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I frequently wonder why she would want post dday me. Why don't you ask her? Because she made "a mistake and loves me". May have be nice to maybe just once remember that when it mattered most. Today it rings hollow.
Life keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping into the fuuuu-ture.
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Mike, I'm sorry, but I haven't read your whole 'musings' thread. But I remember originally that you were very motivated to recover your marriage. Did you and your wife counsel with Dr. Harley? Do any of the lessons?
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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Nope, we're done. Speaking to lawyers this week. We agreed that I'm not able to live with what's happened...
So......POSOM wins?
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Nope, we're done. Speaking to lawyers this week. We agreed that I'm not able to live with what's happened...
So......POSOM wins? I dunno, NG. I don't think POSOM wins, loses or draws. He's no longer part of the equation. It's all about Mike and his wife, now. And I suspect (Mike, correct me if I'm wrong) that Mike and his wife went back to business as usual and haven't incorporated MB into their lives. Just my thoughts. Has Mrs. Mike been here and I missed it? Does she know about MB? Does she know you post here? Mike, if that is the case, you haven't done all you can do to recover this marriage. Still your call, though, sir.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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And i know full well its not conducive to recovery. Do you want some help recovering? Such is a reason i write it: the irony of knowing what is wrong yet not being able to understand it. Did you read my post above? So many questions I've asked in posts like this one, and they've been ignored and gone unanswered. More stones that have gone unturned. I would like to do anything I can to help you find happiness in the future. That's one of the reasons I post here.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Please, Mike - get yourself to a mental health professional. One who believes in getting out of depression by changing your life - not useless talk therapy that makes it go on forever while you talk about it. It is high time to find out what to do to bring happiness back into your life.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I try to take my wifes remorse and guilt and shame to heart. She can't undo what was done and expressed on every occasion she wants me. Therefore I am learning to not ask things that may bring info I really don't want. Its a swallowing of the need to know that which you don't know.
I found it gets easier.
It sounds like your sitch at home is similar to mine. Remember a remorseful wife is about as good as it gets for us early on.
_________________________
The secret to happiness is a good sense of humor and a bad memory. (Unknown author, but rings true to me.)
Mike,
The above quote was written on the very first page of my thread when I first limped here over a year ago.
I am where I am in recovery because of MB principles and the inspiration and hope you and so many others gave me early on!
I am going to miss THAT Guy!
Me 59 newly married after being a widow
Married 1 year
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Have a talk with Jennifer Chalmers or Steve Harley.
xFWW(me)-48
Married-14 years
D-Day~23-May-11
NC- 14-Apr-11
1 DS 15
Online course July '11 to July '12
17 sessions with S. Harley Feb '12 to Sep '12
Divorced Jan 21, 2013
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Nope, we're done. Speaking to lawyers this week. We agreed that I'm not able to live with what's happened...
So......POSOM wins? I dunno, NG. I don't think POSOM wins, loses or draws. He's no longer part of the equation. It's all about Mike and his wife, now. And I suspect (Mike, correct me if I'm wrong) that Mike and his wife went back to business as usual and haven't incorporated MB into their lives. Just my thoughts. Has Mrs. Mike been here and I missed it? Does she know about MB? Does she know you post here?Mike, if that is the case, you haven't done all you can do to recover this marriage. Still your call, though, sir. Mike, I haven't read your entire thread. Have you asked your wife to use this program? You know it will help, but is she familiar with any MB principles? Before talking to lawyers, isn't it worth a try? Has she ever posted here? I am where you are a lot, resigning my depression to fatalism, wallowing (and I hate that word) and floundering in the instability, turmoil, and guttural hurt that I lived through during my FWH's A w/ FR. I relive it like a bad dream every day. Which is better? Permanent separation from the remorseful FWW who loves you - the wife you wanted back and have now, or trying the options posters here have suggested (i.e. counseling with the Harleys; showing your wife MB; seeking treatment for depression and PSTD; incorporating strategies into your days to help you live in the present and enjoy what you have? Just something to think about.
Married 31 years, 5 kids, 4 GK
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Because she made "a mistake and loves me". May have be nice to maybe just once remember that when it mattered most. Today it rings hollow. Unfortunately Mike, you made the same mistake and love her. Perhaps a call on Dr. Harley's Radio show might illuminate one of the dark paths before you or might put some light on your current state. I grabbed a couple quotes from you over the years. Wish you the best. I keep on thinking of what CV said 100 posts ago or so "you won, she chose you" and thats really what its about. I have the words printed and in my wallet and on my desk.
...
She said to me last night during our calm conversation, she owes me 7 years when she was here, but not with me. Not sex, but seven years of her. And she really did start dda Im doing really great actually. Turning some corners in this thing. My wife is doing great as she has full time work lined up for Sept and she's really growing up. We are passed a lot of the woulda, shoulda, and coulda stuff that i was laying on her and the mental movies that dominated me are much less part of my daily being. On a Monday night date with FWW last night, she asked me if I was happy and I said yes, and I asked her and she said yes.
I thought then it'd be appropriate to move my thread here, but I simply started this new one since we are In Recover Another thing a great FWS like mine has done has made sure Im not alone. Its when Im in a mood that she'll back off and that loneliness becomes intense. She really cant win. Comfort me when Im angry and risk getting into an
bad mood herself or ignore me as to stay clear of my mood and exasperate my anxiety. After a month of less that stellar adherence to the 'dont bring up the A' rule, we got a refresher on why we got marriage in the first place. Havng great SF and tons UA is awesome. But it doesnt remove the things in my head. Did I mention Im a superhero?
Me-41 (WW)
DH-46 (BH)
DD-7, DS-11, DD-15
Together 20 years, married 16
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Mike's story should be a cautionary tale to all BSs of the dangers in repeatedly bringing up the affair. The differences between the early hopeful posts and the later hopeless ones document the dwindling love bank balances resulting from all those negative conversations. I don't believe that this was caused by the duration of the LTA, because I know I could do the same thing to my marriage if I didn't take the warning seriously.
me-65
wife-61
married for 40 years
DS - 38, autistic, lives at home
DD - 37, married and on her own
DS - 32, still living with us
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Agree. I still find this today to be the most difficult of things to do. I do MUCH better than in the past bringing up my FWW A, but I do slip at times and want to ask more questions I think in search of hopefully hearing better answers.
With me, it boils down to the alternative. I would rather work through this process, than to say goodbye to my wife and family situtation. Yes, I hurt everyday, but for me, right now, as long as my spouse continues to be accoutable and a part of this recovery program, I feel I owe that to myself and her.
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I only know this much, my path today is littered with my wife being someones girlfriend with all the associated perks. Cannot shake any of it. It is solely due to the sheer lenghth of time she opted for the life. It was less of a conscious decision and more of a lifestyle she saw little problem in maintaining. I will never be able to forgive her for that.
Not sure how to pretend what she did doesn't eat me alive everyday.
I frequently wonder why she would want post dday me. I've changed very little except a major depression disorder. I get all these emotions, but this is a red flag for me. Never being able to forgive is your own stubborness to remain miserable. You'll eventually have to forgive her or you will always be miserable, whether that's now, later or never is up to you. You don't have to stay married, but you will have to forgive if you ever want to recover your happiness in life. My advice would be to stop punishing yourself and forgive her now, rather than later, recover your marriage and work the MB program to the fullest. That way you don't punish your kids in the process from having to go from home to home. That they don't become yet another miserable social statistic of how divorces negatively impact children. It's definitely your prerogative but my advice is to work MB with your wife who seems willing, but then also get closer to God and understand what His wise and holy purpose of marriage is. I'm convinced Dr. Harley is a tool in His hands to help bring out the best in marriages and to fulfill His wise and holy purpose for marriage. **EDIT** �The best thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.�
― John Wooden, Wooden: A Lifetime of Observations and Reflections On and Off the Court Marriage Builders simply teaches HOW to best do these things. How to stay true to your commitments, your vows, it teaches how to repent, how to forgive, how to build a better marriage. How to become more unified and whole. My last quote I'll leave is this: Stephen Covey was asked after a speech about how to forgive someone who has committed adultery. He said the question made him think of the old prayer, "Oh Lord, let me forgive those who sin differently than I do."
~ Stephen Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People I hope you can find it in your heart, through God's help, to forgive your wife before you end the only stability your children may know in life. If your wife is truly penitent then the greater sin is on those who choose not to forgive. Matthew 6:14 should be memorized by you. I hope this helps. Take care Mike. We're all rooting for you.
Last edited by PhoenixMB; 06/18/13 09:49 AM. Reason: TOS - nonMB material
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I hope you can find it in your heart, through God's help, to forgive your wife before you end the only stability your children may know in life. If your wife is truly penitent then the greater sin is on those who choose not to forgive. Matthew 6:14 should be memorized by you. HH, I think there is some very valuable information about forgiveness in your post that can be applied in other arenas, but they should not be applied to adultery. When there has been adultery, a better approach is just compensation. Dr. Harley puts it like this: First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.
But we generally don't think of money when we think of the need of forgiveness. Instead, we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example. Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.
To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.
I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.
In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money. In Mike's case, anyone who is truly in a recovered marriage knows that the reason he is still resentful is not because he has never forgiven, but because he has not diligently utilized this program. For example, I have never forgiven my husband and I don't have a speck of resentment. My marriage is happy and thriving. I can point to many, many others who are in the same boat. Saying that you forgive someone does not eliminate resentment, nor does one NEED to forgive to eliminate resentment. Interestingly enough, I have been the victim of 2 affairs, one in my current marriage and one in the last. I have forgiven neither. My husband gave me just compensation and I have not a second of resentment. I am in a happy, passionate, intimate marriage. My XH never gave me just compensation and I do feel resentment WHEN I AM AROUND HIM. So, I make it a point to never be around him and this works for me. My point is that I have no resentment for either and I did not forgive either one.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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First, those quotes of mine should be inadmissible as they were the rantings of an unstable lunatic.
I have printed ml's post above for further review. Don't forgive. Hmmmm.
It takes a big person to not harbor the resentment and let compensation be enough. I've gotten s-loads of what I consider compensation. I'm a very small person.
Thanks all. You all are dead on correct in your assessments.
Life keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping into the fuuuu-ture.
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"It takes a big person to not harbor the resentment and let compensation be enough"
It has nothing to do with being a big person. It has to do with creating such a great present that your mind no longer goes to the past. Just compensation creates conditions that positively changes your emotional reactions.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It takes a big person to not harbor the resentment and let compensation be enough. I've gotten s-loads of what I consider compensation. I'm a very small person. I dunno, Mike...my thought is that any BS is perfectly within their rights to feel resentful. Sometimes nothing the FWS can possibly do is enough. That's not - and never will be - your fault. I have to admit I am saddened to hear the latest turn of events for you...I was pulling for you and your FWW. Your thought process seems so much like broken's, just hoping you guys would make it kind of gave me hope for my own miserable sitch. Peace to you and your family, Mike.
FWW
"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
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I don't understand the suggestion that saying "I forgive" somehow automatically erases an emotional reaction. That simply is not true. But it is true that creating happiness in the present helps erase the unhappiness of the past. When you are happy in the present the mind doesn't tend to go to the past.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Let me just quote a couple of things I've read from Dr. Harley on this subject: As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal. But forgiveness is still necessary even after compensation is made. That's because there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity. Even after compensation is made, there is still the need to forgive. But it's sure makes a lot more sense after the unfaithful spouse makes an effort to restore the relationship. From here: Can't we just forgive and forget?
Me (42)
Her (43) - feuillecouleur
DS(11)
DD(7)
Married: June 24, 2000
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