Just curious, are some of your children foster children or ones that have to be adopted that you need such stringent measures?? Also, how special needs are we talking? The likelihood of divorce goes WAY up with a special needs child.. I know Dr. Harley has talked about how difficult that is. I'm not remembering any solutions off the top of my head because if we are talking significant special needs ( I have a friend whose child needs 24 hour care..it is difficult and expensive.) then the babysitting is a significant issue.. Brainy, the expert on all clips, can you find some that deal with having a special needs child?

No, they are not foster children or adopted. They are just sheltered and very leery of people we don't know. It's not on purpose. They are sheltered because I am sheltered. We have no social life and they don't have interactions with anyone outside the home. The oldest does, because she goes to school, but that's it. As I've said, the only person they've ever been left with in their entire lives is my mother and they don't even like that much. I would like to change that, but it takes time. Building trust, especially with a stranger, takes time. I wouldn't even be comfortable (and neither would they) leaving them with a friend...if I had any.

Our middle child has autism...I would say moderate. used to be severe nonverbal, but she has come a long way. She pretty much does require constant care and attention while she is awake. She has some behavioral issues, her verbal skills are seriously lacking. She also needs to be watch constantly while she's eating (which she does almost constantly) due to a choking issue. Also, her and the youngest are still not potty trained. We are working on that, and potty training 2 kids is difficult in itself. All of this is frustrating for me a lot of times, I can imagine that it could be even more frustrating for an outside caregiver.

Thank you for your response tiredwife45!

I'm really surprised at how difficult this has been for me. I mean, I have been preparing emotionally to leave my husband for a long time. In only about a week or so, since I have been focusing all my energy on rebuilding my marriage, I really think I had started falling in love with him again. I knew it would be easy if we just tried. I had no ill will toward him...then. We had just gotten lost. I really don't have any hate or anything toward him now. I am just very hurt and disappointed. I think the most hurtful is that I'm seeing that he really doesn't care. I really thought he did. I know that everything will be ok, once I get a good plan in place to leave and am able to enforce it. But, man this sucks. Very stressful.

Ok, now that it has been discussed (for lack of a better word) with H, I will post here what is happening as I need support, please.

My husband has a huge amount of friends on FB because he is involved with this "Jeep" stuff. It has been become a huge circle of people who share the same interest. Going through is FB, I noticed he "liked" a few pics of this cute little punky type chick...this is the exact type of woman he is into. Mind you, I do not fit that description at all. Upon further investigation, I find that he friended her, not the other way around and I also find a message between them that took place. This message is NOT in his inbox where all of his other messages are. So, he tried to hide it. Here is the message that took place:

Him: how's the new gig?

Her: A little boring but I will make it work haha

Him: ah well...doing accounting work right?
I think boring is in the cards

Her: Yeah.. right now I'm going through the last 12 months check stubs to make sure none are missing.. the person before me was horrible at filing so my work is cut out for me

Him: well...at least you're busy....
yesterday at work
I did ABSOLUTELY nothing

Her: Well I'm sure there will be slow days.. and hey.. only 2 more days til the weekend lol

Him: true that
well ....have to get ready...
I promised I would find you here!
stay in touch

Her: Will do!

Now, I KNOW my husband and he was flirting! Here are some more points....First, he met her at a Jeep event he and his friends hosted a few days before. She DOES NOT have a JEEP! So, it's not like they share that interest. He obviously had a conversation with her at this event...That didn't need to happen. Second, he sought her out on FB "like he promised", "liked" photos of HER (not Jeep related) and messaged her. THEN, tried to hide it as it was the only conversation not in his inbox. Third, when I checked the computer history, it does show he was on at the time this message took place, but the message itself was deleted from the history. All of this shows he tried to hide it. He knew it was wrong!

Yesterday, when he came home from work, I went to take a nap. I look at the computer history and the first thing on there is "Her" messages. Now, I don't know if another message took place , that he deleted, or if he was just revisiting the old message. HE says he was trying to figure out what I was talking about, which obviously he already knew because he went right to it...if that's even the truth.

Here is some of what took place in our "conversation". He repeatedly told me I was crazy and needed to see a "shrink" (His go-to strategy). He said it was harmless (of course), He said he didn't delete anything (of course not). Insists he did nothing wrong and doesn't see anything wrong with this situation. Admitted to me that "she was intriguing". Said they talked about her boyfriend, that she doesn't love, but that there is another guy in California....blah blah blah... We all know that's no good. When I said to him that it took a long time for me to trust him with women after his A, and now I can no longer trust him, he said that we weren't even married during his PA and tried to throw an EA that I had (I don't agree with that, but whatever) up in my face and insist it was a PA (which it most definitely was NOT). I know that is his defense tactic. He just keeps saying hurtful things. He said that he has been waiting for me to leave for years since I've been saying I was going to and then brought up everything I have said to him in joking and saying all I do is put him down. I apologized as I wasn't trying to hurt him by saying those things to him in the past and would never have said them to him in marriage recovery. I was wrong, even though I didn't realize it at the time. I take responsibility for that. And finally, he said I was just looking for an excuse to leave. I didn't need an excuse, I was going to leave anyway and decided I wanted to fix our marriage instead.

The reason this is a deal breaker...He obviously cannot be trusted and him thinking it is ok to have female "friends" is a huge He knows better. Since he met this woman at a Jeep event (his independent behavior), I will no longer be able to trust him with this hobby. I also will not be able to trust him on FB. There is NO WAY he will give up all of this, including all of his friends, and I would never ask him to. The resent he would have for me even if he did would be huge and never ending. This is his entire life for the past 7 years (since his A). This is what I mean by there is no good solution to this. It hurts...a lot. And when I say that to him, he says that's why I need therapy, because I shouldn't be hurt by it.

Can someone please help me? This is rough.

Thanks for your support!

hangnthere,

Dr. Harley's position is that opposite-sex friends are not to be tolerated in marriage. He doesn't have opposite-sex friends, neither does his wife Joyce. And it's not because either one of them have had an affair. Actually, this is one reason that neither of them ever had an affair!

Flirting, opposite-sex friends, etc. - the simple fact is that you are not enthusiastic about these things, so your husband should not do them. If he refuses to give them up and follow The Policy of Joint Agreement, then it will absolutely lead to the end of your marriage, and Dr. Harley's recommendation would be for you to prepare for a separation to protect yourself from the heartbreak.


Telling you how you should feel is incredibly disrespectful. And again, Dr. Harley's position is that disrespectful judgments in marriage should not be tolerated at all. Again, Dr. Harley would say that if your husband simply refuses to end disrespectful judgments like these, you should prepare for a separation, because this abuse is going to lead to the end of your marriage.

I would tell your husband straight out that these things (the opposite-sex friends, the recreational events without you, facebook, and the disrespectful judgments) end, or you will not be able to continue going through life with him. And I would prepare for a separation and read up on Dr. Harley's Plan B.

We are sorry you are going through this kind of abuse, and we hope that your husband will choose to put a stop to it.

Plan B is crucial. You will feel much, much better when you are protected from this kind of behavior.

There is a chance your husband will decide to end his hurtful behaviors if he finds out that is what it is going to take to keep your marriage. In that case, I promise you you will feel much better!! I would recommend at that point getting into Dr. Harley's online course and getting professional help from Dr. Harley and his staff to help the two of you build a compatible enjoyable lifestyle that does not include independent recreational activities or Facebook.

Or, your husband may decide he's going to continue with the behaviors that hurt you. In this case, you will feel better after you get into Plan B, which will protect you from his harmful behavior.

markos,

Thank you for your help! And for your help with my husband. I really appreciate it. Man, this sucks! This is not what I want to do. Here's the point where I'm at. He deleted and blocked this woman (and another random one on FB). That's very helpful, but Facebook is not really the issue here. Don't get me wrong, I DID NOT want him having contact with her there or anywhere else, but I don't have a problem with him having FB in general. I have access to his FB accounts, always have.

Now we're left with the "Jeep" life. I don't know whether or not he's willing to leave all of that. I didn't ask him to. Honestly, I don't really want him to leave all of that and his friends behind. He's already done that once when he had his A. It wasn't pretty. That is all he has. His "real" friends (not the random people that are involved occasionally) are the only friends he has and I believe they are good for him. That is the only life outside of home and work he has. That is the only interest he has. It has become part of who he is. I believe that in general, this hobby has been good for him. And I have to say, I don't mind having an evening alone once a week or so either. Leaving everything would seriously suck for him. I know, because that is the life I live. And I DO NOT want that for him. And oh Geez, the resentment he would have toward me for that is unimaginable. I can tell you that EVEN if he did give all of that up, I can assure he would not be enthusiastic about it. BUT since that is where this situation occurred, I will have anxiety whenever he is doing that. I don't know how to rectify that situation.

Yes, we should definitely find an interest we can have together. Yes, we need to find someone to watch our kids so we can get out without them. Yes, we need to spend 20+ hours a week UA time together meeting the top 4 ENs. Without a solution, or an enthusiastic agreement about this, this is going to be a lose lose situation. If he gave all of that up, he would spiral into a deep depression and that isn't the husband I want either. Or I can leave...oh what to do?

hangnthere, the above is the basic problem in your marriage. The only life he has is with these friends and his Jeep club. Your MARRIAGE should be his "life." And since his friends and his JEEP club are his life, his marriage can't be. They are not good for him if they are his favorite leisure activity.

NOW, that is not to say that you and him couldn't engage with them as a COUPLE. Or that you couldn't go to some JEEP meets together [if you are enthusiastic about it] in the FUTURE after you have established each other as your favorite leisure activity.

Having a hobby and a social life outside of your spouse is very unhealthy for marriages. And having a facebook account is how affairs begin. He doesnt' need that facebook account. Anyone who has had an affair does not have any business having a facebook account.


His "enthusiasm" about giving up a hobby that is bad for your marriage is not required, so don't worry about that. If it is bad for your marriage, it should be given up. And yes, it is bad for your marriage.

It is not his resentment that is the problem, but YOUR RESENTMENT. Your resentment will be much harder to ever overcome.

Your husband has very, very poor boundaries around women. He is at high risk for having an affair. Facebook is a very dangerous place for him to be. It needs to go.

And as long as his Jeep life is his most favorite recreational activity, and as long as it doesn't include you, anything he does with you will pale in comparison. It will be impossible for the two of you to build passionate marriage. Is this something you are willing to do with him? If not, it needs to go.

By maintaining separate social and leisure lifestyles, you and your husband are cultivating and creating an incompatible marriage. The longer this goes on, the more detached you will become and the harder it will be to create an integrated, fulfilling marriage.

here

Thank you MelodyLane and Prisca!

We are going to have to seriously look at this and discuss it and come to a mutually enthusiastic agreement. The Jeep thing may have to be put on hiatus until we rebuild our marriage. I don't want to ask him to give it up completely...I think his having friends (close male friends) is good for him. I know it would be good for me to have some close female friends. I have to figure out if I am able and/or willing to accompany him to these events where more than just his close circle of (male) friends will be (enthusiastically).

IF he were willing to put all of this (Jeep stuff) on the back burner until our marriage got to a place where we spending most of our recreational time/activities together and a place where I felt I wanted to go with him and/or felt comfortable allowing him to go alone (only close male friends present) occasionally (I do like to spend some time away from him or we really get on each other's nerves)Would this be a good agreement? Or is there something I'm not thinking of?

Keep in mind that he won't be "enthusiastic" about giving up his jeeping at first. He will be resentful until you replace it with something better. So don't look for enthusiasm, look for commitment.


I agree it should be put on hiatus until you rebuild your marriage. This is what it will take to make your marriage MORE attractive than his personal activities.


Not really. Friends are not necessary to have a healthy marriage and should never be placed before marriage. His friends are a distraction from your marriage.


Not necessarily. If you have to get your needs met outside of marriage, there is something wrong.


If you get on each others nerves, there is something wrong in the marriage. When you use this program and become each others favorite leisure activity, you won't want to squander your free time on friends or other actitives. The goal is to create an integrated lifestyle, not an unhealthy, dysfunctional marriage where you lead separate social lives.

Understood! Thank you!


I absolutely agree that his friends should never come before the marriage. But this next part confuses me.


What? Neither of us should have friends? Even when our marriage is thriving? (I don't mean now) I don't understand.


I currently spend all of my time in the house, dealing with children, pets, housework, bills and my husband. I never get a moment's peace. No time to myself, unless my husband is gone or asleep and my children are asleep. Sometimes, I need that time to recoup, relax, reflect. Maybe that perspective would change if my marriage was healthy. I won't know unless and until that happens.

Find couples that will complement your marriage. And spend time with them AFTER you have got in 15-20 hours of UA time. Don't let them distract you from your marriage. When your marriage is happy, you will be very stingy with any time spent with friends.


And this is the problem this program will resolve. If you do this right, you would much rather be OUT on a date with your husband than somewhere ALONE. The only reason you want to be alone is because your marriage is not a happy place.

The best way to change your perspective is start going out 4 x per week on romantic DATES. OUT of the home. Try and get in 4 - 4 hour dates.

NOW, you can still enjoy your time alone when everyone is asleep. There is nothing wrong with that. AS LONG as you have been with your husband out on dates for 15 hours per week.

Everything Prisca and MelodyLane have posted for you is pretty much exactly what I think Dr. Harley would say.

Nix the Facebook, nix the recreational activities, and become each other's favorite recreational companions. Dr. Harley is not opposed to individual recreational activities, but only under these conditions:

* only if you are spending fifteen or more hours per week together meeting each other's intimate emotional needs (recreation, conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment)
* only if you are each other's favorite recreational companions (i.e., only if the time you are spending together is the BEST time and the other activities are not as good as that)
* only if your spouse is enthusiastic about how you want to spend your time (example: Joyce Harley did not want to see Star Wars, so Dr. Harley saw it alone. However, Joyce did NOT want either one of them to see Da Vinci Code, so Dr. Harley didn't see it, either with her or alone)
* only if it is not an activity spent with people of the opposite sex

You guys have a lot of work to do becoming each other's favorite recreational companions, so I suggest dropping the Facebook and individual activities FAST without a lot of discussion or dawdling. Those are really little-bitty steps before the big work, and if you obsess over those forever you'll never get to the really important stuff.

Thank you so much! All of you are a fantastic help! It is so appreciated!

H and I talked last night. We agreed that he will not being going to friends' houses or Jeep events, etc. until further notice. The only issue now is that his Jeep is at his friend's house in need of repair. So he will need to get it and his belongings (tools, parts, etc) back here to repair it. This has to happen so he can drive it daily as he is currently using my vehicle to take to work everyday and I need it back to run errands, take the kids places, what have you. He's going to see if a friend will tow it here for him. We will work this part out.

He can still contact his friends via phone, texts, forums, whatever as long as it doesn't interfere with our UA time. I will be monitoring everything as well. He offered to shut everything down, and he can do that if he wants, but I don't need that from him. There will be absolutely no interruptions during our time together.

After the agreements were made, we had an AMAZING night together. I will leave it at that. I don't know why we've been wasting all this time not loving each other. Such a shame!

We still need to do the EN & Love Buster questionnaires and schedule out our UA time. We NEED to work on getting a babysitter so we can get out on dates, but until we can make that happen we will have to spend UA time at home and we will have to get creative about it. We understand the importance of getting out together and will work hard to make that happen ASAP, but in the meantime, I'm not going to let that hurdle get in the way of spending time with my husband. So, we have to do what we have to do.

I have to say, I am so excited to get my marriage back on track after all these years. I'm going to continue to read the wealth of information here. I KNOW this program works. That's why I came back here. It's the ONLY thing that saved my marriage the first time. Sadly, we didn't keep up with it and we see where that landed us. I KNOW falling back in love with my husband will be EASY if we follow the plan. I am truly grateful for all of you who help guide us lost souls through this process. Sometimes it's "tough love", but sometimes that's what it takes to get through to us.

Find a babysitter today.

Please have him end the Facebook. Facebook involvement is murder on vulnerable marriages.

Well, even if we could find one today, we can't afford to pay them or go out on dates, so that has to be figured out as well. We are currently behind on bills. We need to get it together financially and figure out a way to make it work. IDK if you saw the earlier post where I said it would be a minimum of $600/week for us to get a sitter to go out for 20 hrs/week. That's not counting the cost of the dates. There is NO WAY! That's more than double our rent.