Is that how Dr. Harley advises? That a betrayed husband reclaims his wife? He talks about partnership, not ownership. He's been clear that just compensation isn't the WS gives BS whatever they want.

I am recalling what I have read from well respected MB posters have said.

Now that you had your question would you care to take on the questions that I raised?

I am recalling what I've heard Dr. Harley say on his radio show. What I wrote is the answer to "should a WW do... even if she isn't in enthusiastic agreement?"

The answer is "no."

Perhaps one thinks she should be in enthusiastic agreement to "take one for the team," and she's wrong for not agreeing. That's a disrespectful judgement.


Now, if the husband doesn't like "no," he can separate, but not use the pressure of obligation, guilt, or disrespect to try to make her do whatever it is.

p.s. I feel we may be going off-thread, here, so I'd be willing to discuss this in the "Other Topics" forum, but not any more on Gamma's thread.

Why did you bother to make this post?

All you did was rehash what you said before. I understood what you said then. Nothing new was accomplished. Except that you avoided addressing things I brought up. These things are meaningful to Gamma. Because him seeing them discussed he can find new ways to look at things and move forward.

This is not a black and white yes or no issue.

Things will have to weighed out to come to a good decision.

Affairs can not be undone. A balance has to be found for the recovery to be finished. Gamma and Mrs Gamma have dug their heels in and will not find away to meet each other half way.

Is oral a turn off for her?
Does oral force her to remember her affairs?
Is she that grossed out by oral?
Is she turned off by oral?
***EDIT***

Gamma needs the truth.

Gamma confuses wanting oral and needing oral.

Which does Gamma want the most oral or the truth?

I think Gamma is not using the need for the truth so he can forget and leave the affairs in the past.

I think he is using it to get SF back on track which is the wrong way.

He refuses to contact Dr Harley, because the Dr will call him out on this.

I don't view it that I was avoiding your questions, I honestly believe I was answering them, at least the general ones. The ones for Gamma, I can't answer.

I believe it is a black or white issue regarding using Lovebusters to get what one wants, if the goal is a mutually fulfilling marriage.

SC,

If she has said that they never had sex, and she has said that they did not have an "emotional affair", could you please explain what happened 20 years ago when they were working together, that makes you define the relationship as an affair? What happened? Did they go out on dates? Did they spend a lot of time together having coffee and lunches? Was the whole office where they worked talking about the fact that they went around together?

They went to lunch together constantly for a year or better, she was at his house, met his Mother, was in his bed room. We also went out on a to lunch in Chinatown on Sat., W, me and OM cute I paid. The place where they worked was large and mostly empty very few co-workers.

My W came to me one day completely devestated said she feels nothing for me and didn't think she could ever feel any thing for me again, because she had fallen in love with OM2. The more likely story is that OM2 ended it with W because of GF2 and my W decided to try again with me.

And she never again was the same with me, perhaps my never trusting her and the fear it created in me did not help either.

When the woman you describe as GF1 says that she was dumped for your girlfriend, what does she mean? I get the "dumped" part, but what happened after that to make GF1 say that your girlfriend was the reason?

This was related to me by my W with OM present, OM then said that his GF1 was an idiot, I never met the GF1 only know her first name.

God Bless
Gamma

LL,

HPV is linked to to throat and mouth cancers. Regardless, her giving you some logical reasons for why she doesn't want to do OS is what has prompted you to bringing up this past relationship that was not an affair for either party as if it were an affair?

And also genital and anal cancers, so a WW who kissed an OM with HPV could give her BH penile cancer by giving him oral. Although the probability might be low.

AGAIN THIS IS NOT ABOUT ORAL!

God Bless
Gamma

Was this before or after the wedding? If it was before, were you engaged at the time?

SC,

Before the wedding, don't remember if we were engaged or not, but to my thinking completely irrelevant, OM2 knew who I was and was a former coworker.

I understand their attraction, I understand that I had abandoned W emotionally, because I had started working long hours to build a career for myself and provide for my future W, I gained weight going from a brutal physical job to white collar work.

God Bless
Gamma

Did you think of their involvement as being an affair at the time (before she confessed her feelings about him, when they were spending all that time together) or did you see them as being just good friends?

Given that she told you before you were married, and possibly before you were engaged, that she had fallen in love with OM and had no feelings for you, why did you marry her? How did you feel when she told you? Did you break up for a while over this?

What did she say to you later, if anything, to make you feel that she was not still in love with OM and wanted to marry you? Did she ever tell you, after she confessed her feelings about him, that she loved you? Did you appear to fall back in love with each other and to want strongly to be together? Did she seem excited to be marrying you? (Was she pregnant when she married you?)

I am not telling you off for marrying her. I am trying to find out what was in your mind at the time to make you think that, despite the fact she told you she was in love with someone else, you wanted to marry each other.

SC,

Did you think of their involvement as being an affair at the time (before she confessed her feelings about him, when they were spending all that time together) or did you see them as being just good friends?

No I did not see it as an affair, although it bothered me a great deal. At the time I felt trapped as I had to establish a career and I hated having to leave my GF behind at my former company. I certainly did not have an understanding at that time of emotional affairs.

Given that she told you before you were married, and possibly before you were engaged, that she had fallen in love with OM and had no feelings for you, why did you marry her? How did you feel when she told you? Did you break up for a while over this?

I went numb, and at the time I felt that having my GF cheat on me was a risk inherent in having a very beautiful GF.

I had also become accustomed to large numbers of people hitting on my W. They were serious competition Drs, lawyers and I was a kid just starting out, so at the time I would have said something like "I'm surprised it only happened once or twice"

We did not break up over this, most likely because she told me this when OM2 & her had ended, so in a sense I was her rebound relationship, and she felt I had better long term prospects even if I wasn't as handsome as OM2.

What did she say to you later, if anything, to make you feel that she was not still in love with OM and wanted to marry you? Did she ever tell you, after she confessed her feelings about him, that she loved you? Did you appear to fall back in love with each other and to want strongly to be together? Did she seem excited to be marrying you? (Was she pregnant when she married you?)

I stupidly did not ask about OM2 again until many years later.

I think we just recovered gradually, and I was working so much I hadn't the time to notice, and I went into denial.

Looking at our wedding photos now I see that W did not look overjoyed, no not pregnant. Possibly the shame she felt about OM2 was a contributing factor in her marrying me.

God Bless
Gamma

Update gamma?

TheRoad,

Was going to update after I had spoken with OM2, as I don't expect any more admissions from my W. The topics had also been well covered in this thread.

Now it's a matter of patience and working through the different options and approaches.

Road have you been able to get anything more out of your W?

God Bless
Gamma

No.

TheRoad,

Do you have a medium/long term plan about what to do about your Ws silence?

Are their witnesses to the affair you can contact? Have you searched for keepsakes from the affair, letters etc.

God Bless
Gamma

No. The last time wife said next time I bring it up she is out the door. Not willing to call her bluff.

She see's that I refuse to ignore the elephant in the room. Though she choses to act as there is no elephant.






No physical evidence.

Her parents and sisters know in general though not to the specifics questioning would lead me to ask as info is revealed. They would not talk to me about it. They are loyal to her and would only want to protect her.

There was a friend that she met him through. Same for her friend protecting her. Again she would not know as much as my wife. Which would leave me wanting.

TheRoad,

No physical evidence.

Have you checked? I recall you said something about a piece of jewelry she kept as a reminder of her lost love. She might have saved away a letter from OM or his address.

After I blundered into MB a few years ago and my W became happier with our marriage, she threw our an address of a man she visited in another state quite awhile ago, which I pulled out of the trash.

Her parents and sisters know in general though not to the specifics questioning would lead me to ask as info is revealed. They would not talk to me about it. They are loyal to her and would only want to protect her.

There was a friend that she met him through. Same for her friend protecting her. Again she would not know as much as my wife. Which would leave me wanting.

Are these people who knew about the affair and supported it, still in your WWs life? How do you suffer that?

I know this is very common, but these people along with OM know more about some aspects of your marriage than you do. It's like a bond of mutual sin.

God Bless
Gamma

You have a good memory. Jewelry gone. If there was anything around it's gone now.

Wife's best friend is gone ever since we got back together. Except when child 1# was about 4 she ran into BF. BF mom at that time lived across the street one house over from wife's child hood home and her parents still live there. BF family long gone from the block.

Wife and friend had a young child each and restarted their friendship. I refused to participate. My wife said along the lines what happened in the past was past. How her friend had also moved forward. When we got back together wife was asked how she met OM she told me through BF. So that set off the alarm when wife wanted to have contact with her friend. Wife said you are not going to say who my friends are going to be. I said there only can be NC with her friend and me. Wife asked why? Because BF put you and the OM together. Wife tried to down play that. I held to NC, This was pre MB, cell, PC days. Wife told me after 6 months, a year, the friendship ended for the 2nd time. During this reconnect time Wife pointed out how nice she was to child 1 and bought him a gift. She tried to get me on board on with being friends.

Wife told me after 6 months, a year, the friendship ended. I asked why. Wife got uncomfortable body language and words came out awkward. Damage control mode. Wife said BF would not be friends with her and child 1 because I would not accept her BF.

I asked wife did you tell her BF the reason I wanted NC was because the OM was a friend of her's and her husband and they set her up with the OM. Wife danced around that one. She was sad at the loss of her BF from her child hood into adult hood.

Her sisters where kids. I doubt they encouraged her. Her mom told her dating the OM was wrong we were separated but still married.

So I would not call it a mutual bond of sin.

So asking her sisters would not get the details I would need. Think that they would not talk about it because they would not tell what little that they know because they want to protect their sister. Same for their mom. You can not blame them.

I doubt her friend would talk to me. How much does she remember about my wife and the OM? Or remember about the time they restarted the friendship, how it began and how and why the friendship ended for the 2nd time.

The few times I got trickle truthed.

The last time the questions started to cause conflicts because they were losing their generalness creeping to details. Along with wife being asked why does the answer you gave me the last time to not match the answer this time. Caused wife to refuse to talk about the affair any more. Such as how she met her OM.

When the friendship restarted I brought up how wife told me her BF and her husband had a barbecue/party at their house. Invited friends over. OM was the only guy there without a date and wife was the only girl there alone. They hung out together as couples. This is why I will not see them.

So then my wife then changed to OM was not really in their circle of friends. OM and her did not mix with BF and her husband.

Gut says the first story may or may not be true.

Gut knows that the second version was damage control to salvage her restarted friendship. Gut says everything has been damage control and trickle truthing.



If wife would tell me the whole story today how would I know that I got the whole truth now?

TheRoad,

You have a good memory. Jewelry gone. If there was anything around it's gone now.

How long did it take for her to get rid of it.

When we got back together wife was asked how she met OM she told me through BF.

I would contact that BF, perhaps you can do it anonymously or posing as your wife, or posing as some other male.

During this reconnect time Wife pointed out how nice she was to child 1 and bought him a gift. She tried to get me on board on with being friends.

Funny how the witnesses to affairs seem to have their own kind of guilt, a woman, I think my W confessed to, offered to let us use their beach home, and was very strange around me.

Wife told me after 6 months, a year, the friendship ended. I asked why. Wife got uncomfortable body language and words came out awkward. Damage control mode.

BF might have started an affair with OM crushing your W?

Her mom told her dating the OM was wrong we were separated but still married......her sisters would not get the details I would need.

Do you still see these people and how do you stand that they know and you don't. I know in my Ws family everyone except my MIL knew for years and years and I occasionally have discussions with my W about telling MIL the whole story, as I feel bad for MIL.

I doubt her friend would talk to me. How much does she remember about my wife and the OM? Or remember about the time they restarted the friendship, how it began and how and why the friendship ended for the 2nd time.

Perhaps at the least the OMs name, does BF have a facebook could be OM is on it?

So then my wife then changed to OM was not really in their circle of friends. OM and her did not mix with BF and her husband.

This drift is not that uncommon, one of the coworkers of OM2 worked with my W for perhaps a year, the story from my W changed to that she only worked with him for a week! My W adored him as well, but if anything happened with him I suspect it was a ONS.

If wife would tell me the whole story today how would I know that I got the whole truth now?

You don't even have the basic facts, who, what, where, when,why and how.

Neither do I and I see this resolving in a few ways.

-OM2 spills, when I go to speak with him
-When I speak with some of the other witnesses
-W spills spontaneously, she seemed on the verge a few times
-W spills after we separate, or to prevent a divorce

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

You're looking for answers in the wrong places. You use manipulative and dishonest tactics in an attempt to get what you want without considering what damage it does to others, and even advise someone else to use dishonesty if they "have" to. The answer is to drop using these tactics. Women usually don't fall in love with a man that consistently has a trick up their sleeve.

It seems to me that you want your wife to be in love with you, so work on being and behaving like someone she would fall in love with, and if she's meeting your needs and not engaging in Lovebusters, allow yourself to fall in love with her. It appears that there's always some reason you have to not integrate with her, and she's not oblivious to this.

The answer you seek is in how you behave, how you treat her, how you approach her, whether you're providing an environment of care, not in some premarital relationship she had with someone else.