Agreed on both your points.

I think it behooves them both to get in this allotted amount of UA time otherwise FTF shouldn�t expect there to be SF and feuillecouleur shouldn't expect her attraction to him to increase. Dr Harley talks about aversions to SF so this is an area these two need to feel each other out on � use POJA.

I definitely don�t advocate that SF be taken off their list of ENs that need to be met during this time but more so find a way to lessen the aversion she has to SF which may be due to it being required after their dates. It�s quite possible she�ll be willing if she knows it�s not required. If she knows he knows it�s not a sure thing yet he�s still wanting to meet her needs during the date.

Of course all of this is slanted based on my experience with my W who very much hates being told what she�s �required� to do. Hence scheduling things is not a great option for us.

To quote Dr. Harley How to Overcome Sexual Aversion "In an effort to satisfy the spouse with the greater need for sex, the spouse with the lesser need often sacrifices his or her own emotional reactions. Instead of sex being an experience that they both enjoy together, sex becomes enjoyable only for the one with the greatest need. And it can become a nightmare for the other spouse. In all too many marriages, sacrifice leads to a sexual aversion, which, in turn, leads to no sex at all."

and "To avoid aversions in the first place, keep unpleasant experiences to a minimum. That's why I am so adamant about couples learning to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If they apply the policy to their sexual relationships, making love would never be unpleasant for either partner. Not only does it help them create a lifestyle of compatibility, but it also eliminates the possibility of any aversion to meeting each other's needs."

I don't think Dr Harley would recommend that FC have sex with her husband 3 times a week or whatever if she doesnt enthusiastically agree. I know that they had POJA'd this, but it is obvious that FC is sacrificing if she is "dread"ing it.

I'm looking forward to hearing Dr. Harley speak to you two on the radio, FC. I am sure it will be helpful for you guys, as well as for others (me )

I would say the BH can out-compete IF the WW is allowing LB deposits. If she's totally closed the LB, then even the best need meeting will be regarded as annoying, or too little too late, why didn't he do that before.

I do agree 100% about the fantasy of the affair and lack of opportunity to make LB$ withdrawals.

It does get a little annoying sometimes. Almost like "look at all the nice things I'm doing for you now where's my sex?"

That probably describes how I was to Prisca. When you are out of love with your husband, a request for sex is pretty much just annoying.

Are you being radically honest with him about ways in which the "nice things" he does for you are not so nice, and ways in which they could be nicer?

Are you guys working on a lifestyle change that will get you the 15 hours every week?

Originally Posted by MrAlias

Again this would be totally dependent on his ability to maintain his love for her.

So are you saying that without SF, he would not be able to maintain his love for me?

Originally Posted by markos

Are you being radically honest with him about ways in which the "nice things" he does for you are not so nice, and ways in which they could be nicer?

It seems to me that he has stopped doing those things we discussed during feedback because he feels they don't really add anything to my LB$.

I would say that that is getting it backward. The two of you in following the program will be establishing a positive feedback loop, where the actions of both of you make each of you feel better about meeting each other's emotional needs.

Originally Posted by markos

Are you guys working on a lifestyle change that will get you the 15 hours every week?

That's one of the things I would like to address with Dr. Harley on the radio show next week. It's hard to find things that include all 4 ENs. Usually we go out to eat, hoping to stimulate some IC. Then we go to a movie which satisfies the RC need. Both of these include affection. Then end the night with SF.

How are you doing (did you do) maintaining love for him when he is (was) not meeting your needs?

We all have our limits on how far we can go when our needs are not getting met. You have yours, he has his.

Seems he is willing to try to meet your needs. After all, he's "doing nice things" per your description.

The question is two-fold. Is he doing the right things? If yes, are you giving him credit? If no, are you willing to show him the way? (Assuming he's willing to learn.)

Are you doing or not doing something that would lead him to believe that?

What has he said about this?

Folks are pretty rational. When someone sees something is working, they tend to keep doing those things. When they don't witness fruits of their labors, they stop.

If you've told him that if he does certain things his needs will get met and he's done them only to not experience getting his needs met, pretty soon, he's not going to believe that doing those things you suggested are really going to get his needs met.

If he's doing what you suggested and his needs are not being met, then he has a legitimate complaint and little motivation to continue meeting your needs with no reciprocity experienced.

What if you changed the wording to make it from your viewpoint? Would you think of them as reasonable questions?

So are you saying that without ____, I would not be able to maintain my love for him?

It seems to me that I have stopped doing those things we discussed during feedback because I feel they don't really add anything to his LB$.

Being completely honest about your expectations and safely giving/receiving honest feedback are critical here. But before you can even get that, you guys must spend quality time with each other. I'd hazard a guess here that what time you do spend isn't quite up to par for one reason or another.

I honestly believe that if you two can get this UA time ramped up that a lot of these other issues will work themselves out. I really do. It just seems a bit like putting the cart before the horse.

Think back to BC (before children). Would you have been having these concerns and discussions about sex the first day or week that you met? Probably not, because that first step (getting to know each other and starting to enjoy each other's company) hadn't been completed.

First thing's first. Get this UA issue worked out.

I don�t know and unless he�s told you I suspect you don�t know either. It is one of those radically honest communications you need to have that lead you two to POJA.

�I really am not enthusiastic about ____. What do you think about doing ____ instead?� .

The beauty in POJA is the brainstorming. Keeping negotiation friendly and finding solutions that work for you both? Have you done any exercises to learn how to negotiate and keep it friendly and productive?

It was one of the first things Dr Chalmers had us do when we dipped into the POJA concept. She asked us to find something very basic, a very small conflict or unresolved solution and to work it out. Also of note she asked us to come back some weeks later and check-in to make sure it was still working for both parties.

Start with something small � like �Where should we go to dinner?�. Follow the guidelines of negotiation.
Make it pleasant.
Seek to understand the other one�s perspective.
Brainstorm. Come up with several options.
Vote.

I think a perfect idea for you two is to POJA ways you are going to spend more UA time together. Just be sure it is something you both enjoy doing and doing together. Grab the Recreational Enjoyment Inventory from the Questionaire link and see if that can get you started.

And, get creative.

For instance, in our small town (less than 100k people) this week, there is;

"Downtown Summer Nights," with FREE live music, and vendors for food and drink. You are TOTALLY allowed to pack your own food and drink down, though.

Friday Night Improv - a local comedy troop has regular shows... a whopping $5 at the door.

We could have done "Taco Tuesday" at the Local American Legion, but I need to call up my dad and see what's going on with my "Sons of the Legion" membership. They also have dances, and other regular events.

There is a a local "Senior Center" that hosts regular dances... "Boomer Dances" and "Swing Dancing." They bring in people to coach - it is low or no cost.

My wife and I have a blast bowling - one small alley has cold, cold drinks and snacks, and a jukebox. Another, on Friday and Saturday nights has "Thunder Bowling" where they turn off the lights, turn on black lights and a smoke machine and have music - that alley also has a full restaurant and bar. It's like $11 for 2 hours of all-you-can bowl.

It's summer time - there are "Movies in the Park" as well as "Music in the Park" on various nights... free, or requiring a food drive donation.


Really prioritize and drive home that enjoyable UA time and you will notice the difference, trust me. As a man, I can tell you that if we do not get enough UA time that I lose interest in SF as well.

Those are all really great ideas, HHH. We have quite a few of the same activities and have done a lot of them. They are pretty fun I guess. We bowl a lot as well. We go to the comedy club. I love music in the park but he doesn't. We could spend all day together doing whatever and I still wouldn't want to have sex with him

I would take that sentence right there and make it the theme of your call with Dr. Harley on Tuesday. (Or if only FTF is on the call, suggest that he make it the theme.)

Dr. Harley had a show a couple days back with a husband in a thirty year marriage where this seemed to be true for his wife. They had just spent a vacation on a tropical island and neither initiated sex. In their case, the husband had stopped talking about it, and most of the discussion seemed to be about how to get the two of them talking about the problem again (safely).

So what would put you in the mood?

If you can't describe what you need, how can he meet your needs?
If he has no hope of having his needs met by you, how can you expect he will stay on any path of meeting your needs. You expressed that he starts, then stops. Is it possible that he stops because he has learned that meeting your needs has not been a path to having his needs met?

We listened to that show and talked about it. I mentioned it in my email to Joyce. Dr. Harley suggested that she may not be aware of the stages of intimacy or either she was just not in love with her husband. I told Joyce that I identified with the later and that's what I wanted to talk about.

Yep, that's exactly where we are

It's not uncommon for women to simply not know and not be able to answer that.