Thanks Brains

Hey Indie! I have been enjoying following your thread and would just like to share with you my caution as well. I, like you and SmilingWoman, fell into an amazing relationship after my first divorce. And I'd done a good job of waiting and working on myself to get "ready." It was a year after my divorce before I even started dating! I didn't know about Dr. Harley then, but I knew I needed to date a variety and not compromise. I went on dates with about ten individuals, most just a single date, but three I saw more than once, then two regularly, then I let my relationship with one become physical and immediately got overwhelmed with the feeling of love, the euphoria of it. In my situation, birth control failed a few months into our intense relationship, and by then red flags were appearing but I failed to address them because the highs were so high, so to speak. We got married...this is HAM I'm talking about. The next few years was a matter of bailing a sinking ship...but I always thought it was just a little leak (to extend the metaphor!) and not a previously undetected structural flaw...so the ship sank around me. Even now, I'm sort of in a state of disbelief and struggling to accept that my dear husband is not who I thought he was...and not even the man HE thought he was. We did live as buyers for quite a long time in there as well, even had no conflicts (I mean no fights or disagreements of any sort...excellent example of extraordinary care) for the first few years. And it tumbled apart relatively quickly because I hadn't been able to see the red flags that, looking back, are so obvious. Also, I am like you in having quirky interests and not fitting a mold, and my beloved was happy to suggest and go along with a whole variety of wonderful things...but that recreational companionship couldn't outlast his eventual depression and other issues that had been well masked at the beginning.

I'm sharing this cautionary tale to just say...there are a lot more people than you would believe who are amazing recreational companions, who you will have chemistry with, who everything will seem easy with. Because the beginning of a relationship should be that way...isn't that why so many fall into affairs? I just think the whole idea of exclusivity, proposed by you artist man after you had told him you planned to date a variety of people, is a big red flag that you should cautiously explore, rather than dismiss. And I'm not trying to dredge up an old issue on your thread....but I figure my tale is worth sharing because it mirrors yours, at least at the beginning, and I wish someone had noticed and harped on red flags for me when I was not in a position to see them myself.

This might be it. Let me know.

Radio Clip About how the Forum Works

Thanks JV. I do agree that some red flags take time to show themselves. I also think letting an unproven relationship become physical helps to mask those red flags. I am so appreciative to you for adding this advice to my thread. It will help a lot of people.

I did consider taking him up on his offer to remain friends so I could continue the 30 dates. I also considered dropping him and calling him back up at some point in the future. But I want to get to know him. The reporter in me wants to follow up this lead. I want to spend time with him, ask him questions. And I absolutely want to keep my eyes peeled for red flags. Absolutely. I won't let any pass me by if I spot one. I don't feel I can look for them from a distance, so I am spending time with him one on one instead.

Jen if it isn't too much trouble, could you describe the traits that made you believe your H was a buyer? Did he always follow POJA for example, right up until marriage? What red flags did you ignore.

I know these specifics are dotted throughout your thread, but I think it would be of great use to a good many people if you could give us a synopsis here.

Thank you!

Hey IG, I just got caught up, and WOWZA.

I am sorry that I wasn;t here to offer support for you when you were discussing the "exclusive" part, because I took it more like you aren't really into casual dating, which I don't think I would be very fond of myself. So you intend to date one person at a time, and see where it goes.

I think that the best part about the 30 dates plan is that you may not actually know what ways men can meet your ENs the best. You may think that you do, and that would be because of things your ExWH did or didn't do during your marriage. Right now, I'm assuming that you are comparing Artist to your Ex. I bet Artist is coming out with flying colours, and why wouldn't he? This is just the beginning of a relationship, and it may lead you somewhere, and it may not.

I see that you keep stating that the 30 dates things isn't off of the table, and that Artist knows this to be true. I bet that is making him want to work harder to keep you interested and him as the only option. That could be good, just remember to take it slow.

I bet you were finding it amazing to have some ENs met after so long. You even admitted to becoming drunken on it. You even admitted that this could cause you to cloud your judgement, and I think that is what is happening with the posters here who are trying to steer you away from this. It's almost like you are in a fog, and there are concerns that you may get hurt. That is where that is all coming from, but I am certain that you know that, deep down.

Unfortunately for you, you began this thread with some convictions that you were going to date 30 men, and that you weren;t going to get serious, and quickly, you found someone who shook your plan, and you decided to change it. Only now, your previous words are there to be used against you. Posters aren't using them to punish you, or harm you however. They only want to protect you. Remember what we often tell people on their thread on SAA, that when something someone posts to you makes you angry, and want to spit glass, there may be something in there that you need to examine to see why you have reacted that way. Look closely at the posts that upset you the most, and figure out why.

Let's use a more MB approach to Artist in deciphering his EN meeting potential, and in case this doesn't work out, you will know what to look for in the next suitable match.

How does he meet ENs? For funzies, list all 10, and let us know how he meets them.

Also, as a potential spouse for him, how are you able to meet his ENs?

This is about learning what you can offer someone else as much as it is about what someone else can offer you.

Indie, forgive the board their reaction. Liken your "exclusive" update to me telling the board that I have now come out of Plan B, and am communicating directly with my WH. Don't worry, I haven't, but what would YOUR reaction have been had I stated that?

As always, I am looking out for ya, as a Big sister would.

Awesome

Oh that is a fantastic idea. I will definitely list out some MB criteria. I wouldn't use my exes ability at needs meeting as a bar, That would not be a VERY poor standard, but certainly not adequate.

I think I will list out ENs, the four rules of care and the five standards of compatibility, plus relationship attitude traits (if I'm missing anything, please let me now peeps)

Not today though, we're going out to take pictures.

It's my birthday. And I am a very happy Valentines Day child...

friend and have a wonderful time.

Indie

Thank you, guys!

I haven't been able to catch up on all 22 pages of the thread, but this part rings true to me. I was awestruck by the first couple of guys I dated after becoming single because they met ENs that had gone unmet for a long time. Each experience was awesome, alluring, exquisite, all the good stuff. Each guy was "I never met anyone like HIM before" felt from the bottom of my heart.

Fast forward a couple years... Last year I took someone's advice to just go out with anyone who asks and don't "go exclusive" unless there was a real potential for marriage. I did just that- went on 23 first dates (many second and third dates and a handful of guys that made it past 4+) and learned a LOT about men who can meet needs without even seemingly trying. And now I'm in a relationship where my boyfriend of 8 months has dropped the M word.

I learned something that was stated above:

So I encourage you to follow the advice offered here. If Artist is "the one," I suspect he will understand you've come through a rough patch and will wait the time it takes for you to "work through the process," even if he doesn't agree with the part of the process that includes going on 30ish dates.

Sure! HAM and I discussed everything and were both (seemingly) enthusiastic. We did a ton of fun things that was stuff my friends would roll their eyes at but was super cool and important to me. He seemed to value/treasure me. I didn't know Dr.Harley concepts so his absolute radical honesty is unusual, and I've since found out things that HAM didn't tell me (but I didn't think to ask, either). I was intrigued by his work and saw him as skilled and a craftsman (which he is) but I didn't think long term about how his skill would play out in down economies. And of course I couldn't know how he would be unwilling to get different skills for a more stable job to support our family when the economy tanked. When we first met, he was self-employed and I was impressed with that...but later when his clients dried up he can't seem to hold down a job working for a boss. When he's previously explained his multiple jobs prior to going out on his own with reasonable explanations that he switched for better pay/conditions, I think now that it was him leaving one place before they let him go, and finding work because his skillset is rare.

While we used POJA fine for every day things, I didn't see for years later that he wouldn't consult me about big things...accepting a job, starting renovations on our house or boat (he started but never finished, destroying the value in both, and did so in ways that he couldn't put it back together). In the first year or so he seemed really interested in things I was interested in, but later he could care less.

Basically, he put on a good show and did everything well until I was stuck. And then he devolved from buyer to free loader. We did make mistakes Dr. Harley could identify, like moving in before marriage. But even those things came down the road. And I'll admit, when I fell for him I fell hard, I still miss him terribly and still feel a huge connection to him despite what he did to us all, an almost spiritual/electrical connection.

Anyway, I hope that helps you or someone else. hope you had an awesome birthday, Indie!!

Jen I dont have much time to give a full response today, but I just wanted to say I think your post is amazing and will be really helpful..

Hi Indie, Hope you enjoyed your birthday!

How goes it, Indie?

Yes, Indie, how are you?

Super duper busy. Everything is rosy with me, or will be when the legalities relating to the finances of my divorce are finally sorted. And I get a new job.

I got my IM to threaten court action recently which led to a Plan B break when Softlad emailed me directly back. However the threat seems to have worked and he is FINALLY ready to exchange documents. It seems his lawyer only told him two weeks ago that we are divorced.

I've also been working around the clock trying to jump start my dead career. Seeing artistman has given me a kick in the pants because he's so encouraging and is trying to give me a boost in spite of all the job rejection I've encountered.

He�s always taking me to artsy, free, cool events so I�ve started a blog about things to do in Liverpool. He�s also arranged for us to volunteer to publicise a festival and I'm hoping this will improve my CV so I can put an end to the crushing radio silence I�m encountering whenever I apply for stuff.

After he saw some sketches I did as a teenager, he's also been really encouraging about exhibiting and selling some art myself. I don't think I am good enough for that, and I am so rusty but he says I should do it for myself, if nothing else.

The volunteering was free tickets to a good gig if nothing else. I've been told my own personal blog is funny and I've had a whole 20 views on one record breaking day! The blog I wrote for the official festival gig got 600 views though! That was compared to an average of 30 per post. It was my words and artistman's pictures combined so we have seemingly made a good team.

After months of procrastination I�ve also applied for three jobs this week. So that makes three job applications this past six months in total! Partly because AM spots really cool jobs that would suit me through his Twitter followings and partly because he nags me when he comes round to get on my laptop and do it while he makes me dinner/fancy coffee as motivation. So you never know what will happen. I�m feeling better just for being more proactive.

The Plan B break did affect me a little. Especially some nonsense about how �we always got on well� (aside from the lying, cheating and gaslighting that is) and �I will let you be� (why are you pestering me then!!?).

I also have lots of plans with friends to go away this year on some nice weekends. The 'be good to yourself' Plan B mantra should never end, I say.

thanks for the update, indie. it's good to hear things are going well with you. did you feel that you were able to deal with the aftertaste of speaking with softlad ok?

ps: radio silence after sending out 0 CVs is probably standard 3 may do you a little better!

It's like anything. Aftertaste fades if you put the poisoned chalice down, ear shattering noise stops if you turn the radio off and wounds heal if you don't pick at them.



It was not very logical, I know but I developed a full tilt aversion to completing weighty application forms for absolutely zero reward. Plus I stopped seeing anything at ALL to apply for.

Am brings a fresh perspective. All the people in my field are looking in the same places for jobs, because we think the same way. Whereas Am has a slightly different outlook and is coming across jobs I wouldn't have even seen. But which actually suit me better. I have to just start thinking of completing the task and TRYING as its own reward.