that you don't have love. There are many spouses who can�t seem to let go of past offenses, such as infidelity. Does that mean they don�t love when they�re trying to give their unfaithful spouse another chance? God doesn't keep such a record of those who He loves (Psalms 103:11-12). But even in this context, His love is conditional because it�s reserved only for those who fear Him. I interpret that to mean those who are in a relationship with Him.
I draw a distinction between the love of a couple trying to restore their relationship, and the love of a couple with the relationship fully restored. In the former case, records of past offenses are definitely kept (and should be). Love has not been restored, at least for the betrayed spouse. I must remind that person to avoid talking about the affair. But in the latter case, the betrayed spouse really does leave the past behind.
Now that we know what love isn�t according to the passage, what is love? Love rejoices in truth, protects, trusts, hopes, and perseveres (verses 6-7). I'm not sure I know what all of that means. I think I get the �protects� and �perseveres� parts, but the �rejoicing in truth,� �trusting,� and �hoping� is confusing. I might guess how it might apply to marriage, but others could rightfully disagree with me because the meaning and application isn't clear.
In trying to understand what love means in this chapter, the emphasis of love over faith, especially in the last verse, is very illuminating. Paul can't possibly be talking about faith in Jesus Christ since we are saved by faith, (John 5:24). According to every witness, including Paul, the writer of I Corinthians, nothing is more important than that, and we develop an understanding of love through our faith in Christ. Instead, he must be talking about a generic faith (removing mountains) and a generic love. He's saying that it's more important that we love than it is that we have the power of faith. And with that, I can't agree with him more. But when it comes to God's love, the love we are to try to emulate, I find nothing in this chapter to indicate that it's unconditional. The fact is that Gods love is unconditional. We have NOTHING good to offer God. Our good works are as filthy rags in the eyes of God. The bible says that As we were still sinners Christ died for us. Nobody deserves to be saved. The bible says "There is none righteous, no not one" and that we are saved of grace and not of good works.
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Melody I didn't misapply the reference to Saint Paul.
The poster asked why there is sacrifice in Christianity.
I answered the question
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The fact is that Gods love is unconditional. Complete nonsense. That is a false teaching.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Melody I didn't misapply the reference to Saint Paul.
The poster asked why there is sacrifice in Christianity.
I answered the question She asked about sacrifice in MARRIAGE. You misapplied it. Paul was not married so you took it out of context.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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