Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you think? Help me put this into perspective. I know I am not forcing her or DJing her into doing anything, so what do you think? I am concerned because things like this have "flipped" on me in our past where I never really pushed her to do something even though she knows how I would like something, yet she has come back on me to eventually say that "she changed for me and this makes her feel like I am controlling her." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A good way to deal with this is to appreciate her for doing things that make you feel more secure and happy. Don’t over do it and be too effusive; a simple gesture (touching the ring, smiling and kissing her softly), or I really like it <appreciate it> that you’re wearing your ring. It makes me happy. (Then HUSH, don’t launch into ecstatic prose over how great you feel about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

If it were me, I’d not worry too much about her motivations at this point. I do think she’s doing these things to make you happy because she recognizes that you’ve changed. She’s making fairly ‘safe’ changes to see if this is a ‘give and inch, they take a mile’ kind of deal. I really think your last MC session was very, very, very important. She heard you say that you were insecure about whether or not she still loves you. As a woman (a feeler) who loves you, that would speak down deep into her heart. I think this is her way of trying to reassure you that she’s still there and still trying in this marriage. What you can do to prevent backslides is give her gentle encouragement, acknowledgement, and appreciation – even though these ‘safe steps’ aren’t in the areas you’d MOST like her to change.

So, buckle up and prepare to be super, ultra supportive to your wife during her Mom’s surgery. Then concentrate on making the holidays happy and as stress free as possible (few heavy relationship talks) THEN prepare to get fired back up working on things after the New Year. Make thoughtful requests for easy affectionate things that she can provide to tide your Taker over during this time. Avoid making the holidays a ‘romantic statement’, instead concentrate on building up your family time, home and hearth, areas of your relationship. Those affectionate ties are REALLY important.

Mys

Hiya EL,

I've been thinking about posting some particular thoughts for a bit. It's another round of explaining what might be your wife's perspective on something that really bugs you.

In MC a couple of times your wife accused you of lying, and you got really upset and insisted you try very hard not to lie. You seemed to be feeling/thinking something along the lines of "how could she even think such a thing?"

That's what I want to talk about. I can see how she would think that because I've thought that about something you said more than once myself.

And I think your tendency to use grandstanding language is the culprit. Fortunately this has been improving -- keep it up.

And also an occasional lack of radical honesty, though this also seems to be improving over time.

One example of grandstanding language -- saying something along the lines of you "never pushed her" about wearing her ring. Well you have pushed her on it many times -- selfish demands are inherently pushy, and you've given out a number of them. Now you might use that phrasing meaning "but I never pushed her in that particular conversation", but without that clarifying addition, both your wife and I would probably be thinking "sheesh, what a lie".

Another example is when you took off your own ring for a bit and then started watching your wife to see how she would react. You posted here grumpily a number of times complaining about her lack of reaction. I was shocked when a bit later you claimed that your taking off your ring was all about you and had nothing to do with wanting to communicate anything to her or get a reaction from her. It sounded like an outrageous lie then and it still does now. I wasn't sure I followed your explanation of how it wasn't a lie, but your point seemed to be that in the moment you originally took off your ring, it was all about you. Since your posts made it clear that keeping your ring off very rapidly became focused on wanting a reaction from her, this struck me as an artful piece of sophistry at best, and definitely lacking in Radical honesty with yourself and your wife.

So I can see how your statement was intended to be honest and was not in itself a lie: in the moment you took off your ring it was simply an act of your own momentary despair and had nothing to do with getting a reaction. But simply stating that and stopping is not Radically Honest. Wanting to provoke a reaction was clearly a major factor through most of the time that you kept your ring off. Claiming it wasn't "the" reason or that it wasn't operating in the initial moment you took off your ring is, again, sophistry.

Now about the times in MC when you've been talking about your EN list: SF is at the top of the EN list. Your wife has said she's upset because she felt you pulled a bait and switch -- you told her family was most important, and now you're saying sex is most important. I can see why she'd say that. And I can see that you didn't lie. Family obviously is really important to you. And you're clear that sex is important to you. But your list of ENs isn't a list of what's most important to you, it's a list of what creates the strongest feelings in you of being in love, and it's ranked in that order. It's not ranked in the order of what's most important to you overall. It might help if you could explain this to your wife in MC and tell her you are terribly sorry for confusing her on this issue and very sorry for the shock she must have felt when it sounded like you were contradicting yourself.

I think it's also fair to explain that you're growing in sophistication in how you express what's important to you and what your feelings are in your marriage, so you do say thing differently now even when how you feel hasn't changed. But it goes along with that that your wife is undergoing the same change. You don't always want to cut her slack when she expresses herself differently now on an issue than she has in the past and you've complained that she wasn't fully honest. Maybe she was honest, but now she knows more ways to express herself, like you do. Maybe she wasn't fully honest because she couldn't figure out how to be fully honest, like you, and like you, she's getting better at expressing herself.

Hello Mys & MOS,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A good way to deal with this is to appreciate her for doing things that make you feel more secure and happy. Don’t over do it and be too effusive; a simple gesture (touching the ring, smiling and kissing her softly), or I really like it <appreciate it> that you’re wearing your ring. It makes me happy. (Then HUSH, don’t launch into ecstatic prose over how great you feel about it. )
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right and I am trying to do this because I do believe in rewarding the behavior you like. I just can't help in the back of my mind wondering if her doing these things she knows I would like, are going to come around later to bite me because it has been one of her habits to do this. I guess this is just kind of like my W needing to learn through time that I am not trying to control her and that I do trust her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If it were me, I’d not worry too much about her motivations at this point. I do think she’s doing these things to make you happy because she recognizes that you’ve changed. She’s making fairly ‘safe’ changes to see if this is a ‘give and inch, they take a mile’ kind of deal. I really think your last MC session was very, very, very important. She heard you say that you were insecure about whether or not she still loves you. As a woman (a feeler) who loves you, that would speak down deep into her heart. I think this is her way of trying to reassure you that she’s still there and still trying in this marriage. What you can do to prevent backslides is give her gentle encouragement, acknowledgement, and appreciation – even though these ‘safe steps’ aren’t in the areas you’d MOST like her to change.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, these are noticable and positive steps. She diserves credit for them. It has only been a few days so well see if she keeps it going. I know I am going to try very hard to keep things progressing. I have really been busy at work and last night and tonight I will not get home till very late. My W has been overly nice about all of this, as she always has been.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, buckle up and prepare to be super, ultra supportive to your wife during her Mom’s surgery. Then concentrate on making the holidays happy and as stress free as possible (few heavy relationship talks) THEN prepare to get fired back up working on things after the New Year. Make thoughtful requests for easy affectionate things that she can provide to tide your Taker over during this time. Avoid making the holidays a ‘romantic statement’, instead concentrate on building up your family time, home and hearth, areas of your relationship. Those affectionate ties are REALLY important.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, I am going to have a lot of stress at work through this time. I do not need extra stress at home, so your advice fits in nicely. I do have an MC appointment next Thursday. Then its Thanksgiving week and her mom's surgery. I do not know what I should expect or try to accomplish in this next MC session. On one side, I do not want to loose momentum, but on the other, I do not want to stress her out before her mom's big surgery week. However, she would have almost a week after this MC session before we went to see her mom. You see, we are going to see her mom for the holidays, then S and I are driving back home, while W stays with her mom for the better part of a week.


MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In MC a couple of times your wife accused you of lying, and you got really upset and insisted you try very hard not to lie. You seemed to be feeling/thinking something along the lines of "how could she even think such a thing?"

That's what I want to talk about. I can see how she would think that because I've thought that about something you said more than once myself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, but I feel bad that she thinks or feels that. I feel I actually am a pretty consistent person when it comes to my convictions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And I think your tendency to use grandstanding language is the culprit. Fortunately this has been improving -- keep it up.

And also an occasional lack of radical honesty, though this also seems to be improving over time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I am human and can accept my short comings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now about the times in MC when you've been talking about your EN list: SF is at the top of the EN list. Your wife has said she's upset because she felt you pulled a bait and switch -- you told her family was most important, and now you're saying sex is most important. I can see why she'd say that. And I can see that you didn't lie. Family obviously is really important to you. And you're clear that sex is important to you. But your list of ENs isn't a list of what's most important to you, it's a list of what creates the strongest feelings in you of being in love, and it's ranked in that order. It's not ranked in the order of what's most important to you overall. It might help if you could explain this to your wife in MC and tell her you are terribly sorry for confusing her on this issue and very sorry for the shock she must have felt when it sounded like you were contradicting yourself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is very interesting and a good distinction you draw. However, is not being loved the most important thing to everyone in a fundamental and philisophical way? Using this logic, would not a person's ENs be what is MOST important to them because these are the things that make someone feel loved and wanting to feel loved is very important to everyone (taking the chance at using a grandstanding word)? I do see how you are splitting the difference between the two, however, deep down to the root of a person, the desire to feel loved I believe has been cited as the most important thing in the human phsyche noted by Froyd.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it's also fair to explain that you're growing in sophistication in how you express what's important to you and what your feelings are in your marriage, so you do say thing differently now even when how you feel hasn't changed. But it goes along with that that your wife is undergoing the same change. You don't always want to cut her slack when she expresses herself differently now on an issue than she has in the past and you've complained that she wasn't fully honest. Maybe she was honest, but now she knows more ways to express herself, like you do. Maybe she wasn't fully honest because she couldn't figure out how to be fully honest, like you, and like you, she's getting better at expressing herself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can understand this and accept that change is a mutual thing in an M. If we all believe the first underlying principle in MB, "Whatever one spouse does ALWAYS has an EFFECT on their M no matter how small the action is." Therefore, if I choose to change, the M will change no matter what. This does not necessarily mean it will change the way I desire it to, but by the purest form of this first principle, the M WILL change.

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In MC a couple of times your wife accused you of lying, and you got really upset and insisted you try very hard not to lie. You seemed to be feeling/thinking something along the lines of "how could she even think such a thing?"

That's what I want to talk about. I can see how she would think that because I've thought that about something you said more than once myself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, but I feel bad that she thinks or feels that. I feel I actually am a pretty consistent person when it comes to my convictions.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you feel hurt. And that's absolutely fine. It's how you deal with feeling hurt that needs to change. In the past you've dealt with it by pointing fingers at your wife and insisting she must be wrong, instead of looking at the source of the problem in your own behavior.

If you actually want this to go away and never happen again, you need to address the problems in your own behavior. In the meantime, it's fine to feel hurt, and it's fine to respectfully say you feel hurt, but it's not fine to bluster about "how can you say such a thing".

Your last statement seems to me like kind of a non-sequitur, given what I've been saying, but I see how it isn't to you. Yes, I'd say you're pretty consistent about your convictions too. But I'd also say you've had serious lack of radical honesty problems when it comes to expressing your thoughts and motivations.

Hey guys,

We had a pretty good weekend this past couple of days. Sunday we both were not feeling the greatest and had a little argument that did not last past 45 seconds. Later I apologized to my W for our argument. She also apologized and noted that we both were not feeling very well. We kissed and made up.

One of my issues from the past that is included in my mistrust issues is that I would read my W's emails once in a while. This would obviously upset her when I did this. I believe I was looking for answers and examples that my W loved me and was true to me in some stupid way. Well, today I have a burning desire to look at her emails agian, for reasons I do not know. Maybe it is because of the upcoming trip that is about to happen, where she is going to spend a week away, because of her mom's surgery, where her "old" friends are. Maybe it is because she has recently changed her passwords and I can no longer read her emails and it is driving me a little crazy. I know that when I read her emails in the past, there never really was anything to prove to me she was anything but faithful to me. I believe this is my problem and I need to get a handle on it. Things between us do seem to be getting better. I love my W and I believe she loves me. We cuddled and had a short but nice talk about how we love each other and she said, "I am not going any where. I love you and am married to you." This was nice.

Why do I keep needing to search for re-assurence or look for something that is not there? I wish I did not feel this way. Is it a matter of self-confidence on my part? I just do not know, but in my mind I end up driving myself crazy and in turn cause myself to do something stupid that ultimately causes my W to loose faith and emotional trust in me. Help me to understand and work through this.

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We had a pretty good weekend this past couple of days. Sunday we both were not feeling the greatest and had a little argument that did not last past 45 seconds. Later I apologized to my W for our argument. She also apologized and noted that we both were not feeling very well. We kissed and made up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, sounds like it’s working as intended. Nothing will prevent you from having little spats here and there. The important thing is that they don’t spiral out of control and you kiss and make up. Good job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why do I keep needing to search for re-assurence or look for something that is not there? I wish I did not feel this way. Is it a matter of self-confidence on my part? I just do not know, but in my mind I end up driving myself crazy and in turn cause myself to do something stupid that ultimately causes my W to loose faith and emotional trust in me. Help me to understand and work through this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I’m going to pull a Dr. Phil on you. You’re doing this behavior because it gives you a pay off in some way. It’s like an addict with a drug; you’re looking for a reassurance fix. You have this desire to ‘check up on her’ in some dysfunctional way because it soothes your feelings of <what?, insecurity, panic, worry>. You realize it’s not a healthy way of managing those feelings but you are still powerfully attracted to doing it anyway.

So, the way to truly conquer those fears and feelings is to find a healthy alternative to managing them. So, what are some things you can do to manage those feelings in a healthy way? Trying to avoid dealing with them and ignoring them is unlikely to work. You need something that is an action (hint, use a verb) that will replace reading your wife’s emails.

Mys

EL,

First let me say that I believe that Baba has been giving you excellent advice. Wish I could say the same about your marriage counselor.

Don't read her e-mails! If you are to achieve permanent change, don't destroy all of your hard work by breaking the trust you have build thus far.

At some point you just have to let go of your own trust (perceived as controlling) issues and just let her be. Temptations and opportunities will always exist, at some point you will simply come to the realization that fidelity is a gift freely given. Besides, isn't what you want for her to freely choose to love and be faithful to you? And if that were not the case, why would you want her anyway?

Given all of the red flags you have raised with the business (been there done that) and having a son right out of the gate, I think you have done well to work on yourself.

But dude, you come across as weak and whiney. I really do believe you need more emotional distance, not less, from your wife. You hang on her every word constantly looking for validation, reassurance, etc. Ugh!. Was that the man she fell in love with?

I've noticed every time you create some space, you get a positive sign back from her.

Sorry, but I just don't get from all of the effort you put in, why it is such an issue for your wife to be physical. For your marriage counselor to blow it off is, in my mind, inexcusable. Really, does your wife need for you to be perfect to condesend to make love to you?

Know of any healthy marriages that didn't click in the bedroom? At some point she needs to contribute (you know this in your heart and it becomes the source of your frustration)to the marriage also. She has all the power.

Find the strong, self confident guy you were regardless of what your wife does or does not do and I do believe you will find what you are looking for.

Stop overanalyzing every little thing and projecting feelings she may or may not have. Jump into the hot tub when asked. Have fun. Develop your sense of self. If this doesn't work out, your gonna need it.

We haven't heard from you in a while, Extremely Lost. How are things?

Mys

Hey Mys,

Hello all. I have not been writting in a few days because I have just been incredibly busy at work. Thanks Mys for thinking about me.

This last Thursday we had an MC session. Basically it turned into being about my W and her dysfunctional family. My W's mom's surgery is coming up just after Thanksgiving and my W's brother is in all kinds of trouble. He is married with two kids and is about 24 years old. He keeps getting in trouble with the law (loosing DL, driving without a DL, missing court dates, spending nights in jail, not paying fines, abusing pain killers and other things, not showing up for his high paying construction job, kids (3 & 6) not getting to school, etc. etc. etc.) My W is being put in the middle of all of this from her dad and mom. My W is also being leaned on by her mom to help her through this surgery. So the whole session was talking about that. The next session is December 7th.

As far as we are doing, I am tired from work, we have been getting along ok. There is no change in the physical relationship at all. Things seem to have not really changed, however, there have been a few small instances that have caught my attention. For example, this last Wednesday my W went to her Bunco evening with the neighborhood girls. In the middle of her girl night, she called home to remind me about a show we had both wanted to watch. It felt could to have a direct example that my W was actually thinking about me. When we were in MC, I took one minute to try and discuss us. I mentioned this example. My W said, "I have always done those things, you are just noticing them now." Obviously I totally disagree with her conclusion, but I did not argue nor directly disagree with it to her or the MC. In fact, the MC said, "You need to tell your W when she does something that makes you feel really good." My W said, "He did." So all in all, how my W and I reacted towards each other was great in the MC session, but we did not really get through anything about us. So I feel that nothing really has changed and I am just buried at work, so I have not had every second to think about it.

I guess I am kind of following your suggestions Mys about getting through the Holidays and then try to move things further along. I am frustrated that we have not had a discussion about us or our M in about two and a half weeks. I do not know if we are moving forward or falling back. Is this normal to feel?

Anyway, this is where we are at.

I'll get through this hump and be able to write more in the near future.

Take care everyone,

EL

YOU say having the baby was the BEST thing in your and her lives. But does SHE feel that way?

I hate to keep hammering on this PTSD issue regarding the traumatic pregnancy and birth but really it could be the main reason she does not want sex much now. You are missing out if you do not at least explore this issue.

Or, you can simply wait about three more years and then see if she wants a little more sex then, for some reason.

Heh, I've watched you, EL, and baba go back and forth on this.

And you keep saying "but baba, you don't understand, my wife CHOSE to have the baby and LOVES the baby".

And I agree with baba, that for all your wife chose to have the baby as the best of the available opetions, and for all that she loves the baby dearly, it may well be that she is traumatized by the consequences to her life.

MOS said exactly what I was trying to say. It is nobody's fault about her possibly being traumatized by having that baby.

She wanted the child, you wanted the child, but the pregnancy and birth was not as she expected it to go.

Many woman after traumatic births "secretly blame" the husband for ever after. She may be blaming you even though it was not your fault and she wanted the baby and chose to have it.

You can research this.

What you want to do is ROOT OUT any hidden blame she might feel for you because of having the baby, the trauma, etc. And any hidden blame she may have against you now because you are open to her having ANOTHER baby!

If you are open to her having another baby and are not fighting actively against her having another one, this tells me you really do not understand at all the extent of her PTSD regarding the traumatic pregnancy and birth.

If you "did really understand" how it truly may have affected her then you would actively fight against her "ever" having to have another child and fight to get a vasectomy or get her a tubal.

I think she said that statement in counseling, "You want to keep me barefoot and pregnant" in response to your attitude that someday you might want her to have another baby.

And I bet she is ANGRY that you do not understand how awful that experiance was for her and how she cannot even be open and honest with you about how bad it is since after all, "She chose it and she wanted the baby"! So she has no right to complain.

In fact, what if she told you from the true bottom of her heart how TERRIBLE that pregnancy and birth was and how it was unexpectedly bad!

Could you accept this or would you try and shur her up by saying that "You wanted the baby, remember!"

Sometimes we want things NOT KNOWING how awful they will be or how they will ruin our bodies for life or how difficult and painful these things we want are.

Then, when the trauma of the truth hits us we may ask WHY DID I DO THIS! and try and understand our choices and why they turned out differently than we thought. Sure the baby is great to have but the pregnancy and birth and weight gain and tailbone problems and back problems SUCK! Big time! And are a permanent reminder of that sucky birth!

But perhaps NOONE will let her express herself about this.

1. Society says shut up about the terribleness of pregnancy and birth.

2. Her parents encouraged her having it and so she cannot tell them.

3. You do not want to hear about it.

4. She cannot allow herself to face the issue.

WHO IN THE WORLD CAN SHE CONFIDE IN without fear!

She needs to get this out and get counseling for the PTSD and be able to tell you how truly awful it was. She may need to scream and cry and BLAME YOU for the pregnancy and birth "even though it was not your fault"! (just to get out her resentment of you)

You can make light of her pain (like most men do, in fact most men are worse than you, they think thier women are but "cows" to bear thier young)

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

It's great to hear from you. I understand your frustration about talking about your wife's mother's surgery, but I'd like to reframe that a little bit for you. You say it's not a 'marriage issue' but I beg to differ. This is your wife's MOTHER. It's true that you're not addressing the issues between the two of you (or, specifically your list of EN's which is very important), but your marriage also encompasses your life togther. Major life events fall into that category.

That said, I'm glad to hear from you. I hope your work schedule lightens soon and you can enjoy some of the holidays.

Mys

Well! While I have been away, I can see that there has been a healthy campaign against the evil men in society today who are stupid enough to listen to their women and believe them when they tell them they want a child. This is all in very poor taste and is totally a DJ towards me and most men out there. Come on people, practice MB towards each other.

What I will say towards these acusations and mis-representations is:

1) We accidentally got pregnant. My W (then girl friend) was happy about being pregnant, but scared because we just started dating. She was unsure of our future and if I would be the kind of guy that would just walk away (like I said, we were just getting to know each other). One of the things she told me before she found out she was pregnant was that doctors had told her that she may not be able to get pregnant due to some pre-cancerous cells she had from her past.

2) When we got pregnant, we were both shocked. I understood my only allowable choices were about staying with her or not, and to me this was not a choice because I love her and knew she was and still is the most wonderful woman I have ever met. I assure you I was not going to force a decision either way about having the baby because, as I had told her several times, it is her body. I had my preferences for sure, but I also knew, it is totally up to the woman that had to go through a pregnancy. I did not know much about a pregnancy, but I knew enough that it would not be fair for me to impose my choice on this subject.

3) My W willingly chose to have our baby, and I am thankful for her choice. Now, having said this, I do agree that she got more than she probably signed up for in the beginning. The pregnancy was traumatic in many multiples of ways. First, it came as a surprixe from our first weekend we spent together, while she was on "the pill." Second, her closest girlfriend at the time was also pregnant and decided to abort her pregnancy. Third, she kept working two jobs, while I was living out of state and working. She had to quite smoking immediately - cold turkey. While she started to show, many people she thought were her friends (including her girl friend who aborted) really showed their "true" colors and did not treat her very well. From her second month forward, she had psyatica (sp) issues with the nerve that ran down her back and leg. This nerve issue would cause her a lot of pain and some days she could not get out of bed. Finally, at 5 months pregnant, I had changed jobs and rented an apartment for us in a different state from where I was living and she was living. She moved in and was 4 hours away from family and stopped working her two jobs. She did not know anyone in this new state, and I had to travel with this new job, although we had both agreed that I needed to take this job. She is a very smart woman and sought out a large amount of material about being pregnant and having a baby. She studied as many things as she could get her hands on and quickly became an expert about what she was going through. I was pretty much the normal and ignorant guy who tried to do whatever I could to help comfort her, but not much worked. I helped get the baby's room ready, although she insisted on doing a large amount of it on her own. Throughout the pregnancy, my W was uncomfortable and gained 90 lbs from her thin frame of 110 lbs. One of the last Doctor visits leading to the birth, the Doctor put my W on a scale and then made an Oinking sound! To this day my W brings this up to people and says I laughed when the Doctor did this. I truly do not remember my laughing. However, I can remember my shock at the Doctor saying this. I do not actually think I laughed, but my W feels as though I did, so I will not argue her perception. Then, I cam home from work one day to find my W having contractions. She did not call my cell or page me even though we had a pager just for this occasion. She said she did not want to bother me at work. When I timed the contractions, they were seven minutes apart. I called the hot line they give you and we were told to bring her in. At around 3:00 AM, her labor stalled and she was about 3 cms. The hospital sent her home and her mother showed up that night. One week later (with my W having contractions the whole week and two different doctor's appointments) her water finally broke and we went back to the hospital to have our baby.

4) The baby's birth was also traumatic. Our S was not born for 15 more hours. Even though my W's water had broke, she was not dialating probably due to scar tissue from her pre-cancer cells earlier in her life. The hospital pushed a large amount of Patosin (sp) which made my W pretty uncomfortable. She broke her tail bone delivering the baby. While in the hospital recovering from the birth, we had to deal with horrible survey people that were not part of the hospital, and were only interested in us because we were not married yet.

5) Our son was extremely demanding from the first day we brought him home. He demanded to be fed every hour and a half. My W decided she wanted to breast feed because it would be healthier for our baby. It turned out, he would only eat from her and refused every bottle known to man. I tried and tried to get him to take a bottle. The doctors told us our S could go for 12 hours without eating, so we planned a Mexican style stand off. One weekend day, my W left and did whatever she could to stay away. I tried everything. Our S was relentless, he cried and threw a tantrum the entire time. I even tried to put a bottle through my shirt! I was desperate! Basically, after 11 hours, our S won. My W fed him and so it went for almost a year and a half. We still tried bottles but did not have any luck. Our S remained in his pattern of waking up every hour and a half and wanting to be fed. I tried to get up, but he would not take a bottle. This pattern went on until my W could no longer physically get up out of bed. She was so sleep deprived that she could not get out of bed, and there was truly nothing I could do, but try to take care of our S as best I could without being able to really feed him.

So, yes, it was not easy for my W or for me. We did have a difficult time through all of this, and I am still thankful for our S, who is the most wonderful little person. My W does feel our S is the best thing in our lives, although he goes through phases as do all youngsters. Now, maybe my W, deep down holds some regrets to what happened to her body and her change in life. Just maybe she blames me a little or a lot for the negative parts of the change in her life. I have asked her many times and in many different ways and she cannot bring herself to tell me that this is true. She always tells me that she has no regrets and does not feel as though I have ruined her life. So what am I to do? Obviously, on the selfish side of things (since I am being pushed to examine people's selfish sides), I have also had to change everything in my life. YEs, I have not gone through the pain or the process of being pregnant or giving birth and I will never try to compare anything I go through to that because nothing can compare to it. However, I am also human and have gone through extreme changes. The one thing I wish is that through all of this change, I wish my W, her personality and feelings towards me could have remained constant. I am sure my W feels the same way, although my feelings for her have always remained the same, I know she feels my personality definitely changed for the worse through controling behavior and jealousy.

You guys give me some good advice as to how you think I need to go about helping my W deal with her potential inner feelings about the pregnancy and birth and I will give it great consideration. My W was diagnosed with PTSD by the second round of MCs we went to. After a year, this MC felt my W no longer exhibited these characteristics.

I have tried to discuss this with her and get no where. She obviously feels nothing is wrong and I continue to "push" her away when I seek answers or show a desire to try to "help."


Mys -

I agree with you, dealing with my W's issues with her mom's surgery is a part of our M. I am trying to be very supportive. I must say this weekend, we had some issues that definitely make me feel as though we slipped back a little.

Friday night, we were at a neighbors playing cards. There were about 10 neighbors. In the middle of the socializing, I turned to my W and started to say something to her. Half way through my first sentence to her, she turned and started talking to someone else. It was like I was not there. This really hurt me, but it was not the time to bring it up. Later that night, at home, I mentioned to her about the incident and how it hurt me. She said, "I probably did not hear you." However, I know at the time, she was reacting to what I was saying before she turned and talked to someone else. She said she was sorry. I let it drop.

Then Sunday night, I was feeling pretty frustrated with feeling as though our M has not progressed much. I could not help saying something to my W. I began with asking her, "Honey, over the last two weeks have I done anything that made you feel more emotionally distant or more emotionally closer to me?" She was watching TV and kept looking at the TV and said, "I don't know." This really bothered me because of everything we have been through and are trying to improve. So I said, "Honey, I understand that you feel you do not know, but like we have discussed several times, I need to know when the things I do are good or not good for you. I feel like I am guessing a lot without knowing if efforts I am putting in are worthwhile or not." She said, "So my answer was not good enough for you. What do you want me to say? Some things were good and some things were bad." I said, "I would like for you to tell me when I do something that makes you feel more emotionally close to me or more emotionally distant. I need to know exactly what was good and what was bad." She said, "So now you need praise and constant reassurance, when these are things you should be doing anyway?" I said, "I am not looking for praise, but I am looking to try and understand how my behavior affects your feelings towards me." She just kept staring at the TV. Out of frustration I said, "Honey, I am not your enemy. I am in love with you. I am not going away. One of these days you are going to realize that you are going to have to deal with me." She let out a sigh and said, "Whatever!"

I went outside and sat for a while trying to collect my thoughts. I was so frustrated. After 15 minutes the show she was watching was over. She came outside for a smoke and said, "What are you doing out here?" I said, "I am just sitting out here trying to think. I do not know what to do. I am sorry for saying some of the things I said to you in the way that I said them; but, I am also extremely frustrated because I feel as though our relationship is stagnant and there seems to be nothing I can do to help get it unstuck." She sat there for a minute and then said, "I am going inside, it is cold."

I went back inside and said, "I am hurt that you did not have anything to say about what I said." She said, "What did you want me to say? You said you were sorry for how you said things to me." I said, "If you said to me that you were concerned with our relationship because you felt like it was stagnant and did not know how to help it along, I would certainly feel compelled to respond and try to work towards improving things." She just sat there. Then she said, "I am beginning to think that this is typical. Its about my upcoming trip. You always try and pick a fight with me just before I am on a trip alone. I can just forget the whole thing and come back with you and S." I said, "That is not fair. This has nothing to do with your upcoming trip. I am completely fine with your trip. I certainly was not looking to pick a fight with you. I would prefer to never fight with you." I let things drop.

Later on when it was time to go to bed, I hugged her and she hugged me back. I asked her, "Honey, what can I do to have you feel like you want to hug me without my hugging you first? This is truly a feeling I miss." She said, "I don't know, but she hugged me back caringly (more than normal). We went to bed. After an hour of laying there stairing at her back to me, I realized I could not sleep. I went downstairs and was wide awake all night. She woke up and came down stairs and said, "What are you doing?" I said, "I cannot sleep." She said, "So now you cannot sleep!" I said, "really, I can't sleep. I am absolutely wide awake. I tried and I almost fell asleep upstairs and now I am more awake than ever." She went back to bed after coming over to me and giving me a quick kiss.

So what do you think? I am certainly feeling as though we are miles backwards from where we got to. I am not looking forward to what I will feel as a lonely holiday season as my W will be occupied with her mom over and after Thanksgiving and then most likely remain stagnant through the new year. This is difficult for me because remaining stagnant causes me to feel as though we are slipping back into "everything is acceptable as long as I keep my mouth shut and disregard my ENs" mode.

Take Care,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> Well! While I have been away, I can see that there has been a healthy campaign against the evil men in society today who are stupid enough to listen to their women and believe them when they tell them they want a child.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? Where was this?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

This is all in very poor taste and is totally a DJ towards me and most men out there. Come on people, practice MB towards each other.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, it would be a DJ if anyone had said anything remotely like that. Sounds like you're the one DJing though. If you went back and rewrote what you wanted to say with exact factual truth and and absolutely no grandstanding language, would it look any different? Or are you talking about posts/threads I haven't seen?

EL, no one is blaming you for her choice to have the baby. Or any man.

But the underlying PTSD is maybe causing her to resent you. Sounds like this feeling is just one of many she is not expressing to you for some reason.

All these unexpressed feelings will cause your marriage to weaken.

This is all I was saying.

Is it not a DJ to assume my W is suffering from PTSD?

EL

I know guys, you are trying to help. I am in a peak of one of my cycles where I feel helpless in my M and that it is not getting, nor will it get better.

EL

Ah, I'm learning here how you and your wife get into some of your fights.

You posted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well! While I have been away, I can see that there has been a healthy campaign against the evil men in society today who are stupid enough to listen to their women and believe them when they tell them they want a child. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said I didn't see anyone saying that anywhere and asked you where you saw it. Since you were complaining about people DJing you, I pointed out that since I couldn't find what you refer to above, it sounds like you're the one DJing.

Instead of answering my question about what you said, you're talking about something else you're calling a DJ, and basically using other ways to try to change the subject. I feel pretty much zero interest in trying to talk to someone who behaves this way, and I expect your wife feels the same way sometimes.

You cannot hear what I have been saying....you keep trying to impose your own feelings onto it.