You're right Mr. E! I am trying to finish SAA before noon today and I literally just read the part with Sue and Jon both thinking the other is the wrong one and waiting for each other to do the work.

MB is amazing at how accurate it is!

I will use it to our advantage.

Do I tell him my EPS that are required to keep me in the marriage today?

Do I once again offer him my willingness to R?

All this with no AOs from me definitely. I know Dr. H talks about demands, and in this area the EPs are non negotiable.

Will I continue Plan A today?

Thank you!

You are going to have to lead the charge on learning how to have Safe Conversations together, by example. Sharing with him how what he says and does makes you feel puts the ownership of what was done back on him. Try not to sling mud back at him. Just say how it makes you feel when he does " ......"

It sounds like he is in Conflict. If you read up on this, you will see he has gone from Withdraw to Conflict. Actually, this is a good thing. Have you read up on the 3 stages? Right now your LB's are being tested in a big way. They are going to be for a long time. Can you keep them in check? Dr. Harley talks about how to communicate with people in Conflict.


There is nothing wrong with sharing with him that you have seen glimpses of some happiness between you two but both in the last week but some of the things he is saying to you is very hurtful. Don't get sucked into heavy conversations with him. It's ok to let him know that you understand that you are still married and while you are stilled married, you respect your marriage vows. It's okay to let him know that you would really appreciate him trying to be more considerate of your feelings right now.

Things actually look like they are moving very quickly for you two.

This has gone from bad to horrible.

I am contemplating giving up for good. I just don't want to hurt anymore.

We met up and I asked him about last night and he said it was nothing. He just wanted a picture.

I asked him what he wanted from me, what did he expect from us and me.

He said nothing. You have not anything wrong. I'm the bad one. I'm only good at working.

I asked about the affair he said "I am not going to tell you anymore, you will just end up hurt."

I said "It's not the affair that hurts it is the fact that you were able to create a second life and live with it."

This made my heart break horribly and I do not know how I did not cry. "It was not just a second life, there were 3rd 4th even 5th lives."

He said "Look Jo, I did not leave you for anybody. I love you so much that my guilt is finally getting to me. I can't face you anymore. You still want me back after what I've done."

I said "H, I ONLY want you back if you want to be back. I will move forward in live. I will change and become a better person. I will survive this." He said he knows I will, he knows I am a strong person.

WH said "I left because I couldn't live with you anymore, and I thought it would make you hate me but you dont, even now that I am saying there is more. A lot more. So much that you will never talk to me again. You don't know me, nobody does. I don't know myself. I do things in the moment and I don't regret them then. We will NEVER be the same, I will never be the same"

I said "H, I know you won't and I know I won't. We can be better, but you have to want to change and want our marriage to work. It takes 2"

He said "I see no point, you are just going to get heart broken again. I don't think I can change that is just who I am. I do things in the moment and live, that's it."

I grabbed his face and caressed it and said "It breaks my heart that you want to be this person, when I know you can change and be a better person. But you choose your path, I can't make you change, I can't make you want me, I can't do anything but myself and love you."

He said "I am not ready to tell you everything but I am going to, because I need to let it all go. I'm not ready today though."

A single tear left my eye as I was leaving and I pointed at his heart and said "It hurts because I am not in there, but in my heart it has always been you. You choose this way."

He said "It is just you there Jo, nobody else, but I can't live like this. I am a horrible person. I hurt you behind your back and you don't even know about the pain you will feel when I tell you everything"

I gave him a long kiss and said "You know where I stand. I love you."

He said "I love you too, always have always will."

I left and took DS5 to grandma. I threw up bile. I am dying inside. My stomach feels horrible. My heart is breaking and dying as I type. Do I want to know everything? Will I want him back?

He said he feels pressured from me to get back together because I am not mad or hating him. I am being to happy.

What do I do? I feel like dying and the tears won't stop....

FOGBABBLE! You were doi g well with your Plan A and you forgot the most important element even though you were reminded. NO EXPECTATIONS! You expected a miraculous recovery and its not going as you plan. Second mistake is bringing up the affair! His word is lower than rat feces now and his history has shown it repeatedly. Yet you expected him to be honest when you brought up the affair. He's lying there is still contact and you know it. Bringing up stuff you already know doesn't help your Plan A. Trust but verify and document.

Now I'll let you know a secret he's cake eating big time. Your feeling some needs that his POSOW isn't. However, it seems your health is being impacted by an excessive Plan A. I heard on numerous occasions Plan A should only be 3 weeks for women because of health issues. You should start preparations for a Plan B for this very reason. Did you expose to your DS yet?! Keep in mind he's going to be furious when you do. Don't apologize for it or fall for the bait of an argument. Don't let this diminish your self worth.

Bringing up the affair and your love busting argument depeleted whatever deposits you made. WH knew you would inquire about it and wanted you to take the bait and you did. Don't let this change your plan just modify it. Remember you have a plan he doesn't, no wayward ever does that's why the relationshits they get into always fail. You got this and stay strong. Are you involved in a church? I recommend that and working out, or running to combat the stress your under.

Edit: I'm not a vet but I am going through the same thing. My WW and your WH as with all waywards follow a script you seen it and read it. You know what to do but sometimes some affirmation makes action.

Okay, let's start off with what you did that was amazingly right!

You did not have an AO.
You reaffirmed (though mildly) the possibility of a future together.
You did not have an AO.
You let him start to give you some of the stories on which you can expect completions.
You did not have an AO.
You told him you still love him.
You did not have an AO.
You learned that your Plan A ("...being too happy...") is actually getting through to him.
You did not have an AO.

Do you still feel as bad as you did when you wrote your note? Have you considered/acquired some mild ADs? In any event, you can anticipate some more shocks. Endure them, please. And as brutal as this sounds for your own well-being, rejoice in the fact that he's obviously torn up inside about his actions, and the possibility exists that he will realize his only emotional analgesic is through you. If you can envision a reconciliation at the end, it will be necessary for him to participate. A haughty, self-entitled WH renders that impossible.

We have seen it all here, either from WHs or WWs: prostitutes, incest, sex with minors, same-sex confessions, multipartner episodes, illegitimate children, etc, etc. It would be hard to shock us here. Whichever horror stories you get, steel yourself to behave as you did earlier. Listen, accept, do not negatively react.

TD, I really don't know. I am hurting so badly right now and I have nobody to talk to. My family is all gone out of town and DS is with paternal grandma.

You are right about the expectations. I wanted him to apologize for last night, I wanted him to say he was jealous for the first time in our relationship. I wanted him to say he was ready.

I am so stupid!

I fear he is a sociopath. The more I read about it the more it describes him. I'm scared for myself and my son, he is able to lie to us and trick us and lead us on his adventures for YEARS!!!

He wants to reveal all the other affairs, do I let him? But says I am just hurting myself. He says he loves me but how is love possible when you are betraying.

You have a point TD, he kept saying how he wants to talk to me and text me because he sees I'm happy, but now he says that I am being hurt so maybe we should not. I know OW is not filling SF because he is contacting me everyday regarding SF.

I just cried non stop and feel a little better.

I will modify Plan A, and hit it hard for the next few weeks and not let anything that has been said today be brought up again and Plan B will be on 8/26/2013.

I start school 8/26 full time and I am doing my teaching hours also, so i will be more than busy for the next few months and do not want the stress of this to go along with it. My mind will be busy and maybe that will be enough to get me out of this alive.

I will begin a workout plan and try and keep my mind busy from everything I learned today.

I will type up Plan B letter and upload it tomorrow. I don't see myself going strongly for much longer now that I know there is a lot more he has not said, it is running in my head nonstop.

That, you are most certainly, not. You are a betrayed spouse, and these desires are common to BSs.He is a wayward, and is saying things that are common to waywards.

I do feel better, my sister ended up coming home early from another city and came straight here without knowing anything, I cried and she listened and she thinks y'all are amazing with your advice because she recommends him dead and buried.

I am trying to get some ADs but have no insurance. Plus WH job loss left me with only our savings. Very minimal. He does not touch it.

Is is normal for him to not want to tell me cause he does not want to "hurt me"? Is it okay he wants to reveal everything? What if he is just doing it to get is off his chest and move on?

My sister is taking me shopping so I will be back later.

Please keep the advice coming I really need it tonight.

Thank you!

Don't dig to deep into that.

A few things appear otherwise; he states concern for a lack of guilt for his actions, and then also states guilt for the effect the actions have on you.


His babbling right now is because now he has to face reconciling his actions and his beliefs about himself. This is typical of waywards.

"I didn't ever think I was a bad person, so how could I do these horrible things? Oh, god! I must be a terrible person!"

I did not see or feel he was torn up about anything, I felt he was just saying it for his own benefit. IDK, after everything so far I do not think he is a remorseful person. I don't think he is sorry. I don't think he is a good person anymore...

I still feel he wants me to hate him and wants me to go into ,unknown to him, Plan B. That way he does not have to deal with me anymore...

I know I am wallowing in a pity party now but I feel like crap...

No he actually said he does not regret the past because at the moment he wanted to do it, so it's impossible to regret things.

I said "H, I regret a lot of my past and I am glad people forgave me and gave me chances"

He said "That's you. Not me"

I HATE HIM. I WISH HIM MY HEARTBREAK times 1000000!

He doesn't want to tell you cause it would hurt him more than you. It's fogbabble I know it hurts but its the same trash waywards spout time and time again.

TD, how do you have so much more faith and hope than I do? I mean obviously you have experience. But I admire your strength, especially when I have none. Thank you for giving me some mental rest, WH is not special and is like all typical WS. Right? Lol

Again, he states in one sentence "I've done horrible things and I don't regret them" he is either contemplating that something is "wrong" with him, or he is attempting to convince himself of this.


This preceding statement flies in the face of this.


You are dealing with an addict who is just now facing the fact that they are an addict.

A drunk who just realized just how much and how often they drink.

You two are both very young, and this is workable... but he needs to quit navel-gazing and accept responsibility; the lifestyle you two have led has been wide open to his constant philandering.


Besides, I just can't see how he can view his navel with his head so firmly planted in his 24-year-old backside...

He is the typical ww. And hope and strength comes from time and doing things that makes yourself feel better about your self. I go to the gym 4 days out of the week not to make myself look better thats more of a by product. I do it to get out of the house and it really helps the depression go away.

Thank you HHH, I know to me it seems so much worse as this is my first time ever really trying to deal with this.

All the other times we fought he left for a few days and then we were okay. I resented him etc.

I truly hope for his own sake he realizes his mistakes. I recognize mine, but I fear him choosing to continue his dirty life.

Yesterday was my first time EVER dealing with him even remotely jealous or asking where I wad etc. He NEVER called during the day and maybe a few texts throughout the day. IDK how to deal with him. Last week he wanted me out and about and meeting new people. This one time I actually go out he went crazy and kept repeating how I was having fun and with who. Wtf is wrong with WSs?

Today I brought up the threat he made about talking to other people, and said he was to never threaten me again.

Tomorrow is a new day. Im going back to Plan A and will be on my best behavior regardless of what he says. If he decides to argue I will turn my phone off or leave. I will not be bated. I will show him I will stand on my own.

I think I cannot do SF, it is one of his high needs but I dont think I can do it again.

No more expectations at all! Just give give give. I need to remember that... just a few more weeks.

Have you ever read the gaslighting definition thread?! Wish I knew how to post stuff lol. I don't know where you strength comes from or mine but I believe our children have a lot to do with it. I read stats on divorced kids and its not pretty. Also, knowing this even though it sounds prideful and pompous I know I'm right point blank. I have the knowledge that I never went against my vow and that means a lot to me. I have been faithful and honest with my WW doing my whole marriage. Reading the things on this sight and looking back, I see I was practicing MOST of the EPs that were suggested on the site.

I also run, the runners high you get is similar to the rush of SF and it makes you look good to boot. It's a process and I'm still going through it as is some the folks posting on your thread. Just remember your not alone.

Thank you Chit, I really need to start finding things I like doing on my own. As far as the typical WW, that is sad. Their behavior is considered within normal for infidelity. Lol. What is this world coming to?

TD, i understand your talk about running. Last year I lost 25 lbs eating healthy and exercising. Until I was hit by a car as I was crossing the street at school.

I will search for the gaslighting thread. Not sure what it is, but I remember someone mentioned it.

I have this terrible fear of whats to come, I may have to ask my parents to take me to a doc so that I can get ADs...

I can't remember if I've posted this to you yet. Please read.

Please Explain Gaslighting

Thanks BH!

That makes so much sense! He has been gaslighting me forever!

Anytime something suspicious would happen he would say I was crazy, I was the FBI, we can't move forward because I don't trust him, he even said I was obsessed with him.

GRR. At one point I actually started to believe maybe I was obsessed, maybe I was crazy...