Not sure why I can't edit my last post, but I am on my phone...
I just wanted to add one more positive. I can't believe I forgot this one because again it's something that hasn't happened In months.
5. She let me see her naked before she got in the shower. Talk about starting my day right!!!! It's a good image to have in my head all day.

There goes the wind from my sails...

We went to marriage counseling on Friday. I felt pretty good going in, but my wife said a few things that really shook me up.

She was talking to the counselor about what she felt was going on with us in the marriage. My wife said that while she feels like our problems trace back to when she changed medicines back in June, she is worried that there are other problems. Then she said she felt like we had "grown apart" and I forget what she said next because the adrenalin dump from that statement shook me up, but she said something about being interested in different things or not having the same interests.

I think back to prior to the medicine change and the only thing I felt like that was a negative in our marriage was we were spending less time together alone and going on dates and things like that. To me there is a direct relationship between that and the stress in the home and in general from DD19 and the 2 kids.

If I had to think back to when the marriage was best in the last few years, it would be before DD19 had the babies, really before the second one. Prior to having the kids she was still giving us stress with running around, cutting school, running away, drugs, etc, but it was different - my wife and I were spending time together either working on looking for her or when we ran out of options, we still tried to enjoy ourselves and have a normal life.

Back then my wife had a pretty routine day, I worked, she cleaned or relaxed, worked 2 days a week part time, went shopping, cooked, etc.

Anyway the "growing apart"... I get the impression that she thinks of this as a natural evolution or something that just happens or can't be controlled. I would have to think that the last 9 months are probably the freshest in her memory and certainly we have grown apart in the last 9 months, because she reads all day and all night, we don't talk much or do much recreational stuff together and have little affection going on.
To me, I kind of feel like growing apart is a BS explanation for things. To me the solution to growing apart is to start growing together! It's a choice what direction it goes in.

Anyway, it's confusing because on one hand, I feel like I am seeing some positive changes and willingness to let me be affectionate and expressing some interest in doing things, but then she talks like it's the opposite. I mentioned in counseling what my wife had said: that she would be willing to go bike riding and that she wanted to go camping - she gave me this look like she had never said that!!

So my wife describes herself as emotionally numb to everyone - The counselor gave some explanation of how she has built up an emotional fortress or walls as a way to deal with all the stress over the past 2-3 years and that by eliminating the sources of the stress or finding other ways (medicine that works or therapy, exercise)to manage and deal with the stress, she can start to "dismantle" those walls...

We didn't go to the vacation house this weekend - got all packed and ready to go and she said she's not feeling well, so we don't go. I did however get to rub and massage her for an hour including her feet which she said she never even knew she liked her feet rubbed. It would be nice if she rubbed/massaged me (I get 5 min for every 60 I give her) but it's OK, because I am enjoying the physical contact with her A LOT.

Then the next day she's feeling OK, we go to a family get-together. We are there for 30 minutes and she says we have to go, she doesn't feel good, so we come home. She's been reading and I have been working on painting the bedroom.

I'm going to suggest a hike this afternoon after church, but we'll see how it goes.

xcuseme, is there a reason you aren't using Marriage Builders? I am not seeing how this "counselor" helped motivate your wife in any way to tear down those walls? What is the counselors plan to restore the romantic love in your marriage?

It should take about 8-10 weeks to find a way to motivate your wife to use this program, follow the steps and fall back in love again. Yet it seems that hope is your plan. Your marriage will never recover if you don't have a real plan, though.

Your wife is emotionally withdrawn and the solution to that is spending 20+ hours of undivided attention time every week. That will create romantic love that will alleviate her depression and motivate her to meet your ENs. But there has to be a plan to motivate her to devote 20+ hours per week with you.

Do you have a plan to achieve this?

xcuseme, I just browsed through your thread to get a feel for it and it is clear your wife is addicted to reading. So until she gives up the reading you are not going to get too far because of the contrast effect. Your company pales in comparison to the reading and until she falls in love, that will be the case.

Dr Harley would tell you that she has to give up the reading. She may be able to bring it back sometime in the future *IF* you are in love again and *IF* you are spending 15 hours of UA time together. Any of the time she spends reading while you are together is NOT UA time. She should not even bring her ipad on your dates.

Do you have the book Five Steps to Romantic Love? Are you actually scheduling your 20+ hours of UA time? Time that is not scheduled is too easy to break.

From my perspective, your most pressing issue is getting her to stop reading and persuading her to spend 20+ hours of UA time with you. Everything else is a needless distraction. And I would put "counseling" in that category. Marriage counselors are destructive to marriages and have no idea how to save them. I am sorry you are wasting your time at a counselor.

I am going to put a call out to other MB members who have recovered their marriages and are familiar with MB to come help you. You need all the help in the world to get you focused. There is no focus and no plan on this thread. I am disappointed and alarmed. Marriage Builders is all about ACTION, and so far all I see here is a lot of TALK. We should be helping you with an action plan. THAT is how marriages are transformed.

You have received some great advice from MelodyLane. Start working on scheduling 20 hours a week of UA time, doing things you both enjoy. Your wife needs to leave all reading material at home during this dates.

Most MC is useless and will only serve as a distraction at best and will actually be destructive to your marriage at worst. The best MC is using either the coaching center to help motivate your wife to come on board or, if she's willing, sign up for the MB Online Seminar.

Sit down with your wife today and set up four or five 4-hour dates.

I agree with ML that your wife needs to give up all her reading until she enjoys her time with you more. This goes for any hobby/activity that either of you enjoys more than being with each other.

Five Steps is a very helpful workbook that will help you get started. In the back of the book is a worksheet for UA time. Every single emotional need and love buster has a worksheet to help you get started with a PLAN OF ACTION.

Can you motivate your wife to help you plan and spend 20 hours of time with you every single week doing things you both enjoy?

Can you motivate your wife to start working MB with you on a consistent basis?

Listen, my H and I have been married for over 33 years and have never been in love like we are now; even our newlywed years pale in comparison to the last couple of years. We credit MB for giving us a plan of action to help us not only recover our marriage but give us the romantic and passionate and safe marriage that we never had before.

If we can do it, so can you and your wife. But, first, you need to set up and follow the MB plan.

Thank you MelodyLane for your valuable input.
Aren't using MarriageBulders for counseling or in general? Im not using the coaching center because I wasn't sure that was the right place to start with all the medicine/anxiety/panic attack stuff unresolved. It's only been a gradual change in that my wife will even let me attempt to meet any of her needs. Not much more than a month ago she didn't want to be around anyone or talk to anyone and was angry if anyone tried.
I went to the counselor for 2 reasons: 1. My wife's psychologist said she needed therapy in addition to the medical treatment. 2. My wife said she would go to marriage counseling and a friend reccomended this one. We only had one visit and spent it giving history and the current state of affairs.

I agree 100% that us not spending time together is the problem and the solution is increasing that to 20 hours a week. I do not have a good plan for that -more below

I had thought that myself, but wasn't sure if it could be a real addiction. I have since read some of the same cautions that are normally associated with porn also apply to romance novels. I don't like her reading that stuff because 1. It takes away time from us and other productive things and 2. The contrast effect - she's reading about all this steamy sex and romance and stuff and in our marriage there has never really been any steamy sex - she's never been interested in much beyond plain SF. At one point I had thought maybe it will spice things up for us - it hasn't.
She won't give up the reading. Back when she was saying she has no feelings for anyone, I suggested something to the effect of how would she feel if I took away the reading and she had this reaction like the world would end because that is the only thing that she does enjoy.

Why would the reading have to go away completely at first? I work 40 hours a week plus commute times and my wife is home then - even if she was cooking and cleaning and running an efficient household, there would still be down time. Would I be wrong to settle for no reading when I am home? I don't even know how I would approach getting her to stop reading. Her defense would be that it's the way she relaxes and it's like entertainment to her - watching a movie, etc. She would say the stories do have sex, but that's not what she's reading it for - she likes the love story.
I just ordered it today. We are not scheduling time. I have been offering to do things together but the success rate has been poor.

I have been listening to the radio show and reading here for a few years. I stopped reading and listening for the past year, but I am back now.

I want to meet her emotional needs, avoid love busters and spend 15(or 20)+ hours a week together on stuff we would both like. I can think of a ton of stuff that we can do together. There isn't any one thing she really likes to do. She has no hobbies (well maybe shopping, home decorating, landscaping) and no friends. She even said the other day she prefers just being by herself.

Persuading her to stop reading or reduce it to spend time with me is and will be the challenge.
9 months ago if she had stayed on the Clomipramine - I would not be here discussing this issue. The thing I wonder about is if the reading can make her happy (even without the medicine fixed) then why can't something like a loving marriage and/or normal hobbies/friends also make her happy? I should probably ask her this.

My plan had been this:
Try to reduce or eliminate environmental stresses that are contributing to her withdrawal:
Cutting of Finances to DD23 and DD19, and getting DD19 and the kids out of the house
Avoid love busters:
Be responsible with the finances
Remember dates/events/bills
Try to not wear my disappointment on my sleeve for her not meeting any of my needs (what she says is stressful to her)
Support treatment for the Anxiety/panic attack/depression:
going to her Drs visits with her
researching, becoming familiar with treatment
Meeting her emotional needs
Consistently working on the house projects (the only real thing she told me she wants)
Admiration
Conversation as much as she will allow
Affection - hugs, back/foot rubs
Supporting/backing her on things with the Daughters and working together on plans for them

In order to convince my wife to cut out the reading and spend 20 hours a week with me she would have to see a potential benefit. I can see it, you can see it, but I don't think she would view it as a priority. She would probably say getting her mental health/finding a new medicine would be the first priority.
She even said that to some effect when she told me I could either stick it out until she finds another medicine or walk away from the marriage. The "compromise" was that she would go to marriage counseling if I wanted to while the medicine search continues.

95% of our current marriage problems started the day she stopped that medicine 9 months ago. Maybe it was enough of a crutch that spending 15+ hours a week wasn't as important then. Now that we don't have that crutch, the wear and tear on our romantic relationship is showing.

xcuseme, I would try a qualified, experienced marriage counselor. I seriously doubt your marriage counselor is trained in Marriage Builders and has any idea how to save a marriage. Marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and are destructive to marriages.

The biggest issue you have is that a) your wife is not motivated and b) she is addicted to reading books. The reason she needs to quit doing that altogether is because she enjoys it more than she does being with you. She is not in love with you. As long as you are competing with book reading, you will never make lovebank deposits.

The goal of MB is to create romantic love in your marriage.

In order to turn this around, it will take a radical change in your wife's approach to marriage. She will have to agree to give up the books and spend 20+ hours of UA time with you weekly. It will take a professional approach to persuade her to do this.


This is a piecemeal approach to the program that will avail you very little. This program doesn't work without the UA time and you are nowhere close to that. Your wife even takes her book with her on your dates, so you get absolutely NO benefit from those dates.

That is good that you have removed some of the stressors and are avoiding lovebusters, but that is not a replacement for this program. In order to work the program you both have to be on board 100%.


The solution is to sell her on the program. Your marriage counselor is not qualified to do that and you have not been successful. That must be your first step. And that is why I suggested trying one of the Harleys.

It is in your wife's best interest to fall in love with you again. But she does not understand that this is possible. No one has ever painted her that beautiful picture of what it will be like if she is in love. If someone showed her how this is possible and gave her a step by step plan to achieve that goal, she might get on board.

But until she gets on board and starts spending UA time with you, this train will never leave the station. When Dr Harley was in active practice he would not even take on clients who would not commit to the weekly UA time. He told them to find someone else because his program won't work without that step.

20 hours does seem daunting, I'll admit. That said, it's not that I can't come up with 20 hours of stuff to do it's will she be willing to do them with me. She has a tendency to not "feel good" it happened 3 times this weekend - We were packed to go away the entire weekend, no kids or Gkids and last minute she said she didn't want to go, not feeling good. Then we went to a family event yesterday and had to leave 30 min after we got there, stomach ache. Went to church alone, she didnt feel like getting ready, I suggested a hike/picnic since it was a really nice day, got home and she wasn't feeling good and has slept for the past 3-4 hours.

The counselor did seem to be familiar with the MarriageBuilders program and Dr harley's books and seemed to relate to the concepts and things I was mentioning. I will reconsider the coaching center. If she wakes up I'll see what we can schedule.

The motivating is going to be the hard part, but I will try - it seems like every time I try to talk "about things" she gets very tense and fight or flight mode it seems like.
I'm not sure how I can find something she will do that she thinks is better than reading.
Should I treat the reading like I would if she were doing cocaine? or drinking till she passes out? or like I would expect her to treat me if I were going gambling with the money we needed for the mortgage or not going to work but going to a bar?

Was one of you on board and the other not? if so how did you both get convinced wot do the plan? I feel like my wife doesn't like "plans" or marriage programs. She had a bad experience with the rating system from the church small group version of his needs/her needs. I'll admit that a 0-10 might be better than a -3 to +3

Could part of your UA time be spent in you and she reading out loud to each other in private?

It could be fun. (Conversation, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment.....)

This is a bit disingenuous. YOU rated her only a +1 (I think) on physical attractiveness, although she had lost a lot of weight and took care of her appearance. You were slammed on this board - perhaps unfairly - for rating her that lowly. This was in your first ever thread here.

I don't think you can brush it off as "she had a bad experience". She was very upset at your rating her that way. At that time, in 2009, she seemed to go into withdrawal from you with the feeling that she wasn't good enough for you, and she did not seem to want to have sex with you after that. Did your relationship to each other ever pick up after that?

I just read that thread and I don't think xcuseme would get the same reaction on MB today. I mean, he was basically told "WTH? WE think your wife is just fine. Whaddya mean you want to have input into her hairstyle and clothes? Do you have a thing for anorexics?"

Etc, ect.

xcuseme: does your W associate that questionnaire with MB? What does she know about the program?

My point is not about the reaction he got from MB then, but the reaction he got from his wife.

When we are on board with MB, spouses try to understand the substance of the "complaint" without taking offence. However, she wasn't on board and took the "complaint" very badly. I am wondering whether they ever recovered from that.

If this wife thinks that he was overly-critical of her and did not love her because she wasn't perfect, even though she was, in his own words, very slim and beautiful and took care of her appearance, then she might be closed to him even today.

Interesting idea - I would be up for it, I'm just not sure if the reading or the detrimental aspect would be blunted by us doing it together.

Yes, the relationship did pick up after that. It was only bad for maybe 2 weeks. I would really say that I feel like the next 2-3 years were really good between us. My brother and his wife even mentioned a few times that something was different with us that we seemed happier and they wanted to know what it was we were doing, etc. That was discussed earlier in this thread ( LINK).

I don't think that thread needs to be rehashed, but I would add that I was trying to follow the questionnaire exactly. By saying I rated her only a +1 highlights the problem with the scale. +1 is really a 5 out of 7 on that scale. 5/7 sounds better than a 1 right? My point was I wished the scale had been 0-10 because she would have met my need with 8 out of 10 and gone from 8 to 9 with the two super easy changes: 1. not wearing a few old clothing items that were not flattering 2. wearing the 5 or 6 hairstyles I like vs the one I didn't.
I thought the whole point of the questionnaire was to identify the top EN's and how well they are being met. I wasn't rating HER attractiveness. I was rating how well she was meeting MY need for PA. To me the clothing and hair "complaint" was almost effortless for her to do and would better meet my need. Becoming more fit in all actuality was probably something unnecessary and I think I mentioned that it was partially tied into wanting her to exercise with me for RC.
The weight number is largely irrelevant to my PA need. She had lost some weight, but not a lot, nor did she need to. Case in point is right now she probably weighs a few more pounds than she did in 2009 when I rated +1, but I would give her a +4 or 11/10 right now for PA because she exceeds my expectations for my PA need. Could she improve her appearance? maybe, but I am completely satisfied with her PA - Thrilled in fact, that any improvement would only be for her benefit, not mine. Her weight in Lbs seems to me to not be connected with my need for PA. She knows that I find her very attractive.

I did feel like I was being told I could have a need for PA, but it had to fall into certain acceptable criteria. She wasnt and isnt nor did I ever want her anorexic. She is and always will be petite.
I think she might associate that questionnaire with His Needs Her Needs, but not MarriageBuilders as a program. It's almost like she stopped being interested when it looked like there were things I felt could be better and felt like it was all about me complaining about her. I think she could embrace the UA RC and at least share her needs, she might not want to hear about mine, but I might be OK with that for now.

I think I understand your point. She did take it badly and certainly looked at anything I was saying with a glass half full attitude. Like I mentioned earlier, we did revisit this maybe 2 years ago and I showed her that thread where I was talking honestly without thinking she would ever see it and she believed me. She did feel like I didn't find her attractive, which is far far far from the truth and she did see that in the earlier thread.

Have you asked your MC if she/he has a plan to restore the love in your marriage? Have you asked what the rate of success has been with the counseling? The answer to those two questions will separate a dabbler in MB from a true proponent.

Regarding the phone coaching: Steve and Jennifer start out by counseling individually. We didn't go this route - went straight to Online - but according to many on the forum, Jennifer is great at coaxing reluctant wives to get on board with MB, while Steve is great with men.

The Harleys are nearly always dealing with one reluctant spouse, so they have plenty of experience in how get a spouse on board. Plus you can be coached, on your own, on how to get this started.

Do you have Fall in Love, Stay in Love? That's a very nice overview of the entire program. You could read it together every night, a half hour at a time, starting with the emotional needs. Then talk about it a little, asking her what you could be doing to better meet her needs.

And, no, my husband was unwilling at first; he was the reluctant spouse, but then again, he was in an A and addicted to the OW. It took a while to turn him onto MB, but the program appealed to his logic in the end. And now he says he would never go back and is grateful for how MB has helped him become a better man.

Reposting for xcuseme:

Reposting

Thank You MelodyLane - I was getting back to your posts. I got out of order.

This does make sense to me - that she likes reading more than being with me. Not easy to hear, but I agree with it. Regarding the counselor - My Wife's Psychiatrist who see's her 15 min once a month at best said she should in addition to medical management be in individual therapy. That is the main reason I went to her. My wife said she was open to marriage counseling. all we have really done so far is each give history and what's currently going on.

It's not that I am trying to do this as a piecemeal approach, but I have been waiting to make some progress with her mental health issues - see below

I am starting to think getting the Harley's might be worth a try. Is starting with the radio show worthwhile? We were not that great finance wise and now we are going on 9 months without her income.

I certainly know that we need the UA time and that in order to make progress she needs to be on board.
For 13 years she has been on medicine (clomipramine) for anxiety and panic attacks which is a big deal to her and her main concern. There are other things going on because every person in our family sees a drastic difference in her on the medicine vs being off the medicine. She is irritable, short tempered, unreasonable, untalkative and withdrawn. She is none of these things on the Clomipramine.

For the last 9 months she has been in search of a substitute medicine (without the side effects) that fixes the anxiety and panic attacks and nothing so far has worked. Up until a few weeks ago she basically woke up and read books from 6AM-midnight or later. The only contribution to the family was to make a pot of coffee and fix my son's lunch. She stopped:
working, cleaning, shopping, paying bills, talking to me, talking to the kids, going to church, going shopping,
lost interest in home decorating, sometimes wore the same clothes for 3 days or didn't get out of bed. She said she had no emotions at all and that she was uncomfortable with anyone being around her or in her personal space or touching her, hugging her, etc. The depression scale/test the Dr gave her indicated Moderate to severe depression at the last visit. On top of this she is home all day with my DD19 and the Gkids and there is a lot of stress that I escape by going to work where my wife is there all day.

None of these things were a problem for 13 years and then beginning in June of last year when she stopped the medicine all these things appeared. She has been on lithuim for the past 3 weeks and is better in many ways, but I don't think she will stick with it because the thing that matters to her most (anxiety/panic attacks) has not gotten better.

I guess I feel compassion for the anxiety/depression issues and since she is only just returning to normal basic functions. Since getting her onboard is the key to success, would it be reasonable to get the anxiety/depression under some bit of control before trying to introduce a radical change in her approach to our marriage?

I could imagine that if it were 10 months ago on the old medicine and she told me she felt like we were growing apart and she wasn't having romantic Love for me, I would have probably been shocked, but I think If I would have said to her:
I can see how you can feel that way, we have been under a lot of stress and going in different directions and not spending a lot of time on our marriage. Not knowing exactly what to do, I started reading on the marriage builders forum and listening to the MB radio show and there are plenty of other people in the same situation to varying degrees and causes. What Dr Harley recommends time after time with couples is spending quality time together doing the things that meet each others emotional needs like conversation, dinner, date nights, shopping, hiking, picnics, exercise, going to nurseries and home centers, home shows, camping, weekends at the vacation house, things we like to do. They recommend scheduling 15 hours a week for couples to maintain their love for each other and 20 to restore romantic love. I am convinced that we can do this and make our marriage better than ever and look forward to spending time with each other more than anything else. The best thing about it is we get to spend a lot of time every week doing stuff that is fun and with each other. It's not like we have a whole lot of difficult work to do, we just need to schedule the time and follow through with it every week. I love you more than anything and want us both to be happy and in love with each other.
I think she would have been open to the idea and willing to put in the time.

I could try saying something similar today - maybe start off with:
I can see how you feel that way. I know we are working on figuring out the medicine, but what if we were to work on our relationship at the same time you are trying to find the right medicine? We already know there is some benefits to using medicine in conjunction with other approaches like therapy and exercise etc. We have been under a lot of stress and going in different directions and not spending a lot of time on our marriage. Not knowing exactly what to do, I started reading on the marriage builders forum and listening to the MB radio show and there are plenty of other people in the same situation to varying degrees and causes. What Dr Harley recommends time after time with couples is spending quality time together doing the things that meet each others emotional needs like conversation, dinner, date nights, shopping, hiking, picnics, exercise, going to nurseries and home centers, home shows, camping, weekends at the vacation house, things we like to do. They recommend scheduling 15 hours a week for couples to maintain their love for each other and 20 to restore romantic love. I am convinced that we can do this and make our marriage better than ever and look forward to spending time with each other more than anything else. The best thing about it is we get to spend a lot of time every week doing stuff that is fun and with each other. It's not like we have a whole lot of difficult work to do, we just need to schedule the time and follow through with it every week. I love you more than anything and want us both to be happy and in love with each other.

MelodyLane any thoughts on this idea? vs trying to convince her to cut it out completely?