Hello Guys,

Well, yesterday my W and I had a little fight. This time of the year is extremely busy for me. I had to work yesterday (8:00 AM - 7:30 PM) but managed to not work on Saturday.

I promised our S we could decorate our tree yesterday. This is an interesting story. You see, every year (before I met my W) I would get a real tree. My W is really into low maintenance things and therefore, put her foot down and we have only had fake trees since we have been together. My W can be pretty anal at times with how she wants things done, so we ended up with two trees because she wanted what she felt was the perfect tree. So we have the tree that goes in the front window, which my W puts up and decorates herself to have it perfect. She does not want either my S or I to put one thing on this tree because it turns out to be put in the "wrong" place. This is too stuffy for me for Christmas and has been a sore spot each year. This year so the deal that I have been able to negotiate was that she does her own tree and then we have a tree in the family room that we do as a family and it can be done however it turns out from our S putting things wherever he wants.

Well, my W got her tree up a week ago and put the family room tree up, with lights and stringed things and left it at that, which to me is part of putting the tree together. Then last night when I got home our S was excited to put the tree together. My W said, "Aks your dad." I was on the phone when he asked and I said, "hold on a minute and I'll be right there." Well, when I got off the phone, my W was already digging through the decorations and starting to seperate things. I said, "I thought you told our S to wait for dad." She said, "These have to be sorted into piles because there are some decorations I do not want on this tree." This irritated me because I had already given in on her "own" tree and now she was trying to "control" this tree. So, I said, "I thought we could do this tree how ever we wanted." She got mad and got up and said, "fine, you do the whole thing!" and then she left. I said to her, "I thought we could do this together and that how it turned out was ok." She said, "there are some ornaments that I do not think should go on the tree and some are fragile and I should unpack them." This bothered me because now she was saying only she can unpack the ornaments. I said, "Can we please do this as a family?" She came back and took all the bows and said, "I will put all the bows on the tree to get them in the right place. Last year, a lot of the ornaments ended up on the bottom of the tree and I do not want that to happen this year." They ended up on the bottome of the tree because our S was three years old and the bottom is where he wanted to put them. I thought this was ok because they were where he could see them and enjoy them. I do not want my S to have an anal christmas and grow up being uptight. I became unhappy because my W could not help trying to control decorating this tree. The funny thing is that she usually says I am the controlling person, but I think I am starting to see that in reality, it is completely opposite. I am starting to look back at things and realize that the reasons she has gotten upset for me when she says I was controlling, is because I was trying to take some control back. My W used some classic psychology on me last night. In the middle of my trying to discuss things, she first got angry and then started to yell at me. Then she turned around and accused me of yelling at her, which I made sure I was not. Then when I was not doing things how she wanted, she stopped participating and said, "do it all yourself." Then after my S and I started to decorate the tree without her and I had said, "honey, I am sorry you are upset with me, I did not intend to upset you, I really wish we could decorate this tree together as a family. If you do not want to participate, that is your choice." My W then said, "you even had to ruin my favorite holiday." In the end she put some decorations on the tree but pouted all night. She went up to bed and I did dishes that were left out from the night before and she did not touch them all day while I was working.

I went to bed. I said, "good night." She said, "good night. Whats wrong?" I said, "nothing" because it really was not worth getting into, especially in our bed, which I am trying to not have arguments or discussions that she will feel are negative in our bedroom anymore because this creates negative connotations that become associated with our bedroom. I was fed up anyway and was not in a good place to have a discussion anymore. I do not feel I was dishonest by not having a discussion that could only turn out to be negative.

Anyway, I think it is interesting to consider that perhaps my W has been the more dominant controlling person in the relationship. It is a classic that if I challenge her, as a tack she just folds and says something like, "whatever, you just do what ever." Then she will walk away; or, she will come up with something to illustrate that I am somehow way controlling such as "I have to go to the bathroom, am I allowed to do this?" or "I want to go have a ciggarette, do I have your permission to do this?" She has learned that these types of responses to being challenged immediately put me on the defensive because they are designed to make me feel like I am a controlling person if I do not constantly submit to what she wants to do.

Am I crazy to feel like I actually am the one who is being controlled? I feel like I am being abused or manipulated. I was even willing to believe that I was the controlling one because my W would tell me and others that I am. Neighbors have even started to ask me things in certain situations, which has helped me to start seeing things in this light.

For example, this past Saturday night, we had some neighbors over and my W's computer is causing an issue with the phone line and will some times not hangup the line, which causes our home phone to appear busy. The neighbors, W and I are sitting around downstairs when my W wanted to make a phone call. She realized that the phone line was not working and asked me to go and unplugg the computer phone line from the wall and to make sure I leave it unplugged. I went and did this. When I got back my W says, in front of the neighbors, "did you leave it unplugged?" I said, "yes I unplugged it." She said in a raised voice, "yes, but did you leave it unplugged instead of plugging it back in?" I said, "yes, I left it unplugged."

It just so happens that these neighbors that were over are a couple that were really having hard times in their M and the guy confided last year in me and the woman confided in my W. They have been going to several kinds of therapy and do seem to be getting on better than my W and I. I can see this when we are around them and I get a little jealous because I am happy for them and sad for us. Anyway, the girls go to get dinner for all of us (their kids were over). The guy and I stay with the kids. Earlier that night my W showed off new bedroom furniture that we had recently purchased. When the women were gone, my friend asked if much had changed with the lack of SF in our M. I told him "no" and he asked me, "do you think that W buying all this new furniture is a way that she is compensating for problems in your relationship?" This caught me off guard and got me thinking.

Earlier in the year we built a patio on the back of our home, although I really dreamed of a deck and my W had told me in the past she would agree with a deck. But when it came time to do something on the back of our house, she got her patio and when I even tried to suggest changes to her over all layout, she became upset and angry with me. I gave in and she gave in slightly. So now I here the, "we did what you wanted on the patio," which is not true at all. One of her agreements with the patio (used to make me feel better about having a patio instead of a deck) is that she recommended and encouraged that I could have a built in grill and where on the patio I could have it. A couple of months ago, we were out on our patio and the subject of the grill came up and I was excited about it and started talking about it and she said, "we never agreed to having it built in and where it would go." I said, "yes we did." She said, "no we did not, we talked about it and through some ideas out but I never agreed with it." This really got me upset.

When our patio was finished and my W showed our neighbors around, one of the guys says to me, "Don't you say 'no' to your W?" My W used to be very practical and economical. Now she has the best car in the neighborhood, the best furniture, the best patio, the best yard etc. etc. etc.......

After getting comments from a couple of different neighbors, I am starting to see things in a slightly different light. Do you guys think I am wrong or over reacting? I do not wish to portray my W in a bad or negative way. Do you think I have actually been blind to the way things really are?

Something I talked about with Mys last week was that I did not feel like buying my W really grand Christmas gifts. Mys told me that she did not understand why I would. Basically, I have always been very generous with my W. For Christmas, B-days, Mothers Day, Anniversaries or whatever, I have always given my W grand gifts because I love her and want to give her the best I can. This is one of the reasons it kind of hurt, when for my B-day she gave me a pillow.

What do you guys think? Gifts never mattered too much to me, the thought and consideration behind them matters more. Do you think I could have possibly spoiled her too much and now I am just paying for this? I do not know and am not sure of all this and am looking for some other POVs out there to help me gain a more well rounded perspective. All I would like for X-mas is to be physically intimate with my W. I would be happy if that is all I got. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

I’d like to briefly comment on the expectations issue before we talk about manipulation, control, and being assertive.

I do think that your expectations are causing quite a lot of the problems between you and your wife.

The reason that your expectations cause a problem is not because you HAVE them, it’s because of the way you MANAGE them.

I really don’t feel like talking about imaginary pets, so I hope you don’t mind if I come back to the issue of the phone calls. I don’t think that your expectations, wants, or preferences are unreasonable or bad. I really don’t.

I don’t doubt that your feelings were hurt because of the way you experienced your wife’s actions.

There are a couple of problems with that scenario. One is the way you BOTH (you AND your wife) handled the situation. From your wife’s comments at the MC last week, it appears that you stumbled into a solution that neither of you were enthusiastic about. You ended up in the opposite of a POJA.

I think that she felt pressured to call you because she knew it was important to you. And, you felt uncared for because she seemed reluctant to talk to you. Both of you didn’t really want to explicitly talk about the problem, so you both just ‘winged it’ and ‘did the best you could’ fighting between your Takers and your Givers. You both tacitly agreed to do this in order to avoid the conflict that would have arisen if you had addressed this issue directly. As a result, you both were pretty unenthusiastic about what happened.

Hindsight is 20/20 so it’s easy NOW to see that you two should have negotiated this before you left. Trying to negotiate it while she was there and under even more stress would have been much, much more difficult. In the future, this is one area you might be more sensitive to discussing before either one of you leaves town – in a moment of calm. Or, an even better suggestion would be to do a post mortem and figure out a strategy NOW while it’s still fresh in your mind about what should happen NEXT time.

But, not talking about the issue is only part of the problem. The other part is in how you frame your expectations (at least how you frame them here). I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that you use a similar strategy and framing when you try to discuss issues with your wife. One reason I didn’t push for you to resolve this issue while she was with her mother is because of the way you were framing the issue to explain your rationale here, on this board. I didn’t get the impression you were really interested in having a discussion oriented around negotiation so much as a discussion in which you enforced a boundary. Part of my test for ‘are you ready for negotiation’ is asking yourself the question how can I help my spouse help me be enthusiastic about NOT getting what I want in this issue? I wanted to see you step forward with ideas for how it could be OK for you not to hear from your wife by phone for the week! I rarely detect a willingness on your part to negotiate away from what you ‘want’ but rather you tend to entrench yourself in terms such as “a normal loving family would get’ or “this is how I would behave”. You can’t truly negotiate until you are 100% willing to give up what you’re negotiating about and accept just and fair compensation. If there is no possible way your spouse can ‘win’ her way in the issue then it is not a negotiation, it’s enforcing a boundary. Please notice that I said ‘fair and just’ compensation. That means that your Taker is satisfied with the deal – whatever that might take. At the same time, you have to be willing to provide whatever ‘fair and just’ compensation is requested if YOU happen to ‘win’ the issue.

Extremely Lost, your expectations get in your way because you use such grandiose and dramatic language to frame them – even to yourself. Take a step back for a moment and think about whether or not a couple of phone calls is really a true indication of love in someone’s heart? Do you really think it’s fair to equate the two things? And, even if it is fair, does it lead you towards negotiation (being able to give up the issue) or away from negotiation and towards a boundary?

If you wade into a discussion using the big guns of “If you REALLY loved me you’d… “ and “Everyone else who is NORMAL would… “ or even Nine out of ten experts agree…. I think it’s little wonder that your wife doesn’t want to have the discussion with you. Suddenly your preferences aren’t on the same level playing field anymore – it’s escalated into a conflict between moral right and moral wrong. What’s wrong with “I’m asking you to call because I’d really like to hear from you. But, if you’re not OK with that, let’s figure something else out.”

After all, isn’t “I’d really like to hear from you” just as valid as “any normal loving relationship would have these phone calls?” It certainly is much harder to argue about.

I suppose what I’m trying to say is that you appear to play very hard ball when it comes to negotiating. It doesn’t come across as open negotiation at all. It comes across as ‘how can I convince my spouse that I’m right (of course) and that she SHOULD comply with what I want because..it’s the right, moral, and loving thing to do.” You list so many reasons that she’s wrong about her opinion that I really think she often just gives up and capitulates to your arguments without even trying to get any of her needs met. And, that, my friend explains the trouble you have with your agreements. Of COURSE she’s not invested in them – she only agreed so you’d stop telling her how wrong and unloving she is! OF COURSE she doesn’t want to broach the discussion with you – it only leads to you telling her that she doesn’t love you, acts abnormally, and is inconsistent in what she wants (wants you to call while she doesn’t)! THAT HURTS!!!

But, you’re not the only one who knows how to play that game, are you? She plays it just as well, doesn’t she? You don’t want to bring things up with her because then you get to hear how you’re manipulative, a sex fiend, controlling, unsupportive, and generally ineffective at meeting her needs. So, you find yourself capitulating and ‘agreeing’ to do things that are against your better interest because it’s painful to you to hear all those things about yourself. It’s better to give up a little bit of something in order to not be thought of in those unflattering terms.

The bottom line is: You both do it. You’re both very, very good at it. It’s a very destructive cycle.

I can almost hear you saying ”I’m willing to stop if she does! How do I get her to stop?!

Well, there are a couple of things that I can see you doing to help the situation. First, I really think you need to stop over analyzing things and making disrespectful judgments. Take this Christmas tree situation, what did you do to try and make this an attractive activity that she’d be enthusiastic about? Oh sure, she said some things that rubbed you the wrong way, so you just jumped right in there to make sure she knew you were right and to preserve your idea of how things ‘should be.’ Can you see the irony of you both fighting over how things ‘should be’ concerning something like a Christmas tree? What bad things happen if the bows are managed ‘correctly’ but the ornaments are too low? What bad things happen if fragile ornaments are kept in a special place and brought out in a few years as a rite of passage? What did YOU do to focus on her desires? Instead you asserted that you “Wanted her to participate in this family activity.” Then made it clear that participation meant she had to do it YOUR way and to YOUR idea of what a non-anal Christmas tree should be like. And, now, she gets to wear the labels of manipulative and controlling, too!

*sighs*

Let’s rewrite this and make your actions match your words. Your words were “Can we please do this as a family.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This irritated me because I had already given in on her "own" tree and now she was trying to "control" this tree. So, I said, "I thought we could do this tree how ever we wanted." She got mad and got up and said, "fine, you do the whole thing!" and then she left. I said to her, "I thought we could do this together and that how it turned out was ok." She said, "there are some ornaments that I do not think should go on the tree and some are fragile and I should unpack them." This bothered me because now she was saying only she can unpack the ornaments. I said, "Can we please do this as a family?" She came back and took all the bows and said, "I will put all the bows on the tree to get them in the right place. Last year, a lot of the ornaments ended up on the bottom of the tree and I do not want that to happen this year." They ended up on the bottome of the tree because our S was three years old and the bottom is where he wanted to put them. I thought this was ok because they were where he could see them and enjoy them. I do not want my S to have an anal christmas and grow up being uptight. I became unhappy because my W could not help trying to control decorating this tree. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see how every thing of ‘value’ she tried to contribute was immediately dismissed as contrary to the spirit of what YOU were trying to do? Ideally, shouldn’t doing something as a family be a blend of what you value and what she values? Ideally, shouldn’t that tree be a mix of chaotic decorations and very nicely placed bows? If you persist in telling her that her contributions are unwanted, unwarranted, controlling, invalid, and wrong (through words or expressions), then asking her to do something with you seems particularly pointless.

Let me put it this way. If you want me to participate in something then you either have to be very clear about my role or let me present my ideas. If you want me there just to smile prettily and nod at you – affirming your great ideas – that’s fine if you tell me in advance. I’ll choose to do it or I won’t. But if you want my ACTIVE participation then you better DARN WELL be able to handle my opinion GRACIOUSLY when I give it. Otherwise, just don’t ask me. Things will go smoother. Really.

So, that’s how YOU, Extremely Lost, contributed to make that situation. SHE definitely contributed, also. She walked away. She refused to engage you. Oh, and she certainly wasn’t open to your ideas about how things should be, either. (I don’t want you to think I’m just being hard on you. I absolutely do recognize hat you didn’t cook this stew up all by your own self.) I will say this, though; you invited her into this activity and labeled it a ‘family’ activity so I do think that the onus was on you to truly make it a family activity. If you really only wanted EL and son do a Christmas tree, then you should have had fun with that and left her to her own devices. Then if she ASKED to participate, you’d have had some justification for laying down some “well, if you’re willing to let us make the decisions… “ type rules.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I went to bed. I said, "good night." She said, "good night. Whats wrong?" I said, "nothing" because it really was not worth getting into, especially in our bed, which I am trying to not have arguments or discussions that she will feel are negative in our bedroom anymore because this creates negative connotations that become associated with our bedroom. I was fed up anyway and was not in a good place to have a discussion anymore. I do not feel I was dishonest by not having a discussion that could only turn out to be negative. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next time try: “I’m somewhat disappointed and upset but I’m really not ready to talk about it right now. I’d really like to talk about it with you tomorrow, though.”

Anyway, now let’s talk about being assertive and negotiating and how you can change the dynamic without worrying about ‘educating’ your wife on all the things that she’s doing wrong.

First, Extremely Lost, I’d really like you to start training yourself to think of what things make you enthusiastic about enduring ‘whatever is driving you crazy.’ So, for example, if you could have thought of some requests you could have made which would have alleviated those ‘not cared for feelings’ from not getting a phone call. I want you to think long and hard about what things you’re willing to GET in return for GIVING UP some of the ‘issues’ in your marriage.

Here are a few starter examples…
- You’re willing to cheerfully and enthusiastically support your wife’s participation in council meetings in exchange for a date night.
- You’re willing to agree to change your phone calling habits as long as they apply equally (if she doesn’t have to call each night, neither do you) and that you can agree in advance when you’ll communicate and stick to that. In addition, you’d always like to at least have contact information.
- You’re willing to accept that you aren’t having regular satisfying sexual relations as long as a dialogue about your needs in that area can be opened for honest and frank discussion.

And, you still haven’t really crystallized your message for your MC counseling. I gave you some ideas but I haven’t seen thoughts on those yet.

Extremely Lost, I’m not trying to vilify you. Really, I’m not. I know how hard it is to maintain your composure when someone is pushing your buttons. But, if you stand back and say “I can’t do this until she stops…” then I’m afraid there is nothing anyone here can do for you. We can’t make her stop. We can’t help her realize what she’s not ready to face – and neither can you. You can develop some strategies to cope, though. Part of it is continuing to be assertive and not give up and walk away from conflict because you don’t like her messages. Another is to learn not to take the bait that’s dangled in front of your nose. I know it’s hard not to be defensive; but it’s going to be a necessary skill you’ll have to develop to deal with this situation.

The biggest persistent problem that is holding you back is your penchant for disrespectful judgments. I don’t really know what value they hold to you. I have a very hard time believing that they make you feel better about the situation. Is there anything I can say to you that will convince you to give them up.. just put them down and walk away from them? Maybe you think it’s scary to do that, but what MOS and My Alias and even LFC have been trying to tell you is that it’s less scary when you do that. I hope you decide to give that a try.

You are in my thoughts today, Extremely Lost. As always, I’m wishing you and your family the very best.

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Something I talked about with Mys last week was that I did not feel like buying my W really grand Christmas gifts. Mys told me that she did not understand why I would. Basically, I have always been very generous with my W. For Christmas, B-days, Mothers Day, Anniversaries or whatever, I have always given my W grand gifts because I love her and want to give her the best I can. This is one of the reasons it kind of hurt, when for my B-day she gave me a pillow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think a grand Christmas gesture is out of place with your message of “I’m unhappy and we need to work on this!”

Like I said, don’t be punitive, but going all out seems awfully … inconsistent and almost feels fake. I think a modest, but thoughtful gift that reflects your hope for your future would make a lot more sense.

But then, 9 times out of 10, I’d prefer a thoughtful, modest gift, anyway. Actually, Extremely Lost, this would drive you nuts but I prefer to negotiate and POJA my gifts. I hate surprises. At the very least, I like to provide a price range and list of suggestions to follow. If he steps outside those, he needs to be very confident that it’s something I’ll like/love/appreciate. Generally, I truly do appreciate it more when I can have what I ask for instead of a ‘surprise.’

Mys

Hello Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There are a couple of problems with that scenario. One is the way you BOTH (you AND your wife) handled the situation. From your wife’s comments at the MC last week, it appears that you stumbled into a solution that neither of you were enthusiastic about. You ended up in the opposite of a POJA. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are right. I am concerned about saying anything because even with the best intentions and most careful wording, I still seem to generate negative responses from my W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> how can I help my spouse help me be enthusiastic about NOT getting what I want in this issue? I wanted to see you step forward with ideas for how it could be OK for you not to hear from your wife by phone for the week! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To be honest, I actually would not be as sensitized to this if we were in a happy M. I do see that I am being more critical than I normally would be in a good relationship because I am trying to disect things to fix them on their basic levels because my entire World is shattered. I feel stupid and retarded because I did not realize I had been communicating poorly for years. I did not realize I had trust issues and the way I would act sometimes helped me to feel more comfortable about them, but hurt things further. I feel really stupid because I do not see the DJs as easily as all of you guys. You ask me why I hold onto using DJs, well, I am not, I just do not see DJs as DJs and appear to be blind to them. I am partially color blind and I cannot explain to you how frustrating it is at times when you are reminded of this and realize there is no way you can see the World as most people do. This is how I feel about DJs. I have trouble realizing I am about to say a DJ because I do not realize its a DJ. I realize the more obvious ones, but the subtle ones are where my problem lies. I think a lot of people here are making an incorrect assumption that I realize all of the DJs, but continue to use them. I promise you this is not the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Extremely Lost, your expectations get in your way because you use such grandiose and dramatic language to frame them – even to yourself. Take a step back for a moment and think about whether or not a couple of phone calls is really a true indication of love in someone’s heart? Do you really think it’s fair to equate the two things? And, even if it is fair, does it lead you towards negotiation (being able to give up the issue) or away from negotiation and towards a boundary?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, and as a whole, a couple of phone calls either way does not totally mean someone loves you. However, when my tank is already running on fumes and these extremely small things are about all I have to look forward to anymore, I feel like the World comes to an end when they are missing. This is the problem with the "spiralling out of control" situation. You first start loosing, what you consider to be the major parts of a happy relationship and you try to figure out why and how to get them back. Meanwhile you try to maintain that your partner definitely still loves you, even though you now wonder if they do because they are not meeting your most important needs. In order to help yourself convince yourself that they still do love you, you hold onto the smaller things that they still do, even thought these smaller things normally would not be enough to make you happy. Then one day these smaller things start to dissappear and you panic because they were all you felt you had left, and you find yourself questioning any love you thought your partner had for you. Then your partner gets upset because you are making a big deal out of what they feel are little things. The real problem is that you are both right. Then your partner starts to feel "crowded" and under a micro-scope because these little things (as some are lost) become very important to you. This causes your partner to feel like you are not the person they once knew, and in fact you are not because your needs are truly starved. This makes you feel awful when you hear them say something like this because you know you are still you and still would very much like to have the relationship before the nose dive occured and that you are still capable of doing this if your partner could do it as well. You become angry towards your partner for making you out to feel like some bad person you really are not. Your partner is angry because you have changed and come across to them as someone they would now rather be away from. It is difficult to end the spiral.

If one of you happens to realize what is going on, which is very difficult because you both become so pre-occupied with protecting yourselves from something that is not really there in the first place (due to one of you acting a certain way because of the situation you have found yourself in for the moment), the other becomes skeptical because of the self-protection mode they have been in for a period of time. If you split up and go your seperate ways and one day bump into each other and see you partner with someone else and they are doing something small with a new partner (such as holding hands or looking affectionately at someone) you would immediately feel justified that your previous partner was a horrible person because they could not bring themselves to do even these simplest of things with you, so now you have verify that you were right all along and your partner truly was a horrible person. Of course, you would be dead wrong and your previous partner has just been able to find themselves again with a person they may or may not fall into the same pattern with eventually.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you wade into a discussion using the big guns of “If you REALLY loved me you’d… “ and “Everyone else who is NORMAL would… “ or even Nine out of ten experts agree…. I think it’s little wonder that your wife doesn’t want to have the discussion with you. Suddenly your preferences aren’t on the same level playing field anymore – it’s escalated into a conflict between moral right and moral wrong. What’s wrong with “I’m asking you to call because I’d really like to hear from you. But, if you’re not OK with that, let’s figure something else out.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not use big guns with my W anymore. This is pointless and achieves nothing but anger on both sides. I do not hold back as much when I write here because I do use this post as an outlet to vent frustration at times as well. When I put things in quotes, you can bet I am trying my best to list out things as they accurately said. When I do not use quotes, you can bet that there is probably some venting going on somewhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After all, isn’t “I’d really like to hear from you” just as valid as “any normal loving relationship would have these phone calls?” It certainly is much harder to argue about.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sure is. I am ultimately concerned that even saying "I'd really like to hear from you," will be taken as a controlling statement and mentally inturpreted as "Call me or else..." I know this is where you will tell me it is not up to me to control or worry about how my W will think or react because she owns these feelings and needs to deal with them on her own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suppose what I’m trying to say is that you appear to play very hard ball when it comes to negotiating. It doesn’t come across as open negotiation at all. It comes across as ‘how can I convince my spouse that I’m right (of course) and that she SHOULD comply with what I want because..it’s the right, moral, and loving thing to do.” You list so many reasons that she’s wrong about her opinion that I really think she often just gives up and capitulates to your arguments without even trying to get any of her needs met. And, that, my friend explains the trouble you have with your agreements. Of COURSE she’s not invested in them – she only agreed so you’d stop telling her how wrong and unloving she is! OF COURSE she doesn’t want to broach the discussion with you – it only leads to you telling her that she doesn’t love you, acts abnormally, and is inconsistent in what she wants (wants you to call while she doesn’t)! THAT HURTS!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand where you are coming from here and I will admit to being a very tough negotiator. This has served me very well in business, but not so well in my M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, you’re not the only one who knows how to play that game, are you? She plays it just as well, doesn’t she? You don’t want to bring things up with her because then you get to hear how you’re manipulative, a sex fiend, controlling, unsupportive, and generally ineffective at meeting her needs. So, you find yourself capitulating and ‘agreeing’ to do things that are against your better interest because it’s painful to you to hear all those things about yourself. It’s better to give up a little bit of something in order to not be thought of in those unflattering terms.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, and now our S is becoming an expert.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, there are a couple of things that I can see you doing to help the situation. First, I really think you need to stop over analyzing things and making disrespectful judgments. Take this Christmas tree situation, what did you do to try and make this an attractive activity that she’d be enthusiastic about? Oh sure, she said some things that rubbed you the wrong way, so you just jumped right in there to make sure she knew you were right and to preserve your idea of how things ‘should be.’ Can you see the irony of you both fighting over how things ‘should be’ concerning something like a Christmas tree? What bad things happen if the bows are managed ‘correctly’ but the ornaments are too low? What bad things happen if fragile ornaments are kept in a special place and brought out in a few years as a rite of passage? What did YOU do to focus on her desires? Instead you asserted that you “Wanted her to participate in this family activity.” Then made it clear that participation meant she had to do it YOUR way and to YOUR idea of what a non-anal Christmas tree should be like. And, now, she gets to wear the labels of manipulative and controlling, too!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, what I feel I had done to make this a good activity for all of us was to agree to the fact of buying her her own tree and staying out of her putting together her "perfect" tree so that we (as a family) could put up a tree and my S does not grow up thinking that trimming a X-mas tree is something only done by mom. Where I took issue was not that my W was volunteering anything, it was the fact that she was demanding things from the beginning and when she met even the slightest ressistance, I feel she through in the towel and basically pulled the, "well if I cannot do it all my way, then I am not doing it at all" thing. I feel we gave by accepting the "other" tree. All I wanted was even participation being allowed by all three of us. Things would have went over a lot smoother if my W would have said, "Do you guys mind if I unpack the ornaments and put them in piles because there are some ornaments I need to take out of this box that probably should not go on the tree?" I would have not had a problem. I would have felt that my S and I were still a valid part of trimming this tree and it would have remained a non-issue. What actually happened was that my W said, "I have to take out all these ornaments myself and put them into piles for each of us." I said, "Do you mind if I help." She said, "I want to do this on my own." This is where I felt controlled.... Then when it acme to the ribbon thing, if my W would have said, "hey guys, how do you feel about my putting the bows on?" I would have totally not had a problem with this. Instead what happen is she grabbed all of the bows, and tried to hold onto all of them while she put them on the tree. When I looked up at the tree (not even looking at the bows) she immediately said, "What!" I said, "what are you talking about?" She said, "I am just putting on the bows so that they are spaced out properly." I said, "I was just looking at the tree. I was not watching you put the bows on." She got upset and the argument continued. You see, the interesting thing is that I find myself in these arguments (once in a while and far less than before) and she now is the one who keeps the srguments going. When I would feel compelled to keep the arguments going she would complain quite a lot about how I could not let things drop, yet now, this is exactly what she does. I am pretty confused about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see how every thing of ‘value’ she tried to contribute was immediately dismissed as contrary to the spirit of what YOU were trying to do? Ideally, shouldn’t doing something as a family be a blend of what you value and what she values? Ideally, shouldn’t that tree be a mix of chaotic decorations and very nicely placed bows? If you persist in telling her that her contributions are unwanted, unwarranted, controlling, invalid, and wrong (through words or expressions), then asking her to do something with you seems particularly pointless.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of Course, and this all would have happened if it was not demanded that things be a certain way. Remember, I am a romantic and I get into the whole spirit of Christmas thing and family, especially at this time of the year. So, I usually have my giver out and am willing to accept quite a lot in order to maintain peace and harmony at this time of the year.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me put it this way. If you want me to participate in something then you either have to be very clear about my role or let me present my ideas. If you want me there just to smile prettily and nod at you – affirming your great ideas – that’s fine if you tell me in advance. I’ll choose to do it or I won’t. But if you want my ACTIVE participation then you better DARN WELL be able to handle my opinion GRACIOUSLY when I give it. Otherwise, just don’t ask me. Things will go smoother. Really.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I completely agree and find this sensible. Basically, the whole tree thing had been agreed and negotiated for the last three years. She knows what I would like and I know what she would like and we had the work around of the two trees. Therefore, I have to say that she had complete and prior knowledge about trimming this particular family tree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, that’s how YOU, Extremely Lost, contributed to make that situation. SHE definitely contributed, also. She walked away. She refused to engage you. Oh, and she certainly wasn’t open to your ideas about how things should be, either. (I don’t want you to think I’m just being hard on you. I absolutely do recognize hat you didn’t cook this stew up all by your own self.) I will say this, though; you invited her into this activity and labeled it a ‘family’ activity so I do think that the onus was on you to truly make it a family activity. If you really only wanted EL and son do a Christmas tree, then you should have had fun with that and left her to her own devices. Then if she ASKED to participate, you’d have had some justification for laying down some “well, if you’re willing to let us make the decisions… “ type rules.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The onus is on both of us due to the three years of prior knowledge and agreed negotiation for this activity. I fully expect that trimming the family tree will be a family (all three) event and will be done in a non-controlling way so that our S really enjoys it. As it stands, when I said good night to our S, he found this experience to be horrible and I now feel very sad for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Next time try: “I’m somewhat disappointed and upset but I’m really not ready to talk about it right now. I’d really like to talk about it with you tomorrow, though.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gotcha.
But I also know (because she has told me before in similar situations) that this bothers her because she feels I am draggin things out and not just letting them go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here are a few starter examples…
- You’re willing to cheerfully and enthusiastically support your wife’s participation in council meetings in exchange for a date night.
- You’re willing to agree to change your phone calling habits as long as they apply equally (if she doesn’t have to call each night, neither do you) and that you can agree in advance when you’ll communicate and stick to that. In addition, you’d always like to at least have contact information.
- You’re willing to accept that you aren’t having regular satisfying sexual relations as long as a dialogue about your needs in that area can be opened for honest and frank discussion.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are all very good examples. I have been to the point where you also felt we were ready for negotiating. I had tried things like this and what I found was that my W would not become a fully participating negotiator. Instead, she would just say "ok" or "fine." I would not be told if she really was happy with things or not. This becomes frustrating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, you still haven’t really crystallized your message for your MC counseling. I gave you some ideas but I haven’t seen thoughts on those yet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about, "I understand and can appreciate the additional stress you are under during this holiday season. I do wish to be there for you in any way you need me to. I understand that during the last few weeks and through Christmas you do not need additional stress added to your life. I am not happy in our M right now. I very much want to be. I understand that we are at a point that we have reckognized that we are in a spiral and are both trying hard to stop this spiral. I believe you love me and am convinced you wish for a happier M as well. Although you have told me you feel that you have expressed your needs enough to me and that I have expressed mine to you, it is important to me that we list out or needs and expectations for a happy M in a non-vague manner and are committed to each other understanding these needs. I need to know that you understand and accept my personal needs as sound and valid. I would like to promise each other that starting with the new year, we will be more committed to meeting each other's needs."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The biggest persistent problem that is holding you back is your penchant for disrespectful judgments. I don’t really know what value they hold to you. I have a very hard time believing that they make you feel better about the situation. Is there anything I can say to you that will convince you to give them up.. just put them down and walk away from them? Maybe you think it’s scary to do that, but what MOS and My Alias and even LFC have been trying to tell you is that it’s less scary when you do that. I hope you decide to give that a try.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I said earlier, it is not a matter of deciding to stop. I have made this decision a long time ago. I just do not see DJs as DJs some of the time and feel ignorant and stupid because of this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are in my thoughts today, Extremely Lost. As always, I’m wishing you and your family the very best.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The same to you and your family Mys. I bet you are really looking forward to your first X-mas in your new home. I am happy for you.

Regarding the X-mas gift, I have gotten her a new computer, which is kind of a big gift, but necessary as her old one just is not good enough for what she needs for the things she wants to do. I need to get her a X-mas gift as well as a B-day gift. Maybe I can give her the computer for X-mas and a pillow for her B-day? I know, I know.

Take Care,

EL

Hey EL,

I see your post has been busy today and Mys is handling things well. I typed this up earlier but got busy and wasn't able to post. I'm going to post it anyway just so I can answer your questions to me.
===========================
In response to your question. I had some preconceived notions of what a normal sex life would be/should be for me. Those expectations weren’t being met and I was getting really resentful.

I didn’t lower my expectations regarding frequency I lowered my expectations of what she needed to bring to the table (call it style or mode or whatever). Also, the owness is on me to ASK . She will more than likely not be the initiator and SF is not going to happen if I wait for her to initiate. This is also a good policy for me to incorporate because I was afraid to ask (the reasons behind that are numerous) and because I wasn’t asking, SF wasn’t happening and I was building resentment. I now know that I can’t build resentment because it’s not happening. I’m extremely accountable for the fact that it is not happening.

I also learned to be empathatic to my W. She’s been through some tough things that have created the person she is. While I don’t necessarily like all the things she’s become they are a part of her and because I love her I’ve learned to accept these behaviors as being real and even necessary for her.

I certainly wouldn’t want you to become a doormat. And that’s not what I’m stating here.

You have a level of expectations for your W. Call them boundaries. I’m not an expert on discussing boundaries so I’ll leave that to the more knowledgable posters.

What I do see is that you have an expectation that is creating conflict for your W. She certainly doesn’t derive pleasure by administering pain so she has reasons she isn’t able to fulfill your need. So isn’t the logical step to negotiate with her to find a solution that you both could live with? The negotiating might include a compromise on your part which requires you to lower your expectation. And while you are compromising she will be doing the same that means she will be lowering her expectation (She expects you to be OK with her calling when she wants to). The key is to find that WIN-WIN solution.

Is your W open to negotiation? Do you think you could approach her about your expectation and tell her you would like to discuss a way that these situations could be handled in the future? Again work to find that WIN-WIN solution.

I think it’s important that you be careful when you draw lines in the sand regarding your expectations. Don’t get resentful unless you’ve discussed each and every unmet expectation and have done your best to negotiate the most amicable solution. I think that is where I always went wrong. I always assumed she should know what to do to make me happy and I never considered that she had valid reasons she couldn’t met my needs the way I expected them to be met. Until we discussed each and every expectation how could she truly know where I was feeling neglected?

My W and I now have a better M because we begun discussing and negotiating these expectations/needs. We’ve both put down our guards and we feel safer discussing stressful situations. We both are better about approaching each other to apologize when we’ve had a slip up or disagreement. Why even the disagreements are good because it forces us to bring the conflict out in the open and work TOGETHER to find a happy solution.

I could see you, eventually, having a M where you and your W can do the same. It does take time. We celebrated our 15 anniversary this September and we finally are doing better than ever. It’s not perfect and it still needs some work but we are definitely a strong couple now.

Gee I just realized I liked discussing this with you because it helped me take inventory of where my life is at. I wish the same for you EL. Keep trying to be open and honest and not get resentful when your W doesn’t automatically know how or behave the way you wish.

Aha! My Alias… don’t run away too fast. Can you explain the steps you took to effect the lowering of the guard? How did all that great negotiation happen for you?

Mys

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, you are right. I am concerned about saying anything because even with the best intentions and most careful wording, I still seem to generate negative responses from my W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and you should expect this type of response. Remember, you’re trying to get to conflict.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To be honest, I actually would not be as sensitized to this if we were in a happy M. I do see that I am being more critical than I normally would be in a good relationship because I am trying to disect things to fix them on their basic levels because my entire World is shattered. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I actually really relate to this. The problem is that it’s not helping you. This is like when you have a pet that has to have surgery, and you have to put them in those horrid plastic cones to keep them from licking the area. You do that because if they do what comes naturally, it will cause infection and harm. What we need is an emotional plastic cone for you. (You have to admit, I’m worth reading for my analogies alone!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You ask me why I hold onto using DJs, well, I am not, I just do not see DJs as DJs and appear to be blind to them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All right I’ll give you a big hand here. Stop trying to interpret your wife’s actions AT ALL. If you do that, you’ll conquer your DJ problem today. I really mean it. Just assume that what she does is what she does and that there may be a reason for it but it’s just a mystery to you. Until she comes out and says “I did X because of Y.” assume you have no idea (right, wrong, or indifferent) why she does what she does. Continue to have OPINIONS about her actions. Continue to have FEELINGS about her actions. If something she does hurts you, say “OUCH, that hurt!” but refrain from trying to figure out what her motives are for doing it (or not doing it). Don’t even THINK about it. If you find your mind going there, just remind yourself you have no idea and the ways of all women are mysterious and strange (that seems to help my H quite a lot).

Try it for a while.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This makes you feel awful when you hear them say something like this because you know you are still you and still would very much like to have the relationship before the nose dive occured and that you are still capable of doing this if your partner could do it as well. You become angry towards your partner for making you out to feel like some bad person you really are not. Your partner is angry because you have changed and come across to them as someone they would now rather be away from. It is difficult to end the spiral. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, but you do recognize that holding on this tight doesn’t really help end it, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course, you would be dead wrong and your previous partner has just been able to find themselves again with a person they may or may not fall into the same pattern with eventually. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, and as I mentioned a little earlier, you know that things aren’t heading towards simplicity, right? They’re getting more complicated. Future relationships will be HARDER to manage, in general, not easier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It sure is. I am ultimately concerned that even saying "I'd really like to hear from you," will be taken as a controlling statement and mentally inturpreted as "Call me or else..." I know this is where you will tell me it is not up to me to control or worry about how my W will think or react because she owns these feelings and needs to deal with them on her own. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, but even more important than that is, again, changing the way you ask for things and actually asking for different things and having the ability to accept alternatives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand where you are coming from here and I will admit to being a very tough negotiator. This has served me very well in business, but not so well in my M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your wife is, too. Being a tough negotiator is not a bad thing.. but again my definition of negotiation allows the possibility that you will GIVE UP the issue. If there’s no possibility then you’re not negotiating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, and now our S is becoming an expert. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gah!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, what I feel I had done to make this a good activity for all of us was to agree to the fact of buying her her own tree and staying out of her putting together her "perfect" tree so that we (as a family) could put up a tree and my S does not grow up thinking that trimming a X-mas tree is something only done by mom.
<snip>
When I would feel compelled to keep the arguments going she would complain quite a lot about how I could not let things drop, yet now, this is exactly what she does. I am pretty confused about this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Extremely Lost, I have to tell you, I’m confused too. Maybe I’m not up on Christmas tree etiquette but I don’t know that I’ve ever seen one that wasn’t just right. It’s all about the spirit and the expression.

I did mention that I felt your wife was wrong for stomping off, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of Course, and this all would have happened if it was not demanded that things be a certain way. Remember, I am a romantic and I get into the whole spirit of Christmas thing and family, especially at this time of the year. So, I usually have my giver out and am willing to accept quite a lot in order to maintain peace and harmony at this time of the year. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. So, what eventually happened? You and your son decorated the tree?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I completely agree and find this sensible. Basically, the whole tree thing had been agreed and negotiated for the last three years. She knows what I would like and I know what she would like and we had the work around of the two trees. Therefore, I have to say that she had complete and prior knowledge about trimming this particular family tree. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, sure, but does that mean that it’s not a reflection of her tastes at all? Like I said, ideally it would have very nicely spaced bows but chaotic ornaments. That would be a reasonable mix.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The onus is on both of us due to the three years of prior knowledge and agreed negotiation for this activity. I fully expect that trimming the family tree will be a family (all three) event and will be done in a non-controlling way so that our S really enjoys it. As it stands, when I said good night to our S, he found this experience to be horrible and I now feel very sad for him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The poor little guy. So how did it happen in prior years?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Gotcha.
But I also know (because she has told me before in similar situations) that this bothers her because she feels I am draggin things out and not just letting them go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, you need to let her feel however she needs to feel about it. This is about you. This is about you not wanting to talk about it right then but still being honest and not saying “Oh nothing” when you both darn well know there’s something. Be honest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These are all very good examples. I have been to the point where you also felt we were ready for negotiating. I had tried things like this and what I found was that my W would not become a fully participating negotiator. Instead, she would just say "ok" or "fine." I would not be told if she really was happy with things or not. This becomes frustrating. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I know. This is why I’m saying find things that help you be more satisfied with the status quo instead of asking her for things that she’d be willing to do differently. It requires much less active participation on her part yet still allows you the opportunity to get some of your needs asserted. You see where I’m going with this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How about, "I understand and can appreciate the additional stress you are under during this holiday season. I do wish to be there for you in any way you need me to. I understand that during the last few weeks and through Christmas you do not need additional stress added to your life. I am not happy in our M right now. I very much want to be. I understand that we are at a point that we have reckognized that we are in a spiral and are both trying hard to stop this spiral. I believe you love me and am convinced you wish for a happier M as well. Although you have told me you feel that you have expressed your needs enough to me and that I have expressed mine to you, it is important to me that we list out or needs and expectations for a happy M in a non-vague manner and are committed to each other understanding these needs. I need to know that you understand and accept my personal needs as sound and valid. I would like to promise each other that starting with the new year, we will be more committed to meeting each other's needs." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there are no DJ’s but it still seems a bit vague. I think it isn’t strong enough in the ”I’m not happy and this is getting to the point where something, somewhere IS going to change. You soften it too much, in my opinion. You can be direct and honest without making DJ’s.

Uhm… let’s see.

I am not happy in our marriage right now.

Although you have told me you feel that you have expressed your needs enough to me and that I have expressed mine to you, it is important to me that we list out or needs and expectations for a happy M in a non-vague manner and are committed to each other understanding these needs because otherwise I don’t think this marriage will be happy for either of us.

I need to be able to talk to you about my needs and feel as though I’m heard.

I would like to promise each other that starting with the new year, we will be more committed to meeting each other's needs. Specifically, after the new year, I’d like to begin having more frequent, frank discussions about what we both need to make this marriage work. Are you willing to commit to that?

I understand and can appreciate the additional stress you are under during this holiday season. I understand that during the last few weeks and through Christmas you do not need additional stress added to your life.



There, that’s better. I really think this ‘need to know you understand and accept my needs as valid’ is an end run around communication. Concentrate on getting a dialogue and see where that takes you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The same to you and your family Mys. I bet you are really looking forward to your first X-mas in your new home. I am happy for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really am, we’re still doing renovations and it’s fun.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Regarding the X-mas gift, I have gotten her a new computer, which is kind of a big gift, but necessary as her old one just is not good enough for what she needs for the things she wants to do. I need to get her a X-mas gift as well as a B-day gift. Maybe I can give her the computer for X-mas and a pillow for her B-day? I know, I know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, be nice! I still think you should think of something more modest for Christmas then make the computer a family decision but it sounds like you all ready ordered it. (You have, haven’t you? Mmmm? )

Look, I’m always willing to help, so you can send the new computer to me… and then… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hehehehe!

Mys

Mys,

Hmmm,

I don't really know for sure.

I suppose the first step was to make a personal commitment to myself and my M to be open and honest and to discuss and negotiate with my W. I came to the realization that things weren't working using the same techniques I used before.

The next steps seemed to happen gradually and the key was to soften our stances when discussing certain issues. We both had to work to build trust and understand the need to make conversations safe for each other. We DID NOT discuss how we would negotiate because my W doesn't participate here or understand fully the MB principles so I didn't try to introduce those.

I think we had to go through quite a bit of conflict before we were able to make it safe for each other. Our conflicts were brought on by each of us trying to maintain our protection of ourselves not willing to be the one getting walked all over. When we finally started having conversations (arguments) over some of the tougher issues I think we both began to hear words from each other that made us both realize we weren't going to take advantage of the situation. That we both were only there to improve the M and protect each other.

I really think my W and I didn't have as far to go as EL and his W but it's hard to get a true barometer reading over a message board.

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: MyAlias ]</small>

Originally posted by Myschae
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All right I’ll give you a big hand here. Stop trying to interpret your wife’s actions AT ALL. If you do that, you’ll conquer your DJ problem today. I really mean it. Just assume that what she does is what she does and that there may be a reason for it but it’s just a mystery to you. Until she comes out and says “I did X because of Y.” assume you have no idea (right, wrong, or indifferent) why she does what she does. Continue to have OPINIONS about her actions. Continue to have FEELINGS about her actions. If something she does hurts you, say “OUCH, that hurt!” but refrain from trying to figure out what her motives are for doing it (or not doing it). Don’t even THINK about it. If you find your mind going there, just remind yourself you have no idea and the ways of all women are mysterious and strange (that seems to help my H quite a lot).

Try it for a while. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is very sound advice and it is something I wish I would have heard years ago. Too many times I catch myself trying to interpret the situation (yes I still am doing it occasionally). I will make assumptions why my W behaves a certain way ... adding conclusions that have no real concrete evidence but only my spin on why I feel she behaves the way she does. And just like you, EL, I make a diagnosis and feel I could FIX what is wrong with my W. Like it was my duty to fix her. In the end after discussing what I perceived to be the issue I usually found I was way off base and was being a bit disrespectful (DJs, DJs, DJs) with my interpretation. How sad is it to know that I built up resentment based on assumptions (DJs) I made?

So what do I do differently now?

I make it a point to be open and honest with my W when I notice certain behaviors. And when I get the usual pat answer "It's nothing." I let her take her time to deal with the issue and hope that she will eventually find a way to make things right for herself or feel comfortable enough to discuss them with me.

EL, this rung a bell for me when you told us about your reply to your counselor about how your W takes her struggles with other parts of her life out on you and/or your family. My W and I are both guilty of that. I'm sure it's some type of passive-aggressive behavior that we put out there to seek help or attention.

I would have suggested a different response. I would have said 'It bothers me that my W is struggling with other issues in her life and those issues seem to create a mood for her that she can't put aside when she's dealing with our immediate family. But what bothers me most is that we aren't communicating and working well enough together that I'm able to be there for her, to comfort her when she needs comfort and help her when she asks for help.'

I know my W and I know she takes on a lot of her issues by herself. She wants help but doesn't know how to ask for it. So I have learned that when she says 'it's nothing' it's important that I communicate that I feel there is something and that I wish she'd feel comfortable enough to tell me what is troubling her. That has worked well for us. She's much more open and honest with her struggles. She's becoming less of a martyr and she's allowing me to help her when I can and she's letting me listen to what bothers her (Of course I have to keep my big yap shut and not offer solutions unless she asks for my help).

So .... I just wanted to reiterate that I think this advice Stop trying to interpret your wife’s actions AT ALL. Mys has given you is good advice.

Wow, I didn't realize I was such a thread killer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Where'd everyone go?

Awwww...

Rest assured this thread is much too tough to die! I assume that EL is in a very busy period at work and hasn't had time to respond to the novellettes that are standard for this thread. I expect he'll be back when things settle down.

I was waiting for an update on his MC session yesterday (I'm pretty sure it was yesterday).

Mys

Mys,

Did my response to your question help you define what it was you were trying to communicate to EL?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did my response to your question help you define what it was you were trying to communicate to EL?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but mostly I was looking for a fresher (more recent) and male perspective on what it was, specifically, you did to change the dynamic. I think, ultimately, you and I are saying much of the same thing (and MOS, lfc, and everyone else) but each of us has our own voice and own ways to describe things. I think that's one power of this message board, there are so many voices. This thread is rare in the sense that I feel most of us are in a chorus saying many (if not all) of the same things.

That's just my opinion, though.

Mys

Well I for one think you do the best job of communicating what I'm thinking but can't get straight enough in my head to explain it here.

I see many traits in EL that I used to do (and sometimes still do). Especially this part when talking about his expectations and assumptions.

It's taken me a long while to get to the point where I no longer hold her accountable for my unhappiness. The combination of ... me being open and honest about my feelings, removing my assumptions, and not expecting her to behave a certain way but instead change my reaction to her behaviors ... has gone a long way in improving how "I" feel about my M. My W has made some changes but she could have stayed just the way she was and I'd still be happier because I changed my pattern of thinking.

I'm Back!!!!

Sorry it took so long. Mys knows me too well. Things have truly been too busy.

Anyway, right, the MC session. Well, the first part was about my W's family again. Then we got into us. The MC started to push this topic (ya for MC). When it got right down to it, I stated again that I am not happy in our M. I explained things like Mys and I were talking about (thanks Mys). What ended up coming out of my W was way interesting.

My W said that she told me all along I was being controlling and jealous, when this nasty behavior of mine started. She said I did not notice this until we were not having sex. This immediately made me think that potentially one of my W's issues was that she was fearful that if we started to have sex, then I would go on to forget about the things I do that hurt her. So I asked this in the session and my W said no to this. Anyway, my W still said that if we were having sex, I would not have any problems with our M. I again mentioned that I believe this is not true and that if we were having sex, I would still want to come to the MC because I would not be happy because the rest of my needs were still not being met and I still would not feel my W was happy. My W said that she feels I decieved her by "changing" into this controlling person after we were together. I said that I am the same person she fell in love with, but I had lost my way a bit and am know trying to find my path again. She did not believe me. She also said how I kept pushing that the problem was hers and this is when I made her go to all of these doctors.

I thought about all this at work and then I realized why this all bothered me so much. Basically, when we started to not have sex, I began to feel rejected. I am a big believer in communications, although not the best at communicating at times. Still, I tried to "talk" about the lack of sex with my W and every time I did, she would get really frustrated, say she was sorry, tell me that it was not me and that she did not know what was wrong with her. She would tell me that she wished she knew what was wrong with her so she could fix it and make things all better. She consistently told me this for the first two years of our problems, so I began believing that she knew herself and knew what she was talking about. So I supported her in going to multiple doctors and specialists (even when she did not have insurance and this cost me a bundle before we were actually married). So, the more I thought about this, the more I got upset with my W for flipping this whole thing. Later that night we are in bed and I say to my W that I have been thinking about what she said earlier that day. She said, "what" and let out a frustrating sigh. I said that I do not understand why you feel I was the one saying you had the problem and I was the one who pushed you to all the doctors and specialists when the first two years you would only say to me that it was not my fault and you did not know what was wrong with you. She said, "What else was I supposed to say?" This hurt. So I said to her, "I am truly sorry that you feel I am a different and deceitful person compared to the person you first thought I was." She said, "What do you want me to say?"

I got sad after this and needed some alone time. When I returned to bed my W was upset with me for "ignoring her." I said that I was not ignoring you, but I needed time to think. I said to her, "I feel very lonely and empty inside." She said, "I have felt that way for a long time." I said, "I know." We went to sleep.

I do not know what to actually make of all this. I do not know if it is positive or negative and if I should really be happy or sad about things.

The last few days after this we have not had much contact because I have been very busy at work. Anyway, gotta go....

Take Care,

EL

Extremely Lost

I’m going to take your post a little out of order.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know what to actually make of all this. I do not know if it is positive or negative and if I should really be happy or sad about things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not sure you should ‘be’ anything. On the one hand, it’s good that you had a conversation and received some interesting information. On the other hand, I can see that it is difficult to be happy about the idea that there is still work to be done.

Not that you really need my endorsement, but in case it helps, I think mixed feelings at this point are quite, quite appropriate.

Now then, I really don’t want to let the ‘expectations’ and what I said about not interpreting actions as a way of eliminating DJ’s go by uncommented. Please, reassure me that you’re at least thinking about what I said even if you don’t agree. Or, tell me that you’ve read it, didn’t like it/don’t think it would work, and we’re finished with it, please. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Soooo… back to your MC session. I have a couple of comments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W said that she told me all along I was being controlling and jealous, when this nasty behavior of mine started. She said I did not notice this until we were not having sex. This immediately made me think that potentially one of my W's issues was that she was fearful that if we started to have sex, then I would go on to forget about the things I do that hurt her. So I asked this in the session and my W said no to this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NICE! Now that was a very, very astute and good question!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, my W still said that if we were having sex, I would not have any problems with our M. I again mentioned that I believe this is not true and that if we were having sex, I would still want to come to the MC because I would not be happy because the rest of my needs were still not being met and I still would not feel my W was happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, Extremely Lost, this is a conversation trap that you keep falling into. We need to come up with a different or a variety of different responses to the comment: ”If we were having sex, you would not have any problems with our M.” Because, each and every time your W says that, you end up in a non-productive conversation.

Apparently, “I believe this is not true… “ is not the right response to break out of the conversational block. This might be a case where you have to try a few different approaches to find one that gets you past this block.

Here’s one that might work.



Her: If we were having sex, you would not have any problems with our M.

You: If we were having sex I WOULD be much happier with our marriage but I get the impression that you’d be more unhappy with our marriage. Is that a true statement? And, if so, what are our options? What do you think we ought to do about it?



What I’m trying to do is get you out of avoiding talking about how the lack of sex in your marriage is a problem because it’s not the ONLY problem. You see how this trap works? It neatly diverts the conversation away from how re-establishing sex can be and must be an integral part of your marital recovery because then you end up discussing how other things are wrong and what some of them might be. My suggestion is that you stay on topic and simply acknowledge the part of her statement that is TRUE – ie. that if you were having sex the relationship would be much better from your perspective.

Extremely Lost, this is a point where the two of you are stuck. Something has to change in this conversational dynamic or it’s going to be almost impossible to ever discuss how the lack of sex is IMPORTANT to you. Instead, you’re going to be there discussing how other things are important, too, what they are.. etc, etc, etc. It’s high time you stepped off this particular merry-go-round; if, for no other reason, than I’m getting tired of hearing it, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You can’t change her approach, but you sure can change your response around until you find something that doesn’t divert the conversation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I thought about all this at work and then I realized why this all bothered me so much. Basically, when we started to not have sex, I began to feel rejected. I am a big believer in communications, although not the best at communicating at times. Still, I tried to "talk" about the lack of sex with my W and every time I did, she would get really frustrated, say she was sorry, tell me that it was not me and that she did not know what was wrong with her. She would tell me that she wished she knew what was wrong with her so she could fix it and make things all better. She consistently told me this for the first two years of our problems, so I began believing that she knew herself and knew what she was talking about. So I supported her in going to multiple doctors and specialists (even when she did not have insurance and this cost me a bundle before we were actually married). So, the more I thought about this, the more I got upset with my W for flipping this whole thing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DJ alert! Your wife didn’t ‘flip’ anything. She experienced the events differently or remembers them differently. But, again, no assigning motives. (Using the term 'flipped it' implies that she changed it around to suit herself and for her benefit which sneaks up on a judgement about her motives. It's indirect, but it's still there.)

What’s important to realize is that you both have very different perspectives on this matter.

So, take a deep breath and consider the following questions:

- Does your difference in perspective make a material difference in the solution of the problem?

- If it’s your ‘fault’, does that change what you’re willing to do to fix it?

- If it’s her ‘fault’ does that make a difference in what you’re willing to do to fix it?

- If she feels it’s your fault and you disagree does that make a difference in what you’re willing to do to fix it?

- If she feels it’s your fault and you feel it’s her fault, does that make a difference in what you’re willing to do to fix it?

In other words, does agreeing on the events leading up to where you are matter as much as agreeing on where you are right now and then learning to agree what to do about it?

My assertion is that it really isn’t going to matter, in the end, how you got where you ended up. What matters is what you BOTH decide to do about it now. Scapegoats are a lot of maintenance. They eat a lot of energy, time, and resources to keep alive. The best thing to do is to let them quietly decide to go live with someone else. Letting your wife believe that it’s your fault if she wants to is not the same thing as accepting all of the responsibility. Also, for what it’s worth, time and resolution tends to change attitudes, anyway. It’s wasted energy to concern yourself with that now AND it makes you susceptible to DJ’s.

Pick your battles, Extremely Lost. You can choose to expend your energy and resources building agreement on what happened and how you both should feel about it OR you can choose to expend your energy and resources on building agreement on a solution.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I got sad after this and needed some alone time. When I returned to bed my W was upset with me for "ignoring her." I said that I was not ignoring you, but I needed time to think. I said to her, "I feel very lonely and empty inside." She said, "I have felt that way for a long time." I said, "I know." We went to sleep. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great. This is exactly what you should be doing more of, Extremely Lost. You’re not arguing perspective; you’re simply sharing how you feel and acknowledging how you feel. I also like how your actions are matching your feelings. You needed some time alone so you took it. You didn't do it in a punitive way, but instead you chose an honest reaction to a feeling that was all about you. Very well done.

You both feel lonely and empty inside. Believe it or not, that’s a good starting point for a discussion on “Well, feeling lonely and empty inside isn’t a lot of fun. Do you think we should do something about that?”

I hope your work load lessens some and you have a chance to enjoy your holidays. I might be scarce for the next couple of weeks. Over Christmas we’ve decide to tear down the interior of our basement so we can put it all back together again! Whee! It’s going to be a lot of work but I think it should also be a lot of fun.

Mys

Hello everyone,

I have decided to make a statement during MC tomorrow morning. I would like to get help from everyone, Mys, MOS, Myalias, LFC and others. Based upon my thinking of what has transpired since last weeks MC session, I think it is pertinent to make a statement to my W. One of unconditional love and respect for her.

You see, I have been giving this all a lot of thought. One of the things that has bothered me since April is my trying to figure out why I was so oblivious to how my own actions were degrading my M. When I finally came to this realization, with the help of the MB books, it was as if a new and scary World was opened to me and I felt very much as would a blind person who could finally see for the first time. However, the one thing that alluded me all this time is why I could not see this from the start. Usually I am a pretty good perceptive person who is right on in assessing a person and their character. I do understand how a person can become ignorant, no matter how perceptive they are, to their private World around them because they are too close to the situation to remain objective at times. Let me recap a little history for you.

Basically, my W (then new girl friend) and I, became pregnant after the first weekend we spent together, which was in July of 1999. After learning about our pregnancy, we both quickly took stock in our lives and where we both were at. Both of us were living in two different states (3 states apart). We decided that we felt strongly that we both loved each other. We also felt strongly that we both wanted to have our child and that we wanted our child to have the best we could give him. Therefore, in the holiday season of 1999, I took a new job that was with in 5 hours of where my W was living. My W moved in with me and we began our family. Shortly after our baby was born, our physical intimacy began to slowly dissappear. Both my W and I realized something was wrong, but we never could figure out what it was. Meanwhile, we had our new born son to take care of.

I worked hard at being successful in my new job to try and offer us a sense of stability and peace in our constantly changing private world. We also built our first home because we wanted our S to grow up in a home instead of an apartment. My W did not go back to work out of both our choices because we felt we could afford for her to be home with the baby and that the baby would have a tremendous benefit by having mom at home. Meanwhile, our own relationship became more strained.

Each time I would try and discuss what was happening with us, we would end up in an argument because we both lacked the proper communication skills to avoid these arguments. One thing stood out clear in my mind. Every time we discussed the lack of desire on my W's side, my W would ALWAYS say, "It is not your fault. Trust me it has nothing to do with you. I do not what is wrong. I wish I did so that I could fix it." This was always the answer I recieved, and yes, using the word "always" is appropriate here. Throughout the first 3 years of this lack of intimacy, I felt very painful rejection and I could not help but naturally think atleast some of it had to do with me. However, some of the "discussions" we had, which ALWAYS came with the same message regarding this not having anything to do with me was followed by some comments from my W making a point to say something like, "why does it have to be about you? I keep telling you it is not about you." Therefore, I trodded along for years believing my W and that her lack of desire had nothing to do with me.

During these first three years, I listened to my W, trusted what she was saying and took her "I wish I knew what was wrong so I could fix it" comments as a cry for help. Therefore, I explored medical reasons with my W for her loss of desire. We spent a lot of time and money going to "experts," especially while she did not have insurance and we were not yet married so the costs were much greater, but I ALWAYS felt she was worth it. Unfortunately, we never found a magic bullet. No real solutions were offered. Two years into this issue, we got engaged and married. Lookiing back through the first three years of our problems, I can only remember a handful of times my W only hinted to me that she thought I was being controling and jealous and this was a turn off for her.

However, after the third year of not being intimate (1 year of M), while still being told it is not me and the lack of any proffesional help that actually helped, I fell into withdrawl. We pretty much just co-existed and took care of the job, house and son. I felt very much like we were roomates. After a year of this, something made me feel like I had enough. I grew angry with my W and became irritated with her easily. Something drew me out of withdrawl and brought me into conflict, but I still lacked the proper communication tools to make things work. For another couple of months we would get into fights and at the end of these months, I found MB. This was April of 2004. Since April, I have been learning and trying to practice the principles of MB. I have been writting on this board with you nice people.

In the last MC session, my W said that she told me all along that my actions were causing her to loose our emotional connection. She said that I only acknowledged my own negative actions after we were not having sex. She also feels that if we were now having sex, I would feel that all is fine with our relationship. I can assure all of you this would not be the case with everything I have learned from MB and you nice people.

Well, right after this session last week, I had to work, but something about this session really did not sit right with me. Later that night I tried to talk about the session and I mentioned to my W that one of the things that really bothers me is that for a long period of time, she would only tell me that her lack of desire was not my fault etc.. My W said, "What was I supposed to say?" I was shocked and it took me a few days to get through what she was really saying.

Basically, I feel as though, I trusted her words, but she was not giving me truthful information. I feel that I put in a lot of effort in the wrong places because I was given false information. I also had trouble throughout this last five years as to how my W would tell me something, but her actions were not consistent. I had talked to a number of you here about this before, but now I look back on it and I think it is starting to make sense.

When I ask my W if she still loves me, she will say, "yes." However, she does not want to here about the things that make me happy and at times wants to discount these things. When I ask my W if she feels trapped or stuck in a situation, she will say, "no." Yet, her actions say the opposite. At times her coldness towards me or our S shocks me. There are several other examples of words versus behavior that just do not add up.

Therefore, I am about to commit a big DJ because my W will not come out and tell me any conclusions to all of this and I am forced to draw this conclusion because I am tired and do not have much left inside to continue to "play this game" any longer. So please forgive me upfront for my DJ commiting because of my drawing a conclusion based upon my W's actions and words. My conclusion is that she does feel trapped and is out of love with me. This hurt for me to say and it brings tears to even type this, but I fear it is what I must conclude.

Having concluded this, I must now look at the bigger picture and assess what my feelings and thoughts are:

1) I deeply love my W.

2) I only want my W to be happy, no matter what this means. It is more important to me that my W is happy even if this means she has to leave me to be happy. This is unconditional love.....

3) I will not stay in the current situation we are in and continue to feel like roomates and a person who's feelings are not right, nor desires incorrect.

4) I will no longer be ashamed for desiring my W sexually.

5) I do wish to live the rest of my life with my W in a happy M.

Having said these five things, Mys asked me what my message was that I wanted to get across in the MC session. Well, here is my attempt at a statement for my W.

_____________________________________________

Honey,

I love you. I do now and I always will. In the last counseling session you mentioned how I would not listen to you about how my actions were hurting you and that it was only until we stopped having sex that I finally took notice. I have thought about this a lot and have come to an understanding in my head.

One of the things that caused me saddness about your statements was that for the first three years of our physical intimacy dissappearing, you would constantly tell me how it was not my fault and that your lack of desire had nothing to do with me. There are only a few brief times I can actually recall your telling me that my being controlling and jealous was pushing you away and I apologize for not understanding what you fully were trying to tell me.

Throughout the first three years of our lack of physical intimacy, the feelings of rejection and dissapointment were coupled with believing you when you told me that your lost desire was not my fault and that you wished you knew what to do so that you could fix things. I believed what you were telling me and this is why I thought I was helping by supporting you with seeing multiple specialists, because I could not stand seeing you frustrated and hurt any more.

Now you feel I am some awful person who decieved you from the beginning and when I felt comfortable that you would not leave, I started treating you poorly. It pains me greatly to have the person I care so very much for, feel this way about me. I am not a different person. I am a confused and lonely person. However, how you feel is how you feel and I cannot force a change of feeling upon you. I do not know if you will ever feel differently about me.

When I asked you Tuesday night about my confusion about how you used to tell me that our issues had nothing to do with me, you told me, "what was I supposed to say?" This statement has caused me to think the most. I took you at your word and trusted your word for years and you have now said that you were just saying what you thought I wanted to hear. This worries me. Every time you say you love me, or that you want to stay, or that you believe in us, is this more of the same - is it just what you think I might want to hear? I do not know anymore.

But the intent of this is not to confront you. It is to explain my feelings. When it comes right down to it, you and I being happy is what is the most important to me. Your happiness is so important to me, that if the only way for you to be truly happy is for me to be out of your life, then I would leave with a tear in my eye and you in my heart.

Though your words say you are happy, your actions tell a different story. I can see how you are not a happy person and I hurt inside because I am a part of your unhappiness. The other night when I told you I was feeling lonely and empty, you said, "So am I and I have been for a long time." I believe you. I believe those words. I want you to be happy and love life again.

You are a beautiful rose and I appear to be a cloud blocking your sun. You give me a reason for getting up in the mornings. In our past you gave me strength and love, wisdom and happiness, spirit and comfort. Now, you appear uncomfortable at so freely giving me these things as you once had done.

My dream is to be your prince charming, your confidant, your strength, your spirit, your friend, your lover, your happiness. I now accept that I can only be this for you, if you choose to let me be this for you. Over the past five years, I feel this has not been an easy choice for you and you have yet to let me be this person. I very much wish for you happiness. I am sorry that this choice proves to be difficult for you and that you have trouble being able to open up to me and letting me in.

As I have said before, I have now come to a point where I am lonely and empty. I have nothing left but hope. When we were married, you told me you gave me your heart. At some point you took your heart back and I have been missing it ever since. I am sorry, but I do not have it left inside of me to continue pushing things up hill in hopes for improvements. I do believe in you and I always will. We have a great son and I am proud and honored to have him and to have shared what life you have allowed us to share.

I love you and can no longer work on this M feeling as though I am the only one wanting this M to improve.

I truly love you.

____________________________________________


So what do you think?

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So what do you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don’t send or read the letter to your wife. It comes across as a manipulative attempt (on your part) to make her feel guilty and accept a lion’s share of the blame in all that’s gone on in your relationship. It comes across as you making yourself out as a martyr and her as ungrateful and not realizing what a great guy you are (and always were). If I were to receive the message framed that way I’d feel as though you were trying to insult my intelligence, hadn’t heard a word I’d said to you EVER, and frankly that you are trying to make the end of our relationship all about me and how it has to be my fault.

Just because you say it isn’t your intent doesn’t dilute the strength of the guilt trip you’re laying here, my friend.

I like your first list much better:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) I deeply love my W.

2) I only want my W to be happy, no matter what this means. It is more important to me that my W is happy even if this means she has to leave me to be happy. This is unconditional love.....

3) I will not stay in the current situation we are in and continue to feel like roomates and a person who's feelings are not right, nor desires incorrect.

4) I will no longer be ashamed for desiring my W sexually.

5) I do wish to live the rest of my life with my W in a happy M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">with only 1 slight edit to take the martyring statement “It is more important to me that my W is happy even if this means she has to leave me to be happy. This is unconditional love.... out of number 2.

Why not go in there with that list instead?

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) I deeply love my W.

2) I only want my W to be happy, no matter what this means. It is more important to me that my W is happy even if this means she has to leave me to be happy. This is unconditional love.....

3) I will not stay in the current situation we are in and continue to feel like roomates and a person who's feelings are not right, nor desires incorrect.

4) I will no longer be ashamed for desiring my W sexually.

5) I do wish to live the rest of my life with my W in a happy M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, on further review, I’d get rid of number 2 entirely unless “no matter what it means” also translates into “even if it means remaining forever in this marriage exactly as it is because it suits her perfectly fine."

If that isn’t the truth, then take number 2 off the list.

Mys