I hope I can receive some feedback from vets. I'm really trying to articulate myself and ask for help here. I know everyone is busy with killing active affairs mostly.

I have isolated our areas of weakness.

Not getting UA time and being accountable to program.

About one month ago Dr Harley asked we fill out a marital analysis. My husband has yet to perform. He has not filled out a love bank analysis 2 years. He waffles on the weekly report. He has not continued to talk with Steve.

He has shown improvements as I have described above.

I don't feel protected yet because he does not create an environment to help. Sometimes I come first and sometimes I do not.

He is extremely focused when he is involved in other things. Perfectionistic behavior.

He fails to get the point across I am valued more then anything when he is hyper focused and busy getting the job done. I get the sense I am standing in the back of the line rather then living in an exclusive place and valued. Given I am standing in the line with everything else I feel 'less then.'

I had always believed this is the way of the good wife especially enhanced via, after all, he is a doctor and needs to help people be well and complete his tasks.

But I know now this is really enabling and devalues our own love units.

I believe my husband is so habituated around my 'place' to morph from going from the front of the line and rallying up to support and getting in back of the line so he can do his thing.

I really just need to know I am in the fast lane with the highest value. I don't mean a neurotic sense of reassurance. Just a smile and "I'm thinking of you" kind of thing.

But the thing that really worries me is his habit of opening his love bank to others. Basically he is in the habit of forgoing true intimacy with me and substituting closeness. So this keeps his door open for new opportunities. He has many opportunities through out his week to receive much approval from others in his life.
He's not in affairs with others, its just that he is substituting this approval that is false intimacy for true intimacy with me.

In other words I perceive he is trying to appear to be on board but still renting. Over and over I have deceived myself to believe this is OK because it appears OK from the outside. But its not. I'm always in pain.

In fact I live with chronic physical pain. A lot of my physical pain can be explained. But this emotional pain is the worst and compounds the physical.

Every time I come into a new awareness or have a breakthrough I get charged up. I figure if only he just understood surely the sense of wanting to be helpful would override and he'd invest in this program as I've seen others here.

So I got this idea after a re reading thru the last chapters of SA this week. The recovery portion. You see I have been asking we create EP's as we are in a new space and I have much higher awareness of this environmental issue.

He seems to believe we are actively following program with glitches here and there when we don't get enough UA time and so on and there is no dire need to write up EP's. I do appreciate EPs are sort of enfolded in the act of spending quality time. Taking UA time is placing 'us' in front of the line and giving value.

The trouble lies with expecting I get in back of the line when we are not having UA time and the quality of the UA time is low. At the same time I am being triggered when he is approached by a non-patient outside work
and he goes into auto pilot to be helpful (like a expert) and a mutual approval seeking becomes a basis for this relationship. I feel like the third wheel especially if I am physically 'there' and not acknowledged.

My husband does not 'see' how what he is doing is a problem because its the way it is when he is seeing patients too.

Anyway, I want to see what anyone thinks I can do here. Just know my husband is claiming he wants to stay in the marriage. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. Talk to him when neither of us are tired, hungry, lonely, or angry. Sell my husband on the benefits for him to change how our Love Banks are operating. Keep it simple and and enjoyable.

2. Set up a call w/Steve. Between myself and Steve or both of us.

I would definitely set a call with Steve. You talk to him alone anyway and Steve is very good with getting reluctant spouses onboard.

Does your WH understand it's his job to make you feel safe in your marriage?

Is he just "going along" with you to get him off his back?

Where are you two when it comes to POJA?

You are in pain because your "Taker" is not satisfied ... this probably means that POJA in not being used as a means to have your ENs met.

POJA POJA POJA

Have you practiced POJA at the grocery market?

Edit to add:

You have probably read this discussion once. Try reading it again, this time concentrating on the POJA elements.

*link* BRF thread with POJA

When you are learning POJA, begin on the smaller ticket items until you become more skilled. MelodyLane had some rather interesting learning moments in the produce department.

Because this situation is going to come up over and over, I suggest you and H POJA a mutually satisfactory solution.

Once you agree on a game plan for this situation, develop some sort of a "signal" so H will recognize when it is time to put that game plan into action. Don't wait until after he's done this again.

All POJA begins with emotional honesty. All emotional honesty begins with self awareness.

We spoke together for the first time in a long time with Steve H this AM.

My husband opened and explained to Steve both love banks are flatlined. We've hit a wall.

Steve spent most of the time asking my husbands questions to understand his perspective and make suggestions and corrections. It was 4 am to 5am in our time zone here when we spoke to him and there is not time for us to debrief after because of work schedules.

To begin Steve asked husband after the statement about flatlining (meaning no pulse/heart has stopped) what our goals are.

My husband began by saying, "Well, I can't say what hers are but...." and at that point Steve cut him off. He explained we are to be working for a common goals.

So he pressed H for our common goal. This took some back and forth discussion. I did write some notes. I'll try to paraphrase. So much is happening during these calls. It was apparent my H has tendency to perceive actions independent of me. Eventually he got to MB type goals w/SH help and he quickly asked me also. ie "build a relationship of extraordinary care so we can be romantically in love and so on."

To SH the conditions for recovery are not being met and my husband is guarded and expresses doubts. I brought up various doubtful statements my husband articulates and Steve would talk about selfishness and being self serving.

I was glad my husband brought up doubtful feelings. At least SH could address. Several times he told my H the program works. He gave him encouragement that we could have a far greater life. We had a lot of discussion around karate and outside relationships becoming dangerous to our relationship and the contrast affect.

I brought up a statement my H commonly states to me: "I don't think I can be married to anyone." (I guess I'm supposed to not take his non-compliance personally w/this statement) And he also stated himself a common line I get: "I think she might be better off with someone else"

SH responded by telling H these statements are not true. Sure I could find someone else to meet needs and so on but someone else would not have the multiplier affect the father of my children has. His efforts to meet my needs go through a multiplier and are far greater then anyone else. Grass is not greener.

I asked about a new statement my husband has started to use: "I'm not well" (because he believes he needs to exercise more ie go to karate more) SH bluntly says this is more about selfish needs.


He asked about recreational activities we enjoyed together. My husband was silent. I listed several things we've done lately. I told SH about work schedule that limits personal time. This means the little time we have for one another is impacted and very finite. Yes, there is time for uA 15. So karate has been an independent orientation and does not fulfill UA time making it difficult.

There was discussion about my husband quiting karate. My husband said "no." Steve really sounded exasperate with my husbands stubborness and even admitted the program would not help w/his doubts and selfishness. He said my husband would not experience the pain or is not having this experience himself but is leaving me in a very traumatic state.

SH told us about the death of "The Great Walinda"

GW was a type rope walker and a serious dare devil. (Hmmmm..my husband is a dare devil too.) One day he was type roping between two buildings and a wind hit. GW was wobbling and off balanced. He lost his balance and fell to his death. There was an investigation. It was found he had held on too long to his balance beam and did not let go in time to grab the wire!

This was sH analogy (he likes analogies) for my husband perhaps holding onto his beam (karate) too long!

I brought up my traumatic experience with the ambivalence and doubts negatively affecting recovery. I said it would appear my fault this whole thing is not working. I have tried and tried to make karate work well. Initially SH suggested we try a new dojo together and my H job at new dojo was to help me be happy. But my H had lots of good reason to avoid and concluded it is not his job.

SH told H I should be treated like the queen of England due to my efforts to learn and attend karate. As it is he did not /has not appreciates and seriously give me points as he'd done with the women at other dojo.

We had some discussion about activating too friendly relationships w/OW when involved with activities. He explained to my husband its the conditions created that turn a seemingly innocent relationship into something else even though it might seem natural.

He also had earlier discussed this issue of creating for us conditions that will create romantic love for one another. I forgot to say this is one of my husbands many doubts: if he is not in love it means we can't become in love again.

So SH patiently explained he was not in love w/me when we met either. He had been meeting my needs!

STeve directed us to the 4 rules of successful negotiation and of course POJA would go along.

My husband is super stubborn to the point of sometimes being dangerous to himself and others. Too much in his own head gets him in trouble. Like I said SH was maybe annoyed a bit too. He told us this situation where a spouse is this locked down who is using the program is rare.

I am really scared. I feel alone except for this forum . This "affair" situation was never one where I could expose because there was nothing to expose. There is no support w/immediate family and friends.

I am ready willing and able to operate this program fully on a dime and I'm doing my best to keep it up on my side. The answer from the Harley's is for my husband to quit karate and us have a new RC w/both thoroughly enjoy. Sounds fine with me.

Then just as I'm ready to act on my husbands stubbornness and go to plan B, see attorney he agrees to the program again. Now even though my husband is showing some sign he is "on board"---seems like I can expect more the same.

I figure we'll debrief tonight. If the first thing out of his mouth in terms of following SH suggestion is not about digging into the program and negotiating solutions...and he says something self oriented, I'm getting a new plan going.

So if you give yourself a time limit (in X amount of time to see the actions from WH), then proceed to next step.

If he doesn't engage by X time limit then I will proceed to (your next plan of action).

How much UA time are you two getting?

How is YOUR health?

UA time varies. We shoot for 1 hour weekday and the rest over the weekend. But the biggest issue is with 'quality' during time together.

My health is an issue. Chronic pain. There are known physical causes. I believe the stress aggravates.

Yes, I keep telling myself, OK give this XYZ time and then go forward. This prolonged so call recovery is a hardship. Its traumatic.

Thanks for weighing in.

Yes, they say recovery isn't for wimps.

I've had many of many wise posters and including Dr. H tell me. Yes walking away would be easier....

Steve Harley is very good with reluctant spouses.

I knew you suffered with chronic pain and I know stress will exacerbate and worry about you.

Quick catch up. Have another appointment this week together w/Steve.

I created 3 X 5 cards and asked husband various questions about his EA three years ago. A Q per card. I figured I had nothing to lose to ask what the mystery has been all about. I did not make it a demand. I told him to decide if he wants to tell me and come to me if/when ready.

He decided to answer my questions right then. Seems he had the same feeling of having nothing to lose.

Some information was hurtful. A lot was healing and validating. It was nice to be at a point we could listen and get on the same page. Understand his EA from a together perspective.

It was hard to learn my husband reopened his old email account and contacted AP a few times since last summer. But it explains my uneasiness and sense of urgency for EPs. Also explains the ambivalence.

Still, I'd say this sad news was less trauma and more helpful to our relationship. He had told himself he has not been hurting anyone because he did not feel he'd crossed the line. Had not told AP his feelings etc. He'd walled me off and I guess that was OK to deceive me. He says he is glad to tell me now. Like me-- he'd felt alone. He'd made these email contacts to keep up friendship in case things didn't work out for us!

I'll take this one day at a time. I appreciate his authentic self possibly returning. I'll be verifying.

OMG!!! Graceful, No wonder your marriage has been limping along for the last three years. Your husband attended the weekend, knew the effect of contacting OW and keeping the door open for a relationship withher and did it anyway. He won't quit the karate, he maintains contact with OW and won't commit to the marriage. Your husband has been unspeakably cruel for more than three years. If you have never read it, take a look at the false recovery thread. And I will say the same thing that I said to you last year. Plan B is way overdue.

AM

Here.
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience
How to Plan B Correctly

I completely agree this has been a FR and yes I've read and read and read the FR thread (thanks).

However, at this point the news does not represent total collapse. Yes, army mama this deception represents cruelty. But I wrote the questions in compassion towards my husband too. I needed to hear his truth as much as he needed to tell me.

Our discussion Sat was nothing like anything we have had in along long time. It was real and honest and supportive and healing. My husband was so relieved and unburdened. No more walls.

At this point, due to deceptions and FR, I may not appear a credible witness here.
Of course I'd appreciate positive support here and I know the recommended formula. I do not believe I am being sold or selling out.

I do not have lots of time to say much more right now. But know my husband IS stepping out of a role he's been trapped. Our banks are filling up right now. Its like my husbands soul was split in two and now its not. He's not just saying sorry and going back to doing his thing as always has been done and quickly rendering my doubts. This time does not resonate a 'come to Jesus' moment to manipulate more.

Certainly the stakes are high. This could be the ultimate act of emotional cruelty. I stand ready to act if this is the case.

Graceful,

If your H is serious about your marriage, he will quit the karate. Will he quit the karate?

AM

To my ears, this means you have a plan. What is your plan?

He has not quit karate and does not plan to quit karate. Its possible this unwillingness to quit measures his intent. Its possible it does not.

The projection is--- karate reminds me and triggers in me a reminder of this other woman. The other projection is ---karate reminds my husband of this woman and this leaves him linked to this woman. As a result, the environment associated with karate sets us both off and recovery cannot be obtained as long as my husband is involved in karate.

Its become an absolute here for our recovery to be legit. But we've all held onto a false impression here. Maybe this OW has lingered in the environment like a hologram and ruined karate for him/us. Or maybe she has simply lingered on because my husband keeps emailing her and starts the cycle over. He's an infidel and does not seem to be able to compartmentalize and connect with me while maintaining contacts w/OW. Hence historically I find myself feeling I'm on the dark side of a triangle and pursue him to reconnect with me.

Indeed my H has acted selfishly, like an addict when it comes to both karate and this woman. Because he attended this old dojo and both became 'addicted to karate' and 'addicted to this woman' both at great offense to me he had to leave this old dojo. And he had to cut off contact with this woman in any fashion and follow no contact agreement plus apply the entire MB program.

He did leave this dojo as a member but would now and then find a way to drop in.
Of course this became part of EP --no dropping in. About 6 months into D-day I found he'd been in email contact. At that point I asked him to work with me and we would let this woman know he had to stop the communications. Unfortunately he did this on his own which upset me because--well, you know. We closed his personal email account to help the cause. About 1 year post D-day I found he had
emailed through his business email. I confronted him about this and it was determined this was an older email transaction. But I kept an eye on this email account. This past summer he reopened his old email account and sent this woman a email to say happy b-day and check in. She wrote back and gave an update about herself and family life. And this past December at the point I came here and started this thread, he'd received an email from OW wishing him a Merry Xmas and again updating on how life was for herself, about family and so on. My husband wrote her back and told of our lives.

I know these b-day/holiday greetings could be perceived as platonic. I say my husband and this OW have been deceiving themselves.

The following are my notes from the questions I asked him Sat. He is relating his perceptions at the given time periods which do not reflect his growth and understanding of what makes a good marriage work today. He does understand its entirely possible to recover if he chooses to and I am yet willing:

-Husband did not verbally indicate his feelings to OW.
-No sexual contact. Did fantasize.
-2 year acquaintance
-6 mo romantic feeling
-Did not love her, says barely knew her or just superficial.
-Very interested and thought a lot about the enjoyment of pursuing relationship if both parties were available in the future
-felt a chemistry between them
-no longer feels a desire or obligation to protect or encourage this OW's goals at old dojo.
-she discussed physical maladies w/H and H related my physical maladies to evoke understanding and empathy towards her or to be charming.

-thought she was attractive, admired several qualities such as intense athleticism,
"nice person"
-H indicated to the general membership at this old dojo "I'm in the doghouse" (spending too much time away from home and more time at dojo.
-OW was a 'hugger' to all.
-While a member at this old dojo OW did not appear to show more affection towards H than other members
-After advising (2010 D-day) me of his feelings toward AP and 'taking a break' from old dojo in winter 2010, H told AP our marriage was in trouble and we were going to use MB. OW checked out the site and indicated her approval and wished for him to regain what we once had.
-At one point in 2010 before advising me of his feelings toward this woman H and AP worked on a project together briefly. He felt closer to her, enjoyed good feelings and more intrigued after she talked more about herself and her background. They were alone at the dojo to put a piece of exercise equipment together as a gift to the owner. At of completion of project she offered a typical hug.
-H motivated to maintain contact through email on going off and on from 2010 to Dec 2013 to maintain signaling of interest in case our marriage ended. Would update one another with basic facts about their lives and interests. 'Appear' platonic
-Did not feel guilt or perceive a marital betrayal because he did not outwardly act on his inclinations and feelings. Compartmentalized the absence of emotional connection and motivations to stay unconnected to me /or maintain a relentless fantasy type loyalty to AP.
-Disassociated our marital problems from his EA.
-Told himself "I'm outtahere" (marriage) before EA and while I was very ill and repeatedly I requested a need for emotional support. He felt he was doing enough (by acting in doctor role at home and work) and I was impossible and mean to want more from him.
-Giving up on our hopeless bad marriage afforded freedom to pursue self interests
-Old dojo was for profit. Expected significant time commitment, lots of repetition, loyalty to dojo and membership, team building and bonding, peppered with humiliation in subtle and not so sublte ways. In our case, not marriage friendly environment. Perfect storm to use healthy activity as a way out.


Outcome from questioning:
-Says will not contact AP any more.
-Feels telling the truth and not being secretive has made all the difference.
-Will advise me if gets the urge to contact AP.
-Will advise of OW making contact or running into OW.
-Claims to be sorry and on board to rebuild marriage.
-Does not associate karate activity with EA.
-Does not compare/contrast me to AP
-Feels relief to get the truth out
-Is excited to go forward with me
-Wants to have a marriage that is enviable ---with me
-Believes me to be the one for him
-Showing empathy and care to me
-Is willingly following program
-shows excitement and expressing positive emotions
-not pressing to make karate central to our lives
-involved in other RC activities with me, i.e. hiking, travel, gardening
-we practice karate together
-he is mindful to make sure I am having a good time.
-Is 'seeing' and translating through my perspective not simply his own


Armymama, thank you for being there with me and for me. I know you want the best for me and have concern I will be hurt more then I already have been. I do appreciate the karate element could be a risk management issue. But part of me feels karate is also good for me too. In a sense I feel we here have deluded ourselves to believe 'if only he'd quit karate and focus on another RC activity -this marriage would take off.' But getting the truth and understanding the deception has thus far (because I am living it) been the most freeing and happy making.

Yes, I believe I do. And I appreciate your asking.

-15 + hours UA time per week.
-Continue the MB lessons
-POJA
-PORH
-EPs well followed
-keyloggers
-proactively identify and create plan to manage outside marital intrusions so they don't become triangles and toxify our environments.
-show on-going progress
-shift to plan B if:
-waffling program
-no contact rule broken

Also recently it has helped us a lot to have more privacy. Our adult daughter finally moved out. H could triangulate with her. Hard on all of us.

We met with Steve H. H disclosed dishonesty and waywardness. There was a lot of discussion about justification and self deception.

It was positive in that we basically found ourselves on the same page to clean up ourselves so we can clean up the marriage and go forward.

The general 'plan' right now is for us each to separately create a written strategy to guarantee our future success. We are also assigned to retake the EN questionnaire. We will meet Steve again in two weeks with our plans and so on.

I am suspending any reactionary responses (sticks) to waywardness other then these assignments and sticking to UA time and other positive elements. Steve is doing a good job catching my husbands attention and aggressively hitting hard with truths and he is responding well. Of course the real world application will be key.

At one point Steve told H his pattern of triangulating, seeking something better is only helping me to 'be perfect' out of fear of pain.

We did not go into this karate issue in this conversation. But the fear of pain thing caught my attention. I'm sure this 'fear' creates distortions and irrational behaviors in myself.

The following have been my fears:

-Personally stopping attending karate will help me feel worse then ever. Even more on the outside of my husbands world because he won't step up and seek to connect.
-H won't show outward anger towards me for not being involved, he'll become more involved with other members then me.
-I personally will miss the practical benefits of the practice
-sense husband will choose karate over me

Now we have a new paradigm. Ongoing waywardness revealed . My husband has articulated to me through words and action a serious commitment to our marriage. Of course I do not want to operate based out of fear anymore. Ouch.

I do know I can't tolerate triangulations w/activity itself and other members. This is true in other environments as well. My husband has difficulty staying 'sober' in lots of circumstances really. He's got a lot of work to do and so do I.

Its been over 1 year since I began this recovery thread. A lot has happened. All the above posts show we were not in recovery.

My Dad died about a month after this last posting on this general forum. This happened not long after my husband had admitted he had kept some email contact with OW to 'check in'

My FOO are provincial. I am the only female in a large family. My husband was appalled to witness my being treated at the time of this loss by my mother and brothers with such disrespect and lack of caring to get their needs met. I was bullied. I really felt devastated and alone. My husbands fog seemed to begin to lift.

Recently my husband read Dr Harleys new book He Wins/She Wins and was really jazzed. I still can't believe the difference. Even better he has finally agreed to stop attending the dojo. A long time recommendation of Dr Harley.

I have to admit there are habits to learn and LB to eliminate. Its going to take time for my heart to soften. I'm doing pretty well respectfully complaining. One of the hard things is the pace my husband is operating from. Allowing himself to go slow to eliminate LB and retool with new habits. I'm tired and worn down from pain and feel a bigger sense of urgency. Still I'm grateful to have him on board and I'm surprised he is willing to give up karate and try to new kinds of RA together.

Is he still in contact with OW?
You cant be in recovery until there is No Contact.
Thats the first step.

Has he been gaslighting you over the past year?