Re: snoring - have you seen a DR about it? My H used to snore horribly - he had a deviated septum (nose problem) and after the surgery, he stopped snoring.

Heh, lfc put it much better than I did.

The fundamental issue here is that your wife must have plenty of high-quality uninterrupted sleep.

Why not sleep on the couch yourself until your snoring issue is resolved?

Hey guys,

Mineownself & LFC - I see your points. Thanks for slapping me back to reality. I just read mineownself is an engineer! Cool, we have this in common.

Deja Vu - I am looking into seeing a doctor. I do not want to risk a life of not sharing a bed with my W. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thanks guys,

EL

We have the same problem as I am a light sleeper and my husband snores. The only time i can sleep with him all night long is if I have ear plugs in and have taken at least 5MG of Valium.

Otherwise, it ruins my sleep therfore ruining my day the next day also.

We have compensated to add intimacy in these ways. It works well and no one feels left out.

1. I cuddle in bed with him until he falls asleep then I go to the other room. In the morning, when I hear his alarm go off, I go in and snuggle up to him. It is almost as if I was there all night long!

2. On the weekends, we sometimes eat in bed and nap together. Naps are OK since there is "no pressure to get a good sleep". Also, he seems to snore less on a nap for some reason.

3. We get lots of cuddle time in otherwise so it is enough for us. We are not required to sleep in the same bed all the time.


Also, I have back problems and if I cannot have freedom to twist and turn in the night, like if he is there restricting my movement, my back can get much worse the next day, but if I am in the queen bed in guestroom, I can streach, twist, turn, etc with no pain and in the morning, I am not in pain.

Two things I worry about here. You did not care that your wife got a good sleep as much as you cared that YOU got to wake up next to her. This shows a narrow view of things. You are looking at it from how it would benefit YOU only.

Secondly, sleeping on a couch will hurt your wife's back worse since there is usually not great support. (Some couches are better than your bed on support, it depends) You need to have a guest room with a decent new bed in there so her back can heal. I know, I have back problems!

Baba,

Thanks for the input! I do appreciate your views.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. I cuddle in bed with him until he falls asleep then I go to the other room. In the morning, when I hear his alarm go off, I go in and snuggle up to him. It is almost as if I was there all night long!

2. On the weekends, we sometimes eat in bed and nap together. Naps are OK since there is "no pressure to get a good sleep". Also, he seems to snore less on a nap for some reason.

3. We get lots of cuddle time in otherwise so it is enough for us. We are not required to sleep in the same bed all the time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds like a good way of dealing with things, very logical. I do not see this happening with us because my W is not a morning person and would most likely not get up in the AM when my alarm goes off because she usually sleeps past it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, I have back problems and if I cannot have freedom to twist and turn in the night, like if he is there restricting my movement, my back can get much worse the next day, but if I am in the queen bed in guestroom, I can streach, twist, turn, etc with no pain and in the morning, I am not in pain.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this. We have a big enough bed that my W has all the room she needs on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Two things I worry about here. You did not care that your wife got a good sleep as much as you cared that YOU got to wake up next to her. This shows a narrow view of things. You are looking at it from how it would benefit YOU only. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I would like to address your two fair points. On this first one, yes I am concerned about my W and her getting a good nights sleep. I have climbed through many a hoop to try and help her achieve this. Unfortunately, she will not do some of the things she needs to to achieve this, yet complains when she does not get a good sleep. Before the 2x4's fly, I am really being fair here. She gets up in the middle of the night for a smoke. Aside from smoking being bad for you, a person should not get up if they cannot sleep through the night. This only trains your body to get up at that time. Its things like this that I wish she would try if she is very unhappy with not getting enough sleep.

Also, you need to remember my own mind frame. Yes, I probably was being a little selfish about the seperate beds comment from my W. However, everything that I feel represents our M has been systematically taken from me in one way or another. She has her wedding ring off more than on. There is not intimacy, affection or admiration. There is currently more independent behavior than partnership behavior. When I almost lost my ring because it came off my hand, my W made the comment that it would not have bothered her as much as it would have bothered me. Now she is saying that it would be no big deal for us to sleep in seprate bedrooms. In my view, what is next? Seperate sex partners? Do you see how I might be feeling? Of course, I would never want my W to go through any pain. However, I can't help but feel that sometimes, she comes across to me as not really caring about the pain I feel she is putting me through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Secondly, sleeping on a couch will hurt your wife's back worse since there is usually not great support. (Some couches are better than your bed on support, it depends) You need to have a guest room with a decent new bed in there so her back can heal. I know, I have back problems! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is almost as if you and my W just got off the phone. Are you sure you are not friends with my W? She has been talking about upgrading the bed in the guest room this week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Take Care,

EL

Well, you really aren't the one to be able to decide what your wife needs to do in order to get the best sleep.

If her problem was simply insomnia, the not getting up even when she is awake might be the right thing to do.

But there is also her back trouble to consider, and she may often need to get up and move around in the middle of the night to ease that rather than stay in bed. There are still mornings when I wake up stiff and know full well that it would have been better for me to get up for a bit in the middle of the night if I had woken up.

The fact remains that you are disrupting her sleep. Since it's important to you to sleep in the same bed, you need to make sure you do not disrupt her sleep. Until the snoring is fixed, why not sleep in the guest room or on the couch yourself?

You guys are right. I just panic once in a while when I feel like things are adding up and progressing towards what looks like a negative direction. Some times I have trouble seeing the forest for the trees. Being a little more sensitive to these things and potentially misreading actions from my W comes with the territory these days. Fortunately, I have found you nice people to help me when I get confused.

Thanks,

EL

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Hello Everyone,

I hope you are all doing well with the up coming Holiday season approaching.

I have not written in a few days. I have been very busy. I am working 12 16 hour days and will be done Friday evening.

Lets see, how do I describe where we are? Well, we have kind of been stagnant for a couple weeks. Nothing has gotten better or worse. I have been feeling frustrated and have started developing a feeling of not caring as much as I used to. I am not really showing any lack of care to my W, I am being careful not to, but I cannot help the fact that I still very much feel alone in this relationship.

I will give you an example. Last night, my W had a Bunco night with the women in the neighborhood. I got home in time to spend a "guy" night with my S so W could go and have fun. Lately, it seems like when she gets together with the Women in the neighborhood, she has trouble ending the evening and they tend to turn out to be a very long night and end up at our house in our hot tub. So I made the comment as she left, "Be careful bringing women over to night, you might find me naked in the hot tub." I was just kidding with her and she knew I was kidding. Her response was, "Well, I would not care. It is your body." This floored me. I said, "I would not like anyone else to see you naked." She said, "I would not let anyone see me naked. But, I cannot tell you what to do." I just was astonished. I do not understand. She shows no care if the women in our neighborhood saw her H naked. I just do not understand this attitude. Am I the only one who thinks there is something wrong with this kind of statement. I feel that this statement reveals that my W is not that interested in our M. What do you guys think.

Anyway, another example of my beginning to not care about things (which scares the H*** out of me by the way) is that my W came home last night with a neighbor girl and they went in the hot tub. They got to our house at 9:30 and were in the tub until 12:00 drinking wine. We usually go to bed around 11:00 and it was the middel of the week. Anyway, because I am working long hours and am extremely tired of not having a day off in a while, I just went up to bed at 10:30. My W woke me up at 12:15 to say, "I did not know you went to bed." She reached out and put her arm on me. I just layed there and went back to sleep. She said, "So you are mad at me!" I said, "No, I have to work in the morning and need to get some sleep." I got up in the morning and decided to take our S to his preschool because I knew my W would be too tired. My W got up to say goodbye to us.

So what do you guys make of this. As I have discussed quite a lot, my W is always tired and has some kind of ache or pain. However, it always seems that when something like having a neighbor over and staying up late drinking in the hot tub happens, she is fine and excited about doing this. When I try to do something with her, similar to this or not, I always get the tired excuse or the pain excuse or the I need to go to bed at 11:00. I hope I am just making too much out of this, but I really do not think I am. If I try to discuss this with her, then it turns into "my trying to control her" because I am complaining about her doing something. Knowing that I cannot really win in this situation, I have started to slowly be pushed down the "giving up route." Its not that I want to go this direction. I think my efforts since April on this site show that my intentions are good. I do love my W and really love my S. Having come from a broken up family I do not want to do this to our S.

I do not know what to do. I do not want to act improperly towards my W. I would love for things to turn around and for us to have a great M that is fullfilling for both my W and I. Those of you who know my story and have followed this VERY long post, please offer me some good advice. I do not need to be presented with the question of my deciding what I want because I have decided. I want this M. I just am being honest with the fact that I am having the feelings of giving up.

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> Hello Everyone,

I hope you are all doing well with the up coming Holiday season approaching.

I have not written in a few days. I have been very busy. I am working 12 16 hour days and will be done Friday evening.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds exhausting. It might be worth remembering that when you are exhausted, it's reasonable to expect that you will feel less connected in your marriage, because your overall energy is low. So your lack of care feeling may be as much about fatigue as anything else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Lets see, how do I describe where we are? Well, we have kind of been stagnant for a couple weeks. Nothing has gotten better or worse. I have been feeling frustrated and have started developing a feeling of not caring as much as I used to. I am not really showing any lack of care to my W, I am being careful not to, but I cannot help the fact that I still very much feel alone in this relationship.

I will give you an example. Last night, my W had a Bunco night with the women in the neighborhood. I got home in time to spend a "guy" night with my S so W could go and have fun. Lately, it seems like when she gets together with the Women in the neighborhood, she has trouble ending the evening and they tend to turn out to be a very long night and end up at our house in our hot tub. So I made the comment as she left, "Be careful bringing women over to night, you might find me naked in the hot tub." I was just kidding with her and she knew I was kidding. Her response was, "Well, I would not care. It is your body." This floored me. I said, "I would not like anyone else to see you naked." She said, "I would not let anyone see me naked. But, I cannot tell you what to do." I just was astonished. I do not understand. She shows no care if the women in our neighborhood saw her H naked. I just do not understand this attitude. Am I the only one who thinks there is something wrong with this kind of statement. I feel that this statement reveals that my W is not that interested in our M. What do you guys think.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say you're shocked by your wife's response to what you said, but honestly, what shocks me is that you expected anything different.

Making a thoughtful request of your wife that she skip the hottub part of the evening just this once would be perfectly reasonable on your part. You didn't do that -- you made a comment disguised as a joke that was plainly intended to tell her what you wanted her to do, and threatened her with a "joke" consequence if she did other than what you wanted. I'm amazed that you expected any response other than what you got.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Anyway, another example of my beginning to not care about things (which scares the H*** out of me by the way) is that my W came home last night with a neighbor girl and they went in the hot tub. They got to our house at 9:30 and were in the tub until 12:00 drinking wine. We usually go to bed around 11:00 and it was the middel of the week. Anyway, because I am working long hours and am extremely tired of not having a day off in a while, I just went up to bed at 10:30. My W woke me up at 12:15 to say, "I did not know you went to bed." She reached out and put her arm on me. I just layed there and went back to sleep. She said, "So you are mad at me!" I said, "No, I have to work in the morning and need to get some sleep." I got up in the morning and decided to take our S to his preschool because I knew my W would be too tired. My W got up to say goodbye to us.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Umm...

Let's back up a ways. Do you remember posting on here a number of times being frustrated that your wife wasn't giving you positive reinforcement of behaviors in you that she claims are desireable?

You went on at some length that it's really in her best interest to do so, since then you'll learn these new behaviors much more quickly and enthusiastically. And you certainly have a point there.

But you're doing the exact opposite in the scene you just described. You've been talking quite a lot about the importance to you of cuddling in bed. You've expressed more than once that you want your wife to be a responsive and active participant in cuddling, more so than she usually is now. So when she cuddles up to you like she did last night, the thing to do according to your own logic is to encourage and reward her.

You didn't. You did exactly what you hate when she does it -- you reacted to cuddling by being completely unresponsive.

I know you needed sleep, but it would have taken 30 seconds to hug her back and say, "I love it so much when you cuddle up to me like that. I wish I weren't on this crazy work schedule just now so I could treasure holding you, but I'm going to pass out again any second. I love you."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
So what do you guys make of this. As I have discussed quite a lot, my W is always tired and has some kind of ache or pain. However, it always seems that when something like having a neighbor over and staying up late drinking in the hot tub happens, she is fine and excited about doing this. When I try to do something with her, similar to this or not, I always get the tired excuse or the pain excuse or the I need to go to bed at 11:00. I hope I am just making too much out of this, but I really do not think I am. If I try to discuss this with her, then it turns into "my trying to control her" because I am complaining about her doing something. Knowing that I cannot really win in this situation, I have started to slowly be pushed down the "giving up route." Its not that I want to go this direction. I think my efforts since April on this site show that my intentions are good. I do love my W and really love my S. Having come from a broken up family I do not want to do this to our S.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you're hitting the same wall a lot of people here have. If you want more quality time with your wife, that's great, and you should definitely negotiate for that.

What may not be appropriate and is not likely to work is telling her what you want her to cut to give you more quality time.

I can tell you without a doubt if it were me in her shoes, my doctor would be telling me to keep the bunco nights and toss something else -- since the bunco nights contribute to your wife's energy, they're important for her health right now. There must be something that drains her instead of energizes her that can be given up or reduced instead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
I do not know what to do. I do not want to act improperly towards my W. I would love for things to turn around and for us to have a great M that is fullfilling for both my W and I. Those of you who know my story and have followed this VERY long post, please offer me some good advice. I do not need to be presented with the question of my deciding what I want because I have decided. I want this M. I just am being honest with the fact that I am having the feelings of giving up.

Thanks,

EL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EL, there will be up and down swings during this process of healing your marriage. I know the downswings hurt and are hard to live through, but they don't mean that things are dire. I really think your own exhaustion is a significant contributor here. Go ahead and allow yourself to feel a bit discouraged when you're so tired. It doesn't mean there's a failing anywhere, it means you're human like the rest of us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe your wife has some lesbian tendancies that she wants to explore with these other women.

For sure, she prefers the other women friends company over yours. This would make me feel bad if it were my husband preferring his buddies over me.

I dislike your wife for not honoring, respecting and loving you, her precious husband who she vowed to love forever, above anybody else.

What is she thinking?

baba, lol! The thought of sitting in a hot tub full of women drinking wine doesn't do anything for me either. Nor does sitting in a hottub full of men drinking wine, come to think of it.

I guess I'm not that into hottubs.

But if I got together with a group of people once or twice a month, and the conversations got really great and interesting later in the night when everyone's in the hottub, I'd probably go sit in the hottub too so as not to miss the great conversation.

Extremely Lost

I was beginning to wonder where you were so I’m glad you showed up.

How is your son doing?

And, when are you going to bring up your list of needs in marriage in MC? I know you said something about a 2 week hiatus. Does that end this week or next?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her response was, "Well, I would not care. It is your body." This floored me. I said, "I would not like anyone else to see you naked." She said, "I would not let anyone see me naked. But, I cannot tell you what to do." I just was astonished. I do not understand. She shows no care if the women in our neighborhood saw her H naked. I just do not understand this attitude. Am I the only one who thinks there is something wrong with this kind of statement. I feel that this statement reveals that my W is not that interested in our M. What do you guys think. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to admit I’m scratching my head on this one. I can see that you both have a difference of opinion. I can see that her opinion bothers you. Where the train of thought utterly derails on me is when “I would not care; it’s your body.” translates into not being interested in your marriage.

Extremely Lost, this is a ‘value’ disconnect. She doesn’t value .er.. .what’s a good word for it.. your modesty the same way you value HER modesty. Look on the bright side, she did say that she wouldn’t let anyone else see her naked (except for her Dr., I assume) so you don’t have to worry about that, at least. You’d have a much bigger problem on your hands if you valued her modesty and she had an exhibitionist streak.

I think things will go a lot smoother for you once Mineownself, Lookingforchange, and I pound into your head that people can value the same thing (marriage) for different reasons and still manage to get along just fine and live happily ever after. She may not always value the same things you do. It doesn’t mean she’s not interested in the marriage, it just means that she’s interested in different THINGS in marriage and has different opinions.

So, for the next 3 weeks you are forthwith banned from concluding that any difference of opinion your wife shares with you relates in any way to her interest in the marriage. And, if you manage to make it that long, and can still remember how to do it, I’ll just extend the ban until you forget. *grins*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So what do you guys make of this. As I have discussed quite a lot, my W is always tired and has some kind of ache or pain. However, it always seems that when something like having a neighbor over and staying up late drinking in the hot tub happens, she is fine and excited about doing this. When I try to do something with her, similar to this or not, I always get the tired excuse or the pain excuse or the I need to go to bed at 11:00. I hope I am just making too much out of this, but I really do not think I am. If I try to discuss this with her, then it turns into "my trying to control her" because I am complaining about her doing something. Knowing that I cannot really win in this situation, I have started to slowly be pushed down the "giving up route." Its not that I want to go this direction. I think my efforts since April on this site show that my intentions are good. I do love my W and really love my S. Having come from a broken up family I do not want to do this to our S. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that some of the situation has to do with you working so many hours. You’re tired. She’s tired and getting less help. I’m glad that you’re going to be able to cut back soon. It’s important for you to understand that, while work is a priority for you, your wife’s periodic recreational nights are important to her. It doesn’t mean YOU aren’t important to her any more than you making work a priority implies she’s not important to you.

I suspect that you might say you must to work in order to support the family so it’s not the same thing. Well, it is and it isn’t. In many families BOTH parties work. In your family, you seem to have made a POJA (at least I assume you’re both happy with the arrangement that she not work) that you are the one who works and she is the one who takes care of your son. So, while your job certainly has more financial impact than her nights out, her options are different than yours. Therefore, what she values and the importance she places on things will be different. It could be that the bunko nights are what keeps her decompressed enough or relaxed enough or <whatever> enough to be able to focus on raising your son.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know what to do. I do not want to act improperly towards my W. I would love for things to turn around and for us to have a great M that is fullfilling for both my W and I. Those of you who know my story and have followed this VERY long post, please offer me some good advice. I do not need to be presented with the question of my deciding what I want because I have decided. I want this M. I just am being honest with the fact that I am having the feelings of giving up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the time has come to put your needs out there on the table.. shake up this situation with a little necessary conflict. When is that happening?

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I made the comment as she left, "Be careful bringing women over to night, you might find me naked in the hot tub." I was just kidding with her and she knew I was kidding. Her response was, "Well, I would not care. It is your body." This floored me. I said, "I would not like anyone else to see you naked." She said, "I would not let anyone see me naked. But, I cannot tell you what to do." I just was astonished. I do not understand. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if you were mistaken that she knew it was a joke, and she really thought it was a sideways dig or had a hidden message? Or maybe she also was joking, and expected you would know it. I don't know your situation so I could be off base. But then my fault in life is always giving people the benefit of the doubt.

EL,

I was going to come waltzing in with the 2x4 but I see MOS and Mys have already produced a lump.

I've noticed you analyzing or should I say manipulating many of your W's statements into reasons why she's not interested in your M. Yet in the same post you mention how she reached out to you. You don't see the importance of her girl's night out. You didn't do a good job of presenting your open and honest opinion. You built up resentment and then passively aggresively made her pay the price by neglecting her attempt at being close.

What if she'd had enough wine to feel a little amoris (sp?). She was feeling pretty great being able to relax with a friend knowing you were doing a good job of taking care of family and home. She felt happy about that and wanted to share her happiness by snuggling with you.

And all of this happened because you're frustrated and felt the need to make her difference in opinion regarding values as an indicator of her interest in your M.

You may do yourself a world of good by just letting go of your analytical skills and just let things be for awhile. When you've had plenty of sleep and aren't exhausted and you're on better terms communicating with your W then maybe start analyzing again.

What are your everyday interactions with your W like? Do you two do a lot of kidding around? Do you keep things light? Is it playful? Or are both of you real stoic, serious and is there always a level of tension when you're near each other?

When things are playful and light and not so serious it would be easier to let certain things slide like water off a duck's back. Then every statement wouldn't have to be a barometer of the interest and/or improvement of your M.

I mention this because I think I was overanalyzing my M too much. Actually I know I was because she asked me "Do we have to analyze everything we say and do?" So in the last few months her and I have made conscious efforts to be more playful and a little less serious and analytical about everything. It's been helping in almost every aspect of our R.

Just some thoughts.

Hey everyone,

Its good to hear from ALL of you. Thanks for responding. Right away, I want to make one thing clear that was taken incorrectly. My W did not make an attempt to cuddle with me last night. She crawled in bed, on the edge of her side of our king size bed and reached her hand out and lightly touched my back for a millisecond. That was it. Believe me, if she had made an effort to cuddle, I would have been all over that. This is not what she did. Her actions were just more of the same as they pretty much have always been.

I have begun to feel that all of the efforts you guys have helped me make, which was to meet my W's ENs, which included my not being critical of her doing many independent things, is slowly becoming more of what I had feared they would become. I feel as though, because I have repressed my trust issues to not have my W feel as though I do not trust her, she now feels like she has a green light to do more of the things that make me feel less a part of a partnership. She does not have the energy to do things with S or I, but does have the energy to do things with/for everyone else. Take this week for instance. Last night was Bunco and then the hot tub. Tonight is the year end Home Owner's meeting (6:00 -10:00PM). Tomorrow was supposed to be some type of ladies party. Next Monday night she has another engagement. Next Thursday she has another meeting (3- 4 hours starting at 6:00PM). She also has something else next Friday. These are all in the time that I am home and we actually might get to spend time together. I am home from 6:00 PM and we go to bed about 11:00 PM. How does her "new" schedule help OUR M? Obviously it does not. She does not see this as a conflidt with our M or a bad thing. All of her "events" are now starting to make me feel defeated.

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sounds exhausting. It might be worth remembering that when you are exhausted, it's reasonable to expect that you will feel less connected in your marriage, because your overall energy is low. So your lack of care feeling may be as much about fatigue as anything else.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Granted. This is definitely not helping. But in this instance, would not a loving, caring spouse who says she really appreciates my working so hard so she can stay home with our S, be somewhat supportive with this? Am I expecting too much?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You say you're shocked by your wife's response to what you said, but honestly, what shocks me is that you expected anything different.

Making a thoughtful request of your wife that she skip the hottub part of the evening just this once would be perfectly reasonable on your part. You didn't do that -- you made a comment disguised as a joke that was plainly intended to tell her what you wanted her to do, and threatened her with a "joke" consequence if she did other than what you wanted. I'm amazed that you expected any response other than what you got.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really was not trying to control her. I was saying how she probably will end up having women over to hot tub around 9:30 - 10:00. I really do feel this is unreasonable on a Wednesday evening, with her H working how I have had to work and our S trying to sleep upstairs and has to get up early for school. Also, I know, from every time this has happend, my W already has trouble getting up in the mornings. I knew this meant I would most likely need to take our S in the morning, which makes me a 1/2 hour late to work. I do not think it is unreasonable for my W to be considerate of her family. Go and have a good time, but when it is over at 9:00, go home and end your evening like the majority of the other women do that play Bunco with her.

The surprising comment about how she "really would not care" if the women in the neighborhood saw me naked was similar (in my mind) to saying, I really would not care if you slept with the women in our neighborhood. Its not a large leap to go from being naked in front of someone to sleeping with them. Why does it seem like I am the only one who sees this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let's back up a ways. Do you remember posting on here a number of times being frustrated that your wife wasn't giving you positive reinforcement of behaviors in you that she claims are desireable?

You went on at some length that it's really in her best interest to do so, since then you'll learn these new behaviors much more quickly and enthusiastically. And you certainly have a point there.

But you're doing the exact opposite in the scene you just described. You've been talking quite a lot about the importance to you of cuddling in bed. You've expressed more than once that you want your wife to be a responsive and active participant in cuddling, more so than she usually is now. So when she cuddles up to you like she did last night, the thing to do according to your own logic is to encourage and reward her.

You didn't. You did exactly what you hate when she does it -- you reacted to cuddling by being completely unresponsive.

I know you needed sleep, but it would have taken 30 seconds to hug her back and say, "I love it so much when you cuddle up to me like that. I wish I weren't on this crazy work schedule just now so I could treasure holding you, but I'm going to pass out again any second. I love you."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mineownself, I agree with you. If she was trying to cuddle, I would have done so. She was not trying to cuddle. She got in bed and said, "I did not know you went to bed!" Then she lightly reached all the way across the bed (full stretch) to lightly touch my back for a millisecond. In fact, as I remember, I slightly rolled to look behind me and by that time she was already settled on the EDGE of her side of the bed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you're hitting the same wall a lot of people here have. If you want more quality time with your wife, that's great, and you should definitely negotiate for that.

What may not be appropriate and is not likely to work is telling her what you want her to cut to give you more quality time.

I can tell you without a doubt if it were me in her shoes, my doctor would be telling me to keep the bunco nights and toss something else -- since the bunco nights contribute to your wife's energy, they're important for her health right now. There must be something that drains her instead of energizes her that can be given up or reduced instead.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying. But, Bunco or anything else is like chiropratic things. These items are going to give you temporary relief, not long term effects. They should not take precedent over your family. If you do not feel as "energized" spending time with your family as you do with girl friends in the neighborhood, then there is a PROBLEM. Only the taking care of this problem and learning to enjoy spending quality time with your family will ultimately make my W feel better. Unless, of course, she has decided that our family is not for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, there will be up and down swings during this process of healing your marriage. I know the downswings hurt and are hard to live through, but they don't mean that things are dire. I really think your own exhaustion is a significant contributor here. Go ahead and allow yourself to feel a bit discouraged when you're so tired. It doesn't mean there's a failing anywhere, it means you're human like the rest of us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for this advice. I do appreciate it.

Baba - You make me laugh! Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe your wife has some lesbian tendancies that she wants to explore with these other women.

For sure, she prefers the other women friends company over yours. This would make me feel bad if it were my husband preferring his buddies over me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could be right I guess, however I do not think so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I dislike your wife for not honoring, respecting and loving you, her precious husband who she vowed to love forever, above anybody else.

What is she thinking? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like this at times. I do not want you to not like my W though. I wish she would write on this site and gain the benefit of all your input. I am not really sure she would take it to heart though.

Myschae - How are you doing? Tell me about the house. Whats going on with your house?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was beginning to wonder where you were so I’m glad you showed up.

How is your son doing?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am still here, hanging on by the perverbial thread. Thanks for asking about my S. He is doing fine. I think he is going through a phase. He seems to say something naughty when he wants attention. The problem we run into is that if we do what the MC suggests, he ends up getting the attention he acted out for. We tried this for about three days and things got a little worse. Since then we have been meeting his naughty thoughts with displeasure and we feel we have been getting a better response. However, he is really in a "not listening and disagreeing stage." I can't wait for this to pass. I do not like having to put him to bed early because he is misbehaving because I do not get as much time with him as I would like because of working during the day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, when are you going to bring up your list of needs in marriage in MC? I know you said something about a 2 week hiatus. Does that end this week or next?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am under the impression that I might get the chance to do this at our next MC session, which is this coming Tuesday morning. If it starts out more about discussing our S, I do not want to come off as changing the subject because I am being selfish. I have the list printed out and ready to go. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to admit I’m scratching my head on this one. I can see that you both have a difference of opinion. I can see that her opinion bothers you. Where the train of thought utterly derails on me is when “I would not care; it’s your body.” translates into not being interested in your marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its like I wrote to Mineownself. Being naked in front of another woman is not far from sleeping with another woman. I know its OK to have the opinion that someone who sleeps with someone other than their spouse shows a real lack of care for their M. Using logic helps me to draw the two conclusions together: If a spouse does not mind the other spouse being naked in front of someone of the opposite sex, then this spouse cannot really care much for their M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think things will go a lot smoother for you once Mineownself, Lookingforchange, and I pound into your head that people can value the same thing (marriage) for different reasons and still manage to get along just fine and live happily ever after. She may not always value the same things you do. It doesn’t mean she’s not interested in the marriage, it just means that she’s interested in different THINGS in marriage and has different opinions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine. I guess this is where boundaries need to come in. A boundary for me would be that my spouse does not get naked in front of other men. I would of thought this was a reasonable boundary for most individuals.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, for the next 3 weeks you are forthwith banned from concluding that any difference of opinion your wife shares with you relates in any way to her interest in the marriage. And, if you manage to make it that long, and can still remember how to do it, I’ll just extend the ban until you forget. *grins*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At what point does this "difference in opinion" become enough to warrant that your spouse does not really value your M? Is it when your spouse thinks having an affair is OK and you don't? Is it when your spouse does/says something because they know it will bother you based upon how they know you feel about certain things? What gauge is considered the "proper" gauge to determine if your spouse truly does care about your M? Taking a spouse at their word and choosing to ignore their actions is just as insane as ignoring a spouse's word, and only believing in their actions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that some of the situation has to do with you working so many hours. You’re tired. She’s tired and getting less help. I’m glad that you’re going to be able to cut back soon. It’s important for you to understand that, while work is a priority for you, your wife’s periodic recreational nights are important to her. It doesn’t mean YOU aren’t important to her any more than you making work a priority implies she’s not important to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I need to clarify a point in what you wrote. I am tired yes. She is tired, yes, but not sure why. She has not gotten less help. I have not reduced what I do around the house. I get home, I might eat a little dinner, or not, and then I clean some areas of the house. You see, I have been trying to work under a philosophy. My W is a person who is effected by the sun not being out. Therefore, it is not a large leap to assume she also would be less motivated if she came downstairs every morning to a messy house. So I have been trying to have the downstairs cleaned before I go to bed every night. This includes the kitchen and dishes. So I cannot agree with her having less help. Even with all of this, I still managed to do something that was hers to do - taking our S to school this morning so she could recover from last night.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suspect that you might say you must to work in order to support the family so it’s not the same thing. Well, it is and it isn’t. In many families BOTH parties work. In your family, you seem to have made a POJA (at least I assume you’re both happy with the arrangement that she not work) that you are the one who works and she is the one who takes care of your son. So, while your job certainly has more financial impact than her nights out, her options are different than yours. Therefore, what she values and the importance she places on things will be different. It could be that the bunko nights are what keeps her decompressed enough or relaxed enough or <whatever> enough to be able to focus on raising your son. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You make a fair point and I do not have a problem with her playing Bunco. The issue I have is with her not making thoughtful decisions as to when it would be more appropriate for her family as to when to end an evening in the middle of the week. When to have people over should be a joint agreement not her decision to make alone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the time has come to put your needs out there on the table.. shake up this situation with a little necessary conflict. When is that happening?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are so very right. I am getting to the point of being mad again because of where we are (or are not). However, I do want to do this whole thing properly to give us the best chance of it all working out. I still think you are implying that I do this in counseling. I have the list printed out and am waiting for the next opportunity in MC, which is hopefully Tuesday.

Thanks Mys, it was great to hear from you again.

Deja Vu -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if you were mistaken that she knew it was a joke, and she really thought it was a sideways dig or had a hidden message? Or maybe she also was joking, and expected you would know it. I don't know your situation so I could be off base. But then my fault in life is always giving people the benefit of the doubt.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the thought, but it is not likely. She actually was not joking, she was serious. She had plenty of opportunity to even fake it as if she was joking, but did not take the opportunity. I do always tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, which has gotten me into a lot of trouble in life. I have found this site does offer some good reality checks once in a while.

My Alias - Long time no talk eh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was going to come waltzing in with the 2x4 but I see MOS and Mys have already produced a lump.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. Not lumps. I think all are being fair. I want their to try and understand these different opinions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've noticed you analyzing or should I say manipulating many of your W's statements into reasons why she's not interested in your M. Yet in the same post you mention how she reached out to you. You don't see the importance of her girl's night out. You didn't do a good job of presenting your open and honest opinion. You built up resentment and then passively aggresively made her pay the price by neglecting her attempt at being close. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, hold on a minute! I have not manipulated my W's statements. I have simply said how her statements have made me feel. Her reaching out to me was not what you are making it out to be as I explained earlier. I do see the importance of A girl's night out. My issue is that it is becoming many nights and during the week. This, you are right, I do not understand, nor accept. I build up feelings, some of which are resentment. I was not making her pay a price and rejecting her. I explained this above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if she'd had enough wine to feel a little amoris (sp?). She was feeling pretty great being able to relax with a friend knowing you were doing a good job of taking care of family and home. She felt happy about that and wanted to share her happiness by snuggling with you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOT!!!!! This is the case of something I have written being misinturpreted by the next person writting and then the next writer takes what the last person wrote and expanded further. My W never tried to snuggle with me. If she had, I probably would be writting with a VERY different attitude.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And all of this happened because you're frustrated and felt the need to make her difference in opinion regarding values as an indicator of her interest in your M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry, but this is further off base.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What are your everyday interactions with your W like? Do you two do a lot of kidding around? Do you keep things light? Is it playful? Or are both of you real stoic, serious and is there always a level of tension when you're near each other?

When things are playful and light and not so serious it would be easier to let certain things slide like water off a duck's back. Then every statement wouldn't have to be a barometer of the interest and/or improvement of your M.

I mention this because I think I was overanalyzing my M too much. Actually I know I was because she asked me "Do we have to analyze everything we say and do?" So in the last few months her and I have made conscious efforts to be more playful and a little less serious and analytical about everything. It's been helping in almost every aspect of our R. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a fair point. I would say that we are mostly serious with each other. Sometimes we joke back and forth with each other.

Thanks for your input.

Thanks everyone,

Take Care,

EL

Hi EL,

Ah, I understand now about the cuddling/not cuddling. Thanks for the clarification.

I see you're still missing the point a lot of us are trying to make. It does not matter that your intent was not to be controlling about the hot tub thing. What matters is that your method of making your point about what you wanted was roundabout at best, and not remotely helpful in a situation where you're trying to heal your marriage from a history of being controlling.

Thoughtful request: "Honey, how would you feel about coming home after bunco at nine and hanging with me a little bit before I have to go to bed?"

What you said was not a thoughtful request. Whether you meant it innocently or not, it was not a throughtful request, so it's no big shock it didn't get you what you wanted.

You could say that what you meant was just a joke. Ok. You got a joking reply. Then you got all serious about the joking reply. I could see your wife being really puzzled at this point as to what on earth was going on here. It can't be "just a joke" because you're going all serious. If you didn't want her to make a joking reply saying "fine, go be naked in front of people, I can't stop you" you shouldn't have threatened to be naked in front of people to start with. How come it's ok for you to joke about it but it's not ok for her to joke about it? How is this not controlling?

Ok, so maybe it wasn't just a joke. Maybe what it was really about was her not hottubbing with friends that evening. In that case, a thoughtful request was in order, or maybe some negotiation. You skipped the build agreement and negotiation stages and just made it clear what you wanted. She chose not to play along. Since your method of saying what you wanted involved a threat of embarrassing her if she didn't comply (disguised as a "joke") I'm not surprised she called you on it. Her reiteration that she couldn't stop you was simply pointing out that your point that you don't have to play by her script (you can show up naked in the hot tub) is true, it's equally true that she doesn't have to play by your script (she can bring her friends to the hot tub anyway).

I still don't understand why you're so disturbed by her saying she can't control whether you go streaking. It's true she can't control that. By refusing to get upset over you saying you might, she's refusing to let your threats control how she feels. This is healthy. This doesn't mean she's perfectly fine with you being naked with other women. It means she's not going to get upset over you threatening to crash her gathering naked.

EL

I missed this when I first read your post.

It sounds like you need to add Quality Time to your list of ENs. If her spending time with you and the family is important then she needs to hear it.

It's fine that she takes time for herself with her friends but she certainly needs to spend time with you if it is a need you have.

I'm curious. What would you call your W's attempt when she laid her arm on you? I would interpret that as a form of touch which isn't a snuggle but it is physical touch (one of my ENs).
I guess I wouldn't have downplayed that little gesture. I don't know your normal interactions so I'm curious to know if this is norm or out of character for her? And if it is out of the norm then was it a good gesture or an attempt to provoke you somehow?

I'm not agreeing with your W's behavior when it comes to Quality Time but I can't help her because she's not here. You are and you are getting frustrated so I'm trying to make sure you aren't making mountains out of molehills, building up resentment to the point where you'll quit doing the good work you've been doing.

I mentioned the serious nature of your R because that might be an indicator of why your W is feeling the need to spend so much time away from you. She gets to spend the day with your S but she isn't that interested in being with you. Well when everything about being with you is serious and not that playful or stress relieving then why would she? Is it possible if you created a different atmosphere she will feel less inclined to escape (if that is indeed what she is doing)?

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How are you doing? Tell me about the house. Whats going on with your house? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, we’re moved in and unpacking and setting things up. At the same time, we’re doing some small renovation projects (painting, installing carpeting) while we shuffle things around to get the rooms set up. It’s time consuming but good to be getting it done.

I’ll confess it doesn’t feel like home yet, even with all my stuff around me. I’m pretty sentimental about places and houses (for some reason) and so moving really ‘shakes me up’ emotionally and I don’t deal with it well. It tends to make me feel a bit melancholy and generally out of sorts. I’m hoping that being able to be here for the holiday season (we had 2 holiday seasons being ‘homeless’ while living in very temporary housing) will help me feel more at home. I’m really looking forward to being able to do some baking and cooking a REAL Thanksgiving dinner this year. Home and home cooking are very closely tied for me. Being able to finally cook in the new house raised my morale about 10 points. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for asking.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am still here, hanging on by the perverbial thread. Thanks for asking about my S. He is doing fine. I think he is going through a phase. He seems to say something naughty when he wants attention. The problem we run into is that if we do what the MC suggests, he ends up getting the attention he acted out for. We tried this for about three days and things got a little worse. Since then we have been meeting his naughty thoughts with displeasure and we feel we have been getting a better response. However, he is really in a "not listening and disagreeing stage." I can't wait for this to pass. I do not like having to put him to bed early because he is misbehaving because I do not get as much time with him as I would like because of working during the day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awww.. the poor little guy. And poor you, too. *chuckles* I’m sure it’s just a phase and he’ll grow out of it. Take heart and good notes – these are the ‘cute’ stories you get to embarrass him with when he brings his prom date over. *evil grin*

Ahem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am under the impression that I might get the chance to do this at our next MC session, which is this coming Tuesday morning. If it starts out more about discussing our S, I do not want to come off as changing the subject because I am being selfish. I have the list printed out and ready to go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Its like I wrote to Mineownself. Being naked in front of another woman is not far from sleeping with another woman. I know its OK to have the opinion that someone who sleeps with someone other than their spouse shows a real lack of care for their M. Using logic helps me to draw the two conclusions together: If a spouse does not mind the other spouse being naked in front of someone of the opposite sex, then this spouse cannot really care much for their M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm. No. It’s too much of a leap for me. If you really want to play that game, you’re going to have to explicitly ask your wife if she minds if you sleep with another woman. And, then if she cares about your marriage. Ask them as different questions and in a non-manipulative context (think survey questions). Otherwise, you’re treading on a disrespectful judgment because you’re ‘making up’ all kinds of conclusions based on her answer to one (fairly innocuous) question.

Just because that’s YOUR logic train doesn’t mean that it follows the way she thinks about it. In fact, I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that she DOESN’T have that logic trail.

If you need a sanity check - that isn’t the thought process *I* would have used, either. And, I care very much about my marriage. And, I care very much about my H sleeping with some other woman. But, if I had been asked a similar question in that context (us coming home and him being ‘caught’ naked in the hot tub) I might have answered similarly. Actually, I’d have answered much more flippantly with something like “Only if you got a good tip, dear.” The HUGE difference that is made to ME is that the context of the original conversation is that SHE WAS THERE. It’s a very different thing to me than if my H was getting naked in a hotel room somewhere. Honestly, I’d not have used the same thought process you did.

I suppose for me, the way I’d answer that is highly situational as opposed to “all bad, all the time.” The truth is that it might bother me on some levels – embarrassment for him and our guest – but on the level of equating it with an affair? Er.. it never would have even crossed my mind. I just wouldn’t have gotten there, Extremely Lost.

Now, the problem isn’t that you feel how you feel about other’s seeing her or you naked. The problem is that you ‘fill in’ all these conclusions and assign them to her as opinions when they are 1.) casting her in a very negative light and 2.) not explicitly stated as her opinions or thoughts. Assuming that you’re right about her opinions based on your internal logic and without asking her directly is a disrespectful judgment. It’s a love buster. Stop it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fine. I guess this is where boundaries need to come in. A boundary for me would be that my spouse does not get naked in front of other men. I would of thought this was a reasonable boundary for most individuals. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure. But, didn’t she explicitly state that she wouldn’t allow anyone else to see her naked? Where was your boundary crossed? Mmmm?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At what point does this "difference in opinion" become enough to warrant that your spouse does not really value your M? Is it when your spouse thinks having an affair is OK and you don't? Is it when your spouse does/says something because they know it will bother you based upon how they know you feel about certain things? What gauge is considered the "proper" gauge to determine if your spouse truly does care about your M? Taking a spouse at their word and choosing to ignore their actions is just as insane as ignoring a spouse's word, and only believing in their actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never.

You never get to decide how your spouse feels. Not ever. Not even ONCE. Your spouse can TELL you how she feels. But, you never get to say “THIS IS HOW YOU FEEL.” Not even if your spouse is having an affair. Because anytime you do that you are guilty of a disrespectful judgment.

Now, if your spouse comes out and says “This marriage doesn’t mean anything to me.” Then you can take her at her word. But, otherwise, it’s ALWAYS wrong. You do not know how or what someone truly thinks or feels unless they tell you. You can react to what their actions are and what they tell you. But, you don’t get to decide for her how she feels about anything.

A boundary is an action that YOU decide to take in a situation. Take the example of an affair. You can decide what you’re going to do if your spouse has an affair – leave the marriage or work on recovering it. You can decide how YOU feel about the marriage and the affair and even form a few opinions about your partner, if you like. But, even if your spouse does something THAT WRONG she does not abdicate her ability to feel her own emotions and think her own thoughts.

You don’t need to assign motivations, thoughts, or opinions in order to take proactive action to enforce your boundaries. Boundaries are about you and how you react, what you experience, and what you feel/think. Regardless of what someone says, if you are experiencing boundary crossing behavior, then protect yourself! You don’t have assign thoughts or feelings to that person in order to take that action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually, I need to clarify a point in what you wrote. I am tired yes. She is tired, yes, but not sure why. She has not gotten less help. I have not reduced what I do around the house. I get home, I might eat a little dinner, or not, and then I clean some areas of the house. You see, I have been trying to work under a philosophy. My W is a person who is effected by the sun not being out. Therefore, it is not a large leap to assume she also would be less motivated if she came downstairs every morning to a messy house. So I have been trying to have the downstairs cleaned before I go to bed every night. This includes the kitchen and dishes. So I cannot agree with her having less help. Even with all of this, I still managed to do something that was hers to do - taking our S to school this morning so she could recover from last night. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, sounds like you’re doing a nice job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You make a fair point and I do not have a problem with her playing Bunco. The issue I have is with her not making thoughtful decisions as to when it would be more appropriate for her family as to when to end an evening in the middle of the week. When to have people over should be a joint agreement not her decision to make alone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that is true. So, negotiate openly instead of hinting around at what you want by playing odd wordy situational games. What’s wrong with saying “Honey, I know you’re playing Bunco this evening. What are the chances you’d be willing to come home after the game without inviting anyone over so we can have a little time together? I miss you.” Speak up! Quit being so coy. Yeesh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are so very right. I am getting to the point of being mad again because of where we are (or are not). However, I do want to do this whole thing properly to give us the best chance of it all working out. I still think you are implying that I do this in counseling. I have the list printed out and am waiting for the next opportunity in MC, which is hopefully Tuesday. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes! Now that the crisis with your son is managed, get that out there!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks Mys, it was great to hear from you again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anytime.

Mys

Hey here's an idea. Next time all *****get in the hot tub with thier wine and cigs, jump on in there with them. (maybe not naked however)

At least you can relax in your own hot tub. And be there and actively spend some quality time with your own wife!

And on Bunko night, join them also. And why aren't you going to the neighborhood community meetings with your wife? You are part of the neighborhood too you know!

Quit letting her shut you outta her life. Instead, join on in on "her" stuff!

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>