Runner, it sure doesn�t sound like you are progressing in your attempts to apply the MB principals. Your post screams of anger and hatred of your W. So long as you view most of what your W does in a negative fashion you will fail to recover your M.


You two need a better method to POJA. Asking her what to do and insisting she try this isn't going to cut it. Sacrifice in a marriage is an absolute no-no. It only builds more resentment. There is no place for sacrifice in your M.

I seem to give away the counselors trade secrets but if it helps those that won't get counseling maybe that makes it OK.

Here is what we were asked to do in our counseling for POJA exercise:
Pick a topic. For us it was to negotiate a habit my wife had that caused me concern.
1). Allow each other to explain their perspective. No back talk just listen and repeat.
2). Discuss alternatives. Brainstorm, brainstorm, brainstorm. Get a few ideas from each of you.
3). Write down the alternatives then together or apart vote 1 to 5 on each alternative.
4). Go back through the list and discuss the one alternative that had the highest score combined.
5). Talk over that alternative and whomever didn�t have a high score like a 5 ask what, if anything, could be done to change their vote to a 5. So more brainstorming � possibly. If you can�t come to a mutually agreed upon alternative try the next idea and so on.

It felt sorta over the top for me but I could definitely see this working on the tougher subjects. Our objective was to work together to find something we could both be happy with. Too many of these conversations we�d have went down like yours did. �Well just try this and see if it works�. Nope without buy in from both parties the choice is sure to fail and probably make matters worse.

The one thing I love about POJA. If the agreement doesn�t work for someone � you start over and negotiate again. Trial and error until you find something that sticks.

Your W told you there was no benefit in it for her. Your response. Just try it anyways. What could you have proposed that would have been beneficial to both of you. She needs something to help her fall asleep. Why? Is it the noise that helps her relax? If so does it have to be a TV? Maybe some kind of white noise device may be an alternative (we use the ceiling fan). To be good at negotiation you really need to think outside the box sometimes. No idea is a bad idea. The answer sometimes is something you never thought you�d like.

The point being you need to negotiate and brainstorm together. Let her know you are working to find something you both would be happy with. Instead of doing that you made a demand then came here venting that she doesn�t respect you. Did you reciprocate with respect in this situation? She needs the TV to sleep you need it off to sleep. One person�s perspective and another�s.

You started off OK. What did she say to this? Did you encourage a brainstorming session?

This doesn�t sound like negotiation. It sounds like a demand especially seeing you didn�t even word it as a question.

Runner this MB stuff doesn�t work if you only do it partially. You got to throw yourself into it. Change your habits so she�ll change hers.

I'll try this. I tried to negotiate, but did it wrong. But I had to do something.

We really dont know how to negotiate. She gets angry, disrespectful, judgemental. I get resentment, angry. She gets almost anything she wants, I "sacrifice" trying to make her happy. This has failed.

She has not bought into MB, thinks our marriage is 'good' compared to our feuding/divorced friends, and I'm really struggling. We havent had any affairs, so it seems tame compared to many here, but I am so stressed out, I cant do this much longer. We barely have sex, and (according to MB) I'm abstaining from my solo act. Which just adds to my stress and resentment.

So. Thanks for the tips!

Your advice on this point seems wrong to me, MrA. I have read Dr Harley suggest precisely this negotiating strategy: ask your spouse to try something for a period of time.

I have spent 30 minutes looking for a post on the private forum and cannot find it yet, but it involved Dr H wanting to move from California to Minnesota for a career move, years ago. Mrs Harley did not want to move. Dr H asked her to try living in Minnesota. If she wanted to move back at any time they would do so immediately. They kept their house in CA and in fact still have it. As you know, they have not moved back there yet as Mrs H has been happy in Minnesota.

The principle of asking a spouse to try something for a while is a good one when using MB.

The request for his wife to stop watching TV in bed is not in itself a selfish demand. Falling asleep with the TV on is an annoying habit to NYC. Annoying habits are lovebusters and they need to be stopped immediately. When both spouses care about each other and want to avoid making each other unhappy, they will listen to a complaint about an annoying habit or behaviour and work immediately to stop it. The offended spouse does not need to negotiate about how or even whether a lovebuster should be stopped: it must be stopped right away.

The problem that NYC faces is that his wife does not seem to be interested in avoiding LBs, caring for NYC's wellbeing and making him happy. The problem is not that he asked her to stop watching TV in bed, and not that he asked her to try abstaining from doing it.

I'll ask her about this. I feel like we dont talk enough. I'm a little conflicted about what I want. I need more sleep, and SF. She has zero interest in "romance" or sex.

"She should care enough about your happiness and comfort..."

Ah.. Yeah, that would be a good start. I've pointed out some Annoying Habits to her, but, next to a lack of intimacy and sex, this TV thing is the biggest issue.

The problem is that your wife is in withdrawal. When you are in withdrawal you don't care about your annoying habits or any other love busters for that matter. First you have to entice her out of withdrawal. The repair work comes later.

And I can't imagine having a television in the bedroom. My heart goes out to you on that one :-)

Thank you!! Agree 95%

DW doesnt feel inclined to meet SF, and TV was a huge obstacle. And she likes LifeTime "Guess Who killed the wife/GF today", horror, and Desperate Housewives Anywhere. Not the least Romantic, and in fact, leads to quite a bit of paranoia.

NYC, it seems to me that your problem is not with the specific issues that you complain about here, but with your marriage as a whole. You are trying to deal with specific complaints on specific issues within your marriage, but you will get no success (or very limited success) with your complaints because the foundation, where your wife wants a mutually satisfying, romantic and fulfilling marriage as much as you do, is missing. Therefore all your complaints are irritations to her.

If your wife were in love with you, then first, your complaints would be resolved very quickly because your wife would want to make you happy.

Somehow you need to achieve what MrAlias has achieved and get your wife to take seriously your unhappiness with your marriage. If you do not make her see that your marriage is in crisis because of your unhappiness then none of your complaints will ever become resolved.

I'm pretty sure that watching TV to fall asleep is a childhood habit, not something deeper. My thought here is she might find a new habit of falling asleep, or engaging in Intimate Conversation or SF with me. We dont meet our 15 hours, and this is a lost opportunity.

Lol. Anger? Hatred? Nah.

I'm proud she taught sleep deprivation techniques at Guantanamo Camp X-Ray. I just wish she wouldn't bring her work home with her.

JUST kidding!

But no wonder I'm stressed out before I even get to work. And I've told her that.

Totally agree. But that first step is a doozy.

This is why I'm here. She says thats what she wants, but she thinks I'm the problem; she doesnt think 'marriage is work' and she's not doing that.

Ultimately, she's 'lost respect for me' that I'm too nice, and dont fight hard enough for my and my families' interests. I've changed jobs, layed off, let go, too many times, (financial crisis, merger, layoffs, lost client account) and cant afford her a glamorous lifestyle. We agreed long ago, that she would be home and raise the kids instead of working. Now she forgets that. We have 3 great kids because of that decision. That is our treasure.

So part of my "putting my foot down" is to show her I deserve her respect, care, and comfort. Its part of negotiation to ask for what you want.

NYC,

Sorry, I have not read your entire thread. Have you and w read the "Lovebusters" book? Have you read how to negotiate and the POJA?

You say your wife is not supportive of MB and she is generally satisfied with your marriage. Yet, you are not. What ENs is she not meeting? Others besides SF? Did you read the article, "question for the ages: how a man can get the sex he wants." or something close to that title?

AM

Yes, yes, and yes. I've read the books and articles. Filled out the questionaire etc I am last on her list, SF leads the list, but she is also not affectionate. She agrees its a good program, but I have to dig more to find out her reluctance.

When I came home today, DW was very sullen and withdrawn. "how was your day?" no response. I sat with her on the couch, and watched TV (instead of dojng my HW). No interest in discussing POJA. She said she was glad for the warmth, she was freezing. Later she fell asleep on the couch, then we went to bed.

However, I think I made another mistake. Earlier in the day we were texting about a DDS appt, and a potential job in TX. Then I saw an article on the "7 health benefits of sex" so I sent it to her. Then she stopped texting. Dang. I messed up.

Yep, you did mess up. Tell me, was sending "educational articles" any part of the advise to men about how they can get the sex they need? No????

AM

I asked her, she said no, she's just tired. I was just trying to be flirty, but I think she was already mad, and saw no humor in it. I sure hope she sleeps better over the next week or it won't work. She has a state exam on saturday that she is worried about, but she gets 95% on the practice exams, and only needs a 70 to pass.

I'm going to this new counselor 2/5, and they said they would invite her if she would participate. Would love for her to talk to somebody objective.

I re-read the "question of the Ages" article. One of our problems is that DW cant identify ANY activities that lead her to feel romantic. And I feel like she has developed a strong aversion to sex and me. i've tried to talk with her about this, and I've posted that here before as well.

She is upset that we're not millionaires so I seem like a lifetime of disappointment to her. I'm currently searching for a new job, but O has put the economy in the crapper. I'm also taking an SAP course to get a better job. I currently work on Wall St. The day after I got this job, she said, "You make a lot of money, but you should really be making X+50k". So, zero celebration of hubby's new job, just disappointment. I had bought champagne, which she lives, but its still unopened. (For the most part, she wont have a drink with me at home, only when she goes out with friends. perplexing. )

I would like to explain my reasonings for what I said to Runner.

In Runner�s case his wife isn�t involved in MB and therefore doesn�t follow POJA and they seem to be at odds with each other. Suggestions from him are going to sound and feel like demands to her. JMHO. That doesn�t mean he shouldn�t try to negotiate but rather develop a style of negotiation that offers guidance towards better behaviors in doing so. She has to know he has her best interests at heart not just his own. Sure turning of the TV helps him � but it also seems to create an issue for her. He�ll be sleeping and she�ll be next to him tossing and turning unable to sleep (evidentially). Which is more important?

I�m not sure we got the whole story regarding this conversation but I�ll assume we did as that is all he wrote.
She stated she was aware he was trying to negotiate. She said she didn�t see any benefit in this for her (not enthusiastic about turning off the TV). He asked her for an alternative and he followed it up with a suggestion (do it anyways to see if you can). The delivery of this suggestion can make all the difference in the world. The problem lies in that that was probably the end of the conversation. There wasn�t a continuance of �what should we do� but rather both of them sulking off upset over the whole conversation. �He only wants what he wants.�. �She only wants what she wants.�. In this situation of Runners maybe I�m wrong but I am definitely of the opinion it is the little ways we conduct these interactions that make a very big difference in which direction further feelings and discussions go.

In my case I have a wife in the past who would sacrifice � and then not discuss her resentment. She wears her emotions on her sleeve so I can tell when something�s off but then she wouldn�t offer any information that helped to negotiate. She still does this a bit today albeit we�re more open and honest since counseling so it�s improved. Back when if I were to make a suggestion without first brainstorming with her she�d do it, resent me for it, display passive aggressive behaviors, etc and our R would go in the wrong direction. The conversations we�d have would never take that next step toward a healthier behavior. We are two grown adults. Let�s talk this through, scour our brains for a win/win. I don�t want to get what I want if it means she feels she�s losing out.

I have to be careful in this situation to do as Dr J. instructed us to do and that is to build our R as a team working together to better the M. My suggestions are the ideas that get written down and voted upon and aren�t action items unless she�s enthusiastic about the decision.

I believe Runner�s situation is very similar to where my situation was. I had an OK marriage but things just weren�t quite right. No affairs, no AOs, some form of assemblance and unity regarding family duties, etc. But I was long, long tired of not getting my needs met and I suspect she was long, long tired of our goofy little dance that kept us together but not romantically in love.

I�ve spent countless days and made countless posts trying to communicate my situation here on this forum to no avail. Until the dynamic changed to one where her and I were a team, working together to better us, it was always contentious, always not quite right. The other thing that made a big difference was to allow someone other than me to educate my wife about the healthy and unhealthy behaviors for our M. Resentment Types A and B as I�ve said before were a big eye opener for my W and that discussion came from Dr J. Not me. It has opened the door for both of us to be more open and honest about how things make us feel. Runner�s W doesn�t understand or buy into that resentment mentality for reasons unknown (is she selfish or protecting herself because she feels she has to?).

Unless Runner can get his wife to join in MB he�s going to have a much harder time turning that little corner that makes a big difference. JMHO. I have been quick to point out his reactions to his situation because he is here and she�s not. He has to go that extra mile because he�s more or less going it alone. I try to avoid saying too much that would only further his resentment of his wife.

Mr. Alias, I see your point and it is well taken. I've tried to negotiate this point with her several times. I even bought her wireless TV earphones. But the batteries die, then she puts them away. That was better for a while, but it is really annoying when commercials, etc flicker with bright light. I end up with the covers pulled over my head, steamed.

So I tried to be very gentle approaching the subject. It was like pulling the pin on a grenade. Then she got up and walked away. Yes, she had an AO. I remained calm. I tried to ask her input. She only saw it as black or white. She ignores the premis "do nothing if you dont agree." She wants to keep doing what she wants regardless of me.

I'm trying, and do appreciate the advice. I brought home the negotiation steps, but she didnt want to discuss them. I feel such hostility over this TV thing, like she's ready to pack her bags over it. Certainly no sex for a month at least. And now, I'm not interested either. So, no, I dont think I handled it well, but it was a good attempt. For one, Next time, I would start off far more neutral, asked her to talk about it rather than start off with my suggestion.

MrA's posting is right on the money. You have to decide if you can continue to live like this or not. Until then, your wife will do what she pleases.

If you wish her to get on board with MB you are going to have to tell her that you cannot continue the relationship as you are and that YOU are the one who will be packing your bags. She needs to know that you are 100% serious, no empty threats. Of course, if she is prepared to put in the work you will also need to find that UA time. . .