Okay, my calendar is marked!

Markos, e-mail sent

Bump - we start tomorrow.

Thank you for the reminder and count me in. I now have it on my tablet.

This week we discuss chapter 1!

My first observation: the rollercoaster. Dr. Harley definitely got this right. From what I've heard on the show, I think he'd technically call this an "approach-avoidance conflict." From many standpoints, reconciliation with your spouse seems like a good idea: they are likely the mother/father of your children, they probably do a good job of meeting your emotional needs, and there is a good chance you still love them.

From a distance, reconciliation seems like a good idea, but when you get close, there seem to be problems: your spouse doesn't take steps to protect your marriage from an affair, your spouse is abusive, your spouse doesn't meet your emotional needs, your spouse engages in independent behavior (yet never seems to have time for you). These are the rough edges that have to be filed off in a successful recovery. These are the rough edges that have to be filed off in any successful marriage.

Otherwise ... up, down, up, down, up, down, and an occasional lurch sideways.

"You Can Do Better than Survive -- Your Marriage Can Thrive"
Heading on pg 11.

Dr. Harley's program is so much more than just getting through the affair alive. It is all about creating a marriage that is better than either of you could have imagined was possible.

What struck me first, was Dr. Harley contiually saying "The path that leads to recovery is very narrow", as a WW, I didn't realize HOW narrow it actually is, and because we (BS) have just stated its difficult at times to stay on the path, it's only just recently that we have BOTH realized, that in order for us to survive my A, get beyond it, and eliminate any future possibilities we MUST remain on the path.

I think it's interesting that he says that even if you think reconciliation is impossible or that only one of the spouses thinks it's worth trying, he encourages you to at least consider his plan, that is, read on. Don't let the impossibility, the strength of your emotions (I can never trust (BS), or I don't want to choose a dead marriage (WS)), stand in the way of at least considering what he has to advise.

This is a good point - I think a lot of people don't get this. They want to make compromises, they want to keep things they same, they want to go back how things were before. Some of these are glaringly wrong - WS wants to continue some form of contact with the affair partner is a very common example. And some are more subtle - we don't have enough time for the POUA is common, but everybody wants to justify it.

Like a diet, the plan only works when followed! And when we think we are smart enough to modify Dr. Harley's plan, it's worth considering - pretty much all of us are here because our best thinking ruined our marriage. Dr. Harley knows what works and has been studying and implementing it for decades.

Notice how the tricky Dr. H is using his own respectful persuasion techniques there: give it a shot, see if it works. He has stated elsewhere that when he can convince people to try his plan, they become Buyers.

My coach even told me on the phone it didn't matter if my wife was buying in at the moment or not as long as she was agreeing to follow the plan. I wanted to argue with that!

Yes, it is a very good example of respectful persuasion.

So, there's a difference between buy in and agreement to follow the plan? Is it the difference between feeling and doing? That is, is the pressure to buy in really pressure to feel a certain way?

Put it this way: every day, many people start affairs by spending time with someone making love bank deposits. They may have no intent to fall in love with each other. They may strongly desire to NOT have an affair. But, if two people do the right things together, they will fall in love, no matter what their intent is.

Works great in marriage! But it's a terrible tragedy outside of it.

The key is if two people do the right thing. Even Dr Harley alludes to this. He says if the WS is willing to go along with the plan. This is why breaking up the affair is key and why you will have little or no success if the wayward is still in contact.

Yes, one of the worst mistakes we see here is trying to ignore the affair and save the marriage, without doing anything to disrupt the affair. The love bank is closed; deposits are almost completely ineffective, because of the contrast effect.

Weapons have got to be brought to bear against the affair, to disrupt it, to hasten its end, so that the betrayed spouse can do something while they are still able.

My next observation: Dr. Harley's early failures. He states outright that when he started trying to counsel marriages facing affairs (I think his very first marriage counseling case was a pastor having an affair with a church choir director), the reason he failed was that he was not listening. In Defending Traditional Marriage, Dr. Harley mentions that he tried to address couples as Buyers. The problem was, the couples seeing him were seeing him because they did not think like Buyers. They thought like Renters or Freeloaders. And to reach them, he had to understand their situation from their point of view: the viewpoint of a Renter or a Freeloader.

Dr. Harley counseled his first couples to communicate, to be committed, to do the honorable thing, to do the logical thing, to do the best thing for their children - and it failed!

Eventually he realized he had to offer them something many marriage "experts" said was impossible: the promise of creating, restoring, and sustaining the feeling of romantic love for a lifetime.

I know that I personally always heard that this feeling fades, that it is immature, that mature people stay married for commitment and common vision, etc. And while Dr. Harley heard similarly, he knew a stellar counterexample: his own marriage. He and Joyce were married and still in love after several years. And studying couples that sustained love, he learned what works to do this and what doesn't. It turns out its all up to behavior: do the right things together, and you'll be in love.

And once you are in love, you won't want to leave the source of those feelings.

You might want to take a look at these articles, if you haven't:

Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Go...How Dr. Harley learned to Save Marriages

Something I have wondered for awhile Markos...

Why then, if that is true, Dr Harley advises men to Plan A for so long? If the WW is in an active A, and the BH is Plan A'ing for up to 2 years while she is in that A, how is that Plan A effective if the WW isn't even open for LB deposits?

Seems like a contradiction.

For one thing, the BH should be disrupting the affair. The goal is to hasten the death of the affair, so he can start making love bank deposits.

Also, from what I have heard, I would say it is not strictly true that the wife is completely closed to love bank deposits. The thing to look at is her behavior. If she will spend any time with her husband, or just talking to her husband, and if he can keep his conversation completely free of demands, disrespect, and anger, then he will be making love bank deposits. As the affair crumbles due to facing reality (read: opportunity for the OM to make love bank withdrawals), the husband's efforts to make deposits will be more effective.

I really recommend listening to Dr. Harley on the radio to get the broadest understanding possible of how it all fits together and what is best for each situation. Listen to how he advises husbands. It's eye-opening!

Something else to consider is the logic in a husband keeping his marriage: divorce is typically devastating to a man's welfare. There is frequently a good chance he will not get custody of his kids (though if you are reading this, guys, leave no stone unturned trying to keep them!), his finances will typically be devastated. In particular, his children's welfare may be severely compromised if he is out of the home. In a call from 2006 or 2007 in the archives, I have heard a situation where when a betrayed husband left the home, his children started getting into terrible trouble. The damage to their lives was so great, and they turned around so dramatically when they were with their father, that Dr. Harley and his staff were privately counseling this man through a Plan A extended far beyond normal, far beyond the bounds of safety for this man himself. He was on antidepressants and back at home and facing continued active infidelity from his wife, so that he could be there for his children, so that their lives would not be destroyed during these years.

Dr. Harley would never counsel a woman to do this.

I've also noticed how boldly the topic of emotion is brought up - the principles of the program seem to revolve a great deal around emotions - which is rare, the few therapists that we've seen focused more on the logistics rather then the feelings - in fact the first therapist RNR saw in a single session, advised him to divorce me.

That's one of the great things I think Dr. Harley gets: the connection between how to think logically about how to achieve certain emotions.

My question was answered on the show today so the revised book is on the way