SC,

What kind of scratch would be appropriate? Are you talking about telling his wife and kids what he did, or something else? Worse? What?

A proportional response.

God Bless
Gamma

You have STIIL answered a different question from the one BV asked. She asked whether you wanted oral sex even if you never got radical honesty. That is not what you answered.

Her two questions have to be taken together. Are you trying to talk to OM, and OM's friends, and to read the love letters and get a confession if possible from your wife, because you want to know the truth about the relationship full stop, so you can make decisions about staying in the marriage (nothing to do with getting oral sex)

or,

Are you doing the above because you want to know the truth of the relationship, and because you think her confession will be a relief to her which will eventually improve your sex life and marriage,

or,

Are you doing the above principally to improve your sex life, but if that improves on its own you will give up seeking those answers?

SC,

Gamma, is your suspicion that your wife had a powerful relationship with this man, and her feelings for him altered the way she felt about you? She married you, but she was then, and perhaps for some time after, in love with him? You have never had the love and passion that it's reasonable to hope for in a marriage because of her feelings for him?

YES, that is a nicely concise way of what I have been trying to say. I can date sexual changes in W and my relationship to that time.

I did have hope that getting married would somehow improve her love and attraction for me, that I could love her enough to make her love me back.

Even after we were married she continued to work with OM2, and there was a time about 6 months into our marriage when she wanted to divorce me and couldn't give a reason. I think she recognized the impossiblity of a life with OM2 for social, financial, OMGF and family reasons.

God Bless
Gamma

Was he married when he had a relationship with your then girlfriend?

Did she really never give a reason? Did she just start saying one day that she wanted a divorce? What did she say when you asked her why? Come on Gamma, she must have said SOMETHING.

How did she subsequently let you know that she did not want a divorce? Did you talk her out of it? How did you do that - what did you promise her? Did she agree to give your marriage a try, or was the subject simply dropped? Did she become pregnant? What happened to stop the divorce?

It seems that he had a girlfriend at that time, not a wife.

SC,

Her two questions have to be taken together. Are you trying to talk to OM, and OM's friends, and to read the love letters and get a confession if possible from your wife, because you want to know the truth about the relationship full stop, so you can make decisions about staying in the marriage (nothing to do with getting oral sex)

Yes,

It's impossible to know how the truth will cause us to act, but we can't act until we know the truth.

I felt the same difficulty when I said yes when someone offered to tell me who my biological parent were, I'm an OC, and I said please tell me.

or,

Are you doing the above because you want to know the truth of the relationship, and because you think her confession will be a relief to her which will eventually improve your sex life and marriage,

Also yes, I understand my Ws sense of guilt.

or,

Are you doing the above principally to improve your sex life, but if that improves on its own you will give up seeking those answers?

NO not doing this to improve my sex life, and I would not stop seeking if I got sex twice a day from my W.

God Bless
Gamma

What would be proportional for this man having had a relationship, possibly a sexual one, with your girlfriend?

Could you answer this one, please, Gamma?

LL,

Was he married when he had a relationship with your then girlfriend?

Not when he had the affair with my W, prior to my W OM2 was with GF1 and GF1 thought W was the reason OM2 left her. After W OM2 married GF2.

I'm not sure when OM2 married GF2, however from the facebook page age and other sources, it appears GF2 may have been the reason OM2 dumped my W.

God Bless
Gamma

SC,

Are you unsure about whether they actually had sex? (I still don't understand exactly what you are trying to find out about their relationship, but I do see your point about historical honesty).

Yes I am unsure if they had sex, but given my W reluctance to speak on the topic, I feel if she had sex she would not ever confess.

Has she said in the past that they did not have sex?

Yes, but also denied that it was an emotional affair as well, and could not give an answer of any kind about what the relationship was.

Has something happened since she told you that to make you suspect that they did have sex after all?

Well the comment about OS being unsafe because of HPV. I would say the same thing if I had cheated because I would not expose my W to whatever infection I might have. There were numerous other statements.

God Bless
Gamma

HPV is linked to to throat and mouth cancers. Regardless, her giving you some logical reasons for why she doesn't want to do OS is what has prompted you to bringing up this past relationship that was not an affair for either party as if it were an affair?

Saying "that's what I would say if I had done..." is a disrespectful judgement. That just simply may not be what she is thinking.

Please write Dr. Harley. What are your reasons for not writing him?

How about some plain English?

What scratches, what debt to be paid?

If she has said that they never had sex, and she has said that they did not have an "emotional affair", could you please explain what happened 20 years ago when they were working together, that makes you define the relationship as an affair? What happened? Did they go out on dates? Did they spend a lot of time together having coffee and lunches? Was the whole office where they worked talking about the fact that they went around together?

When the woman you describe as GF1 says that she was dumped for your girlfriend, what does she mean? I get the "dumped" part, but what happened after that to make GF1 say that your girlfriend was the reason?

I'm sorry to keep firing questions at you, but I have found your story very hard to understand, because the way you write about it is not at all clear.

How about a recap?

How many OM?

How many before while dating?

How many after married?

You will not get close to the truth until a poly is done. And then there is no guarantee.

Can you live with WW if she refuses to take the test?

Can you live with the results because they are not 100% accurate?

Oral is just a smoke screen. WW has closed that door.

Are you saying that she has commented that oral sex is unsafe because of HPV? are you saying that you suspect that she does not want to give you oral sex because she fears she might have contracted HPV from the man 20 years ago, and is she concerned about you and does not want to pass on a disease to you?

If so, that is not the most logical deduction to make. If she has declined to give you oral sex and cited HPV as a reason, it would be logical to assume that she does not want to contract HPV from you. It would be more logical to assume that she fears you picked it up from your previous sexual partners, and she does not want to risk contracting an oral cancer from this.

Until he comes back, TheRoad, you could take a look at two posts from me on the first page of this thread, both dated 19 July 2013. They quote Gamma's words used in a previous thread on this subject.

Gamma, what are the details of the affair with OM3?

When did this supposed affair take place? How long into your marriage? Who was this man? Did they work together?

As far as you know, what did the affair consist of?

I believe you said you only found out about OM3 when she confessed to OM1,2 and 4. What did she confess about OM3?

Possible that WW never wanted to do oral. Disliked the thought of doing it. Enough to never try it.

Possible that OM got WW to try it. That it confirmed her suspicions that it was not her cup of tea (bag).

So you can rule out ever getting her agreement to do it. She tried with someone else first. Now if you were the first and then WW did not like it and did not want to do it any more you know that it would be taken off the table.

You have to kiss oral good bye. It is off the menu.


Contradictions


It has been said that the BS should reclaim things from the affair by doing them with the WS.

If WW did OM on a secluded beach at night and liked it.

Should WW have to do that with BH?


Should a WW have to do everything she did for the OM with her BH?


People have raised POJA. That to have the WW take one for the team against her will is wrong.


Now I will throw out this. A BH never got oral before he married. He always wanted to do it just once to know what it felt first hand as good as others made it seemed.

Hoped his future wife would try it once.

He married her. She said I do not like it, no. Then the H finds out he was a BH and WW did it for the OM. As said before WW found it not to her liking.

Is it right for the WW to deny her BH oral one time because unless he divorces his WW or has an affair the BH is never going to get oral. She will have gotten to experience oral but denies her BH the same experience.

Also WW gave something to her OM that she refuses to do for her BH.

A wife could had experimented with her husband and say no more I don't like it. That would be ok. She tried. The husband should not pester his wife to do it any more.

By not doing it for her BH as much as she did it for her OM she has left her BH second to her OM.

And this is denying the BH to reclaim his WW as is advised on MB forums.

They appear never to have had sex, TheRoad, or even an EA.