Hello Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Usually people feel things are a ‘duty’ when they aren’t enthusiastic about the deal. Implementing POJA is a way to negotiate without someone having to feel like they are performing a ‘duty’ because they are mutually enthusiastic.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I get that. But, I guess I am suprised that she said that. I mean, I do not force anything on her. I do not ask for SF every night. In fact it has been a long time. Since the beginning of April, I have asked for SF twice. Once she agreed and once she did not. So I guess, I was a bit suprised that she felt like it was a duty. So I guess, I am wondering if I should modify what I was planning to say tomorrow regarding SF. Maybe something like this:

Physical Intimacy: In my World, this is one of the most wonderful gifts a person can give another. More than being a physical act in itself, the feeling of being desired and wanted by someone I desire and want is the most intoxicating feeling I know of. This mutual sharing is the main way I feel close or connected to someone. It is the ultimate form of my partner trusting me, through them being open and "letting themselves be open" with me. Being physically intimate is allowing one's self to be vulnerable with one another. This vulnerability and trust is something I find extremely attractive and cherish. I would never want to do anything to make my partner not feel comfortable with this precious gift. Ways that I like physical intimacy: sometimes I like to just make out; other times I would just like to cuddle; some of the time I would like sexual intercourse (desired frequency for me would be 1 - 2 times per week).

What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seriously? The easiest way I’ve found is to hone my negotiation skills to such a fine point that I don’t walk away from the table until BOTH of us are enthusiastic. Until that happens, we’re not done.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of my W's tactics is to walk away in the middle of things. If we are not done and I dare try to follow her, things get a whole lot worse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How you act in the middle is that you become honest about your needs but WITHOUT dictating, demanding, or forming expectations. You learn to NEGOTIATE to have your needs met. What generally ends up happening is that you don’t ever really get to where you ‘want’ to be needs wise but you end up somewhere that you’re happy with.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot help but have the expectation for myself that I will have a better sex life at some point in my life. I so hope we get to this point you mentioned above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The stage you’re at right now is the stage where you’re setting up negotiations. You’re not supposed to go in there and say ”Honey, do this to show you love me.” You’re supposed to go in there and negotiate what you can be mutually enthusiastic about. That means brainstorming away from your ideals and meeting together somewhere in the middle. Now, I don’t mean negotiate away your NEEDS (Oh, goodness, no.) but negotiate HOW they’re met. Be open to some different ideas on what would meet your needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying, but I am definitely negotiating from a point of weakness. My needs are not being met now and they may not be in the future. I am currently meeting my W's needs. What do I have left to give?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is the nitty gritty. This is where the communication lines that have been closed need to get open. If they don’t open, you’re just not going to get where you’re going.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Actually, it is interesting. I will give you an embarassing example. After the get together on Friday, we got home and I said (at some point in our conversation) that we never got a chance to really explore each other. I said that I would of liked to have had a point in our R where we felt comfortable enough with each other to talk about things like OS. She said, "I tried that and you said I did not! So I don't talk about it anymore." OK, so her idea of OS and mine are obviously way different. But this does not matter. The fact remains that even a month ago, she could not say the word sex in a conversation with me. Now we just had an albeit brief discussion on OS. Realizing how lucky I felt that we managed to have this small talk and not end up in different rooms, I let it drop and it was the last frank talk we had. I am hoping this means that my W has maybe moved to a point where we might be able to talk about some things. I am aware, that things are extremely sensitive for us right now. I know that I can very easily say the wrong thing tomorrow and ruin things for us for a while.

Another thing is that my W's mood is so dictated by the wheather. Today is a beautiful day. Probably the best wheather we have had in three weeks. She just called me and was in such a great mood it was untrue! Now, I cannot tell you what a boost it is for me to get a great phone call from my W in the middle of the day. It completely puts me in a good mood.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, for what it’s worth, I think your MC is moving too slowly. This should be a faster progression and implementation of this. That’s why I’m always pushing you. Well, ok, not always.. but have 2 good weeks and I’m pounding on the table for you to bring things up. You’ve been doing quite well now for long enough. Get your needs out there. Your goal is to state them clearly and describe them (for now). SOON AFTER, needs to come dialogue and negotiation. But not immediately after, give her some time to process.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you 100%, but I do not really know what I can do about it. I have talked with her on these things even based upon some of your suggestions. I wish she would pick up the pace.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What’s in place in MB to keep you from ‘giving away the store’ is Radical Honesty: Speak honestly about your feelings and needs. POJA – don’t do things you aren’t enthusiastic about. And, finally, boundaries.

Your biggest tool is Radical Honesty. You’re not happy. Stop being silent about it. Yes, speaking up will cause conflict. The basic over view for a withdrawn spouse is as follows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right... But, this comes with issues. My W looks at my radical honesty as complaining or saying something is not good enough. This just starts the spinning then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, understand what withdrawal is and what it means. People withdraw when they’re tired of being hurt or not having their needs met. They go to a place of safety within themselves because they are afraid to invest in the relationship. It’s a method of conflict avoidance – they’ve usually tried some form (mild to extreme) of conflict to resolve the situation and haven’t had results. In order to entice someone out of withdrawal, you first have to offer her some hope that you are capable of meeting her needs and stop the Lovebank draining behaviors (LB’s). You fill her lovebank for a time, without expecting that she will be able to fill yours. Then, you use radical honesty and POJA to negotiate to have your needs met. This will invariably lead you back INTO conflict. BUT, this time, you’re going to handle conflict differently. This time you’re not going to use selfish demands or DJ’s in conflict. This time you’re going to stay at the negotiating table until you’re both mutually enthusiastic. You stay in conflict until you resolve the conflict. You have to face it. THAT is your middle ground. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of the issue is knowing if you are ready to move into the radical honesty and POJA phase. If you try too early, your spouse could fall back several steps. This is where I am using some of my frustration internally to help prop me up to state my needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In no way would I assume he’s doing it in a ‘bad way’ to punish me or because he’s trying to be spiteful or vindictive. I wouldn’t see this as something he needs to change about himself because it’s ‘wrong for him to love me less’ I’d see it as a problem we need to work out by finding something that he does like to do instead of kiss me or work out by figuring out why he’s in withdrawal. What needs have I missed? Am I LBing? Is something else going on?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then you sit back, get comfortable, and say: ”Well, I can see we have some work to do on this. Let’s brainstorm.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I see. Hopefully your partner will brain storm with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don’t be sorry. You’re not giving me any headaches. They’re good questions. I hope my answers help. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your answers always help. Thanks so much. I will let you know what happens after MC tomorrow.

Take Care,

EL

Extremely Lost

Because I know you’re leaving soon…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Physical Intimacy: In my World, this is one of the most wonderful gifts a person can give another. More than being a physical act in itself, the feeling of being desired and wanted by someone I desire and want is the most intoxicating feeling I know of. This mutual sharing is the main way I feel close or connected to someone. It is the ultimate form of my partner trusting me, through them being open and "letting themselves be open" with me. Being physically intimate is allowing one's self to be vulnerable with one another. This vulnerability and trust is something I find extremely attractive and cherish. I would never want to do anything to make my partner not feel comfortable with this precious gift. Ways that I like physical intimacy: sometimes I like to just make out; other times I would just like to cuddle; some of the time I would like sexual intercourse (desired frequency for me would be 1 - 2 times per week).

What do you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like your old one better. It’s more direct, clear, and to the point. This one sounds too over done and subtly pressuring by building it up so much. It makes me uneasy.

More on the rest later.

Mys

I know your wife walks away from you, and you may need to state a boundary on that at some point.

But at this point I think she walks away because she sees nothing in it for her by staying and continuing to talk. Most conversations that you've reported here where the two of you disagree basically consist of each of you stating what you want. And that's really pretty much it. Sometimes you both defend why you want what you want or try to argue why the other person should want it, but it all really comes down to you each say what you want and then you're stalemated. I think your wife walks away because she doesn't see the converstation going anywhere except more repetition of points already made.

We've talked a lot here about building agreement and negotiating, but I don't really recall much in the way of examples of the two of you doing these things successfully. There have been more examples where you've been unhappy with a conversation, and posters here have pointed out to you that the conversation had no building agreement and negotiating in it.

Mys - Thanks for the advice. I'll leave it as is.

MOS - I get your point. There have been a couple of profound times that we did build agreement. Its probably buried back about 8 pages ago or so. But you are right, it is not a lot, just a few times.

Thanks guys, I'll let you know tomorrow how it all went.

EL

Hey EL,

I just had a wee brainstorm on the negotiating thing and the problem of your wife walking away from arguements.

Given that she walks away because she'll get no benefit by staying...

And given that you want to get her to stop walking away but stay and talk...

Naturally anything that would hurry up the process of her coming to see that she gains by staying and talking would help.

Then I thought that a number of times when talking about how to negotiate and kicking around options, we've talked about howt to take what you want and add things to it that would allow your wife to be enthusiastic about it.

I think that it might make a real difference if you do the reverse every chance you get for a bit -- find out what your wife wants, then offer up suggestions of what could be added to make you enthusiastic about what she wants.

The first example that comes to mind is now a nonissue -- I'm thinking of when your wife wanted to postpone working on the marriage a bit to focus on your son. I totally agree with mys that it's time to get that list you were asked to repair into the game at MC. But hypothetically, if you were back in time having that conversation with your wife...

Start with what she watns: a break from the actively working on the marriage problems. Ok, what could make you enthusiastic about that? I'm pretty sure you couldn't enthusiastically agree to a break of unspecified duration. So there would have to be a time limit. And something to make you feel enthusiastic about the break during that time. Maybe if you wife agreed to come give you a big squishy hug every day when you got home from work? Or maybe if you made a date to cuddle every night for 5 minutes before going to sleep? (You could get really cute for that last one, and do a little extra spiffing yourself up at bedtime and say you've got a hot cuddle date with a gorgeous woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Anyhow, I'm hoping what I'm saying is making sense. Your wife doesn't feel secure that there's room to negotiate, and you want to convince her otherwise. I think using what she wants as the starting point in negotiations for a bit will drive the point home that the game has changed. Something to think about anyway....

Hey guys,

Well, lets see. We show up at the MC and I have some papers (my list) with me and my W asks what I have. I tell her and she says, "Don't you think that we should still talk about or S?" Realizing that I was just presented with the direction of a cliff edge, I said, "Honey, I thought we had agreed that our S was going through a phase. He has been doing well over the last week and I felt things have been moving along." My W said, "He is, but, I have more questions." I said, "OK, we can take all the time we need to get answers about our S."

So, the session beings and the MC asks about our S. My W goes into many different discussions regarding our S. Finally the MC says, "Well, good, it sounds like your S is doing fine. Lets refocus back to you guys. How are you doing?" I said, "Well, I have my homework you assigned me a month ago." The MC said, "Good." I then began with explaining how I was supposed to come up with a list of the things that I use to measure love. I explained how I felt that a person feels loved when their emotional needs are met. Therefore, I have prepared a list of my emotional needs in their order of importance. The MC said, "Good, lets go through them."

Now realize I now have about 15 minutes left in the MC session. My first EN was physical intimacy. As predicted my W became mad and angry. She folded her arms and said, "physical intimacy is not an emotional need." I said, "It sure is." The MC agreed with my W! I said, "Well there are many books out there that would disagree with you." I read through what I had went over on this sight. I went through all of it and did not hold back. In my description I say that a person becomes vulnerable to another during physical intimacy and I would never want to do anything that would make another person feel uncomfortable with their being vulnerable to me. My W immediately picked up on the word "vulnerable" and said, "This says to me that you want me to be vulnerable to you. You want to control me!" I said, "What I mean is that I see this vulnerability as one of the most cherished gifts you could give me. I certainly would not desire to do anything that would make you dislike feeling vulnerable with me. In the same token, I would also be vulnerable to you."

My W said, "Physical intimacy would be last on my list." I said, "I understand that physical intimacy would be last on your list, but this is a list of my ENs and what I need to be happy." My W said, "I feel like this has all been a set up. If we were just having sex all the time everything would be fine." I said, "Although physical intimacy is very important to me, if all we had together was physical intimacy, we would still be right here in MC because I would not be happy because my other ENs were not being met. Honey, I am being radically honest here. This is very difficult for me to come out and say all of these things openly to you. I need you to understand what my needs are and how important they are to me. My need for physical intimacy does not make me evil or bad or disgraceful. It makes me, me." She said, "Then you have lied to me because when we first met you told me how family and trust and honesty are the most important things to you. Now you are changing and telling me that sex is the most important. I feel like you have fooled me all along." This really hurt because I do not know how she can sit there and make this stuff up. Now I am feeling like I do not know who she is at all. I said, "Honey, I have not lied to you. I have remained consistent throughout our entire relationship. All of those things you have mentioned to me are very important to me. Physical intimacy is also very important to me. What bothers me is that we should be able to discuss these things, no matter what they are, without either of us closing down." She said, "I need all of these other things before I can even consider physical intimacy. I need to be able to trust you. You lie to me. I knew it was about time for you to be getting frustrated. Then you will get mad at me and I'll have to do something to get pas this." This hurt even further because I do not really lie to my W. At times I have told some white lies, but really small ones, but for these to have mounted to what she is now claiming, is over the top for me. I said, "So what your saying is that you just passify me from time to time? You think all is ok except for some three month cycle where my accumulated frustrations topple over and then you feel like you have to 'do something to get by?' I am surprised and shocked by your feeling like I lie to you. I do not understand why you feel this way. Could you please give me an example? I know it is hard, but it would help me." She then mentioned something she had mentioned previously in MC and said, "When our S was 2 weeks old you were putting your fingers in his mouth. I asked you if you had washed your hands and you told me yes. I knew you were lying to me." I said, "Honey, I am sorry for that and I was wrong; but, that was four and a half years ago. What will it take for you to forgive me for something that happened so long ago?" She said, "Its just an example. I cannot think of others right now." I said, "Look, since April, I have been going through life trying as hard as I can to meet your ENs. I have been trying to improve myself in ways that I understood you wanted me to. We both had poor communication skills and have been working hard at learning to improve them. As we move through trying to improve our M, we will encounter conflict in oreder to get past prior issues. Hopefully, the skills we learn in MC help us deal with this conflict in better and more positive ways than we have dealt with things in the past. This is where we are at. We are at a point where we have been moving along, with me trying to meet your needs and learning to communicate and now are at a place where I was hoping we could discuss things like physical intimacy. There is one thing I need to know from you. There are three possible answers. I need to know where you stand. Do you feel like intimacy is not likely now, but is more likely in the future; intimacy is not likely now, but is possible in the future; intimacy is not likely now and never possible in the future. Which statement describes where you are at right now?" She said, "I don't know. I can't answer that. How can I answer that?" I said, "I am sorry, but I feel it should not be something too difficult to answer and would be fair for me to know this information." She did not answer and so I said, "Imagine in a hypothetical situation that your biggest EN is trust. Imagine that we both know this is your biggest EN. Now imagine that I tell you I cannot give you trust until you not only meet my need for physical intimacy, but I need to go for an unknown period of time where I feel you are not going to slip into your old self and not participate in sex. How would this make you feel? This would be cruel and unusual punishment." She said, "So now I am cruel." I said, "No, I did not say you were cruel, I was describing the situation as cruel." She said, "You called me cruel, because if I am the person causing the 'cruel' situation, than I am also cruel." I said, "If I said my W is cruel, then I would be calling you cruel. This is not what I am saying. You are making a disrespectful judgment by saying that I called you cruel when I really did not." My W said, "So now I am disrespectful!" The MC stepped in and said, "You two are falling back into your old patterns again of defending yourselves. Stop and move on."

I said, "I have compiled a list of my ENs and what makes me happy and feeling loved. I understand that they are not particularly how you exactly feel, because they are my needs. I know I need these needs met in order for me to be happy. I am willing to put my needs off for a while to do what you feel I must do to prove my good intentions to you, however I cannot do this forever without seeing the possibility of my own needs being met." My W (as she through my paper of ENs) said, "I can't do this anymore! Now you are threatening me. You have hurt me and caused me pain for four years." I said, "Honey I am sorry that you feel I have caused you pain and hurt you for four years. I must say that I am shocked and confused that you feel I have caused you such pain. I do not understand how I have caused you so much pain." She said, "I can't believe you don't know why you have caused me so much pain." With this the session was over. Nice, eh?

So we left and my W got in her car. She was still teary. I walked up to her and said, "Honey, I never want to hurt you or cause you any pain. Please tell me when you are feeling this way so that I can know. I need you help to know how my actions effect you." She said, "You have trained me for four years to be like this. The last 6 months have been better, but, I need to learn that you have changed." I said, "Honey, I love you. I want for both of us to be happy. I am sorry for any pain I have caused." I left.


I am sure I have not captured all of the nuances of our session, but you get the jist. I feel so defeated. No matter how prepared I am (with all of your help here at MB) I cannot seem to get through to her. It seems as though she does not want me to get through. I do not get it. If she is so unhappy, so hurt, so in pain then why not just leave? Why not just tell me she does not love me. Why not? Why does she say she loves me and she wants it to work out? Why does she yoyo me through Hell and back? I really am frustrated now. I do not know what to do. I am so upset. I am really feeling like it is not worth it anymore. I am very dissmayed. Please help me.

EL

Extremely Lost

I think you did well. The purpose of the session was to put your needs on the table and assert that you’d like them to be met. I wish your MC would have been a little more on your side (didn’t you ask for her help?) *sighs*

Anyway, here are my thoughts. First, I get the impression that you’re sitting there beating yourself up because this was ‘too soon’. Stop that. It wasn’t. It was going to be this bad two weeks or two months from now.

Right now, your wife needs some time to process what you said. If she wants to talk about it (doubtful) then let that happen. Otherwise, button up your lip and leave it until your NEXT session when you should bring it up.

You did make a few mistakes, but none of them were too glaring. I won’t nit pick them now, but I’ll bring them up later in the week and closer to your next session.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sure I have not captured all of the nuances of our session, but you get the jist. I feel so defeated. No matter how prepared I am (with all of your help here at MB) I cannot seem to get through to her. It seems as though she does not want me to get through. I do not get it. If she is so unhappy, so hurt, so in pain then why not just leave? Why not just tell me she does not love me. Why not? Why does she say she loves me and she wants it to work out? Why does she yoyo me through Hell and back? I really am frustrated now. I do not know what to do. I am so upset. I am really feeling like it is not worth it anymore. I am very dissmayed. Please help me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, *hugs* EL, you did get through to her. She’s in conflict, remember? She’s running for the hills and away from what she’s afraid of addressing. Right now, she’s pushing all the buttons she knows how to push to get you to BACK OFF and continue the same destructive cycle that you’ve been on. But, you’re not going to. You’re going to stay in there respectfully and assertively. You can do this. But, for tonight and until your MC session give her space and time to process what you said.

I know this is painful and you’re in doubt. But, this conflict HAS to be resolved. It won’t be until you both face it. And, it’s not going to be easier if you feed it by ignoring it.

Mys

Actually EL, it all sounds like a huge step forward to me.

The purpose of this session was for you to honestly state your ENs. You did that and did it very well. That's a big hurdle and we're all proud of you.

And I think that's a big enough achievement for both of you for one session -- getting that out there.

I don't think some of the other old patterns coming up means that nothing good was accomplished. It just means there's more to do after this step, but we all knew that anyway.

Look again at the goal for this session: it was listing your ENs. That's was accomplished! Listing your ENs, your wife having time to process it, your MC having time to process it, your wife feeling emotionally ready to hear everything on your list, and your wife being able to give you some kind of answer on whether or not she can meet your ENs is all way too much to expect or hope for in one session. I think it's just fine those things didn't get done in 15 minutes. They all take time.

Now you knew the clue bat would be in here somewhere <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -- the part where you told your wife she should be able to answer your question about where she was at on the possiblity of meeting your SF EN was completely unfair of you. That was the first time she'd heard that question. It's not a simple question and she's going to need time to give you a considered radically honest answer. A better response: "Ok, you can't answer that now. Maybe you could think about it and we'll talk about it again here in a couple of weeks? I'd very much like to hear your perspective on this."

Oh, and you have my sympathy over your MC saying physical intimacy is not an EN. I'm a bit boggled by that one.

It might be the old confusion over sex versus sexual fulfillment. Sex is not an emotional need, but sexual fulfillment is. We see that confusion a lot on this message board. It's possible to have sex without it being fulfilling at all, which is why simply "sex" is not an EN.

It may also be that your therapist is thinking it's not an EN because it's not a universal EN. But then, there aren't *any* ENs that are universal. -- But maybe that part of it hasn't occurred to her.

It sounds like a very one sided counselor to me. I was afraid of that.

1. I do not see the MC giving your wife any homework.

2. I do not see the MC refereeing your wife and teaching her to listen to you and the fact that your "feelings" are valid as well as your wife's.

3. The MC allows the wife to spout her garbage without stopping her in any way. Therfore your wife completely controls the counseling sessions.

4. The crack about sex not being an EN is pure bull.

I would first get a new counselor, who does not take your wife's side constantly, who gives her homework and "holds her to doing it", who asks the wife pertinent questions like: "Will you ever want sex with him?" and others that are a little too direct for YOU to ask.....

And then, give it a few months with a new MC, and if your wife would not change, and continues to play uncaring word games and little "control games" with you, think about getting a new wife!

If my marriage had deteriorated to that point, where my spouse did not even care about my needs at all, I would pretty much give up. But I am me and you are you.

Thanks guys,

I appreciate the support. However, we only talked about my first EN. I did not get to go through the list through the rest of them. My W through the paper and left it on the floor. I picked it up when we left. When I was in the parking lot with her, I said, "You know, it took quite a bit for me to be able to compile this list. It is a list of exactly what makes me, as a person, happy. Maybe you would like to take it with you and read through the rest of it. I actually state that you are meeting some ENs for me right now." She said, "Do you want me to leave it in the car when I drop it off at the dealership?" I said, "No." Then I took it back and left. Do you think I should present it to her tonight when I get home?

I am feeling so confused right now. I did ask for help from the MC and she said, "No, you keep going and talk to your W." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I do not feel much has gotten through and that my W will go back to the norm of acting as if this MC session did not happen. Then she will complain about the next MC session the day before and show up in a bad mood. Then if we lead into talking about physical intimacy, then we most likely will repeat the session we just had. I do not see the positiveness or the light at the end of the tunnel. I also do not have the faith in the MC that she is going to really help bring this to light. However, you guys know that switching MCs is not an option on many fronts.

I do not know what to do..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

EL

EL

Baba,

I hear ya! Unfortunately a new MC is not an option. In earlier posts I describe how this is the third MC we have been to. I have prepped this MC extensively about our history and the fact that she is the third MC and my W probably will not go to any more MCs after her. Maybe she is taking a slow, conservative stance with my W because of all of the history. Maybe she is trying to "be on my W's side" in order to later use this bond to help her see things in a better light. I do not know. I am just so down right now.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you think I should present it to her tonight when I get home?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I wouldn't. However, I'd make sure that piece of paper was with me for the next MC session. Concentrate on getting through the list. Don't let all this fussing around get you off track.

Lay off and let her process tonight.

Mys

Yay EL! *toots horn*

You did great! You did such a good job of building agreement where you could and not backing down. Mys is right - your W will try to push all the buttons that have gotten you to back down before. It is your job to calmly stick to your message.

Yay!

Now I would try to keep the EN talk to a minimum until the next session. Be kind and loving and unconcerned about the talk. Show your wife that it is safe for her to open the door to negotiation because you aren't going to shove it down her throat at every turn. Help her see that you can argue, and you can state your needs, but that you aren't taking any power away form her. She can still trust that you will treat her kindly and that the house will be a safe place for her. Even in the midst of conflict.

I, actually, think it was good for the MC to let you take the lead. Because not only does your wife need to learn to listen, but you need to learn to be honest. And you did so well!

Hang in there. Try to see this as progress. Keep realistic expectations - this will be a hard time for you both. Your wife is not likely going to open her arms wide to changing an old habit. Baby steps...

*hugs*
lfc

Hey LFC,

Thanks for the kind words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did great! You did such a good job of building agreement where you could and not backing down. Mys is right - your W will try to push all the buttons that have gotten you to back down before. It is your job to calmly stick to your message.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not understand where you felt I had built agreement. I do not see it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I would try to keep the EN talk to a minimum until the next session. Be kind and loving and unconcerned about the talk. Show your wife that it is safe for her to open the door to negotiation because you aren't going to shove it down her throat at every turn. Help her see that you can argue, and you can state your needs, but that you aren't taking any power away form her. She can still trust that you will treat her kindly and that the house will be a safe place for her. Even in the midst of conflict.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LFC, thanks for this advice. It makes a lot of sense. I really needed this. Today, I have pretty much been in a bad mood. My W has called me a couple of times for some things and I have to admit that I have not been the warmest on the phone. I see now that I have to turn my mood around before I get home because I believe I am making a big mistake. Thanks.

Thanks for all your support. Hugs back at you!

EL

Well... I saw you building agreement in these examples... she tried to push your buttons by saying something that could be insulting to you.. you agreed with part of it and went on to squash the DJ that was inthe undercurrent of her words. Yay!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W said, "He is, but, I have more questions." I said, "OK, we can take all the time we need to get answers about our S."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This says to me that you want me to be vulnerable to you. You want to control me!" I said, "What I mean is that I see this vulnerability as one of the most cherished gifts you could give me. I certainly would not desire to do anything that would make you dislike feeling vulnerable with me. In the same token, I would also be vulnerable to you."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W said, "Physical intimacy would be last on my list." I said, "I understand that physical intimacy would be last on your list, but this is a list of my ENs and what I need to be happy." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If we were just having sex all the time everything would be fine." I said, "Although physical intimacy is very important to me, if all we had together was physical intimacy, we would still be right here in MC because I would not be happy because my other ENs were not being met. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Those were great!

I'll let Mys do the nitpicking as there were other opportunities for agreement like:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said, "I need all of these other things before I can even consider physical intimacy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is where you had opportunity for negotiation. She was telling you what she needs in order for SF to happen. Or at least there was room to have a convo on it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> True - you don't like what she had to say and disagree witht he lying stuff - but that was wehre the door opened a crack.

At any rate EL - I think you did great. You slipped back into some old habits ehre and tehre - but overall it was much improved! Those quotes above made it seem like you had a little Mys sitting on your shoulder! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hang in there... and put on your unconcerned face. Practice saying this "I'm glad that we can talk about things in MC - I really hope it can be a place where both of us can work to make each other happy! I expect it will be hard like that sometimes, and that's no fun, but I love you dear and am glad we are doing it together...."

or some other positive and unconcerned words of appreciation for MC and your lovely W. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

lfc

I admire you all with the patience with your spouses that I would not have. I think I would grit my teeth so hard so as NOT to LB that I would start breaking teeth.

I am glad of all of you who are more patient than me.....that way maybe your spouse can grow despite themselves.

Maybe her resistance is a sign of growth. A sign that you are getting close to important areas...

Hey EL,

I just wanted to chime in and commend you on a job well done. I have really seen some dramatic changes in the way you act and react to your W.

I now you're feeling down but I think you need to look at the bigger picture. You've changed! Your W commented things are better so she's noticing the changes. Unfortunately she has such an aversion to sex that she gets hot and bothered when the topic comes up.

You did a good job of stating your case in regards to SF (Sorry the C isn’t working as well as we’d like). So I think the others have a great plan for you. Continue with your good behavior and then next week concentrate on getting those other ENs out there. Emphasis their importance so your W understands it isn’t just about S-E-X.

She said it herself. She’s not ready for physical intimacy until other things change. I know it’s hard to give up SF and you’ve been going w/o for too long. But if you want this M to work than focus on building agreement with your W. Get your other needs out there. Get her to get her needs out there. Then work together to build agreement on ways to get those needs met and those Love Banks filled up.

My W has a bit of an aversion to sex herself. Yet because I’ve filled her tank a lot she’s willing to be vulnerable to me because she loves me so much. I would hazard to guess that, someday, your W will feel the same way. Someday she’ll be beyond this state of how you hurt her in the past, she’ll understand you're more than a horny man looking for sex and she will feel loved and appreciated. Then her aversions to giving what you need will be gone.

Anyway I would encourage you to look at how the glass is half full and not how it is half empty. It is half full because you’ve done a great job of developing good habits with your W. Keep it up. It won’t happen overnight but keep being respectful and things will slowly get better.

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: MyAlias ]</small>

Extremely Lost

First, old business…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One of my W's tactics is to walk away in the middle of things. If we are not done and I dare try to follow her, things get a whole lot worse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, following someone when they are trying to disengage is a recipe for disaster. Instead, allow the conversation to go in that moment but pick it up at a later time. Persistence is the key. As long as all she has to do is walk away from you to avoid the painful subject of change, she’s not going to choose otherwise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I cannot help but have the expectation for myself that I will have a better sex life at some point in my life. I so hope we get to this point you mentioned above. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We all hope that for you, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you are saying, but I am definitely negotiating from a point of weakness. My needs are not being met now and they may not be in the future. I am currently meeting my W's needs. What do I have left to give? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don’t negotiate with your giver; negotiate with your Taker! Your taker should be there looking out for your interests. Now, that doesn’t mean you’re trying to take advantage of HER by try to convince her to do something she’s not enthusiastic about. It does mean that you ask for what you want, respectfully, and you don’t agree to something you’re not enthusiastic about. And, you don’t end the negotiation until you find something that works (or works well enough to give it a trial period).

It’s helpful if you think of negotiation as an ongoing process rather than an event. An event can be walked away from or be unsuccessful. An ongoing process is ongoing and doesn’t end until resolution happens. That resolution often isn’t where you expected to end up, but that’s not always a bad thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another thing is that my W's mood is so dictated by the wheather. Today is a beautiful day. Probably the best wheather we have had in three weeks. She just called me and was in such a great mood it was untrue! Now, I cannot tell you what a boost it is for me to get a great phone call from my W in the middle of the day. It completely puts me in a good mood. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is too funny. I’ve often said that my moods are tied to the weather. I thought I was the only one like this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you 100%, but I do not really know what I can do about it. I have talked with her on these things even based upon some of your suggestions. I wish she would pick up the pace. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs and shakes her head* I just don’t know…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right... But, this comes with issues. My W looks at my radical honesty as complaining or saying something is not good enough. This just starts the spinning then. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, that’s the conflict part coming out. I’m smiling because I keep telling you “Expect Conflict!” and you keep saying “My wife doesn’t like that!” Well, yeah. People don’t tend to like conflict… that is why they develop strategies like withdrawing to avoid it! It doesn’t mean it’s not necessary sometimes, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, I see. Hopefully your partner will brain storm with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If not, take the lead and start listing possible solutions – no matter how absurd they might be. That’s one thing I absolutely adore about Baba, she makes the most marvelous brainstorming lists!

So, next time you have to brainstorm, pretend you’re Baba and try to figure out what kinds of things she’d list. Well, ok, maybe not.. but I bet it would be a blast!

Now, new business…

I really think your MC session went as well as could be expected. I realize it upset you but I really like the way you presented many of the things we discussed. As LFC pointed out, you responded in different ways than you used to respond.

We predicted that she would be upset and feel as though you had this ‘hidden agenda’ to get sex if you mentioned SF.

Extremely Lost, I think it would be helpful if you try to understand that no amount of explaining how things should be or what the process should look like is going to diffuse her emotional reaction. She’s not wired that way. It just has to run it’s course. It’s like opening that can of worms and peeking inside. A couple of the worms popped out. Right now, she has to process through some of her negative emotions and fears about the topic.

Please try to understand that, while those fears are VERY REAL and valid for her, they don’t necessarily have to accurately reflect how you feel about yourself. You don’t have to ADOPT her point of view in order to be supportive and help her process her feelings. You can learn to agree THAT she feels a certain way without agreeing WITH her feelings. So, you can agree THAT she feels you’re only after more sex without agreeing WITH her that you’re only after more sex. The power of that method is that you can discuss the issue with her as a real issue.

So, what would it mean for her to face her fear (objectively true or not) that you want more sex? Or, even that you ONLY want more sex? What does that mean to her and to your relationship? If it were me, the next time she brought it up, I’d ask.



ELW: "I need all of these other things before I can even consider physical intimacy. I need to be able to trust you. You lie to me. I knew it was about time for you to be getting frustrated. Then you will get mad at me and I'll have to do something to get pas this."

*taking a slightly different tangent instead*

EL: All right, let’s talk about that. You sound frustrated and you feel that I lie to you. What kinds of things do you think you have to do in order to get past this? Do you mean you have to do things for me? Or, do you mean that you have to do things for yourself to feel better? I don’t understand what you mean here. What don’t you want to do? Have sex?



Now, take this with a grain of salt. The answer you hear is likely to be extremely disturbing to you because I suspect that you won’t want your wife to feel <however she feels>. The trick is to not jump to DJ’s and conclude that it means anything other than what she’s telling you. In other words, be prepared for her to say “NO! I don’t want to have sex!” But discipline yourself from believing that means “now, or in the future” or “because I don’t love you”. Don’t APPEND anything in there. Don’t argue with her. Make it very, very safe for her to express opinions and thoughts that you don’t like or agree with.

Now, you’re not doing this because you’re a glutton for punishment. You’re doing this because until she can talk about how she FEELS about the situation, she’s not going to be able to talk about what she should DO about the situation. You have to be open and willing to listen to her thoughts no matter how negative they might be. Yes, I know it’s hurtful. But, take heart, feelings can change. After all, they changed to what they are now, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you feel like intimacy is not likely now, but is more likely in the future; intimacy is not likely now, but is possible in the future; intimacy is not likely now and never possible in the future. Which statement describes where you are at right now?" She said, "I don't know. I can't answer that. How can I answer that?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In case you missed it, that was an “I’m unsure.” She doesn’t know. That means she’s not sure whether intimacy will be possible in the future. If she DID know, she’d have known how to answer that question: “Yes, I think we can get there.” Or “No, there is no way I’m EVER going to let you touch me again.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said, "Honey, I love you. I want for both of us to be happy. I am sorry for any pain I have caused." I left. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I absolutely LOVE how you ended things here. A triple super duper thumbs up to you here! Wow. Wonderful. What a great message to leave her with.

I have to tell you, I really think you did great. I do. I’m sorry you’re so upset. I’m even sorrier to tell you that things aren’t going to get easier as you go into conflict, they get harder. But, you’ve done so many good changes, I think you can do it.

Mys