Please write Dr. Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

You're stuck in a hole and none of us seem to be able help you out. Give Dr. Harley a chance. What have you got to lose? It's free and takes relatively little effort and time.

All,

Anyhow, I have a few people I have tracked down and can contact.

OM himself I think I have an email for but unconfirmed and there seems to be a gmail and yahoo address with the same handle. I do have the email for the president of the club OM is in.

1)OMW facebook.
2)OM and my coworker1 phone number, and his wife facebook.
3)OM and my coworker2 facebook, but single.
4)OM and my coworker3 facebook, status unknown, might be OM2.2.

I guess I can make friendly contact with them and hope they give me some info.

Or I could pose as someone else, my W or some other member of the opposite gender.

Any other ideas?

God Bless
Gamma

That doesn't sound like being in love to me.

I agree with Markos that she doesn't sound like she's in love with you, and the only idea I can think of that might truly benefit you is to write to and talk to Dr. Harley.

Yeah, stop trying to dredge up ancient history and start focusing on the state of your marriage today.

With your obsessions about the past, I can all but guarantee you that your wife isn't nearly as in love with you as you believe her to be. You commit far too many LB's (like taking her to see the OM or repeatedly asking her for oral sex several times a year even after she's made it clear to you that she isn't comfortable with it) for her to be in love.

Those are my ideas.

I have no reason to believe you're going to listen to them though.

I still don't understand what you want to find out from these people. I asked you before what you wanted to know from this pre-marriage OM, but I didn't understand your answer.

Are you hoping to ask these people whether this man had oral sex with your wife?

Gamma is not the first or only BH to want what the OM got in the SF department. Specially when he never ever got it from his WW.

**EDIT**

Gamma does not want the truth to know what happened. Once all the questions have been answered the affair can be left in the past and forgotten is the goal for knowing the truth.

Gamma wants the truth to tell his WW gotcha. You did all that in your affairs I want the same for me.

Playing gotcha gamma is not how to recover.

I can not remember a post with so many MBer's saying contact Dr Harley as much as this thread.

Gamma there is a message in the prior sentence. I point that out because you do not seem to hear what people are telling you here.

Taking 1 for the team does not make a good relationship and violates POJA, the basis of a good and successful marriage.

This is not consistent with Dr H's advice and is dangerous for the marriage. A BH pressuring a FWW until she gives in and gives him that act that she does not want to do in her marriage is punishment, which plays no part in recovery. Also, in forcing a wife to do what she finds distasteful (pardon the pun) is setting her up for a sexual aversion, which is the last thing a BH (or any H) needs in his marriage.

Road, do you honestly believe that if you were to tell your wife "do XXX" for me because you did it for him", and she hated doing it but did it, that you would feel good? Really, would that make you feel happier?

There are many things that many of us want after the discovery of the affair, that are bad for the marriage and recovery. We would not be "the first or the only" BSs to want a revenge affair, or to hit and scream at the WS on a daily basis, or to use resentment as a punishment in order to get whatever we wanted thereafter. We could decide that we are entitled to spend money like water, to spend nights out and not tell our spouses what we're up to, and to put them through hell, but that attitude is not the way to recover a marriage.

Selfish demands are the way to ruin recovery, not to progress it. Asking and then insisting that a FWW do a sex act for you because she did it for him is a particularly nasty selfish demand. You and Gamma are not going to get the marriage you want by doing that.

Still following this thread with interest...

I would like some things that OW got that I did not get...

I'd like my H to take me out for a glass of wine.

I'd like him to call me on the phone to chat.

And a few others.

But, he's not enthusiastic, and I can't bring it up, because it's "talking about the past" and "making selfish demands."

So, I walk through town, watching other women get what I want, as a matter of course.

Things I will probably never get, because of the OW.

For many of us, I think, there IS an element of sacrifice to staying with a spouse after an affair.

For some things, to borrow from Porsche, there is no substitute.

Continuing to read with interest -

BV

I still think it's important to note that Gamma didn't choose to stay with his wife after an affair, not with this OM at least. He chose to make her his wife AFTER she already cheated on him.

Now, he's making this past relationship his wife had, BEFORE they even married, an issue again. I'm not sure why he's doing this, but some people seem to think it's because he wants his wife to give him OS, like she maybe did for the OM before Gamma married her.

BV, this is very different from your situation.

Have you tried approaching this not from the viewpoint of "I want you to give me what you gave the OW..." but rather, "Here is a list of my EN's and this is how I would like you to meet them"? Is your WH onboard with MB? Have you established the fact that he is no longer in contact with the OW? Do you consider your marriage to be in Recovery?

Here's the difference between a flourishing marriage and a stagnant one, not out of recovery:

I'd like you to take me out for a glass of wine, because you did that with your affair partner.

I'd like you to call me on the phone to chat, because you did that when wooing OW.

Not expressing your feelings to FWH on any topic that relates in any way something associated with his affair is the worst kind of sacrifice. Either you can't broach the subjects because of your resentment of his actions with OW (which we can counsel you through) or you are afraid of his reaction, which is actually an (unspoken) DJ. ("Mentioning wine will inevitably make him think I'm referencing his affair.")

Timidity is NOT MB. Stay grounded in the basic tenets, but move on them. If you want to enjoy a glass of wine, ask him out for one. If chatting on the phone for a few moments mid-day would be pleasant, place the call, or POJA on a daily appointment for him to call you.

No.

I resent the time I now have to spend being vigilant, and second-guessing whether I'm being sufficiently vigilant.

I resent the fact that I will never have information about the As I want to know (one affair was revealed after over two decades, the other, after four years and my H has forgotten answers to my questions).

Additionally, I have not been able to make Just Compensation work for me.

I feel my situation parallels Gamma's in some important ways.

BV

YES. EXACTLY. A "reclaim the memories" kind of thing. (You may recall my previous post on this thread emphasizing the subordinating conjunction BECAUSE).


Been there, done that. He DOESN'T WANT TO, just as Mrs. Gamma does not want to engage in OS.

H does not want to drink/talk with me because HE DOESN'T ENJOY DOING THOSE THINGS WITH ME. He enjoyed them with the OW because she had (has? - I'm assuming she's still living) qualities I do not have.

Just as Mrs. Gamma, perhaps, enjoyed OS with another man (men?) because the OP, due many variables, made it enjoyable.


My H would like to substitute other activities. Just as Mrs. Gamma, perhaps, would be willing to substitute other SF activities for OS.

However, for me (and Gamma?), because of the BECAUSE, there is no substitute.

As I said in my reply to writer1, I have not been able to make JC work for me.

Does resentment block a BS from being able to accept JC, or does a WS's inability to provide JC (assuming what constitutes JC is individual*) create/continue resentment?

Gamma, please forgive me if I am misinterpreting your situation.

BV

P.S. *Not having another affair and meeting my needs in a way that is pleasing to him (i.e., he gets what he wants (doesn't have to do things he doesn't want to do; I DON'T get what I want (don't get to do the things I want to do, but instead get "substitutes") does not feel like JC to me.

Which, if I have been interpreting this thread correctly, is where Gamma is at.

Hopefully not a threadjack -

BV

If you demand your spouse sacrifice instead of negotiating with your spouse so that both of you can be happy, then no, JC will not happen.

JC is not punishment and doesn't require sacrifice.

You might consider emailing Dr. Harley yourself, BV.

Broken vase, I would be interested to hear the answer to your question above as well if you would be willing to email it to Dr Harley.

I am not for forcing the WW to do something distasteful.

When a WW does something she would not do for her BH. Though did it willingly for the OM. That sends a message that says WW actions are speaking louder then her words. That the WW for whatever reason put has put the OM as number one and BH in second place.

The WW made the OM feel special, at least in the BH's eyes. How else is the BH to feel when she gave the OM willingly and freely yet outright refuses to do the same for her BH?

How does the WW justify doing less for her BH?

Have you broached the polygraph test? No BS will rest with their questions about the affair unanswered.

Giving this message repeatedly to your (or Gamma's) FWW when she has said she does not want to do whatever it is, is attempting to force her to do what you want. You are not physically making her do it, but you are putting pressure on her to do it. Dr Harley advises very strongly against putting pressure on your spouse, and against putting pressure on women to perform sexual acts that they dislike.

My point was to try and make you see that if you (or Gamma) succeed in making her do it, you probably won't feel good about it and she DEFINITELY won't feel good about it, and this will harm your marriage.

You will get your short-term victory if you pressurise her until she gives in, but the victory will be a pyrrhic one.