okay, here goes the truth. i have not ever been "vague," with my husband. I more than clearly state what i need and what i will or won't tolerate in our marriage. he is the vague one. Semantics about what constitutes an affair, etc. He has not read the books, only parts of them. he chooses what he likes like "not dwelling on the past," because then he figures he does not have to deal with any questions regarding last summer's emotional and probably physical to a degree affair.He doesn't like the term disrespect. Well not having respect and insulting me by saying I am "crazy" to believe anything happened with OW, is in fact disrespectful. So you see what i am getting at here.
thanks, Nell

Can you afford MB coaching?

yes, we can afford the marriage coaching. But before we do the coaching, I need to know for sure my husband is on board. Not going through the motions. He wants to "put it all behind us, just forgive and forget." As you may know, Dr. Harley frowns on that solution which is not a solution at all, if people want a good marriage. He suggests doing the steps to survive an affair. We are waiting for that book to arrive, but we already have Love Busters and Fall in Love Stay in Love and His Needs Her Needs. But my husband has not read them. Just browsed through Love Busters a while ago. The setback to recovery was blatantly ignored by his speaking to OW last week. It was a mistake to stay where the OW was, on both our parts.We should have gone out of there like the wind upon seeing her where we went. I know that in hindsight of course. We mistakenly listened to "friends" who told us we had a "right" to be in that bar, as much as OW did. She does not "win." That of course is nonsense. If it is not good for us, we do not belong there, period. Again, hindsight. My husband talking to OW was a breach in our agreement of Extraordinary Precautions. He said he never agreed to such. That is a lie. He did.No contact in any shape or form.And as far as I know no contact has been made since Oct./November hurricane week. Someone on forum, not you, asked a few questions: Did we expose affair? I did, when I knew, even though we were separated at time. In my view, and many others, including Dr. Harley,we were still married. I did not see men while separated. I was working on myself and grieving for what was going to be a divorce after 35 years. Then we stopped proceeding to that end when mediator was out of country in August. Enter OW,In my house,etc., who was waiting on sidelines whole summer and conveniently broken up with her boyfriend. She is a widow, three times married and 45 yrs old. With lots of money.
I came home after my husband said he did not have any "relationship" with OW. They only had "dinner twice and went to beach, he met her kids, she was in our house while I was moved out and took a soak with him in our hot tub (in their bathing suits!), groan, really? and drank champagne, and she "slept" over, with him in our bed, but they had "no sex, but kissed." They were "too drunk.." He could not perform.How do you know if you do not try???
Knowing what I knew, and not believing him, it was too preposterous, I stayed away at my apartment but we saw one another with our grown kids at our house. He said again "there is no one I am "seeing." But the talk was around town and my real friends told me they were seen many places together.
My therapist at the time advised me to "date" my husband if I wanted but stay in my apartment. she spoke of "forces of nature.." I rolled my eyes at that one. See 'how it goes.." I did not take her advice. I saw him, slept with him, believing the no sex part, and believed he was not seeing anyone during that time we were together. I eventually moved home. Then the evidence started showing up that OW was not gone at all.
She was not giving up, that was apparent. I sent her an email after snooping his computer and finding her email address. I asked her nicely to back off and let us repair our marriage. Find other bars to go to, since we all sing karaoke in a small town, basically respect us. She does not live here full time, but can be here seemingly a lot. The whole she has a lot of money bit.And her mother babysits.
She did not respond to me, but sent the e mail to him. He had a fit. At me! So then I knew he was acting quite not like a guy who ended anything, but annoyed I had spoken to her. Why defend her? I wondered. Very strange reaction to a nothing "relationship."
I calmly told him I was standing up for myself and it was between her and I the e mail, I wanted to let her know the deal. Well, the deal was mine, obviously, not his. I was a fool.He was a liar. We spoke about it, from my apartment on phone. He was sticking to his story and said they did NOT have a "relationship" at all, she was just hoping or "who knows what she thought..." he said. Really? I am sure he led her on.
They talked about me. She is "a supporter of yours," he actually said. Really? How so??? "She admires you." Hah!
I am sure had I spoken to her she would have told me they were still an item and what the heck was I talking about! But we never spoke. She is a coward. And an opportunist. But she did not act alone. I am not blaming her. he has free will.
My husband kept telling me he ended whatever thing they had, but she was not getting the hint. The hint being my husband is the king of Vague. I know this. I know him for 40 years! We are married for 36. Again, shame on me.He was hedging his bets.If we did not reunite, he had her in the wings.
I told him I wanted to come home only if he was done with her. He assured me he was. And then I found out he was not. She continued to text him and I intercepted a text as it was being sent back and forth on a synced I Pad. I felt ill.I was staying at our house, during hurricane last Fall, but not moved back, but thinking about it, when this texting episode took place. "I hope you get divorced soon," she texted to him. "I hope you get your power turned back on, sweet so and so (her first and middle name)." We were in the middle of a hurricane at the time. How interesting. A tsunami is more like it. An emotional tsunami.
I calmly told him I was reading along while they texted. I could not raise my voice as I had a house full of hurricane evacuees sleeping! My senile mother in law, his brother, and my good friend. It took all my patience and fortitude to remain calm. I was in shock. Who was this man I was married to? I did not know him. A duplicitious liar. Yes, a cake eater.
Next day after most of the hurricane guests went home, he came home at lunchtime and said "It is over. You made it easy for me to end it." You see, I had texted after he signed off and she was still on her phone, "Sorry, no divorce, sleeping with my wife." I enjoyed that response I wrote and then clicked off the IPad. He did not hear about that until next day and she called him and said and I apologize for this language, "[censored] You!!" Hmm..why would she get so angry if they had no "relationship?" Exactly."you met my kids," she screamed at him, he told me, only recently. Sounds like a relationship to me. He lied to OW and he lied to me. Cake eater. I went back to my apartment and was in shock still from all of it. I should have gone straight back to the mediator and continued divorce proceedings. In hindsight. Why didn't I? That is the million dollar question. I thought about it and was quite depressed. What Had I done returning home? Nothing had "changed" as he so often pointed out. "I still work..."
All because I had had a divine intervention and asked to come back home that Sept. The hurricane happened in late October. She was out here for Halloween when I was not at karaoke bar job, (we had a business together, he and I for 12 years), she was there with bells on. Of course he failed to mention her there. I moved home in November and am still here. I recently found out after more necessary snooping after he spoke to her last week at bar, that he did in fact see her many more times last summer and took her to a very nice concert for her birthday. When I asked what he gave her, he denied any present. But here is the credit card statement which says differently. He lied about that too. He stand firmly in his position (with much backing from "friends" and a few brothers of his and my sisters!), that he was "single" because we were "getting divorced." Uh, no. We were still married and I lived for only a month in next town at a small apartment. I was home from April to August with a broken foot.He did not want a divorce. But I was all out of love units. he ignored my pleas to get out of karaoke business at bars. Enough. He did not. He was sooo distraught about us getting divorced that "I had to do something besides stay home and drink and be sad..." Yes, go get therapy! Go see real friends who will tell you you are doing the wrong thing. he also told our grown sons he was "going to start dating soon..." Uh, looks like he already had started! My son, 35, was appalled at him. He told me and said "why would Dad tell me that? and my wife?" We do not want to hear that. We want you to get back together."
Immature and selfish behavior, to say the least.
Who else knows about OW? to get back to other forum person's question to me: my kids, who are grown, their wife and girlfriend respectively, my Mom, (his Mom has dementia), his normal brothers, my sister in laws,our fiends, our "friends,"and my therapist.
A year later, here we are un healed, un-surviving. I have been in contact the whole year with Dr.Harley, since last September when I had the divine intervention to go home. And been on the radio show now twice alone and once with my husband on June 13th. I will be on this week Thursday or Friday again.
What do I want? I want to be married to someone who does not lie to me. Who can talk without getting angry.Who understands why his wife left after 35 years together. And an affair we never survived 13 years ago that lasted 7 months si still a sore point.A husband who can be trusted to be the same person when I am there as when I am not there with him.
Right now I do not have any of those things. And he is a workoholic to boot. We are 56 years old and not poor. I write fiction books amd a free lance journalist currently unemployed and have sold one book presently and have another ready for Fall release. I will eventually write a book about all of this. I have a lot of material and many women and men who have been betrayed by their spouses, that I know and will be willing to talk about it. A book to help people survive and move on. My husband often says "i just want to live..." Well so do I. So do we all. But lying, being untrustworthy, and unavailable is not living. Unless you want to live alone. Thanks for the time, forum readers!
best, Nell

Your husband says "I just want to live"
The issue at stake is: Does he want to live with you in a partnership where there is care and trust?

If he is unwilling to join you on the path to revovery then the next step is divorce