OK,

So usually when I get home my W and I share a small hug and kiss. When I got home last night, my W ignored me. I even went up to her and she acted as though I was not there. So I stood there and said, "So, this is it? We don't even do this now?" She said, "You were in a bad mood on the phone with me." I said, "I am sorry, but I was busy when you called me at work. I was in meetings. I am not in a bad mood now." She gave me a hug and a small kiss and the rest of the evening was transformed. She did not act moody or upset. She acted as though the MC session never happened that morning. I did not say anything and let the evening just happen. See, I am afraid, she is just going to live in denial that we ever tried to talk about SF. I think she believes all of the negative things she said are true and she takes them as fact in her mind. I know I am guessing at what she is thinking and this is a DJ. I am sorry, but I cannot help but feel as though she takes her words as fact and then lives as if, "if nothing is said then it does not really exist." This builds internal frustration with in me. Although we are getting along good, (as good as any roomates could ever get along), frustration builds with in me and then comes internally getting upset. I know you guys have advised to let her process things and this would be great if I actually had some sign that she was processing any of this, but I fear she really is just forgetting it. I fear that she will allow this all to be forgotten even if I bring it up in every MC session. I fear eventually, she will stop going to MC because she will have eventually built up so many negative feelings about that one hour a week because it is the only time we talk about SF. I had to throw my thoughts out there and here what you guys thought.

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well... I saw you building agreement in these examples... she tried to push your buttons by saying something that could be insulting to you.. you agreed with part of it and went on to squash the DJ that was inthe undercurrent of her words. Yay!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for showing me the examples. It is hard to actually see them as they are even if I write things down. Having someone point them out really helps. Thanks again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is where you had opportunity for negotiation. She was telling you what she needs in order for SF to happen. Or at least there was room to have a convo on it. True - you don't like what she had to say and disagree witht he lying stuff - but that was wehre the door opened a crack.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did pick up on that, but wanted to try and get through my assignment of listing my own ENs because I thought she would find striking similarities in the other ENs to her needs. Unfortunately, we never got past the SF. Maybe I should have jumped off the track and asked for her to list her ENs, but I know what she would have said because I have asked this before. She would have said, "I have already told you my ENs." This is not really true. Then I would have said, "Could you please try and clarify them." Then she would have said, "I don't know, I need to trust you." Now much to go on. So I felt it was more important and would accomplish more if I got through my list since it was thought out and in writing in front of them.

The one point I think I might have gotten across is that I need physical intimcay to be happy. If I am not getting physical intimacy, I am not happy nor willing to remain in a relationship where my happiness is not possible. I do not know if she really understood this or not. I know she sees my saying this as a threat and her natural reaction is to build a wall when she hears this and say, "Go away" because she is a very proud and stubborn person. I definitely did not want to push her in this direction. I do wish to somehow have her understand this and realize that it is not fair or a loving thing to do to expect a person to stay in a relationship if you are not willing to meet the needs required to make them happy. If you truly love some one, this is a very easy concept to understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At any rate EL - I think you did great. You slipped back into some old habits ehre and tehre - but overall it was much improved! Those quotes above made it seem like you had a little Mys sitting on your shoulder!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks! I did think of you guys while I was saying some of these things. My W even picked up on this and said, "Have you been reading those books again? It sounds like you have!" Believe me, my W did not mean this as a good thing for some reason. This is one of the times I defended myself and said, "I am trying to find any way I can to help improve our M."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hang in there... and put on your unconcerned face. Practice saying this "I'm glad that we can talk about things in MC - I really hope it can be a place where both of us can work to make each other happy! I expect it will be hard like that sometimes, and that's no fun, but I love you dear and am glad we are doing it together...."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, I will try and work on this. I know she will bring up the MC the night before by saying (in a dissapointing tone), "Oh yeah, do we have an appointment tomorrow?" I think I will wait until this happens, and it will, to say something like you suggested.

Thanks LFC

Baba -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I admire you all with the patience with your spouses that I would not have. I think I would grit my teeth so hard so as NOT to LB that I would start breaking teeth.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can completely relate. I have been apparently grinding my teeth in my sleep and clenching. I find that throughout a normal day, I have been clenching my jaw so much that I end up with a headache and painful jaw some times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am glad of all of you who are more patient than me.....that way maybe your spouse can grow despite themselves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am actually glad that the majority here have trouble writting off a person. It is good to see that people have the belief that people have inherent good in them and that it is possible to bring their good out. I have also seen this in you, with some of your replies! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe her resistance is a sign of growth. A sign that you are getting close to important areas...
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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe, but the thing that would go against this thought is that she has always been this resistant. An interesting thing is that all though this session ended badly (as I felt it did), I would have to score her as an 8 instead of a 10, where 10 is her in ultimate rage from these types of conversations in the past.

Thanks Baba

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just wanted to chime in and commend you on a job well done. I have really seen some dramatic changes in the way you act and react to your W.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. Me too. Once in a while I find myself in a situation that normally caused me to be concerned (based upon my past mistrust towards women in general). The funny thing is that when I realize I am in these situations, I have been in it for a while and have not reacted or thought about reacting how I used to. This tells me I am changing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I now you're feeling down but I think you need to look at the bigger picture. You've changed! Your W commented things are better so she's noticing the changes. Unfortunately she has such an aversion to sex that she gets hot and bothered when the topic comes up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know and this hurts. You know, the ironic thing is that as her aversion to even discussing the subject remains, I cannot help but build some resentment (although I try not to, but it is human nature) and I find that I become a little less attracted to her as time goes on. The really ironic thing is that if we happen to get through "her time frame for learning she can trust me and now desires to work on the M," it is going to take a time period for me to feel comfortable that I can actually trust that she means it and I can actually trust her that she is doing positive things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did a good job of stating your case in regards to SF (Sorry the C isn’t working as well as we’d like). So I think the others have a great plan for you. Continue with your good behavior and then next week concentrate on getting those other ENs out there. Emphasis their importance so your W understands it isn’t just about S-E-X.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I do not know what to think about the C any more. I guess I am still willing to let her have more time before I come to any conclusions. I plan to continue with good behavior, but it is difficult because I so want to be heard, understood and my feelings excepted by my W, let alone even acted upon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said it herself. She’s not ready for physical intimacy until other things change. I know it’s hard to give up SF and you’ve been going w/o for too long. But if you want this M to work than focus on building agreement with your W. Get your other needs out there. Get her to get her needs out there. Then work together to build agreement on ways to get those needs met and those Love Banks filled up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying. I will continue to push on, but I believe I am now (whether I like it or not) at a point where I must be consistent and not let my need for SF fall by the way side.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W has a bit of an aversion to sex herself. Yet because I’ve filled her tank a lot she’s willing to be vulnerable to me because she loves me so much. I would hazard to guess that, someday, your W will feel the same way. Someday she’ll be beyond this state of how you hurt her in the past, she’ll understand you're more than a horny man looking for sex and she will feel loved and appreciated. Then her aversions to giving what you need will be gone.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you are right too, but like you say, we are both only guessing at this point. She has not done me the kindness yet to answer the question as to if she sees SF as being possible for us (the way I'd like it even if there were some compromising necessary) in the future or not. Until I feel she is answering this question based upon some real effort and thought she has put in, I will continue to feel as though she is not being very nice to me. Feeling like this makes it very hard at time to fill her love bank knowing that she is not being even courteous or thoughtful of me. (Yes, probably a DJ, but it is how I feel)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway I would encourage you to look at how the glass is half full and not how it is half empty. It is half full because you’ve done a great job of developing good habits with your W. Keep it up. It won’t happen overnight but keep being respectful and things will slowly get better.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The key word here is slow. You know, another ironic thing is that for how slow things are going, lets say that right now we actually knew for a FACT that my W would eventually come around. The cruelness of life is such that, by then I will have been off my prime and not as interested in SF as I am now, but she will be entering her prime. Go figure.

Thanks MyAlias.

Thanks to all of you for your wonderful support. You guys are what is keeping me going right now. I cannot thank you enough.

EL

Hiya EL,

I thought maybe it would help if I talked a bit about what your question to your wife probably sounds like to her at this point. Here's your question as you posted it:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

There is one thing I need to know from you. There are three possible answers. I need to know where you stand. Do you feel like intimacy is not likely now, but is more likely in the future; intimacy is not likely now, but is possible in the future; intimacy is not likely now and never possible in the future. Which statement describes where you are at right now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would also find that an unanswerable question if I were in a problem spot in a relationship so bad I didn't want to have sex. Whether or not sex would be possible in the future would depend greatly on the behavior of my partner, so how can I know the answer, since I can't predict how he's going to behave in the future?

Some part of your wife will feel like this question is trying to trap her into committing to having sex whether or not you make it any fun for her, and her automatic reaction to that of "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" is actually very healthy on her part.

You've often said you hate not knowing if your needs are going to be met, and you worry that if your wife gets what she wants, she'll decide everything is fine and stop caring about what you want. She has the same fear about you -- she fears that if she opens herself up so far to be able to be physically intimate with you, you might stop making an effort to change and slip back into your controlling ways, and the pain of feeling betrayed after stretching to open herself up again is more than she can bear to contemplate.

I think it's good you asked the question, and I think it's good that she thinks about it. I suspect a radically honest answer on her part might be, "I don't know the answer; it depends to much on choices you make." That opens the door for asking what kind of choices she would like to see that would move the two of you closer together.

P.S. I'd advise avoiding using the word "intimacy" by itself to describe sex or sexual fulfillment, though qualified as "physical intimacy" is okay. When you just use the word "intimacy" alone, it makes it sound like you think sex is all there is to intimacy, and this is an incredibly unsexy attitude to many women, and I'm pretty sure that includes your wife.

*nods* what MOS said. That is a hard question to answer. From my POV it would have to have qualifiers. The parts about needs being met... meaning that I could see SF in the future... but a lot has to happen to get there.

I would feel trapped saying simple *yes in the future* because of that very fear that my needs would be ignored and maybe it is really all about SF for my H. All those negative thoughts come rushing in.

So what does that mean for you? Maybe you should add the caveat for her. Preface it with *in an ideal marriage*... then she has chance to say "well yes... duh... but we aren't ideal" and you can say "yeah. I know. It's sad. What can we do to move closer to ideal?"...

and good job with saving the evening. Don't get discouraged. It doesn't matter if she is putting it in a closet in her mind and not thinking about it in MC because you aren't putting it away and sooner or later she will come to realize that not only will she HAVE to do the conflict, but that you are ensuring that it will be safe for her to try.

think of the cat in the cage analogy... (or whatever that was... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Hang in there... try not to build so much resentment because it's not fixed yet. Rome wasn't built in a day... and your marriage didn't get here all at once so it will take time to retrace your steps back. But you're making progress. Try to focus on that when you are feeling down.

lfc

Hello Mys,

Our posts crossed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, following someone when they are trying to disengage is a recipe for disaster. Instead, allow the conversation to go in that moment but pick it up at a later time. Persistence is the key. As long as all she has to do is walk away from you to avoid the painful subject of change, she’s not going to choose otherwise.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I agree with your assessment here, which is why logic would actually say to follow her here. You see, if I just allowed conversations to end when she walks away because she thought things got too tough, then how would letting her continue to walk away and end conversations help? Yes, I think you are saying, let her walk away, but when she comes back, pick up the conversation. However, I really think this also serves to push her further away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We all hope that for you, too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. I appreciate this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don’t negotiate with your giver; negotiate with your Taker! Your taker should be there looking out for your interests. Now, that doesn’t mean you’re trying to take advantage of HER by try to convince her to do something she’s not enthusiastic about. It does mean that you ask for what you want, respectfully, and you don’t agree to something you’re not enthusiastic about. And, you don’t end the negotiation until you find something that works (or works well enough to give it a trial period).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Walked right into that one. What I meant was the word "give" was meant as a global or royal "give" which included my giver & taker. So you are saying move forward with trying to get some things back that make me happy. I am trying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs and shakes her head* I just don’t know…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, I know. Our Mc is very experienced. She has been doing this for 30 years. I do not understand why or what she is doing right now, but based upon my situation, where I believe I will not ever get my W back into an MC again, this MC happens to be our last chance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, that’s the conflict part coming out. I’m smiling because I keep telling you “Expect Conflict!” and you keep saying “My wife doesn’t like that!” Well, yeah. People don’t tend to like conflict… that is why they develop strategies like withdrawing to avoid it! It doesn’t mean it’s not necessary sometimes, though.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if I am bringing up the subject of SF, and doing it in the "correct" way, and she has a negative reaction to it as always, and I use my newly found communication skills as I have written to you guys yesterday, and my W still believes what she believes, where in the process does her change take place? Is it out of frustration for a repeating process on her end? Is it because some magical light comes on eventually in her head? Is it that eventually the Mc points out that she is now the one solely allowing the conflict to continue and my W interprets the MC's challenge as right and then starts to change? How does this magic happen? The frustrating thing for me is that I am now doing things in a manner that is correct with MB, and I am getting the same results. What kick starts my W? I understand things get tough and will get tougher, but I cannot take the continual blows to the head, when things do not show change after I have changed. Could you explain this a bit further to help me understand. I think there is something I am really not getting here. I feel as though you all are encouraging me to continue as I am, but what I get in return is an enraged W who once a week shows me how disgusted she is to be physical with me. You can imagine that this does not take long to turn me into something I do not want to become.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If not, take the lead and start listing possible solutions – no matter how absurd they might be. That’s one thing I absolutely adore about Baba, she makes the most marvelous brainstorming lists!

So, next time you have to brainstorm, pretend you’re Baba and try to figure out what kinds of things she’d list. Well, ok, maybe not.. but I bet it would be a blast!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have weird ways of having fun. But, eh, thats what makes you unique. When I recognize a situation that needs choices, I will come up with options. I will try.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really think your MC session went as well as could be expected. I realize it upset you but I really like the way you presented many of the things we discussed. As LFC pointed out, you responded in different ways than you used to respond.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you are right. Looking back on the session, I felt like my W was feeling like I was making things up because she was not use to what I was saying. I do believe she does not think I believe what I am telling her. My W believes in conspiracies and I would not put it past her to consider my efforts, my words, one big conspiracy to get her pants off.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We predicted that she would be upset and feel as though you had this ‘hidden agenda’ to get sex if you mentioned SF. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was an easy prediction after years of the same response from her. This is actually really sad if you think about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Extremely Lost, I think it would be helpful if you try to understand that no amount of explaining how things should be or what the process should look like is going to diffuse her emotional reaction. She’s not wired that way. It just has to run it’s course. It’s like opening that can of worms and peeking inside. A couple of the worms popped out. Right now, she has to process through some of her negative emotions and fears about the topic.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats fine and all, but how will her emotions actually run their course if I only try to discuss it with her in MC once a week and she then pretends that that session never happened? What if the MC actually asks me to lay of talking about SF? Then what? You see, I guess I am having trouble buying into that she is processing anything that has to do with the MC session. This is not a DJ, it is based upon repeated things from her actions and words from post other sessions. She forgets what was discussed in the previous session. Does not remember to do any homework, nor is pushed for it. How does her emotions run their course. I guess, I am going to remain trying to ask for SF respectfully and she is either going to decide to step up and deal with it or get tired of me and leave. Is this how it is to run its course?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please try to understand that, while those fears are VERY REAL and valid for her, they don’t necessarily have to accurately reflect how you feel about yourself. You don’t have to ADOPT her point of view in order to be supportive and help her process her feelings. You can learn to agree THAT she feels a certain way without agreeing WITH her feelings. So, you can agree THAT she feels you’re only after more sex without agreeing WITH her that you’re only after more sex. The power of that method is that you can discuss the issue with her as a real issue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, I am not letting her make me feel bad for being me or what I need. I am too head strong for this. Unfortunately, she is too head strong and would say the same things. We are like two magnets here pushing eachother apart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, what would it mean for her to face her fear (objectively true or not) that you want more sex? Or, even that you ONLY want more sex? What does that mean to her and to your relationship? If it were me, the next time she brought it up, I’d ask.


ELW: "I need all of these other things before I can even consider physical intimacy. I need to be able to trust you. You lie to me. I knew it was about time for you to be getting frustrated. Then you will get mad at me and I'll have to do something to get pas this."

*taking a slightly different tangent instead*

EL: All right, let’s talk about that. You sound frustrated and you feel that I lie to you. What kinds of things do you think you have to do in order to get past this? Do you mean you have to do things for me? Or, do you mean that you have to do things for yourself to feel better? I don’t understand what you mean here. What don’t you want to do? Have sex?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not know what it means to her to face her fears that all I want is sex. I do not know that she would ever be able to give me an answer either. You see, no matter what it is, I never get an answer. I never get the input necessary to make her truly happy. What are your ENs? "I don't know." Will you ever be able to be intimate with me? "I don't know." Now that I have improved upon the things that have caused you to withdraw from me emotionally in the past, can you trust me emotionally again? "I don't know, it takes time." You see, things have been pretty easy for her to keep our M where it is right now. The thing that she cannot count on or know where it stands is my frustration level and anger. Eventually, if she remains on the same course, say for another year, I will have been fed up enough with things that I finally will feel like I can no longer wait for her to make a decision as to how she feels on these things any more.

An interesting point to me from yesterday is how she said I have hurt her and caused her pain for four years. Well you know what, our issues aside, I do not mistreat her. I have never stood in her way on much of anything unless I was uncomfortable due to my mistrust issues. I never have physically harmed her. Mentally, ok, she says I have done some things to cause her to withdraw emotionally, like lie to her about washing my hands when our S was two weeks old. Fine, hang me. When we met, she was working two jobs and trying to stay afloat. We got pregnant after our first weekend together. We both moved from two different states to where we are now. She has never had to work again, other than being a SAHM, which I do understand is way more than a full time job. I bought her two new cars since I have known her. We have built a very nice house. I have purchased her the best in furniture, patio, hot tub and on and on and on. Our S has the best of everything and is spoiled. Our S goes to an upity pre-school two days a week and a music class on another day. We spared no expense (even at a time when my W did not have insurance) to get the best medical attention we could to try and figure out why she lost her desire, as well as other medical issues from the birth. My W has days where she just lays around during the week (from her own admission). I am working my A** off trying to secure a future for our S and her as well as pay for the nice things she wants. Yes, we have had issues for four years. The first two of those years we were not married. She married me two years ago. If I were causing her sooooo much pain and hurt and have been a person that makes her throw up at the thought of having sex with then why in the H*** did she marry me? I know most of the answers out there are going to be I don't know or she loved you. Either of these answers are not good enough. Because if she is using things from the two years prior to our M to establish why we are where we are, then it does not make sense she married me. If she married me because she loved me then she should have a desire to improve our M. All I have ever been trying to do is improve our M not just ask for sex. For 4.5 years this is what I have been trying to do.

I am sorry, but something set me off. It definitely was not you Mys. Sorry for the ramble.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, take this with a grain of salt. The answer you hear is likely to be extremely disturbing to you because I suspect that you won’t want your wife to feel <however she feels>. The trick is to not jump to DJ’s and conclude that it means anything other than what she’s telling you. In other words, be prepared for her to say “NO! I don’t want to have sex!” But discipline yourself from believing that means “now, or in the future” or “because I don’t love you”. Don’t APPEND anything in there. Don’t argue with her. Make it very, very safe for her to express opinions and thoughts that you don’t like or agree with.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds fun! Just kidding. This is going to be hurtful and difficult, but I can do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, you’re not doing this because you’re a glutton for punishment. You’re doing this because until she can talk about how she FEELS about the situation, she’s not going to be able to talk about what she should DO about the situation. You have to be open and willing to listen to her thoughts no matter how negative they might be. Yes, I know it’s hurtful. But, take heart, feelings can change. After all, they changed to what they are now, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In case you missed it, that was an “I’m unsure.” She doesn’t know. That means she’s not sure whether intimacy will be possible in the future. If she DID know, she’d have known how to answer that question: “Yes, I think we can get there.” Or “No, there is no way I’m EVER going to let you touch me again.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look, my W has known that I desire physical intimacy for quite a while. She also has know that not having physical intimacy is a huge issue. Therefore, I truly do feel that her being "unsure" is telling me something already. Don't you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I absolutely LOVE how you ended things here. A triple super duper thumbs up to you here! Wow. Wonderful. What a great message to leave her with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for letting me know this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to tell you, I really think you did great. I do. I’m sorry you’re so upset. I’m even sorrier to tell you that things aren’t going to get easier as you go into conflict, they get harder. But, you’ve done so many good changes, I think you can do it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know. I hope you are right. Thanks for having faith in me.

Thanks for your responses. As always, I do appreciate them.

EL

Hey MOS & LFC,

MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would also find that an unanswerable question if I were in a problem spot in a relationship so bad I didn't want to have sex. Whether or not sex would be possible in the future would depend greatly on the behavior of my partner, so how can I know the answer, since I can't predict how he's going to behave in the future? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats fair. I did not really consider this when Mys and I were discussing this question prior to the session.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some part of your wife will feel like this question is trying to trap her into committing to having sex whether or not you make it any fun for her, and her automatic reaction to that of "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" is actually very healthy on her part. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if she were being close minded then yes, you probably could turn it around to feeling trapped into having sex. First off, I asked her for possibilities, not guarentees. What was important to find out is the answer to "Are you open to ever having a full and enjoyable sex life with me?" If she says yes, I would take it as that is it. My W is merely agreeing that she is open to having an enjoyable sex life in the future. I am not stupid, especially with the personal H*** I have gone through for 4.5 years. I know that my W would be speaking in an ideal M. I know currently we are not in an ideal M. If she definitely does not see this as an option, which if she truly could not have sex with me and is disgusted with this concept, she should be able to answer this way. If she has not thought about this on her own, then we have some major issues that are going to need a psych ward to be able to handle. After all of my (what appears to her as) *****ing about no sex, if she has not even thought about or considered "could I ever have sex with him again?" then maybe I should be leaving the scene.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You've often said you hate not knowing if your needs are going to be met, and you worry that if your wife gets what she wants, she'll decide everything is fine and stop caring about what you want. She has the same fear about you -- she fears that if she opens herself up so far to be able to be physically intimate with you, you might stop making an effort to change and slip back into your controlling ways, and the pain of feeling betrayed after stretching to open herself up again is more than she can bear to contemplate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I see what you are saying. Out of love I have thrown aside my fears, my ego, my whatever and have been consistently trying to meet her needs. I have done this while my greatest fear is a reality: SHE IS NOT MEETING MY NEEDS NOR DOES SHE ACCEPT THAT MY NEEDS ARE VALID. So, at some point one has to go, "ya, honey, your situation is difficult, but suck it up and get with it or move on will ya. Your spouse is killing himself trying to meet your needs, what more could you ask from him!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it's good you asked the question, and I think it's good that she thinks about it. I suspect a radically honest answer on her part might be, "I don't know the answer; it depends to much on choices you make." That opens the door for asking what kind of choices she would like to see that would move the two of you closer together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats great and I would love for that to happen and I would love for my W to say, "Here ya go honey. Here is a list prepared that tells you all of my needs I need you to meet." What the heck? If you had your spouse going, "All I want to do right now is please you. Do whatever it takes to make you happy. All I need to know is what is it that will make you happy." Don't you think pretty much any of us would feel compelled to at least attempt at coming up with something for our spouse, like a list or at least a conversation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> P.S. I'd advise avoiding using the word "intimacy" by itself to describe sex or sexual fulfillment, though qualified as "physical intimacy" is okay. When you just use the word "intimacy" alone, it makes it sound like you think sex is all there is to intimacy, and this is an incredibly unsexy attitude to many women, and I'm pretty sure that includes your wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. I guess I should use sexual fulfillment.


LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *nods* what MOS said. That is a hard question to answer. From my POV it would have to have qualifiers. The parts about needs being met... meaning that I could see SF in the future... but a lot has to happen to get there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, OK. But I do believe that these things are all assumable. My W has gotten my attention through not meeting my needs. I have been going through anything I can to try and improve things. I have been the one to get an MC involved. Does she not get that I get it? I understand that her needs need to be met. I understand that she has felt hurt. You know what, my needs have gone unmet and I have also been hurt. I am saying, "OK, that sucks, bad on both of us. We now realize this. Lets show each other more respect and move forward." I just do not get and find it very hard to continually accept this double standard from my own W! She is not the only one in the M. She is not the only one who has been in pain or who has been hurt. I actually resent the entire wording from her yesturday. I really wanted to say, "How dare you claim you are the only one who has suffered. How dare you claim to be the only one in pain. How dare you claim I must be the one to jump through all of your hoops and ignore my own little 'unimportant' hoops I need you to jump through." I am sorry, but I can accept that I have not met my W's needs as much as she would like me to over the last 4.5 years. I also was unaware that I was not meeting these needs. Since I became aware, my entire life has been focused on meeting those needs. When my W understands that she is not meeting my needs, and claims that she cannot meet my needs because hers are being met, but she is not sure if I am going to always meet those needs, it really gets me upset. I am sorry LFC, I do not mean to take my anger out on you. I just am so passionate about our M that it just is killing me on the inside that my W is continuing to drag me through the mud, when I can tell you in my World, she has done equally as many things to me that have hurt me enough that make me not want to meet her needs, and yet I am moving forward for our M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would feel trapped saying simple *yes in the future* because of that very fear that my needs would be ignored and maybe it is really all about SF for my H. All those negative thoughts come rushing in.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am not denying you that your concerns are very valid. What if the situation was reversed and you said to your H I need to know if you can see a point in the future where you will be loving me and doing things that bring me emotionally closer to you? What if he were to say I don't know, it depends upon if you meet my needs (one of them being SF)? You would not like that answer very much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So what does that mean for you? Maybe you should add the caveat for her. Preface it with *in an ideal marriage*... then she has chance to say "well yes... duh... but we aren't ideal" and you can say "yeah. I know. It's sad. What can we do to move closer to ideal?"...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a good suggestion. If I had to spell out what I meant, this would be a great way to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and good job with saving the evening. Don't get discouraged. It doesn't matter if she is putting it in a closet in her mind and not thinking about it in MC because you aren't putting it away and sooner or later she will come to realize that not only will she HAVE to do the conflict, but that you are ensuring that it will be safe for her to try.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. Thanks on this. I thought of you when I did this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I really hope you are right. However, I cannot help but think she will just end up continuing to get annoyed at my respectful requests and eventually just leave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hang in there... try not to build so much resentment because it's not fixed yet. Rome wasn't built in a day... and your marriage didn't get here all at once so it will take time to retrace your steps back. But you're making progress. Try to focus on that when you are feeling down.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try and keep focused. I just feel like my heart is being ripped out.

Thanks for both of your advice. I do really appreciate it and have a large amount of respect for both of your opinions.

EL

Ok, I hear your frustration over trying hard but not seeing progress as fast as you want to.

But I think there are two things you need to remind yourself of today:

1. You keep saying you don't know for sure what your wife's ENs are. I understand you are trying to meet them as best you understand them, but there doesn't seem to be reason to assume you are fully meeting all her ENs. It sounds like there is pleny more to explore on how you can do that. I know the first thing you'll say is, "yeah but I wish she'd just give me a list". That's fine that you wish that. That's not the point I'm making right now though -- the point is that you probably aren't meeting all her ENs, so this bitter ranting about "I'm meeting all her ENs and she's not meeting mine" serves no purpose except to work yourself up against your wife. It's unhealthy and you need to stop it.

2. Meeting ENs is not enough when you're LBing. I know you've been working hard on this, and I definitely think you've made real progress, but I also think you're a long way from eliminating them. This is a fundamental MB principle -- so long as the LBs go on, you can't expect the Love Bank to stop draining.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some part of your wife will feel like this question is trying to trap her into committing to having sex whether or not you make it any fun for her, and her automatic reaction to that of "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" is actually very healthy on her part. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if she were being close minded then yes, you probably could turn it around to feeling trapped into having sex.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa, huge DJ there. How your question sounds and feels to her is valid. Flinging insults like "close-minded" is incredibly disrespectful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
First off, I asked her for possibilities, not guarentees. What was important to find out is the answer to "Are you open to ever having a full and enjoyable sex life with me?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, but that's not the question you asked. Taking what response you did get to a different question and applying it as an answer to this question is DJing again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she says yes, I would take it as that is it. My W is merely agreeing that she is open to having an enjoyable sex life in the future. I am not stupid, especially with the personal H*** I have gone through for 4.5 years. I know that my W would be speaking in an ideal M. I know currently we are not in an ideal M. If she definitely does not see this as an option, which if she truly could not have sex with me and is disgusted with this concept, she should be able to answer this way. If she has not thought about this on her own, then we have some major issues that are going to need a psych ward to be able to handle. After all of my (what appears to her as) *****ing about no sex, if she has not even thought about or considered "could I ever have sex with him again?" then maybe I should be leaving the scene.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From where I'm sitting this is a pretty strange-sounding rant for you to be on at this point in time. Of the three possibilities you put to her, it sounds pretty clear that the last one (no sex, ever) is the one that's not on the table, because she would have been able to say that. All the hysteria and emotional conflict she's exhibiting only make sense to me in context of she knows she's going to have sex with you, and wants you both to be happy with it, but is afraid the two of you won't work out a way where you're both happy and satisfied.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You've often said you hate not knowing if your needs are going to be met, and you worry that if your wife gets what she wants, she'll decide everything is fine and stop caring about what you want. She has the same fear about you -- she fears that if she opens herself up so far to be able to be physically intimate with you, you might stop making an effort to change and slip back into your controlling ways, and the pain of feeling betrayed after stretching to open herself up again is more than she can bear to contemplate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I see what you are saying. Out of love I have thrown aside my fears, my ego, my whatever and have been consistently trying to meet her needs. I have done this while my greatest fear is a reality: SHE IS NOT MEETING MY NEEDS NOR DOES SHE ACCEPT THAT MY NEEDS ARE VALID. So, at some point one has to go, "ya, honey, your situation is difficult, but suck it up and get with it or move on will ya. Your spouse is killing himself trying to meet your needs, what more could you ask from him!"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would hope she'd come straight back with "he could try quitting the LBs". And I'd be cheering if she did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it's good you asked the question, and I think it's good that she thinks about it. I suspect a radically honest answer on her part might be, "I don't know the answer; it depends to much on choices you make." That opens the door for asking what kind of choices she would like to see that would move the two of you closer together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats great and I would love for that to happen and I would love for my W to say, "Here ya go honey. Here is a list prepared that tells you all of my needs I need you to meet." What the heck? If you had your spouse going, "All I want to do right now is please you. Do whatever it takes to make you happy. All I need to know is what is it that will make you happy." Don't you think pretty much any of us would feel compelled to at least attempt at coming up with something for our spouse, like a list or at least a conversation?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She doesn't believe any such thing even if you did say it to her in those words, because from where she's sitting you're contradicting yourself. She knows full well you're not going to give her anything you ask for no matter what. You make that clear on this message board all the time. Going on a rant about how you'll do whatever it takes to make her happy is both pointless and incredibly dishonest, since part of what you've been working on is setting your boundaries, which precisely means you won't do things that cross your boundaries even if they're what it takes to make her happy.

If you want to talk about your wish to make her happy, that's great, but be more honest about how you put things. This grandstanding language is how you get yourself into ugly fights with her.

MOS -

Thanks for the replies (and the hit over the head). I am late and have to go, but I will respond tomorrow. Thanks for shoving me back into reality in a kind manner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I agree with your assessment here, which is why logic would actually say to follow her here. You see, if I just allowed conversations to end when she walks away because she thought things got too tough, then how would letting her continue to walk away and end conversations help? Yes, I think you are saying, let her walk away, but when she comes back, pick up the conversation. However, I really think this also serves to push her further away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Following her when she needs to take a break is still a bad idea.

I think the best strategy when she returns is to have a conversation about HAVING the conversation rather than picking up where you left off like nothing happened.

”Honey, I feel frustrated and angry when you walk away from me in the middle of a conversation about sex. I am very concerned that if you aren’t able to let me share my feelings with you about this matter that my frustration and resentment will continue to grow. I just don’t think that will be good for our marriage. Can we please find some way to talk about this subject?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Walked right into that one. What I meant was the word "give" was meant as a global or royal "give" which included my giver & taker. So you are saying move forward with trying to get some things back that make me happy. I am trying. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, now is the time to start being honest about your feelings and how you are being affected. But, this honesty must be about you and not about her. No selfish demands or disrespectful judgments. Just “I feel <x> when <y> happens. Can we talk about ways that y doesn’t need to happen?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know, I know. Our Mc is very experienced. She has been doing this for 30 years. I do not understand why or what she is doing right now, but based upon my situation, where I believe I will not ever get my W back into an MC again, this MC happens to be our last chance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know.. I know.. I’m not saying anything… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Could you explain this a bit further to help me understand. I think there is something I am really not getting here. I feel as though you all are encouraging me to continue as I am, but what I get in return is an enraged W who once a week shows me how disgusted she is to be physical with me. You can imagine that this does not take long to turn me into something I do not want to become. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand it’s hard for you to hear that. The alternative is to go back to doing what you’ve always done (sweep the elephant under the rug) or possibly to toss the baby out with the bath water (preemptively file for divorce).

Change will happen when she realizes it’s not going to go away and be ignored to maintain the status quo. What that change will be is the undecided part. You are worried that the change will not go in your favor; ie. that she’ll get so fed up with it that she decides she’ll leave a la ”I just can’t take it anymore! Now you’re threatening me!” . I won’t lie to you. It’s possible that she will decide to do that. But, I don’t think that she will because I think she’s just as wrapped up in this relationship as you are. I think she has lots of VERY compelling reasons to stay. However, just staying and not fixing the relationship has to be taken off the option list for change to happen. Until she truly believes that, she is likely to FIGHT the change. Expect it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have weird ways of having fun. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes I do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thats fine and all, but how will her emotions actually run their course if I only try to discuss it with her in MC once a week and she then pretends that that session never happened? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re not pretending it never happened. You’re not going to be stuck here, endlessly, Extremely Lost. If this goes on and on and on then it will be time to move to a higher risk strategy (Plan B). But this is only your first turn around the track, you’re barely out of the gate. Give this some time to work first. As time passes, you will need to become even MORE direct and MORE assertive. Not in a demanding or DJ way, but in a way that is all about you and what you are and are not willing to accept. You just can’t teleport to the end. This is a PROCESS. You’re at the beginning of this step. You see?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if the MC actually asks me to lay of talking about SF? Then what? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if it were me, I would refuse to agree. I’d say: “You know, I just don’t think I can be enthusiastic about that. I am building resentment and frustration about this at an alarming rate and I think we really need to at least start talking about it.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, I guess I am having trouble buying into that she is processing anything that has to do with the MC session. This is not a DJ, it is based upon repeated things from her actions and words from post other sessions. She forgets what was discussed in the previous session. Does not remember to do any homework, nor is pushed for it. How does her emotions run their course. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She might not be. Think of this like medication. When administering medication, the medical professional tries to administer the “minimum effective dose.” That means the least amount of medication that is effective. This is what we’re ramping up to. You might not have found the minimum effective message yet. But, rather than hauling off and swatting a fly with an anvil, you ramp up until you find that message.

Your messages should increase in intensity and concern over time because the SITUATION will increase in urgency over time. BUT, not all at once – make it a gradual process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess, I am going to remain trying to ask for SF respectfully and she is either going to decide to step up and deal with it or get tired of me and leave. Is this how it is to run its course? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, actually. Though I don’t suppose you expected that answer. The idea here is to make “staying in the status quo” not an option. She doesn’t ever have to commit to working on the marriage but then there won’t be a marriage. By the same token, you aren’t throwing down any gauntlets and forcing her to leave preemptively. You might have to walk out the door but, as I said to LFC, every inch.. every millimeter.. you should be asserting that you’re going that direction. This isn’t work on it.. work on it.. work on it.. give up and leave. This is work on it .. <things are really bad!>.. work on it .. <I’m truly unhappy with the situation!> .. work on it .. <I’m almost ready to give up!>..

You are maximizing your opportunities to save your marriage by giving her EVERY opportunity to change. It is possible that it will still fail. But, I think that is seriously discounting all that she has invested in the relationship, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know what it means to her to face her fears that all I want is sex. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, let’s discuss it. What it means is to figure out what would have to be the next step if all you DID want was just sex. What does that mean from her point of view?

Does that mean she has to leave you?
Does that mean you’re not the man she thought you were?
Does that mean you remind her of someone she doesn’t like?
Does that mean you’re like ‘all the rest’?
Does that mean she made a mistake?
Does that mean her mother/father/authority figure was right?
Does that mean she’ll never love you?
Does that mean she’ll never feel loved BY you?
Does that mean <what>?

What happens if it’s true? Do you get divorced? Is she consigned to a life of unwanted sexual activity? Are you more prone to cheat on her (in her mind)? Is she less secure because of it?

Do you see what I mean by exploring the what if’s? Let’s assume the worst case scenario is that she leaves. What’s different than the current scenario that if she doesn’t meet your needs at some point, YOU leave?

You see what I mean? All this time, the instant she brings up the idea that you might be ‘just in it for the sex’ you shut down that line of thinking immediately because it upsets you. Or, you negate the line of thinking. What might help is allowing her to EXPLORE that line of thinking and draw whatever conclusions about it she needs to draw. (No sneaky trying to manipulate her conclusions, either.)

Of course, she might not be ready and retreat to her “I don’t know” stance. Which is when you go back to your statements and assertions about how you AREN’T in it ‘just for the sex.’

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, things have been pretty easy for her to keep our M where it is right now. The thing that she cannot count on or know where it stands is my frustration level and anger. Eventually, if she remains on the same course, say for another year, I will have been fed up enough with things that I finally will feel like I can no longer wait for her to make a decision as to how she feels on these things any more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She can decide to stay in the same place. You can’t change that. All you can do is decide not to be stuck with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She married me two years ago. If I were causing her sooooo much pain and hurt and have been a person that makes her throw up at the thought of having sex with then why in the H*** did she marry me? I know most of the answers out there are going to be I don't know or she loved you. Either of these answers are not good enough. Because if she is using things from the two years prior to our M to establish why we are where we are, then it does not make sense she married me. If she married me because she loved me then she should have a desire to improve our M. All I have ever been trying to do is improve our M not just ask for sex. For 4.5 years this is what I have been trying to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I assume she wasn’t in withdrawal at that point. I know that you and her went through a lot of medical personnel trying to find her ‘lost desire’ which I imagine was both uncomfortable and scary for her. It might be that she’s convinced now it’s never coming back and that’s why she’s so resistant to talking about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Look, my W has known that I desire physical intimacy for quite a while. She also has know that not having physical intimacy is a huge issue. Therefore, I truly do feel that her being "unsure" is telling me something already. Don't you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, not really. Because it’s such a huge issue I’m sure she doesn’t want to say “No, never, there’s no hope.” until she’s sure there really is no hope. I think she’s worried about whether or not it will return just like you. From where she is, nothing is changing in that department. She might not know exactly what needs to happen FOR it to change. I try to always remember what she went through medically looking for her lost desire. It sounds like such a messy, tough situation for her to go through.

You know, EL, now that I’m thinking about it, do you think that might be a large part of her reluctance? A lot of those medical tests and procedures are very, very uncomfortable both in a physical (Ouch!) kind of way and in an emotional (humiliating) kind of way. Do you think it’s at least as possible that a lot of her reluctance stems from not wanting to go through all THAT again in search of her lost desire? I have to tell you that I’d be pretty resistant to signing up for a medical treadmill, too. It may not have as much to do with you as you think.

What will reignite her desire is the big grey area that no one here can possibly know. It’s a big grey area that SHE might not know. We’re all proceeding on the idea that it is the state of the marriage. But, I don’t suppose there is really any way to tell, is there?

Bah, sorry for the troubling thoughts. I hope you’re doing well today.

Mys

OK, I am not sure how to take last night.

I got home and my W had a party in the neighborhood to go to. In the short time that I got home and she had to leave, I mentioned that I was not going to be able to make the MC session on Tuesday, but would be willing to reschedule for any time on Thursday that would fit into her schedule. My W said, "Whats the point? Do you really feel we got anything out of the last time?" Obviously, this was severely dissapointing to me and I felt anger bubbling inside me. We have been over this a 1000 times and she has reacted this way a 1000 times. Is she suggesting we stop going and give up? Surely she has to understand that we spent long periods of time not going to an MC and we did not get any better from it. What is she thinking here?

So I took a deep breath and said, "Honey, I understand that you do not like going to MC. I felt that we actually did get a lot out of the last session. Before we started going to MC, both you and I did not have good enough communication skills to solve conflicts between us in a kind and caring manner that would leave us both happy and enthusiastic about the out come. In the last session, we discussed an area that we normally would hit a brick wall with. We were able to express some feelings and concerns as well as listen to each other. Hopefully from the MC we are learning better communication skills that do not cause us to feel attacked, threatened or demeaned when the other explains their perspective. The fact that we did not hit a stand still in MC and tried to talk through some things with out attacking each other is a big step forward and hopefully allows both of us to feel more comfortable in talking about our opinions with each other and even more confidence that each of us will negotiate resolution of these conflicts with the thoughts of the other in mind. We have conflicts from the past that we do need to resolve in order to have a happy M. This is going to be difficult at times, but with improved communication skills and an understanding that we truly do care for each other, I am sure we can over come these. Another example of change is that after that session, when I got home last night, you were anticipating my being moody and upset for the next three days. I surprised you by not being this way. Hopefully my new actions show you that you can state your opinions with out worrying about how I am going to react. You should be able to feel safe in our home and know that I love you. Honey, I do know working on our M is difficult for both of us and I know you are not happy with going to MC, but I am thankful that you are going because it is helping me. Thanks so much for going, I really do appreciate it." She said, "The problem is that I asked you a simple question and here we are 8 minutes later!" I said, "I did not know of a simple answer for your simple question, I am sorry." Then she went to her party. I was left feeling like crap.

Later that night she came home and I had noticed she did not have her W ring on. This does really bother me, so I thought I would say something. I opened with, "Honey, is there a reason you are not wearing your wedding ring?" My W said, "You know I took it off yesterday to paint something." I said, "I know, but that was yesterday." She said, "I'll put the ring on. This is just something else I do wrong and you scold me on." She got up and put it on. I said, "I do not want you to put the ring on because I had asked you to. I would feel better if you wore it because you wanted to." She said, "It does not matter that I do not have my ring on, I am still married to you!" I said, "I know you are still married, but to me the ring represents a symbol of our M and commitment to each other. It does bother me when you do not wear it. Maybe you could tell me what I could say so that I could get my point across without having you feel like I am scolding you." She said, "I have the ring on. Here you go, keeping it going!" I said, "Honey, I am not going to keep it going because I am going to say one more thing and then stop. All I am asking for is your help. I need to know how I should have said something about the ring so that it would not have come across to you as being a negative comment from me." My W said, "You just keep it going! You know, you could have just said, 'Honey, I noticed you had forgotten to put your ring back on after you painted, I just wanted to remind you,' but instead you had to creat this circular argument." I said, "Honey! You just did it! Thank you! You just gave me the information I needed to avoid having you feel scolded! From know on I will just say, hey I noticed you forgot to put your ring on and leave it at that. Thank you so much. This makes me feel so much better!" My W said, "Your welcome."

Later in the night my W needed something from the store. I went and got it for her. She kept saying half heartedly, "You don't have to go." Of Course this was after I was ready to go anyway. So I went and did her a favor. When I got back I she said "Thanks." I said, "No problem. I really like doing things for you when I can, especially these small things." She said, "Well I really appreciate that you did it, thanks."

So I think I managed to turn keep the night on track, yet I still have these major lingering doubts about our getting better. Obviously, I notice the differences in how I am reacting to my W and how it effects things, but I am still concerned about her negative comments regarding going to MC and working on our M. I went through this long winded explanation because I wanted to give all of you as much information so you could help me to diagnose her state of mind and where she might be coming from. I still can't believe she is asking why we are still going to MC.

Thanks,

EL

Uh...

Why would you be surprised she asked that? MC is uncomfortable for her right now. Your response was very nicely done though.

With the question about her wedding ring -- you have simply got to stop telling her what you want her to feel. That's what got things ugly, you telling her you want her to want what you want her to want.

Also, asking her "why" she doesn't have her ring on is loaded -- you tend to phrase these sorts of things in very loaded ways. What she suggested, simply reminding her she forgot to put it on, is much better.

You both already know that it's important to you that she wears the ring. You both already know that she takes it off at times to protect it, and sometimes she forgets to put it on. You both already know she doesn't feel the same way about wearing it that you feel about her wearing it. Your wife is feeling pummeled over things like this being rehashed continually and your unreasonable pressuring that she think and feel as you want her to think and feel are driving her stark raving bonkers. Quit it already.

MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. You keep saying you don't know for sure what your wife's ENs are. I understand you are trying to meet them as best you understand them, but there doesn't seem to be reason to assume you are fully meeting all her ENs. It sounds like there is pleny more to explore on how you can do that. I know the first thing you'll say is, "yeah but I wish she'd just give me a list". That's fine that you wish that. That's not the point I'm making right now though -- the point is that you probably aren't meeting all her ENs, so this bitter ranting about "I'm meeting all her ENs and she's not meeting mine" serves no purpose except to work yourself up against your wife. It's unhealthy and you need to stop it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I agree with you. Sometimes I cannot help speaking out of frustration. I am going through a process where I need to seperate out what has been built in my mind from frustration and what is reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. Meeting ENs is not enough when you're LBing. I know you've been working hard on this, and I definitely think you've made real progress, but I also think you're a long way from eliminating them. This is a fundamental MB principle -- so long as the LBs go on, you can't expect the Love Bank to stop draining.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I am in agreement with this point. Read what I wrote about last night and tell me if you think this was better on my part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoa, huge DJ there. How your question sounds and feels to her is valid. Flinging insults like "close-minded" is incredibly disrespectful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here, sorry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah, but that's not the question you asked. Taking what response you did get to a different question and applying it as an answer to this question is DJing again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine, I should assume nothing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From where I'm sitting this is a pretty strange-sounding rant for you to be on at this point in time. Of the three possibilities you put to her, it sounds pretty clear that the last one (no sex, ever) is the one that's not on the table, because she would have been able to say that. All the hysteria and emotional conflict she's exhibiting only make sense to me in context of she knows she's going to have sex with you, and wants you both to be happy with it, but is afraid the two of you won't work out a way where you're both happy and satisfied.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I hope you are right. I did not get that from what happened. I did not see it as "no sex ever" was off the table.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would hope she'd come straight back with "he could try quitting the LBs". And I'd be cheering if she did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that would make our lives a lot easier. But she does not have the tools (because she choose not to let the MB information in). So she is probably not able to figure out how to lable what is bothering her. Maybe this is it. Obviously she still LBs and DJs all over the place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She doesn't believe any such thing even if you did say it to her in those words, because from where she's sitting you're contradicting yourself. She knows full well you're not going to give her anything you ask for no matter what. You make that clear on this message board all the time. Going on a rant about how you'll do whatever it takes to make her happy is both pointless and incredibly dishonest, since part of what you've been working on is setting your boundaries, which precisely means you won't do things that cross your boundaries even if they're what it takes to make her happy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine, fair point. I will be more careful with my exact wording. However, I am pretty much willing to do almost anything to make her happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want to talk about your wish to make her happy, that's great, but be more honest about how you put things. This grandstanding language is how you get yourself into ugly fights with her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. Thanks.

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Surely she has to understand that we spent long periods of time not going to an MC and we did not get any better from it. What is she thinking here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably that things had been getting better for a while but at the last session conflict reared it’s ugly head. It’s not unreasonable for her to feel that conflict is a serious step backwards because that’s how most people would probably react. It’s sometimes hard to reconcile that you have to go through conflict to get where you want to go. If there was an easier way, people would flock to it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said, "The problem is that I asked you a simple question and here we are 8 minutes later!" I said, "I did not know of a simple answer for your simple question, I am sorry." Then she went to her party. I was left feeling like crap. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. I see both of your points. I think that you might have been able to answer that with a “Why yes, honey, I did get a lot out of the session and I’m looking forward to the next one.” instead of your rather lengthy reply. It might be worthwhile to listen to her complaint “I asked you a simple question.” for next time. I can’t fault your reply: “I did not know a simple answer to your simple question, I’m sorry” , though. Your response was great. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It might be helpful if you stop trying to educate her so much. There were a lot of ‘we’s’ in that explanation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I think I managed to turn keep the night on track, yet I still have these major lingering doubts about our getting better. Obviously, I notice the differences in how I am reacting to my W and how it effects things, but I am still concerned about her negative comments regarding going to MC and working on our M. I went through this long winded explanation because I wanted to give all of you as much information so you could help me to diagnose her state of mind and where she might be coming from. I still can't believe she is asking why we are still going to MC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You did do a very nice job. And, things are getting better. Now, you are able to recover and turn towards solution oriented discussion when you see a discussion careening out of control (the ring discussion). You recovered that nicely by asking her what she wanted you to say to remind her about the ring. It was also nice that you thanked her for telling you and made clear your intent to use that phrasing in the future.

You can tell you’re getting better because you’re able to keep the night on track. Right? Little steps… little steps..

Mys

Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Following her when she needs to take a break is still a bad idea.

I think the best strategy when she returns is to have a conversation about HAVING the conversation rather than picking up where you left off like nothing happened.

”Honey, I feel frustrated and angry when you walk away from me in the middle of a conversation about sex. I am very concerned that if you aren’t able to let me share my feelings with you about this matter that my frustration and resentment will continue to grow. I just don’t think that will be good for our marriage. Can we please find some way to talk about this subject?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, but usually if she returns and I mention anything that closely resembles anything to do with the conversation that she walked away from, she most likely responds with a "There you go again! You keep it going!" Now hopefully, with the tack I took last night and was successful at not having a circular argument and it getting out of control, my W will start to gain confidence that the spiraling is not likely to happen and that I am trying to make valid points in a respectful manner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, now is the time to start being honest about your feelings and how you are being affected. But, this honesty must be about you and not about her. No selfish demands or disrespectful judgments. Just “I feel <x> when <y> happens. Can we talk about ways that y doesn’t need to happen?”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get what your saying. I will try this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand it’s hard for you to hear that. The alternative is to go back to doing what you’ve always done (sweep the elephant under the rug) or possibly to toss the baby out with the bath water (preemptively file for divorce).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously, I want to avoid these two outcomes if at all possible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Change will happen when she realizes it’s not going to go away and be ignored to maintain the status quo. What that change will be is the undecided part. You are worried that the change will not go in your favor; ie. that she’ll get so fed up with it that she decides she’ll leave a la ”I just can’t take it anymore! Now you’re threatening me!” . I won’t lie to you. It’s possible that she will decide to do that. But, I don’t think that she will because I think she’s just as wrapped up in this relationship as you are. I think she has lots of VERY compelling reasons to stay. However, just staying and not fixing the relationship has to be taken off the option list for change to happen. Until she truly believes that, she is likely to FIGHT the change. Expect it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but my W is very smart. If leaving the M is not an option for her, then she may think she has two options: 1) deal with things; 2) go back into withdrawl because she knows that when she is in withdrawl I would have to drop back into trying to meet her ENs while putting mine aside in hopes to entice her out of withdrawl again. You see, even though I may have been LBing and DJing, I did not let my needs drop in the past and this is probably what put her into withdrawl. So what is going to stop her from making this "safe" choice in the future? How do I help her understand that my staying in this M and not fixing it is not an option, without it coming across to her as a threat? You see, anything I say no matter how LB or DJ free or respectful it actually is, is going to sound like a threat to her. During our session the MC picked up that I was trying to say that I cannot remain in the M if we do not improve things. In fact the MC stopped us from talking and said, "You were saying that you cannot go on with things as they are or......?" This is when my W said, "I can't do this anymore" and she threw my list and started to cry. This is when my W started saying the things about how I have caused her so much hurt and pain over 4 years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You’re not pretending it never happened. You’re not going to be stuck here, endlessly, Extremely Lost. If this goes on and on and on then it will be time to move to a higher risk strategy (Plan B). But this is only your first turn around the track, you’re barely out of the gate. Give this some time to work first. As time passes, you will need to become even MORE direct and MORE assertive. Not in a demanding or DJ way, but in a way that is all about you and what you are and are not willing to accept. You just can’t teleport to the end. This is a PROCESS. You’re at the beginning of this step. You see?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear what you are saying but, it is hard for me to see myself as taking "first steps" as I do feel I have been trying to improve things for 4.5 years (all though with LBs and DJs).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, if it were me, I would refuse to agree. I’d say: “You know, I just don’t think I can be enthusiastic about that. I am building resentment and frustration about this at an alarming rate and I think we really need to at least start talking about it.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can juts hear my W now, "Well that just proves this was only all about sex for you!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She might not be. Think of this like medication. When administering medication, the medical professional tries to administer the “minimum effective dose.” That means the least amount of medication that is effective. This is what we’re ramping up to. You might not have found the minimum effective message yet. But, rather than hauling off and swatting a fly with an anvil, you ramp up until you find that message.

Your messages should increase in intensity and concern over time because the SITUATION will increase in urgency over time. BUT, not all at once – make it a gradual process.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats a very interesting way of looking at this whole thing. Thanks. Unfortunately, how do I not confuse "ramp up intensity" with pestering or pressuring her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, actually. Though I don’t suppose you expected that answer. The idea here is to make “staying in the status quo” not an option. She doesn’t ever have to commit to working on the marriage but then there won’t be a marriage. By the same token, you aren’t throwing down any gauntlets and forcing her to leave preemptively. You might have to walk out the door but, as I said to LFC, every inch.. every millimeter.. you should be asserting that you’re going that direction. This isn’t work on it.. work on it.. work on it.. give up and leave. This is work on it .. <things are really bad!>.. work on it .. <I’m truly unhappy with the situation!> .. work on it .. <I’m almost ready to give up!>..

You are maximizing your opportunities to save your marriage by giving her EVERY opportunity to change. It is possible that it will still fail. But, I think that is seriously discounting all that she has invested in the relationship, too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you are saying here as well, but I am still confused as to "asserting that I am going towards the direction of the door every inch/millimeter" and not coming across as threatening my W or pushing or pressuring her. I know you might say, because you will do it in a respectful way, but I know she is most likely not capable of taking even a very respectful request as not a threat. I also believe because of how she will percieve any of this, she will ultimately prepare herself for failure and it will more then likely become reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, let’s discuss it. What it means is to figure out what would have to be the next step if all you DID want was just sex. What does that mean from her point of view?

Does that mean she has to leave you?
Does that mean you’re not the man she thought you were?
Does that mean you remind her of someone she doesn’t like?
Does that mean you’re like ‘all the rest’?
Does that mean she made a mistake?
Does that mean her mother/father/authority figure was right?
Does that mean she’ll never love you?
Does that mean she’ll never feel loved BY you?
Does that mean <what>?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that in my W's POV if all I wanted from her was just sex, then I am treating her as an object. She would see me as this controling, insanely jealous individual that only cares about a physical release. This would most likely make her feel cheap, unloved, trashy, a slut, a piece of property and used. However, in my mind, none of this could be true or A) I would not still be here; B) I would have had an affair many times over already. Why can't she use these facts to subdue her concerns?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What happens if it’s true? Do you get divorced? Is she consigned to a life of unwanted sexual activity? Are you more prone to cheat on her (in her mind)? Is she less secure because of it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, this is the crazy part of this whole puzzle. My W constantly says that she trusts me 100% with knowning that I will never cheat on her. I am sure she believes this in her heart. She almost goes out of her way to to show me this. So I believe her. What I do not understand is that if she knows she is not meeting my biggest EN and is in fact puts me down for having SF as my biggest EN, how can she feel so secure that I would not look elsewhere for this EN to be met. I am not even sure that I won't. Is this her actually taking me for granted?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see what I mean by exploring the what if’s? Let’s assume the worst case scenario is that she leaves. What’s different than the current scenario that if she doesn’t meet your needs at some point, YOU leave? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing, other than my having the very positive outlook that someday our M will be OK. This is only human.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see what I mean? All this time, the instant she brings up the idea that you might be ‘just in it for the sex’ you shut down that line of thinking immediately because it upsets you. Or, you negate the line of thinking. What might help is allowing her to EXPLORE that line of thinking and draw whatever conclusions about it she needs to draw. (No sneaky trying to manipulate her conclusions, either.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an interesting idea. I guess I would feel more comfortable working on a how to kick start this discussion. I know she will say the obvious again, I just am unsure on how to turn it around towards discussing her actual fears. Maybe after she says the "we would be fine if you were just getting sex all the time," I say, "Honey, I have expressed many times that I am not only interested in sex, but I hear your continual concerns that this is actually true. Therefore, I think it is important that we talk about what your fears are about your spouse only liking sex. What do you think?" What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course, she might not be ready and retreat to her “I don’t know” stance. Which is when you go back to your statements and assertions about how you AREN’T in it ‘just for the sex.’
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She can decide to stay in the same place. You can’t change that. All you can do is decide not to be stuck with her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I assume she wasn’t in withdrawal at that point. I know that you and her went through a lot of medical personnel trying to find her ‘lost desire’ which I imagine was both uncomfortable and scary for her. It might be that she’s convinced now it’s never coming back and that’s why she’s so resistant to talking about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually she was in withdrawl. She also was suffering from post pardem depression and on anti-depressants. You could be right. She used to mention that she wished she knew why she did not have desire. She used to say that it was not because of me. She used to say no one can find any answers and I do not have any for you. Therefore, I was always left with nothing I could do but just put up with it. I could not do this anymore and found MB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, not really. Because it’s such a huge issue I’m sure she doesn’t want to say “No, never, there’s no hope.” until she’s sure there really is no hope. I think she’s worried about whether or not it will return just like you. From where she is, nothing is changing in that department. She might not know exactly what needs to happen FOR it to change. I try to always remember what she went through medically looking for her lost desire. It sounds like such a messy, tough situation for her to go through.

You know, EL, now that I’m thinking about it, do you think that might be a large part of her reluctance? A lot of those medical tests and procedures are very, very uncomfortable both in a physical (Ouch!) kind of way and in an emotional (humiliating) kind of way. Do you think it’s at least as possible that a lot of her reluctance stems from not wanting to go through all THAT again in search of her lost desire? I have to tell you that I’d be pretty resistant to signing up for a medical treadmill, too. It may not have as much to do with you as you think.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could be right here. She could be not wanting to face this because of all that she has already been through. She is a tough person, why can't she say this? Do you think she has gotten to a point that she does not even know now that this could be causing some of her issues.

Now that I think of it, it is strange that she would constantly say that it has nothing to do with me and now in her mind it has everything to do with me. Don't you find this to be as dramatic as I do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What will reignite her desire is the big grey area that no one here can possibly know. It’s a big grey area that SHE might not know. We’re all proceeding on the idea that it is the state of the marriage. But, I don’t suppose there is really any way to tell, is there?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, there is no way to tell. So what am I left to do? Do I carry on down the path I already am because it will improve our M in all the other areas? I am at a point where I do not know what to do about her lack of desire anymore and I know she had given up in actively caring about fixing it. I have to give her credit that she did really try to figure out why she had no desire. Some of this I was with her for and some of the searching she actually did on her own out of her own interest for improving things. In the end, I am sure, like most things, it is not one thing that anyone could put their finger on. I am sure it has been a combination of things. Let me give you a guess at how this could have all happened:

My W became pregnant and started feeling unsure about everything because she was a very responsible person. She was on the "pill." She was working two jobs and paying her bills and going somewhere. She was a very independent woman. Then she meets this guy from out of state and gets pregnant. Her World gets turned upside down. Who she thought were friends turn on her and view her in a different and ugly light because she got pregnant out of wedlock. This guy comforts her through all of this and she decides to move in with him to another state away from her family and friends. This guy has taken a new job and has to work long hours and travel. She is in a new place without any friends or family and this guy being gone some of the time. She has to take care of her self, but finds some times to be more difficult than she thought because of emotional changes she was not expecting due to being pregnant. She has the baby and has a traumatic delivery. She decides to breast feed her baby because it will be the healthier thing to do. (Breast feeding clinically is proven to lower SF desire in women). She tries to have sex a couple of times and fears that it will feel different for this guy. She also fears about getting pregnant again. She now feels over whelmed with a baby that wakes up and demands to be fed every 1.5 hours. This goes on for a year and she finds herself being depressed. Over the next several years she tries to look into why she no longer desires physical intimacy with this guy. She goes through several medical directions as well as psychological routes and no one can offer her any real answers that work. Meanwhile this guy becomes increasing aggitated with being told, "I am not interested and I do not know why, but its not you." They get married two years after their S was born and things continued on the same path where they both looked for answers as to why she did not have any desire. They built a house and bought into a business and still no answers. Finally, after years of no answers, she decides it is not important any more and does not really matter. I am left feeling wronged and forgotten. We go through a year of stagnation until I cannot take it anymore. I find MB this past April.

What do you think?

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, but usually if she returns and I mention anything that closely resembles anything to do with the conversation that she walked away from, she most likely responds with a "There you go again! You keep it going!" Now hopefully, with the tack I took last night and was successful at not having a circular argument and it getting out of control, my W will start to gain confidence that the spiraling is not likely to happen and that I am trying to make valid points in a respectful manner. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You keep it about you. You use the formula “I feel hurt/angry/upset/frustrated/dismissed when you leave in the middle of a conversation. I would really like to find some way to have this discussion with you. Can we do that?”

You say two (2) sentences about how you feel and 1 sentence about what you want. Then you either use a separate sentence to ask a question or you incorporate it into one sentence (Can we find some way to have this discussion, please?).

That’s it! You don’t launch into a long, involved explanation. You don’t act defensively. You don’t advance any theories about what she should do, you should do, ‘we’ should do, or how things should be. You keep it simple and you keep it small. If she says “No!” then you get another two (2) sentences about how you feel about that and you leave it alone. “I feel very concerned/disheartened/frightened for our marriage/angry when I hear you say “no” to this discussion. I’m really worried that this might cause our marriage to fail.”

Then you drop it for a day or two then you bring it up again. “Honey, it’s been a couple of days, can we please talk about our sex life (sexual intimacy.. er.. whatever Mineownself suggested, I liked her phrasing)?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If leaving the M is not an option for her, then she may think she has two options: 1) deal with things; 2) go back into withdrawl because she knows that when she is in withdrawl I would have to drop back into trying to meet her ENs while putting mine aside in hopes to entice her out of withdrawl again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, this isn’t about chasing her all over withdrawal. You INITIALLY entice her out of withdrawal. Assuming you haven’t gone on a LB fest, you aren’t going to substantially change your behavior if she retreats. You’re still going to try to meet her needs, eliminate LB’s, and assert your needs.

I need you to EXPECT her to go back into withdrawal as you assert your needs and conflict starts to bubble up. It’s normal, it’s natural, and it’s working as intended. She’d be very abnormal if she didn’t. YOU keep up your good behavior and STILL assert your needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do I help her understand that my staying in this M and not fixing it is not an option, without it coming across to her as a threat? You see, anything I say no matter how LB or DJ free or respectful it actually is, is going to sound like a threat to her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to let her feel however she needs to feel about what you say – including that it’s a threat. As long as you’re not issuing ultimatums, selfish demands, or disrespectful judgments, keep asserting your needs. ”I’m not happy. I’d like things to change. This is what I need to be happy. I’d like to find some way that we can both be enthusiastic about those things. I feel frustrated when we can’t talk about it. I feel angry when you walk away in conversation. I feel sad and depressed about the state of our marriage. Things are not OK with me.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hear what you are saying but, it is hard for me to see myself as taking "first steps" as I do feel I have been trying to improve things for 4.5 years (all though with LBs and DJs). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, this is the first step in asserting your needs after a period of trying to meet your wife’s needs (as best you can) and eliminating LB’s.

My point was, you have a LOT more asserting to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can juts hear my W now, "Well that just proves this was only all about sex for you!" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, expect that response. Understand it for what it is designed to do – deflect you away from asserting your needs.

Extremely Lost, you’re trying to get back into CONFLICT from withdrawal. You can’t handle conflict while you’re trying to avoid it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thats a very interesting way of looking at this whole thing. Thanks. Unfortunately, how do I not confuse "ramp up intensity" with pestering or pressuring her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The main difference is going to reside in message delivery. The best thing you can do is to make your messages as short and direct as possible. Try to use two (2) sentences instead of a long winded explanation of how you feel. It’s likely she KNOWS how you feel. Now, if she asks you to explain, feel free to let loose. But, what gets most irritating and pressuring is hearing the same long explanation each time when nothing’s changed. Instead, work to shorten your statements to feelings statements. What will change the intensity will be the frequency of the messages and potentially the feeling words that you use. As time passes, I imagine those feeling words might change to reflect your feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe that in my W's POV if all I wanted from her was just sex, then I am treating her as an object. She would see me as this controling, insanely jealous individual that only cares about a physical release. This would most likely make her feel cheap, unloved, trashy, a slut, a piece of property and used. However, in my mind, none of this could be true or A) I would not still be here; B) I would have had an affair many times over already. Why can't she use these facts to subdue her concerns? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You might be right about how she feels. Sometimes people need to talk through their strong emotional reactions before they can move past them. It’s like if your child has a nightmare about a monster in the closet. He might need to look into the empty closet BEFORE he’s able to believe that he’s not in danger.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, this is the crazy part of this whole puzzle. My W constantly says that she trusts me 100% with knowning that I will never cheat on her. I am sure she believes this in her heart. She almost goes out of her way to to show me this. So I believe her. What I do not understand is that if she knows she is not meeting my biggest EN and is in fact puts me down for having SF as my biggest EN, how can she feel so secure that I would not look elsewhere for this EN to be met. I am not even sure that I won't. Is this her actually taking me for granted? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Er.. I was just tossing out possibilities. If your wife’s statements contrast sharply with some of them, then discard them. My guess is that it’s more a matter of removing it from the list than being taken for granted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is an interesting idea. I guess I would feel more comfortable working on a how to kick start this discussion. I know she will say the obvious again, I just am unsure on how to turn it around towards discussing her actual fears. Maybe after she says the "we would be fine if you were just getting sex all the time," I say, "Honey, I have expressed many times that I am not only interested in sex, but I hear your continual concerns that this is actually true. Therefore, I think it is important that we talk about what your fears are about your spouse only liking sex. What do you think?" What do you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah! You’re getting it. I really like that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually she was in withdrawl. She also was suffering from post pardem depression and on anti-depressants. You could be right. She used to mention that she wished she knew why she did not have desire. She used to say that it was not because of me. She used to say no one can find any answers and I do not have any for you. Therefore, I was always left with nothing I could do but just put up with it. I could not do this anymore and found MB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh! Very interesting. So, considering all the problems, why did you choose to get married at that time? Why didn’t you wait to see if they’d resolve?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You could be right here. She could be not wanting to face this because of all that she has already been through. She is a tough person, why can't she say this? Do you think she has gotten to a point that she does not even know now that this could be causing some of her issues. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, again, it’s just speculation. It might not even be true. *shrugs* It just made me think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now that I think of it, it is strange that she would constantly say that it has nothing to do with me and now in her mind it has everything to do with me. Don't you find this to be as dramatic as I do? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do find that a dramatic change. When exactly did that happen? April? Or, a year ago?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right, there is no way to tell. So what am I left to do? Do I carry on down the path I already am because it will improve our M in all the other areas? I am at a point where I do not know what to do about her lack of desire anymore and I know she had given up in actively caring about fixing it. I have to give her credit that she did really try to figure out why she had no desire. Some of this I was with her for and some of the searching she actually did on her own out of her own interest for improving things. In the end, I am sure, like most things, it is not one thing that anyone could put their finger on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if it was me, I’d continue down this road until I got to the end to see what was there. Assuming you get the lines of communication open, I think there is going to have to be a lot of acknowledgement on your part for the work that she did to find her desire.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W became pregnant and started feeling unsure about everything because she was a very responsible person.
<snip>
They built a house and bought into a business and still no answers. Finally, after years of no answers, she decides it is not important any more and does not really matter. I am left feeling wronged and forgotten. We go through a year of stagnation until I cannot take it anymore. I find MB this past April. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, that’s a whole lot. You guys have compressed a lot into 4.5 years, haven’t you?

Well, for what it’s worth, I believe that female desire is very different than male desire. I understand why she gave up. Four years or 3 years or 3.5 years of trying and searching and not finding anything would be enough to discourage anyone. Shucks, you’ve been here for 6 months and we’ve had to flog you to keep your nose to the grindstone! (*playful nudge* I know, I know, you were looking all that time, too. You get credit for that, don’t worry)

The more I think about this issue, the more I’m convinced this is a good path for you to try. First, you’ve sparked her interest in the idea that you CAN change to become more supportive and LB less. It IS about you, in the sense that in order to face this issue, she needs to work with you as a supportive partner. I’m not saying you didn’t try to be supportive before, I’m just saying that you might not have known how to TRULY support her. What needs to happen is the same goal you’ve been trying for all along – to entice her into a partnership approach in your marriage and POJA. I still hold out a fair amount of hope for that to happen.. (not today or next month.. but I think you’ll make it). Of course, what I don’t know is, once you get into partnership, how easy the desire issue will be to solve. I don’t think that ‘making a partnership’ is going to be what mends it, you know? Oh, it will HELP, but it’s not going to be a magic bullet.

And, by the way, even if you haven’t noticed big reactive changes over the last few weeks, I’ve seen BIG changes in the way you handle things. You’re picking up speed here. You still hit a few bumps along the way, but they aren’t sending you down for the count like they used to.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Mys

Hey Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You keep it about you. You use the formula “I feel hurt/angry/upset/frustrated/dismissed when you leave in the middle of a conversation. I would really like to find some way to have this discussion with you. Can we do that?”

You say two (2) sentences about how you feel and 1 sentence about what you want. Then you either use a separate sentence to ask a question or you incorporate it into one sentence (Can we find some way to have this discussion, please?).

That’s it! You don’t launch into a long, involved explanation. You don’t act defensively. You don’t advance any theories about what she should do, you should do, ‘we’ should do, or how things should be. You keep it simple and you keep it small. If she says “No!” then you get another two (2) sentences about how you feel about that and you leave it alone. “I feel very concerned/disheartened/frightened for our marriage/angry when I hear you say “no” to this discussion. I’m really worried that this might cause our marriage to fail.”

Then you drop it for a day or two then you bring it up again. “Honey, it’s been a couple of days, can we please talk about our sex life (sexual intimacy.. er.. whatever Mineownself suggested, I liked her phrasing)?”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see. I stay consistent and keep it respectful. If she chooses to inturpret it poorly, I cannot help that. However, all I can do is be radically honest about my feelings and above all remain consistent. With regards to my going into long discussions with her, I sometimes cannot help it because based upon some of the things she says at a particular time, it makes me feel as though she totally is not getting things, so I try to offer her the background to help in her understanding. Some times I need things repeated before I get it through my thick skull. I was just providing an opportunity for her in the same manner. However, I guess I could start assuming that if she does not get it by now, any amount of my explaining it is not going to make a difference right now. Therefore, I should keep it short and sweet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, this isn’t about chasing her all over withdrawal. You INITIALLY entice her out of withdrawal. Assuming you haven’t gone on a LB fest, you aren’t going to substantially change your behavior if she retreats. You’re still going to try to meet her needs, eliminate LB’s, and assert your needs.

I need you to EXPECT her to go back into withdrawal as you assert your needs and conflict starts to bubble up. It’s normal, it’s natural, and it’s working as intended. She’d be very abnormal if she didn’t. YOU keep up your good behavior and STILL assert your needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what you are saying is that I have now passed into a new phase, where I will no longer neglect my own ENs even if it is to the ultimate ending of my M. If she decides to float back into deep withdrawl, I should not be trying to entice her through laying off her meeting my needs anymore. If a year goes by and she is still in this same withdrawl, what do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to let her feel however she needs to feel about what you say – including that it’s a threat. As long as you’re not issuing ultimatums, selfish demands, or disrespectful judgments, keep asserting your needs. ”I’m not happy. I’d like things to change. This is what I need to be happy. I’d like to find some way that we can both be enthusiastic about those things. I feel frustrated when we can’t talk about it. I feel angry when you walk away in conversation. I feel sad and depressed about the state of our marriage. Things are not OK with me.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I've got to commit some of these exact sentences to memory. Now, do I still hold off and only try to get into these discussions at MC still, right? or, should I be trying to discuss things with my W at home. For example, is it appropriate for me to ask for SF over the weekend, or not? You see, I am still trying to find my feet as I go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sorry, this is the first step in asserting your needs after a period of trying to meet your wife’s needs (as best you can) and eliminating LB’s.

My point was, you have a LOT more asserting to do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what you mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, expect that response. Understand it for what it is designed to do – deflect you away from asserting your needs.

Extremely Lost, you’re trying to get back into CONFLICT from withdrawal. You can’t handle conflict while you’re trying to avoid it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good Point!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The main difference is going to reside in message delivery. The best thing you can do is to make your messages as short and direct as possible. Try to use two (2) sentences instead of a long winded explanation of how you feel. It’s likely she KNOWS how you feel. Now, if she asks you to explain, feel free to let loose. But, what gets most irritating and pressuring is hearing the same long explanation each time when nothing’s changed. Instead, work to shorten your statements to feelings statements. What will change the intensity will be the frequency of the messages and potentially the feeling words that you use. As time passes, I imagine those feeling words might change to reflect your feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, keep it short and sweet. I would take her asking for clarification as her becoming more interested in what I have to say. So, I will naturally assume this to be a positive.

My words changing to reflect my feelings as time passes and no change on her end is evident - You bet!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You might be right about how she feels. Sometimes people need to talk through their strong emotional reactions before they can move past them. It’s like if your child has a nightmare about a monster in the closet. He might need to look into the empty closet BEFORE he’s able to believe that he’s not in danger.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, maybe my W needs to talk through what she is afraid of, or why it may bother her that her H is so interested in sex.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Heh. Er.. I was just tossing out possibilities. If your wife’s statements contrast sharply with some of them, then discard them. My guess is that it’s more a matter of removing it from the list than being taken for granted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you may have missed what I was getting at here. I was asking for your opinion about my W's actions and statements. I do not understand them. I would think that it is a real easy thing to understand that you are risking your M by not meeting your H's needs. Maybe you could reread this paragraph and offer me some thoughts? I would appreciate it. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh! Very interesting. So, considering all the problems, why did you choose to get married at that time? Why didn’t you wait to see if they’d resolve?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Prior to my W giving birth, she had went through the traumatic experience of finding out who her real friends were during an emotionally pregnant state. After she gave birth and in the hospital room, we had a visitor who was "conducting a survey." They started off with saying that they wanted to survey each of us individually and we both said, "We just had a baby! We are staying in the room together with our baby. If you want a survey filled out, then we will do it here and now." So they start with me and ask a number of questions regarding little things. Then they get into sex questions and the kind of job I have and other personal questions, like do I love her and am I happy about having a child. Kind of odd, but not too odd yet. Then they start in with my W (we were not married yet) and ask some standard questions and then get to the questions of if I beat her, do I mistreat her, does she know information on my family in case she could not find me, does she think I will stay with her, does she think I will make a good father, would I take care of her financially if I left her. We got sooooooooo upset that we kicked them out of the room. The hospital staff was very apologetic as it was an independent survey and they did not know what they were asking. When it came time to give our son a name, my W listed our S with my last name. This was a huge step forward in the trust department for me because we were not married yet. Later on we would find out that this would cause my W some difficulties because she would always get questioned as to who she was with respect to our S because she did not have the same last name. At this same time my W was really avidly looking for a solution to her lack of desire. She still had some desire (at least to try and fix what she percieved to be a problem still). Therefore, at this time, I knew that I loved her and always would. I proposed to her for many different reasons. Number one because I love her. The others made our lives better. I do not regret Ming her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I do find that a dramatic change. When exactly did that happen? April? Or, a year ago?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This started happening after April, when I started to take the tact that I could see how I might have been causing some issues. I had no other answers and no where to really turn. I found MB and started to understand how my actions were not helping our situation. It was around this time she began to shove all the "blame" from her to me and started me jumping through a million hoops to "prove" things to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, if it was me, I’d continue down this road until I got to the end to see what was there. Assuming you get the lines of communication open, I think there is going to have to be a lot of acknowledgement on your part for the work that she did to find her desire.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No doubt. It could not have been easy on her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow, that’s a whole lot. You guys have compressed a lot into 4.5 years, haven’t you?

Well, for what it’s worth, I believe that female desire is very different than male desire. I understand why she gave up. Four years or 3 years or 3.5 years of trying and searching and not finding anything would be enough to discourage anyone. Shucks, you’ve been here for 6 months and we’ve had to flog you to keep your nose to the grindstone! (*playful nudge* I know, I know, you were looking all that time, too. You get credit for that, don’t worry)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, we used to joke how we survived changing jobs, moving, having a baby and building a house before we were married, therefore, since these are the things that are mostly blamed for breaking up marriages, we certainly could accomplish anything together as a team. Some where, some how, we lost that "team."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The more I think about this issue, the more I’m convinced this is a good path for you to try. First, you’ve sparked her interest in the idea that you CAN change to become more supportive and LB less. It IS about you, in the sense that in order to face this issue, she needs to work with you as a supportive partner. I’m not saying you didn’t try to be supportive before, I’m just saying that you might not have known how to TRULY support her. What needs to happen is the same goal you’ve been trying for all along – to entice her into a partnership approach in your marriage and POJA. I still hold out a fair amount of hope for that to happen.. (not today or next month.. but I think you’ll make it). Of course, what I don’t know is, once you get into partnership, how easy the desire issue will be to solve. I don’t think that ‘making a partnership’ is going to be what mends it, you know? Oh, it will HELP, but it’s not going to be a magic bullet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, we need to become stronger partners again. That was when I was the happiest in my entire life!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, by the way, even if you haven’t noticed big reactive changes over the last few weeks, I’ve seen BIG changes in the way you handle things. You’re picking up speed here. You still hit a few bumps along the way, but they aren’t sending you down for the count like they used to.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Mys. Your support really helps to keep me going. I really appreciate it. You are a wonderful person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Take Care,

EL

Hiya EL,

Something you said a couple of posts back was really disturbing to me. You talked about all your wife gave up to be with you and stay at home to raise your son.

Then you talked about how you had "bought her" two cars and some other things.

If it were me I would find this an unbearable situation and I'd be thinking divorce. There is no way I would stand for being treated as an unpaid servant, and I'm pretty sure that's how your wife feels some of the time. She sacrificed a great deal for building the family you have, and finds herself relegated to a position where if she needs a car, you "buy it for her". I'd sure as hell walk.

If your marriage is a partnership and the work you both do is valued equally, then you "buying her a car" would make no sense, since you both contribute equally and both share equally in the results of your contributions.

But the phrasing you choose relagates her to being some kind of second class citizen. This is one of those times I truly marvel at your wife's patience and tolerance, because I'd be long gone.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see. I stay consistent and keep it respectful. If she chooses to inturpret it poorly, I cannot help that. However, all I can do is be radically honest about my feelings and above all remain consistent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is it exactly. As long as you’re using those “I feel <x> when <y>” statements and not demanding or tossing out DJ’s your job is to be honest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> With regards to my going into long discussions with her, I sometimes cannot help it because based upon some of the things she says at a particular time, it makes me feel as though she totally is not getting things, so I try to offer her the background to help in her understanding. Some times I need things repeated before I get it through my thick skull. I was just providing an opportunity for her in the same manner. However, I guess I could start assuming that if she does not get it by now, any amount of my explaining it is not going to make a difference right now. Therefore, I should keep it short and sweet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you got it! See, you barely need me here anymore. (Not that I’m leaving, I’m just saying.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So what you are saying is that I have now passed into a new phase, where I will no longer neglect my own ENs even if it is to the ultimate ending of my M. If she decides to float back into deep withdrawl, I should not be trying to entice her through laying off her meeting my needs anymore. If a year goes by and she is still in this same withdrawl, what do you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, look at it this way. The longer you give and give and give and don’t assert your needs the harder it is going to get. The harder it gets, the more prone to LBing you are. So, that is why you want to start this NOW while you still have some ‘oompf’ left in ya. So, yes, you assert your needs: calmly, respectfully, directly. Then after a period of time (say, in a year.. though a year from NOW seems long.. I’d say at the year ‘total’ mark, depending) if she isn’t ready to re-engage, you withdraw to a higher risk strategy which is Plan B. In Plan B, you curtail contact and you meet NONE of her needs and allow her to decide then if she wants to commit to the marriage or not. Now, if you happen to send her spinning into withdrawal by indulging in a LB fest, then you get to go back into more Plan Aish behavior. But, you’re not going to do that, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, I've got to commit some of these exact sentences to memory. Now, do I still hold off and only try to get into these discussions at MC still, right? or, should I be trying to discuss things with my W at home. For example, is it appropriate for me to ask for SF over the weekend, or not? You see, I am still trying to find my feet as I go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For now, yes, keep it confined to MC. I’d like to see you get all of your needs out on the table before you do anything else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right, maybe my W needs to talk through what she is afraid of, or why it may bother her that her H is so interested in sex. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, if nothing else the information might be useful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you may have missed what I was getting at here. I was asking for your opinion about my W's actions and statements. I do not understand them. I would think that it is a real easy thing to understand that you are risking your M by not meeting your H's needs. Maybe you could reread this paragraph and offer me some thoughts? I would appreciate it. Thanks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, this is the crazy part of this whole puzzle. My W constantly says that she trusts me 100% with knowning that I will never cheat on her. I am sure she believes this in her heart. She almost goes out of her way to to show me this. So I believe her. What I do not understand is that if she knows she is not meeting my biggest EN and is in fact puts me down for having SF as my biggest EN, how can she feel so secure that I would not look elsewhere for this EN to be met. I am not even sure that I won't. Is this her actually taking me for granted? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t know if it’s taking you for granted. It MIGHT be, of course.

There are also other things it could be. It could be that she knows how strong your negative feelings are about the idea considering your past and conclude (not unreasonably) that you’d never do THAT to someone else. I’m not entirely sure what you’ve told her about the subject, but from knowing you, I can easily imagine you saying something like “That is SO wrong; I’d NEVER do that!”

Considering how much you talk about the importance of fidelity related behaviors and how much they mean to you, it’s not unlikely that she believes that you practice what you preach in this area. You don’t really strike me as a ‘do as I say not as I do’ kind of man. For what it’s worth, I would form a comparable opinion.

Her going out of her way to show you that level of trust, could be a reflection of the type of trust she’d like YOU to show HER. Many times, people will treat people like they want to be treated – that’s the golden rule, after all. So, her treatment of you in that area might be her way of showing you through actions what type of behavior she’d like you to show her. In other words, she has no intention of cheating and she believes you have no intention of cheating; so if she treats you one way maybe you’ll catch on that it doesn’t mean you have to go out and cheat. Therefore, you might conclude that it’s safe to treat her the same way. Maybe she’d LIKE to have you go out of your way to prove to her that you don’t think she’s out looking for an affair.

What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then they start in with my W (we were not married yet) and ask some standard questions and then get to the questions of if I beat her, do I mistreat her, does she know information on my family in case she could not find me, does she think I will stay with her, does she think I will make a good father, would I take care of her financially if I left her. We got sooooooooo upset that we kicked them out of the room. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow! I can’t imagine the … er.. chutzpah (to put it nicely) those people were able to muster! Don’t they know that picking on post partum ladies is a bad, bad, idea. All those hormones…I always just provide lots of cushy cuddly things and stay a safe distance.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She still had some desire (at least to try and fix what she percieved to be a problem still). Therefore, at this time, I knew that I loved her and always would. I proposed to her for many different reasons. Number one because I love her. The others made our lives better. I do not regret Ming her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it sounds like at the time she thought it was fixable. Maybe she doesn’t any more. I’ll try to think of a nice, delicate way of asking that question. I usually like direct, but this might need a slightly softer touch.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This started happening after April, when I started to take the tact that I could see how I might have been causing some issues. I had no other answers and no where to really turn. I found MB and started to understand how my actions were not helping our situation. It was around this time she began to shove all the "blame" from her to me and started me jumping through a million hoops to "prove" things to her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh? Now that is interesting. I’ll have to think about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, we used to joke how we survived changing jobs, moving, having a baby and building a house before we were married, therefore, since these are the things that are mostly blamed for breaking up marriages, we certainly could accomplish anything together as a team. Some where, some how, we lost that "team." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s always sad. *hugs*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, we need to become stronger partners again. That was when I was the happiest in my entire life! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks Mys. Your support really helps to keep me going. I really appreciate it. You are a wonderful person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aww… thanks! I really needed to hear that this morning because for some reason I’m just feeling out of sorts. I think it’s the weather (seriously) because it’s windy and overcast and grey. Ugh. That’s pretty much how I feel inside, too. Windy, overcast, and grey. Yuck.

Mys

MOS -

I understand what you are saying, but I have to clear some things up. I do treat my W as we are partners. She is definitely the one who feels she does not contribute much because she does not work. I constantly am saying to her that we both are equal and if it was not for both of us we could not be where we are today. I truly mean all this.

Now, regarding what I wrote, I wrote this in the context that my W is treating me like an outsider when it comes to having a relationship with her that goes beyond being roomates. I wrote as if we were looking at each other in our raw forms and as individuals. My entire point was that I, as an individual, even if I was not her H, even if we did not have a S and if I was a roomate, the things I have done or agreed to with her (my actions) definitely should not be able to be taken in any other way than that I truly love her and am a person who is making her as happy as she will allow her self to be.

I hope this explained it a little better anyway. If I were a person who said things like this to my W, I would expect her to leave as well.

Thanks,

EL

Ask her if she just wants a "roomate situation" for the rest of the marriage....

Ask her if she prefers a celebate marriage.

Ask her how she feels about the sexual issues RIGHT NOW and that you understand her feelings could change in the future. You need to know what she feels right now!

She needs to think about these things and let you know how she feels about this issue. You have the right to know! She is still(I think) hiding the truth from you and from the counselor and maybe from herself.

And OF COURSE she will not say in front of the counselor that she never wants sex again! (even though that is the way she truly feels and has said it to you many times)

Come to think of it ask her if she STILL feels that she would be happy without sex ever again. She has said this before. Don't ignore what she has said before about this. I seems like nothing has changed for you two sexually since the last time she made this statement that she is happy without sex.

Do you know why she will not admit that to the counselor?

It is because she won't be "pinned down" on anything. Like in court, she won't make a statement that will cause the counselor to question her furthur. She would rather say she does not know or like in court, "I do not recall".

She is smart and is good at avoiding the truth. She could care less how much this avoidance hurts you. I cannot stand to see the pain you are going through because she will not be honest with you, her counselor, and herself. And she does not want to be prodded by the MC into changing her stance on the sex issue. She is keeping that one close to her chest.....unrevealed to you and the MC.

Here is my question for you. If she has said several times to you, "I could be happy without ever having sex again", then why don't you believe her? Why are you still asking her about sex?

She told you how she felt, now believe her. Believe that right now, she never wants sex again. And I would bring "that statement of hers" to the next MC session possibly something like this:

" MC, I want to report that in thinking back on the sexual issue, I remember several times in Feb 2004, June and again in July, my wife (she is sitting right there listening) stated she would be happy if she never had sex ever again."

The counselor will then say something....

Drop this TRUTH BOMB in counseling and see what kind of explosion you can get.

Explosions can lead to change and growth. But if truth is always hidden and no one digs for it, then no growth or change will ever happen.

You have waited long enough. I think you need to be bravely assertive here and tell your MC what your wife has said again and again. Before all your love for her dies.

Quit pretending to yourself, the MC, or your wife that she will ever want sex again by some miracle. Her words and actions show she does not want sex again. SHE HAS TOLD YOU THIS!

But all is not lost. If you bring this out in counseling and "pin her down" by her own words and actions FOR ONCE, maybe something will happen to change things.

1. She has not had sex with you for a year
2. She has told you more than once that she would be happy never having sex again.

HER WORDS AND ACTIONS BOTH SUPPORT THE "NO DESIRE FOR SEX" RULE IN HER MIND. WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE THIS AND WORK FROM THERE INSTEAD OF LETTING HER CONTINUE TO LIE TO YOU, THE MC AND HERSELF.

When you both face the truth AS IT STANDS NOW, in all its stark enirety, then you can move on or change.

Until you face this truth, which she has said again and again and again and shows to you every day she will not have sex with you, things will flounder, be hidden, and stay the same, and all this time you are wasting hundreds of dollars of your money on counseling that is not dealing bluntly with the actual truth of the situation!

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

The other thing you can say to your wife is this:

"I am not going to guess about our sexual life any longer. I am going to finally break down and believe what you said as "gospel" in Feb, June and July as the truth of what you feel, (you know, you said that you would be happy never to have sex again?) and go by that."

"Now, having said this, what can I do to get my sexual needs met in this scenereo? If you do not want to have sex and I do, what can we do to save our marriage? What do people do when both spouses want different things? What is a good solution here?"

You are not LB'ING but you ARE bringing out TRUTH. Truth is a good starting point to finding solutions for personal differences.

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>