SD,

I do think you should take a break from him but I still think before you do you should send him an email letting him know that you are on on this site and getting help to rebuild yourself.

That you would love to rebuild your marriage as well but just can't do it while your H is being so hateful and violent towards you. Remind him again that you do take responsibility for your actions and are sorry for what you did (that is why you are on MB and trying to change). I would also throw in Dr. H and his offer to help.

In this same email I would tell him that your heart and arms are open to him and your marriage but right now you can't and don't deserve his verbal abuse. Until it stops and he can control himself, you will not be speaking to him.

As NG said I would remind him that the money he is giving you is for the well being of your DD. That you would be more than happy to POJA selling the house or making other arrangements but not if he is going to bully you and abuse you.


Again, i would send this in an email and then not respond or talk to him. You may even want to find a mediator (Plan B).

He dropped of our DD tonight and wanted his mandolin. He was teaching me to play a while back right before the A occurred. He left it when he left the house. Now he wants it back to sell it. I told him I would buy it from him.

He just hung around the house like staring and watching me and my DD for about 20 minutes. I didn't say much to him. He didn't want to sell the mandolin to me and I wouldn't let him take it. So silly I know. I think its odd he just sat there in my kitchen staring at us. I didn't ask him to leave. I just let him be.

why is it odd that he sat there for a while taking in the site of the life you destroyed with your affair and your dishonesty? that man is traumatized. his life has been completely blown apart.

it bothers me that this thread is starting to tend towards you being the victim. sell the house if you need to and he wants to. he's no bullying you. you told him to move out instead of finding a way to heal things and get him to stay.

sell the house even if its a loss. you need to be thinking about ways to accommodate him after WRECKING HIS LIFE.

i still so so many traces of entitlement in your posts. you're totally focused on yourself and what's happening to you. it's his daughter too. not just your daughter.

yeah, he's angry. and he doesn't want to give you money to live in the house he helped buy for you when he believed you to be a faithful and loving mate.

you really have no idea what you've done to this person, do you?

Zibbles, discretionary outcomes from specific stimuli cannot be attributed to the initiating action.

Suppose you and I were in a confrontation, and I slapped you. If, instead of either retaliating (or taking legal action), your shame was such that you chopped off the hand that would not strike me back, I'd be damned hard-pressed to feel guilty over the loss of your limb!

B/WH is behaving in a similar self- (and marrige-) destructive manner.

For which part(s) of his running away, taking up with a girlfriend, and threatening to cut off support for his children are you feeling sympathy?

I'm surprised NG that you don't have more compassion for sun's BH. He's not going to stop supporting his child. He just doesn't want his infidel of a wife living in the house he helped build for HIS family.

I don't get that this WW really understands the damage she caused. We don't know if he's having an RA or not. We can speculate but we don't know.

The mandolin is probably a huge trigger. He was teaching her how to play right before she betrayed him. He wants to sell it and she won't let him. She hasn't made recovery much of an option and IMO is still fumbling.

So you think I should sell the house and the mandolin?

He is court ordered to pay for half the mortgage and child support. I didn't ask for that, his attorney offered it. I haven't been unreasonable about it. If he wants to negotiate then that is fine. But he can't yell, curse and call names if we can get any business done.

I do understand what I did and have been trying to reach out to make a better life for us. He doesn't want me to!! He is done. I want him back. He is done. He yells at me. He hates me. How can I possibly do anything at this point to make that better?

Instead of reaming me, what would you suggest I do to be a better person?

BTW, he did have an RA already as well as a few inappropriate relationships with women. He has friended every ex girlfriend he has had on Facebook including the one he cheated on me with when we were dating. I don't know that he is seeing someone right now for sure but i did see him out with a girl one day. I saw his phone said a much longer name than when he claimed he was talking to "AJ" last week. So...

SunDancer,

I'm going to try and give you a little bit of perspective from your BH/WH's side.

When I finally separated from my serial WW, I was finished. I had a pretty solid plan B going, and was working on D. We were doing coaching with Steve Harley, and she just wasn't getting it.
I went to stay with a friend of mine and tried my best to focus on mysef. Eventually, I ended up in numerous RAs, though I doubt my STBXW knows about them. That sounds close to where your husband is at, but he doesn't have the plan B going.

Here's the thing. If you continue to fight him at every turn, you are only going to push him farther away. What can you do to show him that the future will be different from the past? It is important that you take these steps to show him this, without any expectation of reciprocation on his end. If you want a future with this man, only fight him on the things that will lead to your divorce. Tell him that you will not agree to a divorce ect... Show him, don't just tell him, SHOW him the actions you are taking to better yourself and make your marriage better. He is still talking to you, so you have a better opportunity than my WW did.

And please, let him sell the mandolin. It is very likely that is a huge trigger for him.

My WW chose to return to her ways when she realized I wasn't going to reciprocate at all. This was all the evidence I needed to know that she was not serious about improving herself.

Hi Jake,

Thankfully, I am not a serial WW as it happened once and I was mortified. That being said, once is all it took for my H. We went through recovery for a time. I changed everything and showed it. He still just couldn't do it. I regret not fighting him more to stay back in December. Did you not reciprocate because you wanted out? Had she changed would you have come back? What did she not change? Sounds like you were done when you started having RAs. How could she deposit anything into your love bank if you were doing that??? And you NEVER told her! She may not have recovered, but it sounds a lot like you were not open to her recovery anyway with your RAs.

The problem at this point for him IS that I fight him about the divorce. He says I've inserted myself at every point and all he wants is out and I won't let him. He said that I won't get it through my head that its over. I tired to postpone some things with the divorce for a time. He is livid about it. Yells and screams at me to let him out so he doesn't have to pay anything anymore. I let him yell and scream. I take full responsibility when he wants to blame me. What I am confused about at this point is how I can possibly show him I have changed if at every corner I am met with adversity. It doesn't mater what I do, he turns it to something horrible. Not to mention, he just doesn't care when I do anything.

He isn't really talking to me. In fact he says he doesn't want to talk to me after last weekend when I told him all my EPs after church. He was so angry. When I apologized to him about following him later that day, went off on me that I need to understand he is not coming back-- EVER!!!! He just keeps communicating to back off. The worst part is that the only satisfaction he wants is to get a divorce. If I talk to him or try anything he sees it as me trying to maneuver my way back into his life and it pisses him off.

At this point I am so confused. I don't want to hurt him just because I want to save our marriage while he wants out. I feel like I am being pushy if I fight him over the divorce and he retaliates with anger. He is terribly triggered right now with the court case against the OM that never seems to end. That is the other reason he yells at me because he owes money for fighting the OM. I told him I would help him pay it but he just blew me off and yelled at me some more.

He can sell the mandolin. I really wanted it because I have always wanted to learn. But I see it is a major trigger for him. It's unreasonable for me to keep it even if I am buying it.

So if he just wants out, I should just let him? Stop fighting him? We don't fight about anything else. He goes off on me about the A but other than that no fighting. Is it even possible that this man loves me at all now? I don't feel it, all I feel is him starting fights with me at this point. What am I supposed to do if he goes off on me? How can I show him my changes when he communicates that he doesn't care.

Also, I could have taken the OM to my work place ethics department for sexual harassment and assault at one point (he pushed me in a corner and kissed me without my permission and he didn't stop when I asked him to). It was not romantic nor was it welcome. I turned him in for it but didn't follow through because I spent time working on my marriage and dealing with some really heavy depression at the time. I also worried that no one would believe me since I ultimately had sex with the guy. I am so ashamed of myself. I have spoken to a few experts on the topic and they all agree that he was coercive and aggressive and that I may very well have a case.

I can still turn him in and he will likely lose his PhD, and have to leave the campus. Should I do it? My husband told me he was angry with me because I never followed through. I don't think he cares now because he says that it was an A and no one would listen. The university has already told me that they will hear my case all I need to do is tell them go ahead. They have my statement already. I'm angry because this man took so much from our lives. I worry that going this route is a no win situation though and may only further damage me emotionally. Thoughts?

Z, please do not mistake my position as lack of compassion for B/WH.

That said, there are legitimate ways to react to the kind of damage he has received, and ways that are inappropriate.

He is violating the only guidance I ever got from my grandfather (actually, one of two pieces). In the original Italian:

Un uomo � sempre un uomo, anche se la donna pu� essere una cagna.

Translated: A man is always a man, though the woman may be a....witch.

First, I think some clarification is in order. There was a time that I was very interested in recovery. When I separated from STBXW, you are correct, I was done. This was after months of trickle truths. The final straw for me was her googling "how to beat a polygraph" the night before she took the poly. I can relate to your WH/BH about the ego thing. It is extremely humiliating. None of this excuses my RAs, as I chose to do things on my own (as did your WH/BH).

Would I have come back if my WW had actually commited to her EPs? I don't think so, but I was dealing with nine years of lies. She immediately threw out her plan when she realized I wasn't going to return, and that only served as further proof that I had made the right decision by getting out.

It does not excuse the RAs, not even a little. When I got out of the fog myself, I realized that I had been completely selfish and neglected my duties as a parent. Based on what you've said of your hubby, he will probably come to that realization soon, if he hasn't already. I agree with NG that you should also start acting like a BW. If he is this dead-set on getting out of the marriage, he it is very possible he is either in an active A, or he's seeking one (trust me, I've been there). Exposure is the best way to kill this, though I don't know if the vets would recommend this in your case. You aren't likely to get a whole lot of RL support because of your infidelity.

Like other posters have said, you can't change your BH/WH's mind. All you can do is focus on YOU and the changes you are making. In the long run, know that you will be a better mother/wife/person because of it. You may not have your husband, but you WILL be better.

I really hope you can find a way to talk to Steve. He has an excellent way with words, and if anyone can explain to your BH/WH that it is in his best interests to try and recover his marriage, it is Steve.

Edit:

"Should I do it? My husband told me he was angry with me because I never followed through."

Yes! You may not be the first person he has done this to, and if he get's away with it, you will likely not be the last. People like this should not be allowed to teach. As an added bonus, it may show your B/WH that you are as serious as you say you are. He needs to see action from you, not hear more words.

Sun dancer, you are still really foggy. Are you saying that your AP harassed you to have an affair with him?

Do these "experts" know the details of the extra-marital affair you were having with the current student who you turned in?

You still have a lot of owning up to do. And making changes.

Radio Clip of SunDancer's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Plus...in doing so you might accomplish the following:

1. Assist your husband's defense on the assault case that is being brought against him. Any judge or jury will be sympathetic to your husband beating OM if they become aware that OM harassed and forced himself on you sexually. Jury nullification is a real thing...the "he needed beatin" defense works. In fact, prosecutors hate to lose so once the prosecutor finds out the defendant's wife has a sexually harassment case against the OM that she filed and documented long before the beatdown..he'll be pushing OM to drop the charges. Plus...OM's don't like to stand up in court and expose their misdeeds (affairs and sexual harassment). I just hope your husband doesn't plead guilty to avoid court as it's unlikely ever to go to trial.

2. You might someday win money from OM that might be used to reimburse your husband for any loss he sustains or restitution he has to pay in the assault case (and/or his attorney fees).

3. Demonstrate follow through to your husband despite the uncomfortableness (it won't be fun pursuing OM)


If, as you say, OM coerced and manipulated you, then OM gets off on the notion of being powerful over women. Such a person does not belong teaching women and it's likely healthy for you to take back control and power over your own self and over him despite the hits (consequences) that will surely follow. Litigation and harassment charges are often quite sticky messes that leave all the parties dissatisfied in the end. Don't go into this with expectations either ..other than speaking the truth, the outcome is irrelevant. OM might get off or beat you in court but he can never erase the truth when you stand up against him and say "I matter too".


"Power is like being a lady, if you have to tell people you are, you aren't" - Lady Margaret Thatcher

I might have gotten around to writing this stellar advice ....


..... but I highly doubt it.
Excellent response.

Thank you so much for this MrW. and Pep. It brought tears to my eyes. The agency is awaiting my call. I will set up or appointment today.

I also agree very much with NeverGuessed. In December, when her husband said he had to go and find his self respect again is when he loses sympathy. "Finding his self-respect" is betrayed husband code for sowing wild oats type behavior and revenge affairs. It appears he was at the 6-8 month mark of recovery which is very often when the anger phase occurs. It's understandable and it would be perhaps hypocritical for his former wayward wife to get up all in his face about it (as she started this ball rolling) but that doesn't preclude us for chastising such immoral behavior.

If he were here...we'd help him with his pain and we'd hammer him for his sins. But he's not. The only way we can help this FAMILY and MARRIAGE is by helping the former wayward wife. She's in a tough spot...very much of her own making but her husband isn't making things better. He doesn't get a free pass to behave however he chooses because he's hurt. He's not a 10 year old. He's accountable for his actions and behavior and should be exposed too. Exposure to bust up any affair he may be having is a good healthy thing because then her husband can make a decision about his marriage without a desperate OW willing to date a still married man clouding his thinking.

Her husband's self respect will never be found in the pants of any woman.

Mr. W


p.s. - Sundance - don't sweat the moving out thing in December. He got what he wanted ... space to carouse and pursue women...and a way to gaslight you for "kicking him out". It's a typical wayward history rewrite. He NEEDS things to be your fault (which is an indication of guilt that he has to reach beyond 'just' your affair for rationalizations and justifications to continue his wayward behavior). My guess is that he uses every little tidbit he can to garner sympathy from some OW he's dating. If he was alone and simply divorcing you because of your affair...he wouldn't need additional items...he'd just be done (as would be his right). I think this potential recovery is going to be a long process. You are going to have to "follow through" with a lot for quite awhile. Some of this will depend on how deep in an affair he is. You simply CAN NOT recover while he's in an active affair and as the former wayward wife your ability to break it up is quite limited. In general, affairs last no longer than 2 years after exposure so you won't likely get a chance until your husband's affair is over.

p.p.s. - It's not likely a woman can handle this strategy but perhaps it could work in this situation. You stay in Plan A and eventually try to out affair the OW. You become your husband's friend and confidant. He starts sharing things about the OW that bug him. You become the insider and OW becomes the angry/bitter outsider. Eventually your husband dumps OW to "find his family" [ironically his self-respect too]. Now he's likely to favor this strategy as he gets to cake eat to his heart's desire so you may need to make it clear that once the divorce is done...you'll be moving to Plan B and "no contact" for one additional year hoping he decides to come back to you and remarry you. After that...you'll be moving away and moving on without him. He just can't be lead to believe he can have OW (or numerous OW) and your friendship and devotion indefinitely as he'll just lap it up while you enable it (it's easy being with shallow women when your soon to be ex wife is around for a more intimate historical friendship and family time whenever it's convenient.

p.p.p.s.- give him the mandolin to sell or break or whatever. Be a cooperative friend to the point it doesn't make you divorced faster or sooner.

You've got great advice here! By following through with the claim you show your BH that you care for him more than you care about protecting the OM. I agree with the other posters that say that ACTIONS are what your BH needs to see. Back off for a while and just show him that you are willing to go the extra mile.