Hey you all. I haven't posted for a while but I just had an additional question about my situation. My original thread is here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2712004&page=1

Since I originally posted various things have happened but the long and short of it is that my wife is currently in the state of Withdrawal. She won't talk to me much and is sleeping in a separate bedroom etc. and has rebuffed efforts to restore the marriage. Basically I'm wondering what is the general strategy for getting a spouse out of the withdrawal state, when the spouse is not allowing you to meet her emotional needs and such. How do you reach such a person, and how long can it be expected to take on average to coax such a spouse out of the withdrawal state? Thanks!

Note that I have read Dr. Harley's article on Withdrawal here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3615_state.html

However he is pretty vague about how to get out of it. On the one hand he says that in withdrawal the spouse won't let you meet her needs, but then says in the following article that you may be able to get a spouse out of it by extending an olive branch. So far I've extended a lot of "olive branches" but still no luck. I'm wondering if I just need to be patient or perhaps change tactics.

Were you able to confirm she wasn't in contact with another person? The dude she kissed in the Dominican?

We can't help you coax your W out of withdrawal. That is obvious.

Did you two ever receive any form of counseling?
What is the current situation regarding maintaining the M?
Is she willing to keep the status quo?
Did you ever contact one of the MB Coaches, with or without your spouse?

Here�s my opinion. You�ve been floundering for some time in a loveless marriage. It�s time to do something. Time to shake the foundation. This will require some hard choices on your part. If you�re truly wanting to move things forward you can do one of two things: Get a hold of an MB resource to help you make attempts to get your W on board with the program that will move you in a more positive action based direction � or leave the M. Seriously. Those are your choices.

Whatever attempts you are making now are failing because your W has shut you out. No amount of us trying to help you convince her (nor no attempts by you to convince her) to join MB is going to work. FYI her willing to stay in a loveless M where the partner is asking for change is still a HUGE RED FLAG. I�m more apt to believe she�s getting her needs met elsewhere while you continue to be her financial support.

Are you willing to call Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers by yourself to see if they can help move things forward?

To the best of my ability I've been able to rule out an affair. My parents and others have talked to us about staying together for the kids and living as roommates, which is the mode that we're in now. Her parents also applied a lot of pressure to her against getting a divorce. About a month ago after a fight we had she was ready to talk to me about divorce anyway, but for whatever reason she backed off. With our situation having five kids and her not having a job, logistically divorce would be very difficult on both of us as well. For example, it would be hard to stay in the house and hard for either of us alone to afford a house that would work for five kids.

Due to my own beliefs there is no way I'm leaving the marriage. If it ends it will be because she has filed. Otherwise I'm going to keep adjusting tactics and trying and being patient and fighting for the marriage until it either kills me or she divorces me :-)

In my first attempt at saving things I was so emotionally distraught that I was behaving a bit erratically and putting demands on her and such and I believe that is one reason why it wasn't successful. Now I think I'm finally able to approach things more steadily, but one thing I've learned is that she hates talking about the relationship. So I've avoided that like the plague. We only talk about household matters now. However unfortunately this means I'm loathe to ask her if she's willing to try things again or talk to a counselor such as Dr. Harley or anything like that.

I am willing to call Dr. Harley by myself and perhaps that is something I should try.

First of all, it is mandatory that you continue to check up on her for a possible affair, and disrupt it if there is one.

Second - the general strategy is lots and lots of conversation. LOTS of conversation. Read and reread the friends and enemies of good conversation daily, and practice them daily. Track yourself, on paper, over time, to make sure you are including all of the friends and none of the enemies.

The friends and enemies of good conversation are online here, but there is a better version in the most recent edition of His Needs, Her Needs:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html


A long time. The good news is that withdrawal is not permanent - it is lonely, and IF your wife is not getting her needs met elsewhere, she will eventually come out into the state of Conflict. She will be fighting, so you will need to make sure that you do not respond to her demands, disrespect, and anger with demands, disrespect, or anger of your own. If you love bust her AT ALL, if you do anything that she believes is demanding, disrespectful, or angry, then she will go back into Withdrawal like a poked snail pulling back into its shell. And like a snail she will stay in the shell longer next time.

Don't poke the snail!

I recommend the following:
* Contact Dr. Harley on his radio show and go on the show to talk to him about it.
* This is going to take a long time and feel discouraging to you - see your doctor and ask him to prescribe antidepressants for you for the short term, to help keep your emotions even. It will make it easier for you to keep priming the pump without reciprocation for awhile. It worked for me, and I still have a bottle around here in case we ever go there again. I delayed on this for years - just go do it.
* Listen to Dr. Harley on the radio show EVERY SINGLE DAY. You need a LOT of education to help you use logic to override your emotional instincts. And you need a lot of motivation and encouragement. Dr. Harley will provide both. Subscribe to the archives and listen to the old shows, too.

Yeah, tell me about it! Listen to the radio show to fill in the gaps.


Ask her to join you for a fun activity, without friends or children, outside of the house.

Ask again next week.

Five kids - wonderful! Prisca and I have six.


Go see your doctor about antidepressants for awhile. Trust me!


Yes, you probably love busted her to death!


You don't really need relationship talk to recover. What you need is 15 hours of good conversation a week, enjoyable conversation, not conversation about conflicts. Start learning to construct this.

The best advice we can offer you is to get her out of the house alone with you, because that is where the fun conversations will automatically happen.

So, which Pius are you? X? XII? Or one of the others?

Pius - five children - religious beliefs against divorce - Catholic?

Markos - wow thanks for the responses and the good advice. Yes, I am Catholic though my wife is not!

Interesting that you mention conversation. My current strategy is as follows:

1.) Stay involved with the kids. This was one of her chief complaints against me back when we talked about such things - I wasn't involved enough with them.

2.) Do chores around the house. This was another one of her complaints early on - that I didn't help out at home.

3.) Gradually increase conversation. This is difficult because she does not want to converse much. She usually answers most of my questions with as few words as possible and doesn't ask me anything or show any interest in much I talk about.

4.) Look for ways to show small acts of kindness. For example her favorite drink is Chick Fila iced tea, so I've made sure that there is always a gallon of it in the fridge.

At this point I'm pretty sure that if I asked her to do anything alone with me, she would refuse. So I'm afraid to ask. I really don't want to do anything that could be construed as putting any pressure on her. However I do think if I'm able to increase conversation a bit more with her then at some point I will ask her to go out with me to get a quick bite at Panera, which she is a restaurant that she likes.

As you say, it is very hard for me not to get discouraged because things are moving so slowly. There have been a few small signs of hope. We currently have one of her friends living with us (female) and they are sharing rooms. However she told one of my daughters that when the friend leaves in a month she will move back into the master bedroom with me so that way my daughter can have that room as her bedroom. Not sure if I believe it or if it is too good to be true.

Oh, didn't mention the biggest part of my current strategy - prayer and a lot of it :-)

This female friend of hers currently living with us is also a reason why we're having problems, I believe. I think she has been acting like a "substitute spouse" in many ways, offering my wife assistance around the home and conversation and such. So I'm hoping that when she finally leaves we will be able to move forward faster.

Dr. Harley rarely advises a man to leave the marriage due to neglect, especially a man with children.

Very good idea.

Which books do you have? Lovebusters? His Needs, Her Needs?

When will she be leaving?

I would continue down the path of Plan A. Which means you need to become an expert on avoiding LoveBusters. Markos has a lot of helpful tips on how to avoid them, what you need to watch for in yourself, etc. So pay special attention to things he mentions in his posts � both in your thread and others.

You mentioned LoveBusters she�s mentioned and you�ve changed your behaviors. That�s good. Keep searching for more LBs you may have forgotten.

As far as what you are doing to add lovebank deposits. Do you know what her ENs are? Doing small acts of kindness like the ice drink are good things to do but may not be enough to make a difference. Don�t stop doing those things but find more to add especially if you know it is what she needs from a partner.

Is admiration an important EN? Just because she doesn�t want to talk to you doesn�t mean you can�t fill your time with her being complimentary. I suspect you are doing that but it can�t hurt to step it up a bit.

You are fortunate in that she is still in the home and isn�t talking divorce. You are unfortunate in that you may have competition with this roommate. Unless she is a friend of the M she really doesn�t belong there.

You should ask anyway. Ask, knowing that she will likely refuse for awhile. You have a very good chance of winning her, as long as no other man is in the picture.

The rest of your strategy looks good. Family commitment is big for most mothers. Chores around the house can actually be considered affectionate acts -- they are for me! Small acts of kindness are also affectionate acts. Conversation is good, too, however much she will let you have. Keep these up, with NO lovebusters, and she will eventually come out of withdrawal and into the state of conflict.

Very good point. Some Lovebusters, like Disrespectful Judgements, are HARD to see in ourselves. But they are very common mistakes. Listen carefully to any complaints she makes.

The friend/roommate will hopefully be leaving in a month. I say hopefully because the situation there is a little complicated too. She herself is divorced and was trying to move to another state to be with her mom but the family court wouldn't let her. Recently an appellate court overruled the family court and she will hopefully be able to leave after a final custody hearing in August.

I have tried to be complimentary but, as you say, I could probably afford to step it up a notch. I always make sure to thank my wife whenever she does anything for me.

I hope you are right. I'm a little afraid to ask simply because last time around I think my wife thought I was pressuring her and pushing her way too much so I really hate to do anything that she might view as applying pressure. She had complained also that I wasn't giving her space, so now I try not to follow her around and I mostly don't talk to her unless she is in the "common areas" of the house.

I'm trying to avoid love busters, though part of the problem is that if I do something that annoys my wife, she is likely to just stew on it and not let me know that it is a problem.

I have the His Needs, Her Needs book, though I haven't read it for a while. From what I've been able to discern, domestic support and family commitment rank highly for my wife which is why I've tried to address those areas.

I suggest you get Lovebusters, as well, and read up on Demands and Disrespectful Judgements.