My H had a job that originally required him to travel from London to Belgium perhaps twice a month, for two or three days each time.

After I endured my first FR (with the affair being buried for two years, and growing very deep and "loving" during that time), and became hysterical each time I was told he needed to travel again, he cut his travelling time to only two or three days per month.

That did not stop the affair one iota from continuing. The intensity was maintained and even enhanced by daily phone-calls and frequent emails from his office, which I could not monitor, and by the meetings being all the sweeter for being "forbidden" and rationed. In fact, something I did not know was that OW had taken a job in a neighbouring country from Belgium (Luxembourg) and was renting a flat there. This meant that she was out of her H's sight from early Monday morning until late Friday. She chose not to have a land-line laid on at the flat, and told her H that there was no landline installed in her new office at work, so he could only call her on her mobile phone at any time. That meant that he never knew that sometimes she was back in Belgium, spending the night in my H's hotel room, when her H thought he was speaking to her in Luxembourg.

I even spent a weekend in Belgium with him during one of our "make up" events after yet another D Day, and only found out nearly a year later from her H (when I finally exposed to him) that as I checked out of the hotel to return to my job in London, leaving my H there for another two nights, she was waiting in the lobby in order to stay in his room, no doubt to have sex on the unwashed sheets that I had just vacated.

(Good grief; there are whores, and then there are whore who have no regard for hygiene.)

Anyway, this pattern of his only staying for two to three nights per month continued through about the 8th FR, until OW began leaving text messages on his mobile phone for me to find (she worked out I must be snooping and deleting the messages I opened). The length of that particular FR was 11 months, until I decided that I did not care how strongly he denied seeing her; I was moving out. He went into work the very next day after I said this and refused to travel ever again, telling his employers that his marriage was in trouble. They were very understanding and arranged cover for him at meetings abroad, but this was not easy for them to do. He eventually took a demotion and pay cut, and found a non-travelling job in the organisation. Nonetheless, the phone calls between them continued for 5 freaking years, and contact only finally finished when he retired from work altogether. Now he is at home with me most of the time, and our son or daughter are there when I'm in the office. I have spyware, and I know that he is not using the home PC to write to her. Frankly, I think that the long-distance affair has become more trouble than it is worth to maintain any more, but if it were easier, they would be trying to keep in contact.

The point of this very long story on your thread is to express amazement that either you or Steve H thought that any overnight travel could be acceptable after an affair, and especially after you had already had a FR. My H only stayed away 2 or three nights a month after I discovered that he had taken his affair underground, but he still continued it on those two or three nights - and some of the time that he called me from his hotel room, she must have been there, silently, right beside him. Keeping in frequent contact means nothing. To hope that your grief or the ecstasy of your new beginnings will keep him away from OW when there is easy access to her is to profoundly misunderstand the nature of affair addiction, and to ignore everything that Dr H has ever said about that subject.

How many nights does it take for someone to have sex with someone else in a hotel room? Why is a week not okay but two nights okay? Two whole nights is far longer than most affairs get, where the partners live in the same town and have to have a quick fumble in the car park or the toilets at work! Two nights is complete luxury! It is more than adequate to maintain a deep and hot-n-heavy affair for a long time.

I'm astonished at Steve's "support" for the two or three night deal. I'm glad that Dr H was so unequivocal in his answer to you. I'm sorry to say this, but I'd be amazed if your H and OW have never met during one of his trips, even after your coaching with Steve. I dearly hope that this isn't so.

ITA.

Also part of the reason for EPs (aside from preventing an affair) is to help a BS heal. How nerve-wracking it must be wondering during these overnight apart what your WS is up to while they are away? What a way to keep the affair top of mind, the exact opposite of what Dr Harley wants.

Not to mention, having a traveling job where he would be away 2-3 nights at a clip is going to prevent you two from getting proper UA time in. Again, exact opposite of what you should be doing while you are trying to recover from an affair. I think Melody has posted about what a disconnect there was between her H and herself while they were spending nights apart.

Are you two going to follow Dr Harley's advice on this issue?

What an awful, awful story, Sugar! Thank you for sharing it, and hammering the point home.

In our case, I have put in such snooping methods and precautions as to be confident that there is no contact now with the Dolly. (She has no money, and Taffy would have to be the one to pay for her flights/hotel, however, he cannot do this without me knowing as I manage all our funds, for one thing. For another, all his travel, since final NC, has been to restricted areas where she would not be allowed. Thirdly, since exposure, I have enlisted the help of his superiors and co-workers in keeping him accountable at the workplace.)

However, the reason I wrote the email on the private forum thread, is because in the LB book, Dr. Harley said he and Joyce AVOIDED being apart, and Taffy highlighted this during our study. I wanted to confirm that the Harley's did not mean "TRY to be together", but "MUST be together overnight."

I admit that I was apprehensive when Steve suggested that it was possible to us to spend a few nights apart, if we took extra time Skyping/FaceTime-ing for UA. However, Taffy kept pushing the boundaries, so that at one point early on it got to be 5 nights apart, and he arrived home at 1:30 a.m. on the sixth night. That's when I really put my foot down.

I will say that posters here told me earlier that Steve will work with people to find a way for their predicament to work out. He takes the individual's wishes into account, which, in this case, I think caused the "rule bend." But I never liked it.

Also, I did not write the EP list. Steve had Taffy come up with a "Vulnerability Protection Plan" to present to me. While they're pretty good, I think there are items I would have included which were not. (A requirement to post on the forum weekly would be one.)

Since Dr. Harley's answer yesterday, Taffy and I have agreed that I will accompany him on ALL his trips between now and his retirement in a few years. His superiors have just announced a policy that encourages spouses tagging along (though we will still pay my expenses.)

Thanks again, Sugar, for sharing your story and your concern.

You are correct, Susie. Any time apart overnight has been difficult for me. We were still able to keep our UA up, though, averaging 25 to 30 hours per week. On the few weeks we've dipped below 20, I notice increased frustrations and a drawing apart from each other.

Since Dr. Harley's adamant response, we have agreed (enthusiastically) that I will accompany Taffy on all overnights.

Glad to see the POJA put to good use! Happy to see you two are making strides.

Glad to see the POJA put to good use! Happy to see you two are making strides. [/quote]

Thanks, Tranq!

BTW, I think you are doing a formidable job in your battle!

Is it possible there was a misunderstanding, catwhit?

That's great!

Melody, if you mean could we possibly have misunderstood Steve saying a few nights apart was manageable, i really do not think so. I carefully took notes of all our conversations. There was more than one occasion where we were potentially to have nights apart, and then in the follow up calls with Steve, we discussed the outcome.

I was quite surprised by this, and questioned Steve quite a few times. He wasn't exactly endorsing it, but was giving us "how to manage" tips. He presented the VOiP (Skype/FaceTime) idea. I was prepared to give it a try, if necessary, but never liked it. So I am very relieved with Dr. Harley's pronouncement. No nights apart for us, ever, is better for me.

Thanks, Prisca. It IS great. And I am proud of a company that supports their employees' marriages! Not often the case, with these companies that require lots of travel.

How refreshing to see a company emphasizing marital protection!

Yes, Neak...Refreshing, and empowering for the employees!

I have developed a very good relationship with one of the HR directors. She recognizes how much affairs cost the company. Taffy has talked to her about MB, and she is considering using it as a resource. Now that would be amazing!

Help!!!! UA and apart overnight emergency!!!
Just learned tonight that Taffy's course (scheduled for Calgary, full week next week, which we planned for me to also attend) has been postponed to the following week in Nevada, which I can only attend for 3 days, due to other commitments. Then, the following week,Taffy is now planning to go to Chile for 10 days. I COULD go to Chile, but I cannot go to the work site for security reasons, so we would only be together for 3 or 4 evenings of the 10 days.
We haven't finished negotiating, but I am not seeing how I will "win" this one. Taffy thinks that it is "just work" so I should not worry/ be effected. And besides, "I have to go to work..."
Any suggestions??

For the trip postponed a week: Can't you cancel your commitments? There is no other commitment more important than your marriage. People may not like it when you cancel, but your marriage must come first. There is NO way I would be happy with my H on a trip to Las Vegas without my presence there with him every single night.

For the trip to Chile: is this for work then? You said in a recent post that the company is sympathetic to marriages and the problems that travel and adultery cause. Dr. Harley has stated very clearly that when the spouse does not agree to something, it is NOT done. Therefore, you and your H need to brainstorm about how to handle this travel. You both should find a way that he can be with you every single night, and, during the daytime and work hours where he is not with you, you need to be able to know where he is at all times. Or he should let his company know he can't go on this trip.

It's called the Policy of Joint Agreement. He can not go unless you are enthusiastic about it. It sounds like what is going on here is a presumption that the default condition is that he does go, but the default is really that he can *not* go. So, how is it that you lose? - other than your regret that he will miss out on his planned activity?

It is disrespectful for him to tell you how you should feel about this. He is preventing negotiation, and he should not go until the two of you negotiate a solution.

Be sure and put this disrespectful judgment down on your weekly worksheet for him. Love Busters will prevent recovering your marriage, so this problem (DJs) needs to be kept on the front burner.

Four Guidelines For Successful Negotiation


You guys are stuck at Guideline One and can't negotiate until you sweep the minefield clear of DJs, like him telling you how you should feel. He can't go until you negotiate, and you can't negotiate when he is telling you how you should feel. It's as simple as that.

While you are at the impasse, you can think about the problem privately on your own and let it incubate. But you can't negotiate until he gives up the DJs.

I agree that you two should brainstorm how to handle this (whether you go with him or he cancels, etc) but, cat, EPs are not negotiable. Does your H understand this?

EPs such as overnight apart are designed not only to prevent another affair but to make a BS feel safe. Does your H understand this? It doesn't sound like he does which is disappointing given that he has been through the program.

Didn't Dr. Harley tell you that you two should never spend the night apart? Ever?

MrEureka;

I don't know for sure, and will ask him about it next opportunity. But it seems like to me that he cannot see his way around these business trips, and feels like since it is for work, NOT something he himself is choosing to do (like a recreational activity) that it shouldn't matter, or that it is somehow excusable.

He has said to our friends that he has been asked to go on these trips, but he will have to see if I give him permission. I don't want to be his jailer!

It seems that we are good at POJA when it comes to things we agree on, or that we don't particularly care about. (Like the practice sessions in our MB course.) When it is otherwise, the wheels fall off.