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POJA during recovery is the GRAND DADDY of EPs. POJA basically prohibits you from doing anything that will displease your wife. And visa versa.
Dude, your house is on fire (the affair). You cannot go out and buy the lumber to rebuild your house until the flames are extinguished and there are no dangerous still hot embers.
Dr Harley was discussing how a BS may have a grounds for a lawsuit if his spouse has a workplace affair...
Mel, I posted this on 09 April:
...but would leave those details in the hands of my legal representation in the "inappropriate workplace" lawsuit that was in process.
This long-overdue legal construct is slowly gaining traction in the various jurisdictions, varying in viability and intensity by geography. The poster would have to engage legal counsel (as mentioned) to discover the state of the concept in his State.
MTW, you are doing a great job of selling your marriage and I want to applaud you. You might even print up an article about the POJA that shows her how this works in action. I would explain to her that capitulation is just as bad for marriages as control. If she can commit to stop capitulating you can commit to stop controlling and learn how to negotiate agreements that make you both happy.
I would also tell her that you know of a program that creates a passionate, romantic marriage. She won't believe it for now, but I would tell her you never want that old, dead marriage back. Tell her you want a marriage where there is romantic love; no controlling and no sacrifice.
A watch out, though. Most waywards complain of being "controlled" when their BS tries to interfere with their affair. So don't let that complaint prevent you from taking necessary affair busting steps.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
from Effective Marriage Counseling pg 112-113
What about Resentment? One of the most common objections to to the POJA is that it creates resentment when it is followed. I agree; it does usually create some resentment. But far more resentment is created when it is not followed. An illustration will make this important point.
George is invited to watch football with his friend Sam. He tells his wife, Sue, that he plans to accept the invitation. Sue objects.
If George goes ahead and watches the game, he's guilty of independent behavior. He is not following the POJA and Sue will be resentful. When George does something against the wishes of Sue, I call her resentment type A.
If George follows the POJA and doesn't accept Sam's invitation, then George will be resentful. When George is prevented from doing something because of Sue's objections I call this resentment type B.
Which type of resentment makes the largest love bank withdrawals: type A or type B? The answer is type A, and thats why the POJA helps build love bank balances. I'll explain.
When G violates the POJA, Sue has no choice but to feel the effect of the thoughtless decision [love bank withdrawals] for as long as memory persists - possibly for life whenever the event is recalled. But when George follows the POJA, the negative effect is limited in time. It only lasts as long as it takes to discover an enjoyable alternative that is acceptable to Sue.
George lets Sue know how disappointed he is with her objection but is willing to discuss other options. Sue wasn't invited to watch football and doesn't want to invite herself to Sam's house so she suggests inviting Sam and his wife to their house to watch football. George calls Sam, he and his wife accept, and the new activity puts an end to George's type B resentment.
Type A resentment can last forever, but type B resentment stops the moment a mutually enjoyable alternative is discovered. Those with poor negotiating skills may have trouble seeing the difference because they have not learned how to resolve conflicts. They may feel resentment about a host of issues that have been unresolved in their marriage. But after you teach a couple to negotiate successfully, unresolved issues are minimized. Then it becomes clear to them that the POJA helps build Love Bank balances by eliminating type A resentment.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
I am not a betrayed spouse, but it seems like a normal response to second guess your exposure. Your marriage might NOT survive. If it does not, and you did NOT expose , I am most certain you would be saying, "But what if I HAD exposed at the work place...maybe that would have helped push her out of the fog."
My biggest complaint to my spouse were the disrespectful judgements /trying to control me. I wanted to be understood and accepted by him, not constantly told how to think, feel, act, live, etc. I sound JUST like your wife.
My husband has really taken ownership of this...but it took at least a year from exposure to get there. I am going to ask him to come here and see if he has any helpful words for you.
My husband just retired from 20 years in the military and his heart's desire was full time Christian ministry. I felt our entire marriage that he would rather be at the church doing something for God than to be with me. And I began to despise church, missions, and maybe even God.
I was skeptical he would sustain his changes. When he stopped telling me , "Look what I'm doing ! See how I'm changing ! Admire me NOW", and just quietly worked on himself, then I really began to think he is doing this for HIM and not to win me back or coerce me to stay. And I admire him for that.
There is much to look forward to in your life MTW !
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
This talk of the OM being scared you'll kill him and maybe taking out a protective order...just makes him look like the cowardly weasel he is.
This is GOOD news !
If your WW thinks about it, she will see he is cowardly. If he loves her so much and wants her so badly, why isn't he saying, "I'll stand up for you and fight for you".
I'll tell you why: because he is a cowardly weasel.
If your WW thinks about it, she will see he is cowardly. If he loves her so much and wants her so badly, why isn't he saying, "I'll stand up for you and fight for you".
Agree with this. And I would tell her that you will WELCOME a restraining order because that will give you an opportunity to air his affair in court. He is a member of management and she is a female subordinate so his affair with her will not reflect well on him! Feed her this kind of scary stuff so it will get back to the OM.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
I was able to ease into a discussion about the POJA and how if I had a 2nd chance to meet her needs that would really help keep me from being so controlling (disrespect judgements and independent behavior LBs). I think it made her think.
Wow, thanks again for the encouragement--thought of you all when reading Prov. 12:18 today.
No wood while the house is still burning--check.
Forget the old marriage--check--I have been telling her, "You're going to get a new lover no matter what you decide, but I think one choice comes with a lot less pain."
Restraining Order come back--very good, thanks.
FF--the piece on control and BH not doing stuff to force back love is spot on--kind of slippery and hard to keep the motives and behavior lined up right all the time though. I don't have real good acuity on it, but I can tell when I say things about me growing and moving forward with no expectations on her it is well received and intriguing to her. Maybe you guys could come over for dinner tomorrow:).
Me: BH 42 Her: WW 41 Married 23 years D-Day March 2, 2013 E-Day April 8, 2013 5 Kids ages 16-22, 3 boys & 2 girls
why isn't he saying, "I'll stand up for you and fight for you".
I asked the same question a while back. WW explained that it makes her so mad when I scare and control people into not fighting, then call them names for being scared to fight--see how controlling I am, I am doubly controlling!
You know how it is, any bad trait I try to point out about the OM is just received as a manipulative controlling attempt to force WW to stay in misery and give up her new life of fun and adventure.
Me: BH 42 Her: WW 41 Married 23 years D-Day March 2, 2013 E-Day April 8, 2013 5 Kids ages 16-22, 3 boys & 2 girls
I'm in the same boat in that respect MTW. "Your just jealous! All of that is just speculation! If I find anyone else you will find something wrong with him too!" That's just a few. I like to think that she says those things to trigger and argument then run to POSOM for comfort and fortify "POSOM will be different with me" fantasy.
I don't know if there is ever a clean separation between ulterior and internal motives. Honestly, for me anyway, the driving force in the beginning, overwhelmingly so, was to do things to save my marriage, period. So, don't beat yourself up. But, the best way to save your marriage also happens to be the way that makes you a better man and husband, so that works out well
The key is permanent changes, not an means to an end. I think I always wondered if I was really changing because I remembered myself from before. But, I can tell you are a spiritual man that will listen to God now that he has your undivided attention again.
Awesome idea Pep! You did great on the dinner MTW. But listen up and listen good (or read.. haha) STOP. THE. TEARS. Cry in private. Your wife needs to see you strong and in control.
What about a love letter sprayed with her favorite cologne? And what about doing some of her chores and freeing up some of her time. Then you two can maybe go for a walk and reminisce. Try not to talk about POSOM or the affair. Do not give him that much time. Use whatever time you have to make LB deposits. If she lets you hold hands do it. Hug, do it. Arm around the shoulder, do it. Kiss on the forehead do it. Look in the eyes do it (no tears with this one). Flowers at work!
Hmmm. I have 0 musical ability or knowledge. I just don't have any idea what songs to put together.
Herb--you are onto me. I never allowed the church to castrate me, but I am serious about faith and transparent about my faults. I got no stomach for the rules driven high religion but I seriously appreciate Christ and will follow Him at all costs.
I never cry first, but when she starts crying I do. I cried maybe twice in 23 years before this--I think she kinda likes to see there is a real heart in there?
I'm doing lost of chores and shopping and cleaning and cooking and running kids and finances and fix up projects.
I did flowers at work one week, an edible arrangement the next, a fancy basket of nuts and trail mix the next--she came home real mad and said "Why are you doing all this now? Now I'm gonna look like the bad person!" So I stopped sending things to work.
I can do the letter with cologne thing. But get this, she bought me some cologne a week after D-Day--guess who else wears it?
She does allow affection. I can hold her hands, peck her forehead, rub her feet etc--but it's got to be throttled--she has mentioned that I smother her to much sometimes.
I know I am not supposed to monitor and hang on every facial expression, but something is going on inside her--got this look this morning and when I took in a pizza for her and her co-workers today at lunch. So the look is a sort of sad almost gonna cry thing--I believe it means either 1) I'm sorry for hurting you what have, or 2) you poor dumb man, you don't even know I'm leaving tomorrow. Something is eating her inside though.
Me: BH 42 Her: WW 41 Married 23 years D-Day March 2, 2013 E-Day April 8, 2013 5 Kids ages 16-22, 3 boys & 2 girls
MTW, does WW like music? Sometimes a well selected playlist, downloaded and dedicated to her .... ????
Just a suggestion. (warning, emotional content)
Build her a playlist of music on a CD ... "Baby, this is for you."
Give her the 'ol double barrel... I personally cannot listen to this one, and once you hear it you will know why. But, I gotta wonder what it might do to a WW;
Barrel two;
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
