Congrats. I knew that what kind of happened. I just hope you both are using the MB reconciliation and not just winging it. Please post more if you can your story was and is amazing. Like to see how things shake out for you.

Thanks TranquilDark. No, not winging it at all. I have come too far and learned too much to allow myself to half [censored] anything. I'm much stronger now and I have put my foot down. To my surprise, I haven't gotten any push back. We are taking things slow and each day has gotten better and better. I will update more later. Take care

This is great news GJM. I have been praying for the both of you. It certainly sounds like you you have a plan in place. An intact family is always best for the children. How are they adjusting with all the transitions they have faced? Will your wife and yourself be working the MB plan for recovery?

I remember the day Susie posted this to you.

Your WWs SSL was present your entire marriage. Can you post her EPs?

Thank you for the heartwarming update.

I am rooting for you!

Good luck. Has she read Dr. Harley's books?

.

I hope you aren't living in a shack up renter relationship

Wow what amazing news! Almost two years to the day since you got here, too.

I always thought she'd see this was by far the better option for her.

But you have quite a few hills to climb in this recovery, don't you?

For a start, she has an enabling wayward family, hasn't she? What is the plan regarding them?

I'd like to hear about her EPs and would advise a poly too. She's had a SSL and needs to start fresh with the truth.

Thanks for sharing GJM.

Please tell us more.

I am sorry but I don't share the enthusiasm that the other posters do, and I am concerned that you haven't shared your W's specific plan to protect your M and family into the future...because as a multiple offender she should really put extra-Extraordinary Precautions into place.

Your M has been (as you described) a rollercoaster ride from the start - with three separations, each time your W returning to the M, promising to make things up to you, things being improved for a while only for her to backslide into old habits.... so I am very worried that the pattern could just repeat itself here, GJM. I can only imagine that your older children are feeling much the same way.

Here are my specific questions/concerns and I hope that you will come back and discuss these things with us:

1) Poly - I believe you said you were going to ask for this but then we never heard anything more.

You said you suspected an affair during the first separation and your W has adamantly denied this. GJM, if you have read here at all you know separation = someone in the wings. Your W herself has followed this very pattern. Affair #2, apparently your W has described to you as a ONS - but coincidentally at the same time as discovery, she moved out for a few months. Red flag that you haven't been told the truth again.

You cannot sweep these details under the rug - they must be dealt with so that you can determine the conditions that led to those affairs to develop & implement ironclad EPs. Not to mention this will be a good sign that your W has indeed decided to make a commitment to becoming honest.

2) You haven't told us much about how your W feels about MB. Is she willing to go on the radio show? Counsel with SH? Enroll in the online program? Post here? What are her EPs?

I have already told you before, I would want to see my ex jumping through hoops in order to feel confident there would actually be a true commitment to eliminating the behaviors (dishonesty + IB) that led to his affairs. After ddays in 2007, my ex posted here and was actually on the radio show with me. But if I had really looked honestly at what he was doing, there was not a whole lot of effort towards working the program on his own, rather he was just letting me do most of the work. And you can see how that ended up.

So can we hear more about what your W is doing to show you that she is committed towards working the program? And if she hasn't made any such commitment, then just tell us that.

3) Last OM - the last time you posted here you told us that he was calling your W daily at the work office for past six months (despite his W watching from her end). This is a loophole that cannot be left open, GJM. What has been done about this?

4) As Indie pointed out, your W's family's support of her affairs is a real big problem. Is there any plan with regard to them?

I am very happy for you and your family. I know you have learned a lot and are a smart guy. Congrats.

Ditto on what SusieQ said.

Thank you for your support and your 2 x 4s. I will try not to get too personal because it's tough to paint a picture that some are not willing to see. I will try to cover as much as possible.

Lie detector-After two years of separation and divorce, the only question I need answered is, will it happen again? I in fact know that she was with someone else, she had intercourse with that person, she caused more than enough turmoil in our family that none of us deserved. The other details I don't really care to know.

EPs-I have put my demands and needs on the table prior to us agreeing that we wanted to date again. I received full compliance and agreements in all areas. There are no nights out alone. I have all passwords to accounts. Her phone is available at a moments request. Old email accounts deleted. She actually checks in with me when she is at work or needs to go to the store. It feels more like a courtesy than a task. It's actually pleasant because there's more of a willingness to it. I've brought up all of what I fear and know she is capable of. She said she understands and whatever she needs to do to make me feel safe, she will do. We spend all of our time off together. That's a big one. We both see a change in each other and enjoy each other's company.

Honestly, I am very watchful of different moods, behavior patterns and cautious of how slow or fast things are going. She has no benefits anymore, doesn't receive any money from me, nor does she get anything by us being back together. Marriage is not on the table. I think the benefits and finances are the one thing that is different when it comes to us getting back together. She knows that if she messes this up again, the kids and everyone else will be pretty upset again and I don't believe she is willing to face that with them being older and understanding more now.

Enablers-I don't talk to her family. She has gone to see them with my daughter and came home the same day. Other than that, I have no reason to talk to them. My boys don't talk to them either.

Dr Harley would encourage you to get all the BASIC facts. Otherwise you both could be seeing an OM behind a grocery counter every day whom you don't even know exists. I agree there's no need for her to write you a novel, but you should know about every affair! And how to eliminate the conditions which led to each.



This sounds great, GJM. I do see why her attitude is appealing and reassuring. Is it enough for remarriage to a former serial cheat? No, not really. I would revisit these EPs if you do consider proceeding.

Also, ignore Susie Q at your peril. She knows so much about extra-extraordinary precautions and SSL's because she has counselled personally with Dr H on these very topics. I am not saying swallow her advice wholesale when you don't like the taste, but at least enquire further with the Harleys when she waves a red flag.



I'll let others who have more experience with wayward relatives take the lead here but it sounds like she is still very much in with them. Taking your daughter to see them? Seeing them at all? After what they helped her do?

If she were to have another A they would be right there cheering her on... Are these the people you both as a couple want to have contact with?

Were you in enthusiastic agreement about that visit?

Marriage is not on the table?

If not, what is the point of all this? So you can control her behavior?

I've heard Dr Harley recommend a WW be dated for a while post divorce in order to sound her out.

I think GJM simply meant that it isn't on the table until he feels more reassured.. Not that he would never marry her ever.

Though I don't want to put words in his mouth

GJM,

You did a herculean job of Plan A'ing your FWW, and since the whole point of your Plan A was to save your marriage, then I think it is reasonable that you keep the door open to recovery. Now that you are divorced it is up to you if you want to recover your relationship. No 2x4's from me. Though I do agree with the advice from others here to be very cautious.

I like it that you are taking it one date at a time. That is wise and over time it should enable you to see if your FWW has made the internal changes that are required for her to be trustworthy. It will also enable both of you time to put into practice Dr. Harley's principles.

And that leads to my biggest question, GJM. I may have missed it, but has your FWW read any of Dr. Hareley's books? Her enthusiastic and genuine buy-in to the program is the critical piece of all of this, in my opinion.

Just to share my own experience in relation to this, my wife and I divorced after a year-and-a-half ordeal. A few months after the divorce was finalized she came out of the fog. I was not eager to get back into the relationship because of the anger and hurt. In fact, her return triggered months of intense pain that I thought I had let go of. But I was committed to the idea of the marriage covenant, and so we dated first to see how things might shake out. The old flame ignited pretty fast. Once I realized that there was a chance of rebuilding our marriage, I set conditions for a possible recovery, which included:

1) A no contact letter. She had already ended things with her AP once we started dating, but I wanted something to go out in writing. I also required her to give me his contact information so I could send my own no-contact letter to him. I wanted to scare him, and I used some pretty forceful language to persuade him that it was in his best interest to disappear forever. Never heard from his sorry @$$ again.
2) Complete transparency. I did ask her to share everything about the POSOM.
3) 15 hours of UA time together per week.
4) POJA and Radical Honesty
5) She must read all of Dr. Harley's books and agree to follow his key principles.

After one week, she did not take time to read Dr. Harley's books. So I told her that we had no chance of recovery and I ended the dates. I was clear and assertive, and I didn't waste energy or time letting her know that I meant business. I wasn't going to go through this with a half-baked effort, because I figured that would result in another marital catastrophe. NO thanks. So when my FWW saw that I was really serious about the EP's she then showed a complete willingness and enthusiasm to go through them. This accelerated the recovery process and my trust in her. Her buy-in was very important. We were able to fully recover because of it, and she has even recommended Dr. Harley's books to other people, so sold is she on the principles.

What is your WW's view on Harely?

Are you dating or living together?

That question can't be answered in the polygraph, though. She can't answer for something that has not happned. But you can answer that question. Unless she affair proofs your relationship and makes a radical change in her approach, then you can assume you will be facing more affairs in the future.

Has she made radical changes in her lifestyle? Has she opened up her lifestyle so it would be impossible to cheat again? If not, you can safely predict that your future will be just like your past.