Can I make that huge of a difference in two months?

Btw. She is also wanting me to pay her bills until she gets back on her feet. She is a stay at home mom with no possibility of employment.

Two months? Definitely. Not that I can put a date on your situation but things can change in a hurry depending on how well you do changing and sticking to good behavior and how receptive she is to giving you a shot believing you've changed.

It�s my hope that your W gives you another shot based on joining this program and it�s my hope she joins you in the journey. You�ll get a lot more accomplished if she is there being open and honest about your success or failure in meeting her needs and avoiding LBs.
So can you clarify something?
In one post you said this:

But then later said:

Those two sentences seem to conflict with each other.

Pay her bills? What bills?

Her rent, pge, etc. When she gets her own place.


At this point she is unwilling to work on it. Says we are separated and not a couple.

I will defer to the vets on this one but I'm quite certain you DO NOT PAY for a separation unless you're court ordered to. She's headed out the door and you have to show her that you aren't willing to simply walk away without doing everything possible under the sun to save the M.

Somewhere in this message to her you're going to have to make an attempt to sell her on this program. I want you to be careful though because this message could be of crucial importance. How you say it could make all the difference in the world.

I am a horrible wordsmith and was never able to deliver that message in a proper fashion to my W. My mistake was it always came across as me trying to educate her. This last time I didn�t try to sell it to her. I simply said �I am withdrawn. We�ve lost what we once had. We need to do something now or we�re not going to make it.�. She said she�d been looking for MCs. I almost jumped out of my pants saying �I would love it if we could try an MB counselor? �. She said YES! The rest is history.

I wonder if it would make a difference to her if you could tell her you aren't going to facilitate a separation but that you are in the infant stages of working a marriage building plan and that you are poised to do ALL the heavy lifting to make things better?

This will be waaaay easier if you stay in the same home. If she leaves she'll probably start dating ... which no one should do so long as they are still married.

I'd like to take a step back to get more info.


What exactly is it you were or weren't doing to cause your W to withdraw? From that we can game plan the best Plan A possible.

Where you:
Not meeting her needs?
LoveBusting?

How do I try to get her in the program if she says she is completely done and not willing to try??

I was not meeting her needs and love busting.

Spending too much time at the gym, too much time negative, never loving on her just to show her affection, never planning date nights or alone time for us.

I tried that. She said even giving me a chance would take energy from her and she would probably end up hurt anyways since I've promised to change so many times.

Before you failed on doing the things you needed to do because you didn�t have a plan. You had no plan on how to make your W fall deeply in love and to stay in love with you. Now you do. Assuming you buy into Dr. Harley's program. You should because yours is the perfect example of a M that needs Dr. Harleys� program.

For now you work the program regardless of her reaction to the work you put in or what she says. If she wants to end it that is her choice. She�ll do the heavy lifting there while you work Dr. H�s program as best you can one-sided.

I�m not sure the timing of when you say this but at some point you�re going to have to let her know of this new path you are taking. My gut tells me you should talk to her immediately about this. She�s already got one foot out the door . Telling her of your plans can�t hurt.

"I am so sorry I've hurt you over and over. I made poor attempts to recover what we lost. I did so because I didn't have a plan and no plan is a plan for failure. But now, today, I have found a plan. A plan built by a professional counselor who has restored thousands and thousands of marriages.

It is a wonderful plan that I know if I follow it is guaranteed to create a wonderful M. I wish I would have had this plan in place before we even married.

I hear you when you say it�s over. I know you no longer love me and I have no one to blame but myself for that. I want you to know I love you and because I do I am going to follow this plan and with it I WILL BE the H you thought I could be. With this plan I will be a BETTER H than you ever thought I could. I hope you can find it in your heart to stick around long enough to see me do it.
I would love it if you took a look. It is called Marriage Builders and you can read about it at www.marriagebuilders.com�

Maybe she won�t look right away, maybe she will. Regardless you need to educate yourself. You need to get these books and get going on this new plan.
Here is the basic outline of Dr H�s program. YOU CANNOT DO THIS PIECEMEAL. Do it all or don�t do it at all.

Do these as best you can given her withdrawal.

1). Meet her ENs. The ones she will let you meet. Conversation, Admiration, Non-physical affection (I assume there is no physical contact), Family Commitment.
2). No LoveBusting. There is zero tolerance for lovebusting. You warm her heart for weeks by meeting ENs � one LB blows that all to shreds.
3). UA Time. In a M couples need to spend at least 15 hours together each week � alone. Meeting the 4 top ENs of Intimate Conversation, Affection, Sexual Fulfillment ( you obviously can�t go here yet) and Recreational Companionship.
4). Learn to be Radically Honest (PORH). This is where she could help you a ton.
5). Learn the POJA. Implement it the best you can solo until she�s on board. Then you work it together . (POJA will be huge in your M).

mml,

I am off the board for the day and most likely the weekend. Feel free to keep posting here. It is slower on the weekends so don't be discouraged if you don't get a response immediately.

I hope we helped a little this week and I hope you are able to gain some momentum in trying to implement a plan.

Okay, well....I figured what the heck....(wife was going to meet a friend from bible study tonight anyways) so I pitched marriage builders to her.

She was listening but not too into it at first, still listened though. Told me her ENs and Love Busters. Still didnt seem to want to do it.

We made dinner together and had fun, talked about love busters and ENs some more.

Afterwards.....she had to go meet her friend. I said "hey, so do you think we can look into marriage builders?" she said "maybe. we will see"

so she said "either way, I want to get a job. I feel like I need something new. I love being a stay at home mom but i need something of my own."

so I said "okay, that works" and then she said "Also, dont expect somethign right up front. I am not sure right now if I can ever have those feelings again" I said "understood. So are we still doing your townhome?" and she said "yeah, the plan is for you to move in either way right?" I said "yes." so then she said "I really need to focus on my faith." I said "yes, we both do. Do you want to try going back to the Bride church or go to your parents church (they are pastors)?" she said "parents is too much of my comfort zone, bride is too much. Im thinking about CMA (the church we went to in the past up here, and I have been going to for bible study and counseling)."

I told her" Great. I love you. I am happy you are even considering it and I understand your position. See you later tonight...can we talk about it more when you get home?" she said "maybe. It depends when I get home"


So...much better than a NO. Still not a YES but closer!

mml, if you live together you are not "separated." You are MARRIED until you are DIVORCED. You *ARE* a couple. I would not agree to pay her bills or cooperate with a real separation. Don't contribute to your demise. Let her know you will support your marriage but you won't give her a dime if she leaves. And I would not allow her to take the kids without a court order.

You need to fight a little harder for your marriage and stop going along with her plans of destruction. Your complacence reflects a lack of caring.

Who is this "friend" she is seeing tonight? What snooping have you done to make sure she is not having an affair?

What snooping have you done?

Have you checked her phone records?

Put a keylogger on her computer?

Date the woman, and blow up the affair.

That's pretty much it.

I know you don't think there's an affair at the moment, but snoop like crazy anyway.

Meantime, start talking about how you want to have an integrated life with her, and then talk to her about whatever she wants to talk about every chance you get. Take her out to do something that you both think is fun, and use it as a pretense for talking.

How much difference can you make in two months? You can get a woman to fall in love with you in less than two months, using the above approach.

Meantime, start listening to Dr. Harley every day. You will learn a lot by repetition.

If you find yourself too emotional to follow through with this program, see a medical doctor about taking an antidepressant like Wellbutrin to clear your head so you will be able to do what you need to do.

I haven't read your whole thread, so please forgive me if this has already been covered:

Since your wife is not enthusiastic about your steroids and competitions, have you quit this? If you want to win her back, you shouldn't be spending time doing things she hates.

When you are spending 15-30 hours alone with her per week and 15 hours together with the kids each week, she will probably be much more enthusiastic about some of your personal interests, but she may still not be enthusiastic about this one.

This sounded like a pretty good exchange. Let�s hope there�s follow up on some of this. A good position for you to take is to implement this program. Don�t expect much from her. Let her see what is in it for her by receiving what you have to give and what you�re changing.

I will reiterate what the others have said too.

DO NOT facilitate any kind of separation. Don�t give her money to move out. Don�t help her look for new places. Let her know you are trying to keep the family together. That is in everyone�s best interest.

Did you see how well things went when you spent time together making dinner? Good. Do that times 10. Get as many hours together with her that you can and during that time focus entirely on those 4 most important ENs. You may want to hold of R talk for designated times. You don�t want to ruin fun times with her by talking about the M.

Her emotions will follow the actions. Just give her time to fall back in love by �
Meeting those ENs.
Avoiding ANY lovebusters.
Spending plenty of quality time together.
Implementing POJA.
Being radically honest.

Okay so ....I ordered the following :His needs, her needs. Fall in love, stay in love. Love Busters. Five steps to romantic love.


I am guessing we start with Love Busters? Any recommended time frame? Try to get spouse to read together? Seperately?

Still trying to figure out how to bring them up and start.