Keep it light. Make it a request --
"I was thinking of going to lunch at Panera on Friday. Would you like to join me?"
"NO."
"Okay. By the way, [insert another topic of conversation here]"
Extend the invitation, and expect a NO for awhile. Don't pressure, just invite.

That sounds like a good tactic - though I know I will be stung when she refuses. I've been stung by so many things lately that by now I should be used to it I guess!

And these stings are where your current thoughts of �I won�t divorce her she�ll have to file.� Can create a conflict of what you will be instructed to do as part of Dr. Harley�s plan. You Plan A for a while (2 years for men). If after that time (or sooner if you can�t take more of the stinging) you should consider Plan B. Otherwise you�re bound to drive yourself to a place you DON�T WANT TO GO. You have needs and it�s important you recognize that. It�s hard to stay in a sacrificial mode for too long. You will soon become a person you don�t want to. It is almost inevitable.

We won�t try to talk you out of your religious beliefs regarding staying married. Just know this program has recommendations you do what you can to protect yourself. Living like roommates forever isn�t a way to do that and you may someday be asked to enter into Plan B.

The �tactic� described by Prisca is top notch. I�ve seen firsthand over the years where this type of light-hearted carefree attitude has made huge differences for those trying to entice back a partner. It reduces what feels like pressure for the withdrawn spouse. Be ready with your [insert another topic of convo] response. If she doesn�t want to talk with you simply smile, shrug and say. �Okay. Just thought I�d ask.� And then walk away. Find something to keep you busy and your mind off her response.

FYI � It works and it isn�t a tactic. It�s a great way to be. Imagine being able to live that way! How attractive that type of behavior can be. Moping, pouting will get you nowhere in the area of enticement. Hold that pattern of behavior. When the distraction of the roommate is gone you may just get a �yes�.

In the meantime � educate yourself. I have the following 3 books and each one is priceless.
His Needs Her Needs
LoveBusters
Fall in Love Stay in Love

I would suggest only going to Plan B after you have talked to Dr. Harley himself, though. He rarely suggests Plan B for men (especially where there has been no affair) but usually is able to find where the man has been lacking in following the program.

Did you see markos's suggestion to take antidepressants short term? They will help you with the stings, and keep you focused on what you need to be doing to reach your goal.

Agreed on letting the experts guide Pius.

However the man lacking isn�t always the deterrent to improvement. Sometimes it is just too hard to make this program work when you are going it alone. I, for one, was unsuccessful trying to implement this program alone and it wasn�t until I went semi-dark (totally withdrawn) from my spouse and thus she withdrew that we were able to get an enthusiastic agreement that we�d use the MB Coaching. Once we were both on board is where we both had a change of heart. It was the agreement to do things as a team that changed the dynamic. Where she was able to see how the program worked, what resentment A and B meant, etc. That was where things changed for us. I can�t honestly say I did a superb Plan A � but I tried to work it for nearly 10 years to no avail. I think in all that time I may have gotten a lot right.

I made the mistake of not consulting the coaches on my own. I went down my own path. Luckily it worked out in the end but there is no great guarantees it will for anyone else. I hope to help Pius avoid the horrible feeling one gets when entering the state of withdrawal. Seems he�s not there yet � but how long can he hold on to what he feels for her?

I think we are all saying very similar things or at least things that will prove helpful for him �

Continue to make improvements to yourself in an effort to entice your W back into Conflict. This includes educating yourself using the tools available (forum, books, listening to the radio program daily, submitting a question to Dr H on the radio, etc).

Get yourself some help trying to get your W on board which means contacting an MB Coach who can help guide you.

Yes - and that's the typical husband mistake, I think. I see men all the time saying "I'm going to Plan B" and they've only been here about two weeks, or "I'm working Plan A" and everything they say about their wife is disrespectful or demanding.

For that matter, that's how I sounded myself, not so long ago.


Excellent list of tools, and I suggest leaving no stone unturned around here!

Good advice from everyone. It is only very recently that I've been able to have a "carefree attitude", as one of the posters suggested. It has been less than a month since my wife was on the verge of filing for divorce. So I know I need to be patient at least for a little while. I'm going to hang in there for a while, hope things improve when the roommate leaves, and get some of those books!

Pius,

That is good to hear that you'll hang in there for a while.

It is our hope that you find the proper changes that make a difference for your W. Be carefree, respectful, pleasant and continue with your patience.

I hope you don't need to wait for the roommate to leave for things to improve. Put yourself out there as you were asked to. Ask her to spend time with you albeit more as a friendship at first. Let her get to know you all over again. Try asking her today.

Another way to bring her back into the loop is maybe through your children. Do you ever take them somewhere just to have fun? A swimming hole, a park or local event? You could plan some time with them and invite her to come along. Make it a huge fun day for the kids who�ll tell Mom all about it (should she turn down the invite). After all Family Commitment was one of her needs you were falling short on. Do these fun dates with them often and continue to invite her. Who knows � the kids may help you entice her into spending time as a family.

I've thought about that, but for reasons involving my job I decided it might not be such a good idea. A few months ago I was really feeling horribly and could've benefited a lot from them. Now, though it is still very hard for me and tears are still being shed, I think I'm to the point where I can do okay without them.

So far I have invited her to things I do with the kids - for example I took them bowling and asked if she wanted to come - but she has declined. Also when she does things with them like taking them tubing on the river she has never invited me. I hope eventually those things will change.

What does she do when you and the kids go out? Does she stay home with this roommate and her child?

Sometimes she is out with friends then.

Hi, Pius, I'm catching up a bit on your thread after being busy most of the day yesterday.

Did you get a chance to read about the friends and enemies of good conversation? This is going to be crucial information for you. The newest revision of His Needs Her Needs (2011 I think) is probably the best source for this. I would read and re-read those DAILY.

I'll let you in on a little secret of Dr. Harley's: when he counsels a couple, regardless of how they rank their needs on the emotional needs questionnaire, he concentrates most of his efforts on getting them to spend 15 hours alone every week meeting four specific needs: recreational companionship, conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment. He calls these the "intimate emotional needs." Technically they are all you need to be in love, although the other needs help function as "marriage insurance" (and can also be a great way to get a wife out of withdrawal).

Dr. Harley says that when a husband or wife does not rank some of the intimate emotional needs near the top, it is a sign to him that they are in withdrawal. So meet those other needs, but also focus on getting her involved in conversation and recreation.

Keep asking your wife out to dinner. Panera is a great idea! She will decline (and maybe even be disrespectful or abusive about it), and try to take that in stride: don't respond with anything she might find demanding, disrespectful, or angry. It is crucially important to eventually get her out of the house, alone with you without friends or children. According to Dr. Harley, couples are just more ENERGIZED when they get out, they make the kind of massive conversation love bank deposits you need. Here's a radio clip where Dr. Harley explains this:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03345

Also, look for more opportunities for you to initiate conversation. When you do this, your wife knows you are thinking about her, she feels valued, it makes love bank deposits. It also gives her an opportunity to make conversation with you, which will make even larger love bank deposits, which is the key to turning your situation around. Text her, email her, write notes, talk to her in person.

Please get in touch with Dr. Willard Harley on his radio show. He will talk with you for free and help you establish a direction. He may be able to give you some tips to get your wife on board:

mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

After talking to Dr. Harley, consider having a session with his son Steve Harley or daughter Dr. Jennifer Chalmers, who also may be able to help you get your wife on board.

Please also trust me on the antidepressants. Don't just ask the question "am I depressed?" or "can I cope?" The way ADs work is to help even out your emotional highs and lows so that you can think RATIONALLY. This is so crucially important because it helps you to see when you can make your situation BETTER by doing something that is the opposite of what your emotions would prompt you to do in the moment. They remove the impediment that is keeping your mind from focusing on SOLUTIONS to your problem.

So those are the big things I recommend you do:
* contact Dr. Willard Harley on his radio show
* see your doctor about antidepressants for the near-term
* focus on conversation, with a view towards getting some time alone out of the house, but also taking every opportunity to initiate

You leaving your wife Chick-Fil-A tea is a great idea. There's a good chance that is "affection" to her. Look for other acts of care like this that you can do. A withdrawn wife will typically not be open to the more "symbolic" acts of affection (like, say, flowers), if the more concrete acts of affection are not present. You might look at the list of affectionate acts Dr. Harley lists in his article on affection here on the site, and work those daily as well as creating a list of your own ideas.

Doing things as a family with the children is also an important way to make love bank deposits. Dr. Harley recommends scheduling 15 hours a week to meet the need for Family Commitment. Schedule that many! It may pave the way for scheduling that many hours as a couple for undivided attention time to meet intimate emotional needs, later.

Markos - lots of good thoughts there. I read the "friends of good conversation" article but I need to re-read it on a daily basis. That is one area I struggle in. It is still difficult because I can tell by the shortness of my wife's answers when I try to talk to her that she is not too interested in talking yet. So therefore I need to tread lightly in this area. Instead of having long conversations I'm trying to have more frequent short ones, being prepared to end the conversation if it appears she is uncomfortable.

In my "first attempt" with her at working things out, we went out on a date night every week, but it almost always ended badly because I would tend to fill the awkward silences we had with relationship talk, which she hated. I so wish I had just been content to stay in silence then instead of the relationship chat. I do think at this point even if she did agree to go out somewhere with me there might be a lot of awkward silences. There are a lot of topics I'm afraid to touch because they tangentially involve our relationship. It is hard even to talk about the future with her, because we don't know if we will be divorced, reconciled, or separated-but-living-together as we are now. So basically I'm going to wait until the right time to ask her out somewhere - I'll have to go with my gut on that one.

As far as having "UA" time, I know we are not ready for much of that yet. She is still not comfortable being with me. It has only been a week maybe since she has stopped fleeing whenever I enter the room. That's where we're at now. I'm gradually engaging with her in shorter conversations so that she gets more comfortable being around me. It is a very difficult situation but I'm hanging in there the best I can.

BTW, I would look into the faint possibility that the female friend may be more than a friend. We have had couples on this site where one spouse has fallen into a same-sex affair. Dr. Harley's principles work to break those up, as well (in fact, they tend to break up more quickly - they are less stable), if that is the case.

And since the friend does seem to be a problem for your relationship (it's a real problem for her to be sharing a room with the friend and spending the night apart from you, for example), I would make a polite complaint about it. Do not say anything judgmental or critical about her decision, but gently let her know that you would not be happy staying this way or doing it again. Something like:
"It bothers me that you are spending the night away from me with your friend. I haven't liked this arrangement, and I don't want to do it again. It would mean a lot to me if you would move back to our room now, even before she leaves."

She may get mad and abuse you in response, i.e., she may answer with demands, disrespect, or anger. If so, be sure that YOU don't respond with any demands, disrespect, or anger of your own. Just say "okay," and try to move on to another conversation topic or withdraw. The important thing is to communicate the INFORMATION, and to stick to how the situation affects YOU, without making value judgments about it being right or wrong or what she should do. She will think about the information on her own, later, as long as there is not a fight.

And keep it short, and sweet, so you don't say too much and end up saying something that she finds disrespectful. "in many words shall be found folly" (http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/5-3.htm) Superlatives and over the top expressions of your emotion and hyperbole will be seen as disrespectful. For example, don't use the word "substitute spouse." That would definitely be disrespectful.

By the way, here is my favorite Marriage Builders Radio show of all time, a very encouraging call with "Steve." Dr. Harley explains to him how to win his wife over and how her enthusiasm and emotions will change when he does:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03272
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03273
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03274

You are doing exactly the right thing, my friend.


Get a recreational activity that can help fill the silences. Something you both enjoy. Dr. Harley explains in the 2011 His Needs, Her Needs that for dating couples, the recreational activity becomes a "pretense" for conversation.

Find some common enjoyable interests to talk about. See a movie together if you have to so that you can TALK about it.


That is progress!

I will be praying for you, too, my friend.

I missed this - yes, definitely include this. Especially if you guys EVER fight. Fighting in marriage is like detonating a nuclear bomb. NOONE wins. It's simply mutually assured destruction.