Whew...

Thanks for replying myschae. I didn't want to be the first to ask 'What is it you think you're going to accomplish by sending this letter?'

EL,

I know you're unhappy and you want to make some things happen to change that (and you want everyone to be happy) but myschae is right. This letter isn't going to be productive unless you're wanting to give her a reason to say 'That's IT ... I'm done and I want out!'.

It would prove to be more productive to discuss the statements you both made ... I feel very lonely and empty inside. I have felt that way for a long time." So build agreement that you both are feeling this way and then brainstorm ways to work to change that. Communicate more openly and honestly (without DJing).

I would say change #2 (if you want to leave something in there) to say.

2). I want my W to be happy and I want to be happy too.

Extremely Lost

You’re fond of using history as a means to add perspective to your decisions, thoughts, and feelings. I thought I’d try a little of that.

Since I ‘met’ you .. which was around August or so, I think. I know I wasn’t here since April, the thread was all ready quite long by the time I showed up here. We’ve discussed the concept of the Love bank, withdrawal, how the path to intimacy from withdrawal leads through conflict, different point of views, a ton of stuff on disrespectful judgments, and ways in which you communicate different messages than you plan to send.

In the past couple of months, we’ve been discussing how it’s time for you to move to assertively making Thoughtful Requests for your needs to be met. I thought (and still think) that you had enough of a handle on your LBing behaviors that it is time for you to move your relationship into conflict.

The purpose of moving your relationship into conflict is to use different tools to handle conflict than you’ve used in the past.

All along, I’ve tried to be frank with you. Conflict is not pleasant. Conflict is much more difficult than stopping LB’ing behavior. Conflict does NOT mean that you will GET YOUR WAY.

I’d like to take a moment to clarify a couple of things that will need to happen in order for your foray into conflict to be a successful turn around.

First, your constant interpretation of your wife’s motives is damaging your ability to engage successfully in conflict. It represents a very strong tie that you have with your old way of doing things.

Second, if your wife moves into a state of intimacy and is ‘in love’ with you once again that does not mean she will naturally fall into doing all the behaviors you consider loving. What that DOES mean is that she will be very likely to negotiate those behaviors with you. It must always be HER CHOICE whether or not she is going to meet any particular need and how she is willing to meet it. If she chooses not to meet a particular need, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t love you. It just means she doesn’t want to meet that need. There is no point or system by which you will EVER get your wife to meet any need you ask for just because she loves you. That is the cornerstone of Harley’s program.

I think your letter harkens back to an older method of handling conflict and pain on your behalf, Extremely Lost. I can certainly understand that this is very, very difficult for you (probably the most difficult thing you’ve ever done) but those old ways didn’t work very well for you then and I suspect won’t work very well for you now.

I’m also sympathetic to your angst about whether you should stay or go. I’d like to offer a suggestion that you commit to at least asking assertively for change before you travel too far down that road mentally. I know you like direct, so let me tell you what I think is behind your current feelings of ‘being done’ and ‘being tired.’ Extremely Lost, I think you are just as resistant to entering conflict as your wife is. I think you don’t want to go there. I also think you’re afraid of the pain and instability it causes and it’s impossible to see what the result will be. I think there is a VERY good chance you’ll never get everything you ask for (most of us don’t) but I think there’s an excellent chance that you’ll get enough to live with.

I hope you’ll stop working on exit strategies and stay on program long enough to give yourself, your wife, and your marriage every opportunity to flourish. It’s going to take strength and determination and, more importantly, it’s going to take the courage to hang in there and do something that is very, very unpleasant (conflict).

If you decide that path is NOT for you, then I heartily recommend that you disengage as cleanly as possible and protect your wife and your son from your ‘true feelings.’ I suggest you resist the urge to ‘let it all out’ as you walk out the door. If you really think it’s important, write it all out and wait 8-12 months after the divorce and then give it to your wife, if you still feel it’s relevant.

I know I’ve said this before but I think it’s worth saying again. Either work on your marriage, Extremely Lost, or don’t. Sitting there with one foot in the marriage while your gaze is firmly fixed on the door is just not going to be an effective strategy.

Mys

Mys,

What am I supposed to do? I have tried to improve in a lot of ways. My W seems to have lost her love for me. She feels I am this horrible and decietful person. She has led me to believe for three years that it was not my fault. I trusted her words for three years Mys. Three long and difficult years, where I geared my entire life towards finding a solution or cure for what she felt was not my "fault." Two years after this, she now is saying, "what was I supposed to say?" which has caused me to feel a fundamental feeling of mistrust of her words, the very thing you guys are telling me to listen too. I do not know what to do anymore.

Even in her own words she said, "what else was I suppose to say?" Well, for starters being honest would go a long way. When I said to her that I was sorry she sees me as this horrible decietful person she said, "I do not know what you want me to say." Hardly any of what she said is compassionate or carrying for my feelings. Her actions are still of someone with deep rooted anger towards me. When we had a small open house on Saturday, she basically was putting me down in front of some neighbors. This is not how I want the person who is supposed to be in love with me behave towards me. She does not like going to counseling or even attempting to talk about us. When I said in counseling that I wanted us to be able to set aside some agreed time to talk about our M, she said, "Why do we have to set time aside, and why do we have to talk about it? We have talked about everything and said everything already. There is nothing more to say." When I said, "I would like to set some time aside for us to discuss our M so we can work towards improved communications and being comfortable with talking about the tougher issues. I also need validation of my feelings and needs as well as learn to negotiate through conflict with each other." She said, "validate? Negotiate? What is our M a business deal now?" She is not even giving things a chance. When I opened up to her and was honest about my feelings, she had to one up me and say she not only feels the same way, but has felt this way for a long time. However, she does not offer the opportunity to move out of this feeling of lonliness and emptiness. I have not given up for me. She appears to me to have given up, but has not realized it, or is not willing to actually come to grips with it. I view that my continuing to just move forward at the same pace is unfair to me, to her and to our child. I do not want to loose her, but if this is what must happen for her to be happy, I would hate myself for standing in her way. This is unconditional love.... I am not trying to be a marter. I am trying to be the man my W fell in love with and care about her beyond caring about myself, while maintaining personal boundaries with regards to staying in a M that is sexless.

The message you are suggesting does not seem to convey any of this and at best seems to maintain the status quo.....

I do not want to drag, or lead my W around. I have way too much respect for her than to do that to her. She is obviously not emotionally strong enough to speak the truth for herself, so I was trying to make it easier for her. This in no way means I want to give her up, it means I am willing to make what I consider to be the ultimate sacrafice for her to be happy. I do not even know if she will ever realize the sacrafice I am willing to make for her.

EL

Mys,

I have tried what you suggested. I have went along and tried to not pre-judge my W's motives on things she does or says to me. It was interesting and did help me to not engage in certain negative ways of thinking. Where it did not help me is when my W said things I felt was cruel and unusually insensitive towards me. To tell me "what else was I supposed to say" is extremely hurtful and says to me "so what if I lied to you. Its what you wanted to hear. You could take the truth." When I opened up and said I was sorry she saw me in a horrible light, she still offered no comfort and slammed the door further on me. Then she goes about the rest of the day as if nothing has happened. She is slowly killing me and constantly shows no remorse. I am supposed to be paying some big price for some "evil" ways I have treated her, when for most of the time she told me "it was not me." How would you feel if you were in my position?

I did not want to continue to "drag her down" by her feeling like I am forcing my desires for a happy M with her. She needs to want this as well or it will never happen. I do not have one foot in the M and one foot out of the M, however, I do evaluate where our M does seem to be and the actions/words my W has offered to help me make a decision of if I actually feel she is making an effort or just playing me. I am trying to be honest, sincere, caring and loving in my words. Not cold, calus and manipulative.

EL

Extremely Lost

Aha, I see we cross posted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What am I supposed to do? I have tried to improve in a lot of ways. My W seems to have lost her love for me. She feels I am this horrible and decietful person. She has led me to believe for three years that it was not my fault. I trusted her words for three years Mys. Three long and difficult years, where I geared my entire life towards finding a solution or cure for what she felt was not my "fault." Two years after this, she now is saying, "what was I supposed to say?" which has caused me to feel a fundamental feeling of mistrust of her words, the very thing you guys are telling me to listen too. I do not know what to do anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, what’s a better option than listening to her words? Actions can be interpreted too many different ways. How do you reach consensus on what any particular action means? Until we develop telepathy, her words are all you ever had or will have to go on, I’m afraid.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even in her own words she said, "what else was I suppose to say?" Well, for starters being honest would go a long way. When I said to her that I was sorry she sees me as this horrible decietful person she said, "I do not know what you want me to say." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you feel this is a dishonest statement?

Let me put it this way, the statement… ” When I said to her that I was sorry she sees me as this horrible decietful person.” seems to require some sort of response. I mean, what did you really expect her to say? “Oh, I’m sorry, I take it all back, of course you didn’t deceive me? I really don’t feel that way?” Or, “Well, I do, and I’m sorry, too.” Yeesh, Extremely Lost, you boxed her into a conversational corner. I think “I don’t know what you want me to say.” is a very honest thing to say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hardly any of what she said is compassionate or carrying for my feelings. Her actions are still of someone with deep rooted anger towards me. When we had a small open house on Saturday, she basically was putting me down in front of some neighbors. This is not how I want the person who is supposed to be in love with me behave towards me. She does not like going to counseling or even attempting to talk about us. When I said in counseling that I wanted us to be able to set aside some agreed time to talk about our M, she said, "Why do we have to set time aside, and why do we have to talk about it? We have talked about everything and said everything already. There is nothing more to say." When I said, "I would like to set some time aside for us to discuss our M so we can work towards improved communications and being comfortable with talking about the tougher issues. I also need validation of my feelings and needs as well as learn to negotiate through conflict with each other." She said, "validate? Negotiate? What is our M a business deal now?" She is not even giving things a chance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of this is CONFLICT.

No one ever said she’s just say “Oh sure, that’s a great idea!” That wouldn’t be conflict, that would be agreement.

You have to go through conflict. What’s wrong with just answering her questions honestly instead of being so offended by them?


“"Why do we have to set time aside, and why do we have to talk about it? We have talked about everything and said everything already. There is nothing more to say."

“Well, I certainly haven’t said everything I’d like to say about our marriage. I would like to set some time aside for us to discuss our M so we can work towards improved communications and being comfortable with talking about the tougher issues. I also need validation of my feelings and needs as well as learn to negotiate through conflict with each other.”

“validate? Negotiate? What is our M a business deal now?”

“No, but I’d like to turn it into a partnership. In order to do that I’d like to have these discussions.”


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I opened up to her and was honest about my feelings, she had to one up me and say she not only feels the same way, but has felt this way for a long time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*shrugs* It might be the truth instead of ‘one-up-manship.’

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She appears to me to have given up, but has not realized it, or is not willing to actually come to grips with it. I view that my continuing to just move forward at the same pace is unfair to me, to her and to our child. I do not want to loose her, but if this is what must happen for her to be happy, I would hate myself for standing in her way. This is unconditional love.... I am not trying to be a marter. I am trying to be the man my W fell in love with and care about her beyond caring about myself, while maintaining personal boundaries with regards to staying in a M that is sexless. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* This is silly. You want to leave the marriage to make her happy. Yet, when you ask HER what she wants, it’s to stay in the marriage.

Look, if you don’t want to stay because your needs aren’t being met, Extremely Lost, then I can respect that. But, don’t tart this up as being all for her benefit and “I do not even know if she will ever realize the sacrifice I am willing to make for her.” If you were really all that altruistic, you’d be willing to remain in a sexless marriage with her if that’s what suited her fancy, wouldn’t you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then she goes about the rest of the day as if nothing has happened. She is slowly killing me and constantly shows no remorse. I am supposed to be paying some big price for some "evil" ways I have treated her, when for most of the time she told me "it was not me." How would you feel if you were in my position? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no idea, I suppose. I’m not you.

I’ve been in similar positions. My H has said and done some really cruel and heartless things (from my perspective) to me. I’ve said and done some really cruel and heartless things to him. Usually, I was frustrated and demoralized (for awhile) and occasionally I have wondered if it’s all worth it (just like everyone else, I suppose).

Do you consider having to ask for and negotiate (through conflict) things that you want punishment?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did not want to continue to "drag her down" by her feeling like I am forcing my desires for a happy M with her. She needs to want this as well or it will never happen. I do not have one foot in the M and one foot out of the M, however, I do evaluate where our M does seem to be and the actions/words my W has offered to help me make a decision of if I actually feel she is making an effort or just playing me. I am trying to be honest, sincere, caring and loving in my words. Not cold, calus and manipulative. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, Extremely Lost, I believe that you were trying to be honest, sincere, caring and loving in that letter you wrote. It came across as manipulative, extremely selfish and self centered, and as though you were calling her ungrateful and insulting her intelligence. I don’t think you meant it to come across that way but, really, it comes across as the opposite of honest.

Stop making this about her. She’s a big girl now. If she really wants out of this marriage, she knows where the door is and she can fill out a divorce form just as easily as you can. You don’t have to do it for her.

On the other hand, if YOU want out of this marriage then step up and do it for YOURSELF. Doing it ‘for her’ is deluding yourself. It’s a sneaky end run around taking responsibility for your own actions in life. Unless she says “I want a divorce but I’m too (stupid, scared, inept) to figure out how to get one done so I need you to do it for me.” quit trying to do her any ‘favors.’

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The message you are suggesting does not seem to convey any of this and at best seems to maintain the status quo... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What part of this list:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) I deeply love my W.

3) I will not stay in the current situation we are in and continue to feel like roomates and a person who's feelings are not right, nor desires incorrect.

4) I will no longer be ashamed for desiring my W sexually.

5) I do wish to live the rest of my life with my W in a happy M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">maintains the status quo? It’s much clearer, much more honest, and much more direct than your letter.

Seriously, if you have to send some message, why not send that one?

Mys