Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just wondering if anyone has heard from Mys lately? I hope everything with her is good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m here! Everything is going well; we’ve just been busy, busy, busy.

I’m pleased with how your last MC session went. It sounds like your list of needs has sparked some good discussion and things are looking up. Keep on working on getting that list completely read in the MC session.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One issue I have is that I truly do want to make sure that my W has a pleasurable time. I do ask and I do say what can I do. She does not answer or will not tell me. I think she is embarassed to talk about it for some reason. She did tell me about a year ago, that it is a turn off for her for the guy to ask her if she had an "O," so now what am I supposed to do. If I listen to her request, I am never supposed to ask. However, if I listen to what you are telling me, I am uncaring for asking. So what is it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she prefers that you don’t ask, then don’t ask.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is why I am choosing to not really believe her comment a year ago because in the beginning she loved it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are many ways to think about this comment. It didn’t sound like she said “Don’t do that, I don’t like it and I’ve never liked it!” Instead, it sounds like she said “You don’t have to do that anymore because it’s not doing anything for me NOW.” People change. People’s likes and dislikes change, as well. It may be that she never wants oral again or, it might be that she redevelops an interest in it. This strikes me as a ‘current state’ bit of information rather than a “this is how it’s always been” statement. Do you see the difference?

I’m not sure that it’s a safe assumption that her preference for oral will change with your relationship. It might be safe to assume her preference for sex might change but trying to project that to specific acts might be going a bit too far.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, my W is not herself and we are not who we used to be due to circumstances that I am trying to really work on. I hold the belief in my heart that we can become those two loving people from before. With this logic, I am believing that she will once again, like oral. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s possible but not necessarily certain. Let me ask you this question. If she never redeveloped an interest in RECEIVING oral sex, would that indicate anything to you other than she’s no longer interested?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ya know, why is it, at times all of you guys tell me (and it says in MB info) to not give much credence to some really negative things your spouse says throughout this recovery process because they do not really mena it, yet I am getting jumped on when I do this for not taking my W at her word? This really sounds like a double standard to me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hrm. I’m not sure this is an accurate reflection of what we’ve (or, perhaps I should say, I’ve) been asking you to do.

I maintain that if she tells you something explicitly that you believe that she’s being honest and it’s true for the moment. What I have asked you to do is not to interpret her words in negative ways. You know you have a tendency to want to jump to the “… .and therefore she doesn’t love me anymore.. “ conclusion.

I think there is a big difference between listening to what she says and taking it in the NOW instead of making it retroactive or forcing it too far into the future. For example, if she says “Oral doesn’t do anything for me.” That is very different than saying: “Oral has NEVER done anything for me, I’ve never liked it at all.” One statement is current news you can use and the other is regarding historic events. Don’t confuse ‘recent’ past with ‘distant’ past. If she is talking about oral ‘not doing it for her’ it might be based on the last 3 times… and not have to project back to the very first encounter you had.

By the same token, what she says today has to do with her current state of today and is true and valid TODAY. But, that doesn’t mean it will be that way next year. Give her room to change her mind. So, if today she says “Oral doesn’t do anything for me.” Give her room to say “I’d like you to give me oral sex” in the future if her mind changes.

I think this is a common disconnect between Thinkers and Feelers, actually. My H has similar tendencies to shoe horn me into opinions which have nothing to do with how I actually feel. He does this based on statements that I make (offhand usually) about subjects based on how I am feeling in a particular moment. Then, later on, when I ask why we no longer do <whatever> I get an explanation about how I stopped liking it. Usually, it’s news to me! After all these years, I think I’ve mostly pounded into his head that he needs to NOT assume has a clue whether or not I like something until he asks me and gets an answer. And, that he needs to ask again later and not assume that answer is ever set in stone. As I told him, if he wants consistency, go buy some cottage cheese. I’m not consistent.

One of the funniest arguments we’ve had (funny in retrospect) was where he was trying to convince me that I don’t like pets. Finally, I stopped, looked at him and said: “What ARE you talking about? How on earth can we be having an argument about what I like?! I’d like to suggest to you that you are going to loose this one because, dear, I happen to be a leading expert on exactly what I feel. At which point, he stopped trying to convince me I didn’t know my own mind with his collection of ‘facts.’

Anyway, the practical upshot of all that is that I change! Sometimes I change without notice or even without noticing. The best, most practical way to figure out what I think/feel is to ask me. I realize your wife is not as forthcoming with those answers as you’d like. One thing you might consider is how often you argue about what your wife ‘truly feels/says/means/thinks based on a conglomeration of ‘facts’ you’ve collected. If you fall into that trap, it might be a very strong reason your wife doesn’t share with you very often. It is one of my pet peeves in life to be told how I feel/think or what I want/like. I find it the height of disrespectful and utter arrogance for anyone else to assume they know my mind better than I do. Think about it.

At the risk of beating this dead horse a bit more, I’m going to expand a bit further on interpretation. My H felt/thought (might still feel/think) that he’s perfectly justified in interpreting my actions and trying to guess how I feel/think. Actually, that’s fine except he usually manages to guess wrong. Things got much better in our relationship when he learned to stop guessing and then arguing his ‘logic’ about his conclusion with me. He has an expert on tap (Me!) to ask any time he needs to know what’s going on with me. It saves a lot of confusion, disappointment, and angst if he just asks me.

And, just for the record, I’m not disparaging his logic. He is a very logical guy. I’m just not a very logical (feeling wise) person. There are lots of emotional reasons for why I do what I do. I understand WHY he draws the conclusions that he draws but that doesn’t make them true. He can ‘prove to me’ that his logic is flawless to 3 significant decimal places and I still won’t feel that way. He says I do it to be difficult. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Does that clear up the double standard? Believe what your wife says is true and valid for her TODAY. Don’t make those statements retroactive to your past and don’t project them forward into your future. I think what you meant by your statement was that you weren’t necessarily projecting your wife’s preference for oral forward (which is a good thing) but the way you said it made it sound like you doubted her in the present (which is not good).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Finally, I definitely do not believe that my W must like what I like. However, I wish she would tell me what it actually is that she likes. When asked, "what can I do to give you more pleasure?" She responds, "I don't know." What am I supposed to say or do after this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When do you ask this question? Timing can be everything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I immediately said, "I am sorry for yelling, we should not yell at each other." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop using the royal “We.” Try “I’m sorry for yelling. I should not yell at you.” instead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Later she apologized for yelling. I still do not get the feeling we are closer. Later last night, she told me that she does not see my controling tendencies anymore. I thanked her for her openess. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds good to me. So, how are you feeling today? A little encouraged, I hope.

Mys

Hello Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m here! Everything is going well; we’ve just been busy, busy, busy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Glad your still around! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sounds like your busy. Well, I hope it is all in a good way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m pleased with how your last MC session went. It sounds like your list of needs has sparked some good discussion and things are looking up. Keep on working on getting that list completely read in the MC session.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I thought it was a pretty positive session. However, I still really did not get to read down my list and go over points from the list. The MC diverted me by wanting to continue to discuss the SF issue and my W continued to talk about some things without getting upset, so I just rolled with it. However, in the back of my mind, I kept thinking I was going to get a 2x4 upside the head for not pushing more to read through the list. But, I felt the MC was finally trying to do something so I let her go. We did not really solve or agree on much, nor did she give us any assignments, but for some reason, the fact that we did not have an explosion during the session and talked about SF made me feel pretty good. Still not sure what we really accomplished. Now we are back to normal around the house, where we do not really talk about our M. We just do the things necessary around the house. Once in a while, I will try to ask about some things, like last night regarding a controling person on TV, and my W will somewhat respond positively. I guess that is progress. I really still do not understand how me move even further forward. I do not know if I should be doing more than trying to work on my LBing and DJing, while leaving major discussions for the MC. I do see small changes in subtle things, but not really enough to draw me closer to my W emotionally or physically yet. I do not know. I still will try to hug and kiss her good night. However, if I do not make the effort, she does not try to do any of this. I guess I feel like I am still in a state of limbo. I know these things take time. I have not written much, because I felt there has not really been much to report. Were just co-existing for right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she prefers that you don’t ask, then don’t ask. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think eventually, this will be something we will need to POJA because I have a need to please her and know that I actually am pleasing her. I would like for her to be more uninhibited when/if we are back to a more normal physical relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There are many ways to think about this comment. It didn’t sound like she said “Don’t do that, I don’t like it and I’ve never liked it!” Instead, it sounds like she said “You don’t have to do that anymore because it’s not doing anything for me NOW.” People change. People’s likes and dislikes change, as well. It may be that she never wants oral again or, it might be that she redevelops an interest in it. This strikes me as a ‘current state’ bit of information rather than a “this is how it’s always been” statement. Do you see the difference?

I’m not sure that it’s a safe assumption that her preference for oral will change with your relationship. It might be safe to assume her preference for sex might change but trying to project that to specific acts might be going a bit too far.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, you actually understood what I meant to say, but used the wrong words to do so. I was taking what she was saying as true for right now, however, I believe she will change back to like certain things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s possible but not necessarily certain. Let me ask you this question. If she never redeveloped an interest in RECEIVING oral sex, would that indicate anything to you other than she’s no longer interested?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I might think she is being closed off to the idea of change and her potentially liking things that she may not realize she actually likes. I know this is her decision though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does that clear up the double standard? Believe what your wife says is true and valid for her TODAY. Don’t make those statements retroactive to your past and don’t project them forward into your future. I think what you meant by your statement was that you weren’t necessarily projecting your wife’s preference for oral forward (which is a good thing) but the way you said it made it sound like you doubted her in the present (which is not good).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, were on the same page. You just explained it better than I did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When do you ask this question? Timing can be everything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked this at different times; during an encounter, when we were just having light hearted conversation, when we were having serious conversations. I have tried to find answers to what makes her happy and gives her pleasure since I have known her. I just think she is inhibited and embarrassed (shy) to discuss sex.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Stop using the royal “We.” Try “I’m sorry for yelling. I should not yell at you.” instead. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sounds good to me. So, how are you feeling today? A little encouraged, I hope.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I know I should probably be feeling encouraged, yet the difficult thing is how slowly things progress. I mean, I would have thought by now we could atleast attempt regular cuddle sessions, but I do not know. When we get into bed at night, I just feel like things are colder and a wall is put up between us. She still huddle to her side of the edge of the bed on our king size bed. It makes me feel like she does not want me there, however, she will say she just feels more comfortable facing out from the center of the bed. Again, I am feeling numb I guess, not really one way or the other. I guess, in the back of my mind, I was thinking that now that we seemed to have a positive MC session and talked about some things, there would be more progress. We do not meet with the MC until a week from this Thursday. After that session, I think the one following that will also be two weeks apart, due to scheduling issues for us. So I am feeling like, we are just making a small little amount of progress and meanwhile, from things out of our control, those things that are helping us are slowing down. I am concerned and fireghtened as to where to go from here and how to go from here. This past weekend, we spent at our home and did a lot of cleaning. We did not really go out much other than to take our S to a movie. I felt tired of everything. Maybe I am starting to run out of steam. I do not know.

Thanks for responding. I am glad you are doing OK.

EL

Ask her if the fact that she "doubled her weight and body size" during the pregnancy has any effect on her not wanting much sex.

Then ask her if sex "feels" the same as before the baby. Often women become numb down there if there is a traumatic birth. Why did they not do a C section on her? Did she or you insist on a regular vaginal birth with all its trauma?

I know if this happened to me, and I was a petite woman who was shocked that 90 lbs of pregnancy weight appeared on my small frame against my will I would never want sex again. I am surprised she is still having sex with you at all. That is pretty good. And you have that to work with. I would make every sexual encounter as pleasurable as possible for her.

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

It would be like "The Alien" to have my body grow that big that fast without anything in the world I can do about it!!!! Yuck! I gotta get over this....just thinking about it makes me never want sex again....myself.

I don't know how petite women do it, have children that is. I am amazed at the sacrifice they make and thier bravery. They sacrifice thier body and thier future sexual pleasure.

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Glad your still around! Sounds like your busy. Well, I hope it is all in a good way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s in a very good way. We’re settling in and getting things done. We took some time off this weekend just to spend together relaxing and enjoying each other’s company. It’s been way too long since that happened, it seems.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I thought it was a pretty positive session. However, I still really did not get to read down my list and go over points from the list. The MC diverted me by wanting to continue to discuss the SF issue and my W continued to talk about some things without getting upset, so I just rolled with it. However, in the back of my mind, I kept thinking I was going to get a 2x4 upside the head for not pushing more to read through the list </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No 2X4 here. Focused flexibility is the name of the game. It sounds like the ground that you actually covered was VERY worthwhile.

There was some good information brought forth. She feels as though your relationship is getting better. She feels as though you aren’t pushing her away and that you’ve corrected a number of issues that she didn’t like. She acknowledges the possibility of a physical relationship if things continue to improve. All good stuff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really still do not understand how me move even further forward. I do not know if I should be doing more than trying to work on my LBing and DJing, while leaving major discussions for the MC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not make small thoughtful requests for some physical affection and touch (cuddling, etc.)? Just try keep an open spirit and mind and let her truly choose without heaping on resentment if you ask and she declines. Give her opportunities to say “yes.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know these things take time. I have not written much, because I felt there has not really been much to report. Were just co-existing for right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It does take time… and it’s usually not a dramatic change. It tends to be a gradual change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think eventually, this will be something we will need to POJA because I have a need to please her and know that I actually am pleasing her. I would like for her to be more uninhibited when/if we are back to a more normal physical relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be a little careful with this. I think that you can POJA having a conversation about sex and sexual fulfillment. I don’t think you can POJA someone’s feelings/thoughts/ or opinions. So, trying to POJA her into being uninhibited or less shy is unlikely to be successful. Also, trying to POJA a need for her to be pleased is also unlikely to be successful.

I worry about this because I wonder if ‘pleased’ is a euphemism for ‘orgasm.’ I understand you wanting to bring her to orgasm. I cringe when you state that as a ‘need’ because it comes across as being a very controlling attitude. You want to be able to manipulate her experience for your own needs (because you’d like it to be that way) rather than allowing her to experience the sex as she actually experiences it. My personal philosophy tends to be that orgasms are a personal choice. They should not be required or compelled in order for my partner to have a fulfilling experience. Nor, am I particularly happy if my experience is then labeled as “not good” by someone else because I didn’t achieve orgasm. In that kind of climate, I doubt I ever would – though I might be convinced to fake it if that was the only way to gracefully exit the situation.

I think that you should strive for her to experience sexual fulfillment by what ever terms SHE defines fulfillment as being. If her definition of sexual fulfillment does not include orgasm for herself then I think you should respect that and strive to offer her whatever WOULD constitute fulfillment for her. Even if the idea that sexual fulfillment not including orgasm is strange or alien to you. You see, this is a very tender part of people’s psyche. If you want to have an honest discussion with her, you have to toss out all of your preconceived notions and allow her to define fulfillment in anyway she wants to define it and then try to meet THOSE criteria instead of the ones you think are ‘better’ or ‘more enjoyable’ or ‘she’d like more if she just gave it a chance.’

You should define sexual fulfillment as being whatever brings you true fulfillment. Perhaps you are alluding to the idea that your ability to bring her to orgasm is what constitutes fulfillment to you. Is fulfillment a result of your perceived prowess? If so, would you be able to redefine your definition of prowess and idea of ‘being a good lover’ to revolve around whatever her definition turns out to be? (And, who’s to say, maybe her definition of fulfillment WILL be orgasm. I’m not suggesting that it isn’t – I’m only suggesting that assuming it MUST be is a fallacy.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I might think she is being closed off to the idea of change and her potentially liking things that she may not realize she actually likes. I know this is her decision though. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, since it’s an experience that she’s had as opposed to something completely new, I’d say it’s a pretty safe bet that she can determine whether or not she’d actually like it. If she doesn’t want or isn’t in the mood for the experience, she’s not likely to enjoy it. You often say that I’m a lot like your wife and I’ll tell you how I feel. Oral is great – when I’m in the mood for it. If I’m not, it’s quite the opposite of great. If I’m not ready for it, it can actually be painful. Those are tender parts down there. Extreme arousal is what makes it attractive. Now, I realize this is different for some women but, for me, oral is NEVER a good ‘warm up.’

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have asked this at different times; during an encounter, when we were just having light hearted conversation, when we were having serious conversations. I have tried to find answers to what makes her happy and gives her pleasure since I have known her. I just think she is inhibited and embarrassed (shy) to discuss sex. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

For me, the best time to have that conversation is immediately prior. Not ‘during’ when I’m not interested in stopping to think about it and not at some other time when it’s not on my mind .. but just around when the kissing starts but the touching hasn’t yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I know I should probably be feeling encouraged, yet the difficult thing is how slowly things progress. I mean, I would have thought by now we could atleast attempt regular cuddle sessions, but I do not know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How many thoughtful requests for cuddling did you make last week?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We do not meet with the MC until a week from this Thursday. After that session, I think the one following that will also be two weeks apart, due to scheduling issues for us. So I am feeling like, we are just making a small little amount of progress and meanwhile, from things out of our control, those things that are helping us are slowing down. I am concerned and fireghtened as to where to go from here and how to go from here. This past weekend, we spent at our home and did a lot of cleaning. We did not really go out much other than to take our S to a movie. I felt tired of everything. Maybe I am starting to run out of steam. I do not know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah. Yes, the holidays are busy times for us all. I think it’s time to just work on the few things you have going on, relax, and enjoy the holidays. Wait until things settle down after the new year. If you can, try to concentrate on eliminating your LB’s and giving her opportunities (thoughtful requests) for some basic affection (cuddling, etc). Yes, I know, it’s slow but you are making progress. Go back a few pages and read where you were and compare that to where you are now. You’re moving, Extremely Lost. It’s just never as fast as we’d like it to be.

Mys

I think your wife needs to get over the PTSD she must have from that terrible pregnancy and birth. I bet if she got over that she might want sex "more" again. If you double or triple up on birth control she may want sex a bit more too.

Baba -

I respect your opinion, but share different views.

First, when I met my W she had pre-cancerous cells and was under the impression that she might not ever be able to have a child.

When she became pregnant early on in our R, we were both surprised because the form of birth control she was using failed.

Ironically, at the same time she was pregnant, a good girlfriend at the time was also pregnant. My W knew that I would support any decision she desired because it would be her body going through this and not mine. My W chose to have the baby with or without me (her decision as evident from the dinner with her mother that I wrote about). The ironic thing here is that her girlfriend decided to have an abortion and keep her pregnancy a secret. My W was supportive. Then this girl friend turned on my W and alienated my W for having a baby. My W learned quickly who her real friends were.

I love my W and wanted to do anything I could to help her. My W is a very independent person who found it difficult to accept help from anyone.

I do not know about what its like where you live, but where we are living, the doctors determined that my W was fine, not in any danger and able to give birth naturally. Having a "C" - section was not allowed as an option or a choice. It was explained how the "C" - section was something that would be done if there were any complications. Now, I was ignorant on the entire process. This is the first baby I have ever had. My W's weight gain was monitored by doctors and we were always told, everything was OK. Who are we to question the doctors about all of this?

Anyway, my W is pretty intelligent and she does do her research. She read everything she could about pregnancy when she was pregnant. She did a ton of research about raising a child as well.

I am sorry that you feel the way you do about having a child. It was the best experience in both our lives, and my W will tell you that. We truly love our S and are thankful for him every day. You know there was a point when my S was two, he had a febrile seizure. They do not really tell you about these things until they happen. Apparently, they are quite common. Anyway, our S had a really bad seizure, where he actually stopped breathing. We tried to do CPR and had the ambulance take him to the hospital. I tell you, at that moment, you truly understand how helpless, we as humans, really are. I thank God everyday for our S.

There are a lot of women (petite ones too) that have babies and never have problems giving birth or throughout pregnancy. I do not think it is fair to project the opinion you are projecting onto a lot of women, because it does not take into account the large number of positive things that come from this experience. Your opinion only looks at and values the bad that might happen.

Take Care Baba,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s in a very good way. We’re settling in and getting things done. We took some time off this weekend just to spend together relaxing and enjoying each other’s company. It’s been way too long since that happened, it seems. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you! I am happy for you and your H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No 2X4 here. Focused flexibility is the name of the game. It sounds like the ground that you actually covered was VERY worthwhile.

There was some good information brought forth. She feels as though your relationship is getting better. She feels as though you aren’t pushing her away and that you’ve corrected a number of issues that she didn’t like. She acknowledges the possibility of a physical relationship if things continue to improve. All good stuff.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for not taking a swing. Yeah, I was pretty charged up after the MC session. Now, I feel like I am in the bad part of a sugar high if you know what I mean. I am indifferent and annoyed by things. I know I have to give myself a kick and get motivated again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why not make small thoughtful requests for some physical affection and touch (cuddling, etc.)? Just try keep an open spirit and mind and let her truly choose without heaping on resentment if you ask and she declines. Give her opportunities to say “yes.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are right. I was just unsure about "pushing" things too far. I was concerned at this point that even small requests may be seen as "my slipping back into old behaviors."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Be a little careful with this. I think that you can POJA having a conversation about sex and sexual fulfillment. I don’t think you can POJA someone’s feelings/thoughts/ or opinions. So, trying to POJA her into being uninhibited or less shy is unlikely to be successful. Also, trying to POJA a need for her to be pleased is also unlikely to be successful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its just important for me to know that she understands that it is paramount to me that I please her. Thats all. I do not want to project what I think should be fullfilling to her. I want her to feel comfortable enough to want to share what she thinks would be fullfilling and strong enough to help me take her there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, since it’s an experience that she’s had as opposed to something completely new, I’d say it’s a pretty safe bet that she can determine whether or not she’d actually like it. If she doesn’t want or isn’t in the mood for the experience, she’s not likely to enjoy it. You often say that I’m a lot like your wife and I’ll tell you how I feel. Oral is great – when I’m in the mood for it. If I’m not, it’s quite the opposite of great. If I’m not ready for it, it can actually be painful. Those are tender parts down there. Extreme arousal is what makes it attractive. Now, I realize this is different for some women but, for me, oral is NEVER a good ‘warm up.’
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. I can accept this concept.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For me, the best time to have that conversation is immediately prior. Not ‘during’ when I’m not interested in stopping to think about it and not at some other time when it’s not on my mind .. but just around when the kissing starts but the touching hasn’t yet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, I think my W may take this timing as a "mood kill."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How many thoughtful requests for cuddling did you make last week?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">None. At what point do you think she might cuddle with me without my having to make a request? Just a question, not playing games here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah. Yes, the holidays are busy times for us all. I think it’s time to just work on the few things you have going on, relax, and enjoy the holidays. Wait until things settle down after the new year. If you can, try to concentrate on eliminating your LB’s and giving her opportunities (thoughtful requests) for some basic affection (cuddling, etc). Yes, I know, it’s slow but you are making progress. Go back a few pages and read where you were and compare that to where you are now. You’re moving, Extremely Lost. It’s just never as fast as we’d like it to be.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, and it is the time that her mom is having major surgery just after Thanksgiving. I just have trouble keeping my spirits up without major movement forward after so long. Yes, I do understand that my new found MB efforts have only been going on since April, but it does not take away from the feelings I have that I was actually trying (all be it uneducatedly trying) for years.

Thanks Mys, I am glad you and your H have had time to reconnect. Take care of yourself.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good for you! I am happy for you and your H. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*smiles* Thanks!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for not taking a swing. Yeah, I was pretty charged up after the MC session. Now, I feel like I am in the bad part of a sugar high if you know what I mean. I am indifferent and annoyed by things. I know I have to give myself a kick and get motivated again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No swings here. Your indifference and annoyance is your Taker reminding you that he’s still there. Time to let him out just a wee bit and make some of those Thoughtful requests.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, you are right. I was just unsure about "pushing" things too far. I was concerned at this point that even small requests may be seen as "my slipping back into old behaviors." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, keep it light and truly a REQUEST – meaning no sulking or punishment if she declines and I think you’ll be just fine. Make it about you and not about things you want to do to benefit her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Its just important for me to know that she understands that it is paramount to me that I please her. Thats all. I do not want to project what I think should be fullfilling to her. I want her to feel comfortable enough to want to share what she thinks would be fullfilling and strong enough to help me take her there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*nods* Good deal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, I think my W may take this timing as a "mood kill." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she might.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> None. At what point do you think she might cuddle with me without my having to make a request? Just a question, not playing games here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s a very difficult question to answer. I don’t know how much of a natural ‘cuddler’ she is – some people are natural cuddlers and some people aren’t. If she’s never been a natural cuddler the answer might be not any time soon or never. If she IS a natural cuddler it might be around the time that she’s no longer worried about cuddling leading to sexual expectations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know, and it is the time that her mom is having major surgery just after Thanksgiving. I just have trouble keeping my spirits up without major movement forward after so long. Yes, I do understand that my new found MB efforts have only been going on since April, but it does not take away from the feelings I have that I was actually trying (all be it uneducatedly trying) for years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah, you guys have a lot coming up with the holidays and the surgery and all. I’d really like it if you could manage your expectations for anything major happening through the end of the year. Her focus is probably going to be on helping her mother (perfectly natural) and then making the holidays special for you and your little one. Holidays, as fun as they can be, are usually hectic times of the year.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks Mys, I am glad you and your H have had time to reconnect. Take care of yourself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you. Things are going better around here. I’m feeling a bit more grounded but there are STILL way too many boxes everywhere.

I hope that you have a good holiday season and learn not to worry quite so much all the time. That doesn’t mean you’re excused, by the way, we still expect updates. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mys

EL,

The key to all of it starts with the intimacy. What exactly are you doing to rebuild that?

Check this out and do the quiz, it can be a real eye opener on what all plays into intimacy in a marriage. It follows along with MB. ALL the areas of EN's need attention for intimacy to be maintained.

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/abuse/survivors/partners/intimacy_drdoug.htm

To start creating intimacy, you have to respect her feelings and requests of you, without that you are just pushing her further away.

I have not read the entire thread, so I don't know what other issues you might be dealing with, but I will try to go back and start at the beginning and make it through the whole thread, lol make take a week or two.

You really do need to identify steps and a plan for bringing the emotional intimacy and safety back to the relationship.

Hey Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No swings here. Your indifference and annoyance is your Taker reminding you that he’s still there. Time to let him out just a wee bit and make some of those Thoughtful requests.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll try. Last night I did not request anything, however, in bed, I reached over and we held hands for about 10 minutes. This was good. I took my W and S out for dinner last night. One of the things that bothers me is that my W is pretty picky about dinner. She is not very adventerous. We went out for chinese and she had trouble finding something she liked, she did not eat what she ordered, the chair bothered her, our S annoyed her. I just let this all slip off my back and had a good evening.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, keep it light and truly a REQUEST – meaning no sulking or punishment if she declines and I think you’ll be just fine. Make it about you and not about things you want to do to benefit her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. A question that I have had throughout this whole thing is that isn't it a nice thing to show the person you love that you want to do something to benefit them? I know you keep telling me to not say things in this manner, but to be truthful, I would feel nice if my W said some things like this to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That’s a very difficult question to answer. I don’t know how much of a natural ‘cuddler’ she is – some people are natural cuddlers and some people aren’t. If she’s never been a natural cuddler the answer might be not any time soon or never. If she IS a natural cuddler it might be around the time that she’s no longer worried about cuddling leading to sexual expectations.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and I guess this is something that is learned, not told to you. So I have to get the opportunity to cuddle with her and show her that I have no expectations beyond.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh yeah, you guys have a lot coming up with the holidays and the surgery and all. I’d really like it if you could manage your expectations for anything major happening through the end of the year. Her focus is probably going to be on helping her mother (perfectly natural) and then making the holidays special for you and your little one. Holidays, as fun as they can be, are usually hectic times of the year.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I hear ya. (takes deep breath)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thank you. Things are going better around here. I’m feeling a bit more grounded but there are STILL way too many boxes everywhere.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My S would probably love your house. He loves boxes and has a great imagination. He tends to make spaceships out of all types of boxes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope that you have a good holiday season and learn not to worry quite so much all the time. That doesn’t mean you’re excused, by the way, we still expect updates. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you kidding, I am going to write back and forth with you guys as much as I can. I very much still need your help and guidance through this. Thanks so much for the time Mys.

MBFW -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The key to all of it starts with the intimacy. What exactly are you doing to rebuild that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everything I can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To start creating intimacy, you have to respect her feelings and requests of you, without that you are just pushing her further away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have had this drilled into my head and am trying to live by this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not read the entire thread, so I don't know what other issues you might be dealing with, but I will try to go back and start at the beginning and make it through the whole thread, lol make take a week or two.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I wish you well reading through it all. I definitely welcome any of your efforts. Once you've gotten through this, I would like to here your POV. Maybe you will see a progression throughout all of this that I have yet to see.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You really do need to identify steps and a plan for bringing the emotional intimacy and safety back to the relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could not agree more. It is difficlut because it is not as easy as devising a more concrete plan. I am continuosly working to improve this plan and my M.

Thanks for your thoughts,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> Hey Mys -
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, keep it light and truly a REQUEST – meaning no sulking or punishment if she declines and I think you’ll be just fine. Make it about you and not about things you want to do to benefit her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. A question that I have had throughout this whole thing is that isn't it a nice thing to show the person you love that you want to do something to benefit them? I know you keep telling me to not say things in this manner, but to be truthful, I would feel nice if my W said some things like this to me.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, I think there's two different discussions going on here. If your wife says she wants something, and you offer to do it for her and say you want to do it simply because it's what she wants, that's great.

What mys is referring to is that in the past you've taken the approach of asking for something you want by claiming it's for your wife. It's a method of arguement that works in other kinds of relationships, such as business relationships "here's why doing what I suggest would be to your advantage" is how sales are made. But it makes a mess in something so intimate as marriage. When people talk about selling, they talk about things like "creating a need" where you convince someone they have a "need" they didn't have before and all of a sudden it's to their advantage to buy whatever. It is a form of manipulation, and while we accept it in many forms of relationships such as many business relationships, it will kill intimacy in your marriage.

In your marriage, listen to what your wife says she wants and needs without attempting to define or determine any of it for her.

And if you want something, present it as simply something you want. Leave it up to her to determine for herself what advantages or disadvantages there are to her in what you ask for.

Hello MOS -

Thanks for your explanation. I felt I particularly was able to understand what you were saying because of your drawing a comparison to business and how this is something accepted in todays way of transacting business. I see what you are saying. Thanks.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right. A question that I have had throughout this whole thing is that isn't it a nice thing to show the person you love that you want to do something to benefit them? I know you keep telling me to not say things in this manner, but to be truthful, I would feel nice if my W said some things like this to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes and no.

It is nice to show someone you love that you’re doing something to benefit them provided it’s something that she is asking for you to do. So, if she asks you to stop by the store and pick something up on your way home from work and you do it, that is demonstrating that you are doing something that benefits her. If she asks you to sit and watch a chick flick with her then that is something that benefits her. The trick is that it’s something that SHE has requested.

Where things go awry is when we offer to do things which ‘benefit’ BOTH parties and couch it as for her benefit. For example, if you like physical touch and affection so you offer to cuddle for her benefit. It’s for both of your benefits. Or, if my H buys me a new computer so he can run his new games but couches that as for MY benefit. It’s for our mutual benefit not for MY benefit. Certainly I love new computers but I’m not the only one getting use out of the thing.

Even worse, is when we offer to do things which we THINK our spouse should consider a benefit (can you say DJ?). So, we assume that ‘everyone wants’ <whatever> and offer to do that for our spouse when, in reality, the pay off is going to us. We want <whatever> and so we try and build it up as some great benefit to our spouse when our spouse could care less. For example, I want a larger television. I could make an argument that ‘everyone’ would like a larger television but, to be honest, my H could care less about a larger television. So, if I were go buy him one as a gift – for Xmas, perhaps.. that would be an underhanded way of giving MYSELF a gift instead of choosing something that he would really like.

You just have to be very careful here. If she’s not asking for cuddling or physical affection at the moment, then ask on YOUR behalf not out of some perceived benefit it will do for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and I guess this is something that is learned, not told to you. So I have to get the opportunity to cuddle with her and show her that I have no expectations beyond. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I hear ya. (takes deep breath) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">{{{{EL}}}}

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My S would probably love your house. He loves boxes and has a great imagination. He tends to make spaceships out of all types of boxes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your son would pass out from the sheer joy of all the boxes and wrapping paper.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you kidding, I am going to write back and forth with you guys as much as I can. I very much still need your help and guidance through this. Thanks so much for the time Mys. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It’s great to see you branching out onto other threads, too.

Mys

Guys, I have a question that is bothering me. Recently, like in the last few days, I have noticed that my W has started doing things that I would normally love for her to be doing, yet they are the things that helped her to feel I was controlling her before. She has told me recently that she does not feel like I am controlling her, so I am confused and concerned.

I'll give an example. For instance, she has been wearing her wedding ring all the time. She made a comment the other day that she knows how it bothers me if she does not wear it and two nights ago she needed to take it off when we got into bed because she felt her finger was swollen. So she says to me, "I need to take my ring off for tonight because my finger is swollen." I said, "OK." The next day when I got home from work, she had it on. She used to just forget to put it on and go days without it, which would make me feel sad that she could not easily remember her ring, the symbol of our M.

My issue is this, though a lot of you are probably going to say, this is a good thing and I should be happy, my W doing these things because she is "doing them to make me happy" is exactly (in her mind) the kind of thinking that had caused her to feel controlled by me. I am concerned that maybe she is doing these types of things right now out of being nice because MB seems to be slowly working, yet I am worried that feelings of my controlling her, just because she is doing something "to make me happy."

What do you think? Help me put this into perspective. I know I am not forcing her or DJing her into doing anything, so what do you think? I am concerned because things like this have "flipped" on me in our past where I never really pushed her to do something even though she knows how I would like something, yet she has come back on me to eventually say that "she changed for me and this makes her feel like I am controlling her."

Just pondering,

EL

Well, there's going to be ups and downs on the road to rebuilding your marriage.

So what you fear might come to pass.

Or it might not.

The critical thing for you to do is to keep agressively policing yourself to eliminate all LBs. That is the one thing you can do that will make the greatest difference in whether your wife feels controlled.

It was fairly recently that your told your wife how you wanted her to feel about wearing her ring. That's the kind of thing you need to make sure doesn't happen anymore.

And you need to make sure there's no punishment of any kind if she doesn't wear it -- no sulking in any way, no acting exasperated. If you do these things, then it's not a thoughtful request that she wear the ring; it's a selfish demand.

Um, I'm confused about your last paragraph where you say you worry about her feeling controlled on things where you "never really pushed her".

From where I'm sitting, you've been incredibly pushy at times on the issue of her wearing her ring.

So I don't understand to what you're referring in that last paragraph.

MOS,

I am reffering to the facts that I actually have not been as pushy as your statement makes me sound. Sure I admit to making some mistakes, but I am also evolving as a person. This continual evloving is why my W said to me last Sunday that she does not feel I am controlling anymore. The ring thing was 3.5 - 4 weeks ago. Cut me some slack on how much you think I am LBing. I am just saying that my W has started to do things the way I like them to be done, but in the past I used disrepsectful requests as a way of her doing these things. Now, if I can help it, I am not doing these disrespectful requests anymore (or atleast as much) and she has started doing things how I like them (some things not a lot, but noticable at times).

I know that I used to feel like I would get hit from left field by her because some times she would get mad at me for her doing something how she thought I wanted it done (even if she was right and I would not request anything), then later she comes out to say how she has changed because I made her change and she resents this. I am just worried about this reoccuring, however, these times I am on the MB path. So would you tend to think that she is now doing these things because she wants to because of the MBing I have been doing, or is she more likely slipping back into an old pattern that could explode later? I just am trying to avoid and falling backwards as progress is very slow, but seems to be moving forward at this point.

Thanks,

EL

I know it was a bit ago from your perspective that you told your wife how you wanted her to feel about wearing her ring.

My point is it wasn't all that long ago in the context of your relationship with her.

I'm just trying to remind you that there's a big difference between when you think you have accomplished change and when those around feel secure that you have changed and the old behaviors won't come back.

And I'm still confused about what you meant with the issues where you say you "never pushed her". If you mean "haven't pushed her recently", then I'd suggest avoiding using the word "never" when you talk to your wife as it will only create discord. If you mean that you never felt at the time like you were pushing her, I'd still suggest avoiding using phrasing that you "never pushed" because selfish demands are always pushy, and you have quite an extensive history with them.

It doesn't serve either of us to argue about just how much you have or haven't changed. I'm just trying to remind you that this is not the time to be sitting back and demanding recognition of the changes you've made -- what will be most effective is to wait for your wife to see them on her own, which she already is, and in the meantime push forward yourself by ferreting out LBs in yourself to eliminate.

Oh, by the way, the difference in you now versus several months ago from where I'm sitting is huge.