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I like NG's suggestion. Discuss a mutually satisfactory schedule. And, it's vitally important you have this discussion WITH ALL YOUR CLOTHES ON, and seated at the dining table, not in bed. Like every POJA negotiation, it begins with questions: "I would like to have sex about every (frequency). How do you feel about this? How often would you like to have sex?" Print out Dr Harley's POJA guidelines, and you BOTH follow the guidelines.
Guidelines for POJA
Guideline 1
Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.
...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.
...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.
~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~
Guideline 2
Identify the problem from both perspectives.
Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.
Harley says
Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.
It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.
(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)
Guideline 3
Brainstorm with abandon
This is the creative part.
Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.
The goal is to please both of you.
Harley says
The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.
It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.
VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***
Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other. It seems to contrived to schedule sex but it may be what we need right now. I will bring it up.
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It seems to contrived to schedule sex but it may be what we need right now. I will bring it up. It's actually very exciting! When you plan for it, you look forward to it. That way you can schedule it for a time when you look and feel your best. It reduces anxiety about finding the time to squeeze it in. IT should be planned as an "event" at the end of romantic date night. We much PREFER it this way.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You do understand the concept of the Love Bank correct? How each little LB puts a hole in your bucket and the love you have for him seeps out? Can you not see how his annoying habits could kill the love you have for him?
I know it isn't for everyone ... to have to have these discussions about every little thing. It gets annoying to have to defend why what our spouses do is annoying to us. But it is worth it in the end. You just have to muddle through these conflicts. It�s the only way you�ll be able to see him in a different light. That he�s a man of change and as such he�ll continue to get better and he�s worth opening your heart to.
As far as him lecturing you when you deny meeting his EN for SF. I strongly suggest you schedule it. It is how the counselors approached my marital situation. Take the guess work out of it for both of you. Work together to develop the mood you need prior to SF. Teamwork. Not him waiting and then asking and you saying no and him getting ticked off. Take the uncomfortableness of the situation out of it. Schedule it.
[/quote]
Yes, the concept of the LB makes sense. But it feels like nagging when you complain about leaving dirty clothes behind the door so the door doesn't even open all the way or having to clean up after someone all the time. Maybe it's all in how you say it.
Last edited by feuillecouleur; 03/20/13 06:34 AM.
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Yes, the concept of the LB makes sense. But it feels like nagging when you complain about leaving dirty clothes behind the door so the door doesn't even open all the way or having to clean up after someone all the time. Maybe it's all in how you say it. Complaints are good for marriage! You are right that its all in how you say it. Complaining in Marriage
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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All right, before getting into the issues with LBs, and DJs here in MB 201 - Pitfalls, let's review the pre-requisite course, MB 101 - Why Marriage?
People selfishly (if unconsciously) give up their absolute freedom and irrationally tie themselves to another human to establish a reliable source of what is, to each individual, a unique set of requirements, called Emotional Needs, or ENs.
Presumably, among your BH's top ENs is the desire/need for Sexual Fulfillment. (FC, are you taking notes this time?) Depending on the frequency of his expectation, and translation into a request, and the probability of your declining the request (hence denying his need), it is HIGHLY likely he will become frustrated with your participation in what is, whether you care to acknowledge it or not, part of the marital contract. BTW: His calling up statistics on sexual activity in your age-group nationally would be a lecture. His saying, "I would like more SF," is NOT a lecture; it is a complaint. (Get mad at me all you want for THIS lecture, FC. I don't really care!)
I don't know what his level of need in this area is. I don't know how often you accommodate his request. But obviously your and his expectation in this matter is seriously "off".
As crass as this sounds (and I can almost guarantee you won't agree to execute it, so it doesn't bother me to be crass), why don't you and BH sit down and discuss a rough schedule of satisfaction. It does NOT have to be "Every Saturday night, and every other Wednesday evening," or anything that specific, but if his position is "twice a day", and yours is "once a month" you and he will at least have isolated an issue clearly that would need addressing.
Or, if your positions remain intransigently that far apart, save the rest of the rancor and discord, and dissolve the marriage. [/quote]
It's been a problem in our marriage since the beginning and we've never been able to come up with a mutually agreeable solution.
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Complaints are good for marriage! You are right that its all in how you say it. Complaining in Marriage [/quote]
This is excellent! Thanks ML!
Last edited by feuillecouleur; 03/20/13 06:42 AM.
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...we've never been able to come up with a mutually agreeable solution.
Obviously. But now you're here, and the ideas for solutions are being provided for you and BH to act on.
Look, (staying focused on the SF issue for now) do you think all of us out here have infinite time and availability for sexual impulse-satisfaction? Do you think that all of us have ideally-aligned needs/expectations in that area? What we DO have, is the willingness to respect our spouses' legitimate marital desires, and the commitment to satisfy them.
As Bride and I took the ENQs, I learned for the first time that her need for security was much higher than I would have expected, and one of my failures in this matter was not religiously wearing a seat-belt while driving. This had bothered her for 40 years without her telling me. I STILL dislike wearing one, but my dislike is so much less important than her need for me to be safe, that there is no way I will forego doing so. I remember with each "click" that she loves me that much.
If your BH's "seat belt" concern is a greater frequency of SF, maybe you will find it ultimately pleasurable to know he wants you as much as he does, and find yourself equivalently "buckling up" with more enthusiasm.
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It seems to contrived to schedule sex but it may be what we need right now. Cooking a delicious gourmet meal involves planning and preparation.  But, the food tastes wonderful! Mr Pep is a joke teller. He told my BIL a joke about an all men's marriage support group at a church. The leader was discussing sex in marriage. The leader asked the men to raise their hands if they have sex every night. Some happy hands went up. He asked, "3 times a week?" More hands went up. "4 times a month?" Hands went up. This went on for awhile. Finally, the group leader said (with a saddened tone) "Well (pause and sigh) are there any marriages that only have sex once a year?" . One man shot his hand in the air and was practically jumping out of his seat he was so excited. "Me! Me! Me!" The church leader said, "I don't understand why you are so happy about this. It's only once a year." The man replied ........ What's my point? Well ....... ever since Mr Pep told that joke one of us will text the other ..... and even thought this may seem contrived .... it's a hell of a lot of fun. Then, we plan .......... to prepare our gourmet meal. 
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Pepperband, that was great! What a wonderful way to look at making love - like a gourmet meal that takes time to prepare.
FC, we used to try and be spontaneous, too. My H loved making love just as we went to bed (all that visual stimulation and proximity.) Only, I was quite tired at the end of the day and most often really didn't feel like it at that time. Mostly it turned out to be early Saturday mornings and hardly any other time.
Now we always plan our SF. Scheduling it turns out to be so helpful. H always knows it's happening and when, which relieves any of his anxieties.
And since I know about it, too, I am mentally prepared and make sure I'm not too tired. I have time to get myself in the mood and not be in the middle of anything, like cooking or a project.
Scheduling sex doesn't have to feel contrived at all. It's actually rather fun. If we know one of our SF "dates" is going to be Sunday afternoon, we'll sit out on our porch for a bit, maybe with a glass of wine, and talk for a while, holding hands, looking at each other. And one thing leads to another,that we already knew was going to happen. The timing works out great.
Married 1980
DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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I know it is a triggery subject, but I'd just like to add that scheduled sex is exactly what affair partners do - and that must be a big part of the thrill.
They schedule to meet in a hotel on Thursday afternoon, and all day they prepare for, and anticipate, the event. There is teeth-brushing and leg-waxing. Perhaps text messages are sent. It is all they can think about all day.
If that can be so appealing and stimulating, then so can scheduled sex in marriage.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I know it is a triggery subject, but I'd just like to add that scheduled sex is exactly what affair partners do - and that must be a big part of the thrill.
They schedule to meet in a hotel on Thursday afternoon, and all day they prepare for, and anticipate, the event. There is teeth-brushing and leg-waxing. Perhaps text messages are sent. It is all they can think about all day.
If that can be so appealing and stimulating, then so can scheduled sex in marriage. SC, I think you nailed it 
Me - BH 49 years old
Her - WW 43 years old
Married 20 years
D Day Jan 7, 2013
3 kids - DS19, DS17, DS12
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And another thing:
The best sex you will ever have in your life is within your marriage. There is no better sex to be had than with the man who publicly pledges his commitment to you daily by living his life as your husband, and who is the father of your children. He is not some weasel who hides you in the dark and only takes you to restaurants where nobody knows either of you (if he takes you to a restaurant at all. Be honest: how much of the sex with the other man involved "get in, get it on, go home"?)
The best sex a woman can ever have is with the man who loved her when she was young, loves her now she is older with a post-childbirth body, and does not need her to be perfectly plucked, waxed, botoxed and hair-dyed to love her for life. You can be yourself with him - and you can be Miss Moneypenny when you play out your sexual fantasies with him if that's your pleasure.
OM are cowardly weasels who take what they can from you and dump you and run back to their wives when the going gets tough. Sex with them is so good because the silly WW spends a week preparing herself and pretending that he oh, so, turns her on just by looking at her. He, meanwhile, is just using her as a vessel in which to discharge his bodily fluids. A toilet-wipe, in fact.
There is no comparison between the artifice of an affair and real lovemaking with the man you can trust always to be there for you. That's a simple fact.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Two things struck me when I read your posts...
1. You're totally discounting Annoying habits as a love buster. Have you read love busters? I think it is probably the thing you are prepared to sacrifice on because you have some preconceived notion that you shouldn't get divorced over socks. Well the issue isn't socks, it's the way you're treated when you complain about the socks.
2. You seem to be a conflict avoider. True? I can't find the conflict avoidance post, BH can you link it? Thanks. Avoiding conflict isn't the answer.
Me BW: 30
WH: 33
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Two things struck me when I read your posts...
1. You're totally discounting Annoying habits as a love buster. Have you read love busters? I think it is probably the thing you are prepared to sacrifice on because you have some preconceived notion that you shouldn't get divorced over socks. Well the issue isn't socks, it's the way you're treated when you complain about the socks.
2. You seem to be a conflict avoider. True? I can't find the conflict avoidance post, BH can you link it? Thanks. Avoiding conflict isn't the answer. Here it is. Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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...it's the way you're treated when you complain about the socks.
I object! This assumes facts not in evidence. It is, as you point out, fairly likely that FC has a high dosage of "conflict avoidance". FC herself has indicated her pleasure at reading of, and learning, how to effectively, respectfully, complain. Given those two facts (c/a and lack of knowledge about effective complaining) it would be significantly more likely that there was no MB-consistent "complaint" registered, so debating whatever "treatment" is being projected is moot.
Meanwhile, this tack removes the focus from the real thrust that must be followed - FC is a potentially recovering WS whose admission here is that she fails to feel attraction for her BH, and has so far not here agreed to follow my brilliant suggestion (accorded such laud by PB!) that she and TFT actually jointly treat SF as a requirement of their marriage, and managed to some sort of POJA'd schedule.
So, unless FC has given TFT her "Key EN" list, with DS as number one, and FC has pointed out that the sock placement was a major LB on that basis, there will be time to sort the socks later!
So, FC, are you and hubby yet in agreement about tentative SF frequency?
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I brought it up last night but we never reached an agreement.
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DS wasn't my number one, IC was.
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