Hello all, this is my first post on this forum. I have been lurking here for at least a month, maybe more. We will have been married for 34 years next month, and in April, I discovered my husband's twelve year affair. I confronted him on May 7th... He denied it when first confronted, and then the next day he started talking.

When he did tell me the truth, he told me more than I had discovered on my own. It was worse than I had thought...it was almost �textbook� with what Dr. Harley lists on this site. It had been an on/off twelve year affair. They became �friends� first and then the PA just �started� one day in 2000...and kept on for two years before it cooled. They had NC for four years after that, then she called him out of the blue, he went running, and in 2007, they ended up in bed again. After that, the physical side cooled again. He said that he was (finally) feeling guilty for his actions but that he didn't know �how to end it�. Ugh. However from the looks of his phone records, it was ramping up again when I discovered the affair. They talked an average of 1.5 hours per day at that point.

He went NC within the first week of my confronting. Unfortunately, we had not yet found this site, and so we did not know to send a NC letter...he did it by telephone after I had blocked her number and email.

One of the things that kind of bugs me is that he did NOT seem to go through very much withdrawal. Maybe two weeks that I noticed. I asked him about it, and he said that he had already known that it was wrong and that since he �came clean�, he felt as if a weight had been lifted from his shoulders, and so he feels better. I check phone and email. We put a GPS tracker on his phone.

She is divorced so no notification of spouse. I did mail a letter to her adult children. We have told one of our adult daughters, but have not (yet) told our other daughter because she lives out of state and we want to tell her in person. Other than that, I have only told my closest friends and family, and we did tell my mother in law.

As for other just compensation, he did change jobs just so that he could be home earlier each night. The OP wasn't at his job, but now he is much closer to home each day. He texts me at least once during the day, and texts me when he leaves work. He has agreed to sell every vehicle that was ever at her house, although we haven't gotten to even prep them to sell yet because we are frankly working harder on the huge financial devastation that went unattended by him during his A. Once we spend time on that stuff, and aim for 2-3 hours of UA time per night, there isn't much time left in the day.

I thought that I was content in our marriage previous to D-Day, but now that we have read so much of Dr. Harley's material, we both see that we were withdrawn and had made our own �rooms� in our lives, and we didn't even let each other into each other's bedroom very often (to paraphase Dr. Harley's �LoveBusters� book).

I was figuratively bleeding to death during the first month after confrontation. We spent every waking hour together after my husband got home from work. He listened to my wails over and over, he answered my (same) questions dozens of times.

Once we found this site, we both realized that by learning the MB way, we can gradually change our habits so that we will be able to feel love again. My husband says that he is already back in love, but as for me...not so...until about two weeks AFTER I confronted, I can honestly say that my heart still skipped a beat every time that he walked into the room. But then two weeks in, everything just died for me. Maybe it took that long for it to all sink in after he told me the truth? I even see now after we have read so much, that I ventured into hate. But I think that now that we have done the EN questionnaire and he is trying to meet my EN, and now that we are starting to learn to STOP the LB, I think that I am back to teetering between conflict and withdrawal. I sure hope so, but sadly I still don't feel that �spark�.

My question for the experienced MB'ers is HOW LONG SHOULD I allow myself to remain in this funk and process these feelings before we try to move to recovery? It has been just shy of three months now, and I have been trying to NOT bring them up to my husband...and instead when I feel miserable...I have been telling him that �I need some affection right now�, or when I think about THEM having sex, instead of saying that, I have been telling him that �I need for you to talk about why you like being with me�. Etc.

Unfortunately for me, this is not cutting it. The other night, H told me that it is too soon and that he thinks that I need to still talk about it and cry with him holding me, so that he can re-assure me. I did that, and he did hold and comfort me...and I felt better when I woke up the next morning...but the devastation set back in during that next day. I don't get it because after about 6 weeks, I HAD been feeling a little better....and now this past week it feels like I am right back to D-Day.

The only thing that we can think of that may have caused it, is that last Monday night, hubby had promised to come up to bed in �a few minutes�...after he had taken the dogs out one more time. I woke up 1.5 hours later to no hubby in bed. I got up to find him...he was sitting outside with the dogs, throwing the ball for them. The next day we discussed this, and we realized that it was independent behavior and that neither of us can have this in our lives. We POJA'd it, and decided that from now on there will be a cut-off time with when the dogs go out for the last time in the evening. We still have to POJA more of it, but we are just learning POJA and negotiation skills, and so it takes us a while yet.

I don't see WHY this would throw me back to D-Day. Yes there are similar feelings. YES him �hiding� outside is a trigger since that is what he used to do so that he would call OW at night. But he WASN'T on the phone on Monday...he was playing with the dogs...I DID check the phone records and he had made no calls.

I've read of trickle truths causing people to slide back to D-Day feelings, but can a trigger do the same? Honestly sometimes I feel as if I'm already past gone insane. The �me� that was my constant companion for 51 years of my life, seems to be gone. Poof! I did have ovarian cancer surgery one year ago next month, and so I know that I wasn't totally recovered from that when this all hit, but I did go back to my gyn/oncologist last month, and he gave me a glowing report. So this feeling has to be all from the affair.

HOW LONG is it safe to allow myself to feel like this? I don't think that I am LoveBusting him any more when I bring up the A. He will ask what I am thinking, I will tell him (for example) that I am feeling sad because I was thinking of say a long ago vacation and feeling sad that during that time he was having an A when I thought that things were so great, he will remind me that we have EP in place and that we are doing POJA and PORH, and so that will never happen again. These conversations don't necessarily make me feel any better, but they DO make me feel heard. Should we stop them already? Dr. Harley says that once all of the questions are answered, to never bring up the affair again. Is three months enough time for me to force myself to move on?

I would have to force it, as I still routinely have dreams during my sleep that leave me waking up feeling over-the-top angry at H. I wake up feeling as if it just happened today, and I feel just as sad and angry as I did two weeks after D-Day. When I feel like this, I still don't know if I even WANT to stay married? How do I go about figuring that out?

We are getting at least 15 hours of UA. We WERE previously getting at least 25 hours, and I notice the difference. We are trying this week to go back to the 25 hours, but so far something has come up each day that interferes. I realize that WE have to stop those interferences, but we aren't doing a very good job of that (yet). As for dates, last week, we went out to dinner one evening, and another day we went to the park. We are trying to meet each other's EN, but I do think that we are still falling short (hubby seems to be floundering on my need for affection, and I seem to be floundering on his need for admiration). POJA and PORH we are both trying hard, but it is very new to us, as in the last 30 days, so we flounder on that a lot....however, we BOTH have been comfortable this past week to call each other on it when we miss the bullseye. As for eliminating LB, again it is new and we are trying, and we have called each other on them AND we respond kindly to the complaints.

Welcome to MB and so sorry for this devastation.

I'm glad you found MB. How did he meet this OW? What conditions allowed him to have his affair?

Will you and your WH email the radio show and both talk to the Harleys?



Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I'm so sorry for your pain. Many of us here have gone through the same trauma and come out the other side. Some are divorced but recovered personally and others, like me and my H, have come out with a brand new marriage that is better than ever, following carefully the plan MB has to offer.


Is your father-in-law a part of your lives? He should know, too. How about your parents? Not only is this to help keep your husband accountable, it is also for badly needed support for you during this time. Most people say that an affair was the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to them.


The minimum UA time to maintain love is 15 hours per week. To build it, especially after an affair, the UA time should be upped to 20 - 25 hours per week. These hours should be scheduled every week and made top priority.


Many people have this kind of marriage. They live together as two independent people and figure they're happily married. (We were the same way.)But in reality, they aren't integrated nor are they in love with each other.



It is quite normal for this to happen. You were already probably doing a good job of meeting your H's emotional needs. It was easy enough for him to fall back in love with you once the OW was out of his life. For you to fall in love with him is a much bigger task. His account in your love bank (to use Dr. Harley's terminology) suffered a huge drop when you found out about the affair. It is probably negative right now and it will take time and the meeting of your ENs consistently and persistently for you to fall in love with him. AND the elimination of Love Busters.


Your responses to your triggers are correct. After we have all our answers, we are not to talk about the affair anymore. You need to know the conditions that led to the affair so each condition can be eliminated. You need to know where it took place, the time period, who knew about it and didn't tell you, and anything else that will shed light on this tragedy. Once you have your answers, it is very important (and very hard, yes) to never bring it up again.

There isn't an answer for how long. Every day in the right direction is a step toward recovery. One day you will look at him and realize you are actually in love with him again. This actually depends on how good your H is at meeting your needs and avoiding love busters.


Your husband doesn't understand how to recover from an affair. He believes it helps you to talk about it, but it actually hurts. It's in the past and the past can not ever be repaired and changed. You can only fix the present so that the future is better.

I talked about it, too, and was VERY VERY angry and railed at my H. Now, thankfully, he "took" it and always expressed remorse. Many unfaithful spouses can't or won't respond this way. He described my anger later as a love buster to him, although he completely understood where it was coming from. It didn't make things better. It always made things worse. Talking about it never made me feel better; it always brought back the pain. That's the way our memories work.

The Harleys said in a radio show that they rarely talk about the past, even though they have had a great past. Joyce said that when they reminisce, they have a tendency to get maudlin. You and your H really have to concentrate on the present and the future.


You two are "getting it." Your H's being away from your bed was a trigger. Once you discover your triggers, each of them need to be eliminated. Sounds like you are in the right direction.


There are many many triggers out there: movies, music, certain expressions, vehicles, places, behaviors, and the list goes on. And not coming to bed when he said he would. So yes, continue to work on the POJA.


Trickle truth is devastating to a marital recovery. Many betrayed spouses on this forum sign up for a polygraph so they can get the whole truth and then be done with it.

Affairs change people. My husband and I both feel very different from the pre-A folks we were.


Once you have ALL your questions answered, you should not discuss the affair any longer. It is an enemy of good conversation. Your brain is likely to be hammered for some time to come as you proceed through the recovery period. You need to learn to control your thoughts and focus on today, today, today. I had to do the same. Constantly, daily, hourly. I had to tell myself over and over again "look what he's doing NOW." Over and over again....


Again, totally normal, I'm sorry to say. You are on the roller coaster and you will suffer many emotional highs and lows. It may be very helpful for you to see your doctor and get a short-term prescription for anti-depressants. A proper prescription will simply help your emotions to become more even; you will not feel strange or drugged. There are some good ones that have very little to no sexual side effects. It can be just for a few months until you're past the first stage of recovery.

We found that recovering from an affair is a lot like grieving. People grieve when they find their spouse has been unfaithful. Loss of the sanctity of the marriage and the betrayal of trust is a devastating loss. It takes some time for the truth of this to simply sink into the brain. Then we often get very angry. It's the anger phase we have to really watch out for. We are insane when we're angry and can hurt our spouse and make terrible decisions. This is the time to learn how to be calm under great pressure.


Sounds like you two are on the right track. Do you have the Five Steps workbook? It has some excellent worksheets where each spouse can fill in the specifics.

Recovery is a journey, not a destination. It will take a couple of years at the minimum for you to feel less resentment. The better the present is, the less you will resent what he has done.

Does your H have a list of Extraordinary Precautions that he abides by? The EPs are part of Just Compensation and are very important to prevent another affair. He should not just block his number; he should change all contact information, making it impossible for the OW to ever contact him again.

Here's a good show.

Radio Clip of A Ten Year Affair
Segment #2
Segment #3

Hello BrainHurts and LongWayfromHome, thank you for your responses!

I have to tell you that I have read both of your stories previously. You were such an inspiration! You both display such truths and positive attitudes (and you have all along), so thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your stories so candidly. I learned a lot just by reading.

H met the OW back in 1998 when he did some work for her. The conditions that allowed him to have his affair were that we did not have any EP in place in our marriage (neither of us did). We both had times for our work when we had to spend lots of alone time with people of the opposite sex.

Dr. Harley is RIGHT when he says that anyone can have an affair. Same old tragic story from what I've read about here in most every affair. We did not take the Eps to prevent an affair.

H and OW gradually developed a friendship and by 2000, both started meeting each other's emotional needs. For H, first it was the need for Admiration, and then once that was in place, all of the other needs followed suit.

As far as both of us writing to Joyce Harley and being on the radio show, I will speak with H tonight to see what he feels about it. I think that it may be a little difficult for myself (I am still breaking into sobs at the drop of a hat), but I may be willing.

My Father in Law and my Mother are both deceased. I realllllly would prefer not to tell my father if I can get away without telling him. He has had some huge life tragedies lately (to do with other family members and including my Mother's death), and he is just now bouncing back. I am his only daughter, plus he grieved so horribly with my cancer last year. It's not that he wouldn't support me (and us)...it's that he is 82 years old and I don't want this to put him over the edge. Your thoughts are welcome on that, thank you.

Yes, we definitely notice a difference with less than 25 hours per week UA time. It's not for lack of trying...it's that H ignored our finances ever since I had cancer and couldn't work, and now the creditors are at our door. I contacted all of my creditors months ago and made arrangements, but H never had. Now he is...and so has to take phone calls and make phone calls regarding that business. However there has to be a way around it constantly butting into our time together....so we will POJA that subject tonight.

Yep, we definitely were not integrated. We each had our own lives. H had realized this before, but that truth was a real eye-opener to me (when we read that section in LoveBusters). Truly with what I know now, I would NEVER have accepted living �less than� back then. We used to fling so many LB'ers, that we both just went to our corners and lived our lives.

We have discovered as we go along that many seemingly innocent things now do turn out to be triggers for me....and often (like the playing with the dog thing), it seems to take us a few days to figure out that it WAS a trigger. We definitely need to get better at finding a way to investigate odd feelings like that so that the two of us can figure out what is a trigger, and then what to do about it? Obviously remove it...but as in the dog thing, the dogs DO have to go out at night, and so we POJA about timeframes, and how to keep even THAT in a �transparent� mode. Everything feels so difficult right now as we are learning.

>>Once you have ALL your questions answered, you should not discuss the affair any longer. It is an enemy of good conversation. Your brain is likely to be hammered for some time to come as you proceed through the recovery period. You need to learn to control your thoughts and focus on today, today, today. I had to do the same. Constantly, daily, hourly. I had to tell myself over and over again "look what he's doing NOW." Over and over again....<<

VERY well said and yes I can do that. I am seeing now that maybe there are some more things that I do need to ask (read below), and then I must lay it to rest. It makes perfect sense what you said about the affair focusing on the past and thus dragging up all of the feelings AGAIN will cause me to feel badly. Things ARE already better in our M than pre-affair, so it WILL help me to focus on now and the future. Thank you.

Hammered Brain, hahaha, not at all minimizing it or making ANY fun because yep, my brain is hammered. That just gave me a little chuckle.

Yes, the anger stage is definitely here. I look at him and feel huge resentment and disgust right now. VERY good point about being aware of those feelings so that I do something else besides rail at and LB him. I have already been practicing what Dr. Harley spoke of regarding practicing relaxation (I am meditating alone in a quiet room each day) while we are thinking of something yucky. That is as far as I've gotten so far, but I do think that since I've been doing this daily (for only two weeks now), that it IS helping me to recognize when I feel like railing at H. Most times I can keep it in check, and for the times that I feel as if I can't keep it in check, we have (so far) worked together to achieve a �time out�. <----AMAZING!

Yes we have the Five Steps Workbook. We read together every single night, a part of a chapter and then we talk, talk, talk.

We are only a little over 1/2 way through reading LoveBusters so far, and we have only used one of the Workbook questionnaires. I know that we have missed working on the LB questionnaires in the workbook, but we thought that maybe there was a point in the LB book where it specifically tells us to DO the questionnaires?

THANK YOU for linking that radio show. Wow, Roger's story is very similar to mine as far as timeline and also in that he Roger is 3 months after D-Day. Plus it was as Dr. Harley calls it a �monogamous� affair. In effect my spouse had �another wife�. Ugh I hate to even write that, but yes it feels exactly like that.

I have emailed that show to H so that he can listen on the way home from work.

What I picked up from the show: So NOW I need to get to know H as the man that he really is. He must feel safe to be able to expose himself in a way to me that might add insult to injury (as Dr. Harley put it on the show). I need to ask about the role that I played in his life as opposed to the role that OP had in his life. Ugh, I haven't even thought of that prior to hearing this radio clip. H needs to explain the things to me that he kept from me before (about himself, not the A).

Thank you, THANK YOU very much for sharing that radio clip with me. It was hugely insightful.

Wow, my friend you write so much like our friend LongwayFromHome, with such grace that I love to read your writings. I don't like to read about Your pain because you write and I can feel your pain.

I can tell you've been studying and reading MB and I think as long as your WH is onboard to do the work that your M will be recovered. But I also believe that you, my friend, will find personal recovery.

Don't worry about crying if you were to go on the show, the Harleys are wonderful and are so very caring. Joyce and Dr. Harley will actually call and talk to you personally before the show and they will know if you need time.

I think you will find them wonderful.

I know money is tight right now for you and other than the online program or MB coaching, this is the best way to have access to Dr. Harley for free.

I thought there was a follow up show for Roger and his wife and I will try and find it.

Have you read the managing memories and triggers thread yet?

Here it is. Listen to the clips I posted towards the end about flooding.

Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers

Has your WH changed all his contact information? Other than OW's adult child who else did you expose to on her side?

Welcome to Marriage Builders, BlindSighted. You've come to the right place to recover your marriage.

You and your WH both seem to be on the right path, although your UA time is too low. Work on building that up to 25-30 hours per week.

What you are feeling is a normal part of recovery. We call it the rollercoaster. One day you're 'up' and confident that you're going to make it, and then the next day you're 'down' and convinced that you'll never be able to repair your marriage. This will pass. Please understand that it takes 2-5 years to recover from the damage of adultery. You need to be committed to the ebbs and flows that come with recovery.

There are things you can do to help yourself along the way. The first one is to stop talking about the affair. It is counter-productive to keep bringing it up - I know from experience, because I made the mistake of bringing it up over and over in our early stages. That didn't help us - it hindered us. I had to learn to STOP IT. That's when things really started to click.

Understand this: there are things you want to know: WHEN did they meet? "What about this day, or that day? What did you say to her? What about the time...?"

To continue asking these questions is not productive to your recovery, but are a hindrance. I stop just short of comparing them to trickle-truthing: just when your H thinks you've gotten your questions answered, you blind-side him with another question. It's like 'trickle-questioning' - that's unhealthy for your recovery.

You need to understand the nature of an affair, and to understand that we are ALL wired for affairs. The fact is that your husband had one, and you are now in recovery. (And I'm wondering if your thread shouldn't be moved to the Recovery thread, so you can get recovery-oriented help there - just a suggestion.)

As far as triggers go: you're going to get those. They're a part of the rollercoaster and are your mind's way of protecting you. Those will lessen and eventually fade as you recover. During my H's affair, he took the OW to a little Italian restaurant that he and I enjoyed frequenting. After D-Day and full disclosure, I couldn't imagine going there. The thought was a trigger for me. Even being on the highway that led to the restaurant was a trigger for me. A few years later we had a great dinner there - and reclaimed the restaurant as our own. This will happen for you as well - you just need to work through the emotional rollercoaster that comes with recovery. I'm sorry - if I could take that away from you, I would in a heartbeat, because I know how it feels.

Stay with us and we'll help you through recovery.

Thanks, your compliment warmed my heart. Hopefully as we all stay on the MB path, our pain will lessen and turn into happiness. I'm trusting on it based on how much relief that we have felt since finding MB.


We talked a bit about it last evening. I think that for now, we are both more comfortable with just sending an email. We will do that.


We would LOVE it, thank you!


Wow BrainHurts, thank you. I listened to all of those clips, and I have forwarded them on to my H today.

Segment #2 on the radio clip on Triggers is chalk full of great direction towards stopping the A discussion. I found it very interesting that when Joyce suggested that they would send the caller �Surviving an Affair�, Dr. Harley stepped in and said �nope, he doesn't even want to send that book to her, because he doesn't want her going back there now (after five years)�.

I need to substitute an alternative thought whenever I start thinking about the A.


No, he has not changed his cell phone number. That is his contact number for business, and it really would wreak havoc to have to change that. I so far have not considered that to be vital, but now that I am typing this response, BOY I really don't want to take the chance and kick myself five years from now about it.

I only exposed to the OW's adult children on her side (she has two). She is 65 and not on FB or any place online that I could find info regarding extended family. She did not seem to be very computer literate. I'm okay with having just exposed to her children. Am I being careless by not investigating further?

Thanks maritalbliss for your reply.

Yes, H and I made a schedule last night so that we will get our hours in each day. We even padded the schedule a little bit to allow for unforeseen interruptions. It made me feel very cared for.


All good points, and I needed to read that today, thank you.


Points VERY well taken...haha to trickle-questioning, again well said. Now to STOP it...I needed to come to this site I think, because prior to now, I really knew that I had to stop bringing it up, but I allowed myself that leeway thinking that it was "too soon". I totally appreciate everyone sharing their paths so openly...and I am not going to mentally argue with the advice of long term recovered (yay!) people, so I definitely am going to STOP it. I'm sure that I will stumble a bit, but then I will come here and ask for help.

For right now, I am going to try my bestest to substitute that thinking for the NOW thinking. TODAY hubby is being loving. TODAY he is being attentive and affectionate, etc.


AWE!~ Talk about a warm welcome here. Thank you! I am truly in awe that you were able to reclaim that restaurant as your own. What an inspiration to read!

Okay, the rollercoaster is normal...that one day I think that we can do it and then next (or even the same day), I think HECK NO. That is part of recovery....so that is a GOOD thing! If no rollercoaster, then we wouldn't see that we ARE doing the correct work for recovery.

If you two can swing the expense, the Online Seminar Course is really good. We completed it in about a year. Reading the posts in the Weekend Seminar Forum is so helpful and you can post to Dr. Harley there, where he will answer your questions directly within a few days. The coach will help steer you in the right direction and provide accountability.

Each LB and each EN has several worksheets that correspond with it. So after reading the chapter, each of you would fill out the worksheets.

Have you already filled out the Marital Problem Analysis to determine what the key problem areas are? If not, that's a good place to start. That way, you can dive right into a particular Love Buster. Or Emotional Need that could improve.

We started with Surviving an Affair, then moved to Anger, since that was my big one after D-Day. We worked our way through the rest of them, even the ones that hadn't been a problem.

I ran into a big obstacle when it came to not bringing up the affair. Bringing up the A tended to lead to my AOs. Finally, I spoke with our coach and we agreed that we would take a break from LB, since we had covered our serious problems and go into the HNHN chapter on Intimate Conversation. We read through the chapter, a couple of pages each night. Then I made copies of the corresponding worksheet about Friends and Enemies of Good Conversation. Every day, I started with a blank sheet. Sometimes I ended the day with a few "enemies" listed. I'd think about how that happened and start all over again the next day. There were still times I brought it up, but there were many many MORE times I was thinking about it and NOT bringing it up, so at least it was proceeding in the right direction. It seemed obvious to me after a while that I had to find ways to redirect my thoughts.

My H agreed with me to help me by always, very gently and kindly, telling me that the conversation was no longer pleasant and that we need to stick to following the plan. Then we'd change the subject or the venue.

Recovery was very hard, the hardest process I have ever been through, but the end result, where we are now, is worth all the effort. We just can't get over what we call our "new" marriage. My H says, correctly, that the old marriage is now dead, that we are, in a way, newlyweds.

You two both know so much more about how a great marriage works and what it will take, and how Extraordinary Precautions will help avoid an affair.

As long as each of you keep making the right choices every day, every hour, every minute, putting your marriage first, above everything else, you will be heading in the right direction.

Yes, we are hoping to be able to do that soon. We don't really have the funds, but since it is so important, we are setting aside a (small) amount each week. We have almost $40 saved already. I had not realized purchasing that would also allow you to read and post in the Weekend Seminar Forum. I can see how that would be very helpful.

NO! I had not realized that there was such a form. It doesn't appear to be in our Five Steps to Romantic Love Workbook. But I just did a google search and found it. Thank you for mentioning it. I have printed it off and we will take it with us on our little drive tonight. We are having a "date" drive where we will go and see the lights of a nearby city and then stop for dinner on the way home. Cheap date and we already had planned to read the book and talk for a bit on the way.

I can see how difficult that it is going to be. Today is my first day at not bringing it up. This morning went fine, but that was just passing with our coffee cups. TODAY (while H is at work) I have been practicing changing my mental mind tapes. It is so difficult. It's like this has "defined" me for the last four months now (I had discovered before confronting), and so it's almost like NOW WHAT? What else do I think about?

Funny that you mention Intimate Conversation... I realized as I was thinking today, that although I am always thinking that H is not giving ME enough IC, truly I am not very good (lately) at thinking of anything else to talk about besides the A. So I made a list of questions for myself to glance at tonight while we are together. I hope that some of these questions will help H to feel as if I still am trying (even though I waffle a lot in the withdrawn state).

I tried to search the forums here to see if anyone else had come up with a list of questions. I did not find any, but I am sure that there are some. In any case, I will copy and share mine in my next post here.

Great idea! Love the idea of saying it as "following the plan". It is! And that way it need not feel judgmental at all.

Love reading this! It seemed from my reading your old posts, that you started to feel pretty good about each other after maybe 9-10 months of working on MB. I didn't just now go back and read, so I apologize if I've got that wrong. Just curious about how long you feel that it took you before a good portion of the anger and grief started to abate?


Yes, I do feel that we are both putting our marriage above all else. H has times where he seems to focus on DO-ing things around here (which he has neglected for twelve years), and YES I do want those things done...for instance this weekend we are going to try to stain our deck...BUT to me I feel that focusing on the things that need DONE takes away from our UA time. So in that specific situation, I do feel that sometimes he is momentarily not focusing on "us" first....but when I bring it up to him, he quickly agrees and gets back to focus.

We try to go middle-of-the-road right now and plan one small project each week, as opposed to something every night.

Right now, I am extraordinarily sensitive, and every little thing can rub me the wrong way. It's like my boundaries went on hyper-drive, and so I complain about anything that bothers me. MB tells us that complaints are good (criticism is not), and we do talk about it in a loving way and POJA things...it's just that then when we work on projects together right now, I feel that everything is sooooo difficult due to so many of my "wait, we need to talk about this because when you just said this, I felt...".

So that's where we are today. Thank you again for sharing your time and your story with all of us. It is very appreciated!

My little list of questions for Intimate Conversation: (other ideas and/or suggestions welcome!)

1. If you could have an ideal situation for recovery, what would you like it to be?
2. What are you feeling most hopeful about for our future?
3. What did I do recently that made you feel loved?
4. What did I do recently that made you feel badly?
5. Tell me some things that you especially like about me.
6. What would you like our M to look like in one year? In 2 years? In 5 years?
7. What are you most proud of yourself for?
8. What are you most proud of me for?
9. What is your fondest memory of doing something with your Dad?
10. What is your fondest memory of doing something with your Mom?
11. What are you most content with in your life right now?
12. Who was the relative that influenced you the most in your life? Why?
13. How do you feel about us spending so much time together now?
14. What are you most anxious to get accomplished on the house?
15. What motivates you to go to work each day? What is the hardest thing about your new job? What is the best thing?
16. What do you feel is one (or more) of your biggest strengths? Biggest weaknesses?
17. What topics would you be interested in us both learning more about and then discussing together?

I had a difficult time wanting to "probe" for any more discovery about H's past...I am too new at this and don't want to accidentally trigger A feelings. We used to talk non-stop about our families, what it was like growing up, etc. I guess I just don't want to go there right now (I have a bit of resentment about how my mother in law has responded to the A). So that is why not too many "historical" type questions.

Trying to focus on the present and future!

We sometimes ran into road blocks, too. We once owned a game called "The Ungame" and there were piles of cards with questions. I copied a lot of the cards and kept them on hand for ice-breakers. Then I found they came in handy when we needed a little help in the conversation department. I actually have a bunch of them on a spreadsheet.

Here are a few light-hearted questions we enjoyed talking about together:

If you could change your age, what age would you rather be?

If you could live anyplace in the world, where would it be?

If money was no object, where would you like to travel?

If you had to move and could take only three things with you, what would you take?

What is your favorite song?

If you were a doctor, what ailment would you like to cure?

Name two famous people you would like to have for parents.

Share three things for which you are thankful.

What is your favorite party game?

What kind of job do you want to have in 20 years?

How would you change the world to make it better if you had enough power?

If you were lost in the woods and it got dark, what would you do?

Of course, only we can really define what meets our needs. And then sometimes it's hard to tell just what does, because sometimes it takes a lot of that need being met to get the necassary emotional reaction.

That can make Intimate Conversation seem daunting.

One thing is starting with this article;

Conversation is Boring (Meeting the Need for Conversation)

Second, I did some digging about conversation and intimacy. What I found helped in 2 ways; it reduced stress as to how "deep" intimate conversation is or is not, and it allowed us to know how and where to develop boundaries in conversations with people outside the marriage.

Just going to straight quote here instead of citing;




These are my thoughts concerning IC and the progresson through these stages;

At stage 3 you are in intimate conversation. In stage 2, you are opening the door. These 2 stages, in regard to the friends of good conversation, are informing and investigating your spouse. These should be daily aims in conversation with your spouse. Good conversation in levels two and three aid in progressing to levels 4 and 5.

Levels 6 and 7 are the deepest, but aren't particularly going to be constant, daily conversation. They are, however, where you are going to be when you communicate your needs and/or complaints.

So, for the most part, hitting 4/5 during UA time should be fulfilling IC.


On boundaries;

Conversation with people of the opposite sex should probably never progress past level 2. At level 5 you are looking at a high risk for LB$ deposits and the lure of infidelity.

Really great post, HHH!

X2

Triple H!!!!

I third that! WOW WOW WOW!!

Thanks to both LongWayfromHome and HoldHerHand for sharing your vast experience and ideas. There is so much info here that this will provide IC ideas for a long long while.

H expressed last night that he feels frustrated that our UA time is taking up so much of our time that we don't have the time to do anything regarding repairs on our house. We did manage to powerwash the deck this weekend, but H had hoped to be able to repair/replace old boards last evening, and by the time that we had 3.5 hrs of UA time, and ate dinner, played with the dogs, it was past time to get ready for bed (this had not been scheduled on our UA schedule...and H had not discussed it...he had just hoped that we would have extra time).

H's frustration triggered me for a bit (and I will speak with him about that this evening). As the BS, I want HIM to guide our recovery. I want HIM to guard our UA time, and I want HIM to do the work of being sure that he does what is needed so that I am feeling "level" (I know that I can't expect yet to feel "good", but level is okay with me since level doesn't include PTSD symptoms).

His complaint about UA time taking up so much of our lives feels badly to me...he didn't put it disrespectfully or demanding...he put it as "can we maybe do both?". He wants me to read the book out loud while we are doing something else mindless at the same time? He meant as in I sit on the deck and read while he is screwing in new boards. We DO usually read while we are driving, and so to him this is the same thing....we DO stop and talk, talk, talk about the material and usually spend more time talking than reading.

The deck idea though isn't what UA time is for, is it? Undivided attention means no other interferences, correct? But then on the other hand, people go to dinner and that is UA time and they still eat and take the time to look at the menu, haha, okay I am splitting hairs here it sounds like...so what does everyone think? CAN we actually do some mindless work around the house while we are say, asking each other some of the questions that are listed above?

Another question...Shark Week is on the Discovery Channel right now. We are both interested and H thought that maybe we can use that for UA time since we DO sit and discuss and talk about it while we are watching it. Does watching a tv show or a movie qualify as UA time IF it is something like this that does stimulate conversation?

Blindsighted2013,

I want to caution you against thinking that your H should be guiding the recovery. You BOTH need to be doing this. He should be doing all the EPs, meeting your needs, avoiding LBs, engaging with you in the UA time... and vice-versa. You are each accountable to the other. Recovery from an A is a joint effort.

Every Sunday afternoon, sit together and make a schedule. Put in the work hours and meal preparation, sleep, etc, then your UA hours, then there still ought to be time left for house projects, completed a bit at a time.

The UA time needs to be the most enjoyable hours of your week in order for it to be effective. Four four-hour dates during which the four most important ENs are being met, while also avoiding all LB, rather like when you were dating. You were having fun, right? Unless you both think repairing the deck is fun, this should be scheduled outside of the UA hours.

It's important to be careful with the UA time and not to short-change yourselves and your marriage by trying to skip steps. Dr. Harley recommends strongly against TV as a UA activity. He recommends actually getting out of the house for the UA time.

The reason for this is because it's so easy to become distracted from each other while at home. Also, when at home, couples tend to look a bit ratty. If they go out someplace, they will often take care with appearance. At home, couples often THINK they're spending quality time with each other, when actually they are passing each other in the hall, ignoring each other while on respective computers, etc.

Once your UA time is enjoyable and you are enjoying wonderful conversation and affection with your H and he is having fun with you during a recreational activity and each date ends with mutually satisfying love-making, he will likely decide that the deck can wait.

Good Morning LongWayFromHome! Wonderful as always to see your reply.

I am posting a bit of an update and some more (of my) food for thought. I am soooooo grateful for this board and for all of the members who share their own stories here!



Point very well taken, thank you. I do see that we both need to become peers on equal footing with an equal voice in our marriage. That is definitely our goal.

Neither of us is totally avoiding LBs yet. I still vacillate between Withdrawal and Conflict, and H seems to have some difficulty in not getting sucked into my rollercoaster ride.

H is rarely if ever LB'ing me any more except for in response to my LB'ers to him. Our problem at the moment is that he doesn't seem to be able to remember from one time to the next that it IS my Taker talking when I DJ him, so he quite often does still respond in kind. We've read threads here, heard Dr. Harley's radio clips on it, etc...and he does get it that my going into conflict is a GOOD thing...but he doesn't seem to be able to stop himself from responding when we are in it.

During the day, I can usually recognize this and suggest a time out. Later into the evening though when I am tired, instead of a break, I NEED to get away from it because his LoveBank balance is not rallying very well with me yet, I still often look at him with resentment, and so I opt for removing myself from the room. H seems to follow me around though, and it is very difficult for me to NOT re-engage. Last night he did admit to me that when I walk away, he feels lonely and abandoned (I never do it desrespectfully...I always explain that I am going to go leave the room so that we don't spiral down into LB'ers).

This same stuff has a ring of commonality clear back to the beginning of our marriage. H withdrew years ago due to his lack of practicing radical honesty. We see that now but had no idea then. H was very hurt after our children were born and I did not spend as much time with him, and instead of telling me about that, he stuffed his feelings and allowed those issues to turn into LB'ers. Again, we see this now. But I get it that my needing time alone is triggering that....it's just that I CANNOT talk about the A...and so how do I handle it when I ASK for help and he doesn't respond, and so I feel frustrating and angry. I KNOW that I could tell him calmly that perhaps I didn't explain well and that I NEED for him to �_____ fill in the current need�. But what happens to me still is that I seem to go from 0 to 60 in a nano-second, and if I don't get myself out of there, I WILL have an AO or at the least a DJ.

It has only been three months since I discovered a twelve year affair. I'm going to be honest here and say that I feel that I am "sacrificing" right now by NOT bringing up the A, but I also totally agree with the FACT that my bringing up the A only makes it harder for ME to mentally handle things.

H HAS answered all of my questions, along with all of the other JC that I have posted here before. I also spoke with him last evening about changing his cell number and he agreed to change it, in spite of it being his work phone. Also, he just did the sweetest thing today....he is working near OW neighborhood and so he texted me to LOOK at the GPS so that I can see where he is. He also included in the text that he had driven there in his boss's truck so that he is �in cognito� ROFLOL. That meant a TON to me!

But anyway, when I think of IT, instead of bringing it up, I am asking for what I need when I feel like I am second choice, or when I feel that H is not attracted to me, or when I picture them having sex. My problem at the moment is that H only SOMETIMES recognizes that I am crying out for help...only SOMETIMES responds immediately to my need for re-assurance (btw, this is also an ongoing problem in our M...H has figured it out now for himself and brought it up to ME that he used to routinely ignore my issues until (his words), things got so bad that I would have to wail to get his attention).

Nowadays, when H doesn't respond immediately, I go right back down the rabbit hole and then I am ANGRY and hurt and prefer to go off and lick my wounds, feeling totally that he DOESN'T care about me, and furthering that notion by beating myself up royally for being so STUPID to allow myself to stay in a situation (at that moment) that is not nurturing for me.

Can we say emotions? If anything, MY anger has only gotten worse in the last week when I have totally stopped talking about the A. In fact, now when it pops into my head, I am working overtime to re-route my own thinking. I know that is my �job� right now and I am not complaining...however, I do have to admit that it is upsetting the (already precarious) apple cart regarding LB and EN's.

I went to the doctor this week, and he still does not want to prescribe antidepressants (I have had issues with them in the past). I can take something to sleep though. H and I discussed this last night and we are okay with it....so that means that for now until the anger phase passes from me, H has agreed to be more understanding when I need to walk away or have some alone time to collect myself so as NOT to LB him. H has also agreed to sit with me at night while I exercise, OR to take walks with me when he is able (he had a back injury two months ago). If I can drink enough water during the day, keep up with my meditations, exercise every day, and hopefully have a bit more understanding from H, I think that we can keep things on more of an even keel than they have been. God I hope so!

Okay I am going to have to respond to the rest of your wonderful post later. I just re-read what I wrote and I do hope that it has come across as truthful rather than totally negative. I AM having a tough time since no more A talk with H. But I also AM trusting that MB and Dr. Harley and all of you KNOW what you are talking about, and so I am hopeful that it will help us in the long run.

It is so therapeutic for me to post here, thank you MB! I am off now to do a few things that need done, and I will be back later or in the morning. H and I are having a real bona-fide date tonight! Yay!