Hi there,
I happened across Dr. Harley's theories last night and have been reading them avidly ever since. Even better, I'm glad to see such an active forum.

My wife and I are having problems. She suffers from a form of depression that's still struggling to be diagnosed, but seems to blend elements of bipolar, BPD, and clinical depression. She is seeing a psychiatrist who is trying to treat it and she always takes her meds on time. She wants to be better. But she has been depressed for many years, and in a particularly dark place for the last 6-12 months.

She has been feeling low for a long period now but we have been very happy in the past (I think). Although she is low I try to be affectionate as much as I can, because I know she needs that; and I always take her feelings into account when making decisions although sometimes I may misjudge, or we miscommunicate, and a problem occurs. Lately there have been more and more problems. Also she can on occasion be quite disrespectful, and level unfair judgements at me; which with the help of this site, I have determined is one of the main things I want in a relationship (to feel respected and wanted). I find it especially difficult because I feel I am understanding, and try to always give her the benefit of the doubt and assume the BEST of her, whereas when she is in a dark place, she assumes the worst of me and gives me no benefit of the doubt at all.

Things came to a head a few weeks ago when she went out to some bars with her mostly female friends, whom I know and am fine with. I try to be encouraging if she wants to go out because it does help her and distracts her from the darkness for a while. But when she came home late and I felt her get into bed, I had a bad gut feeling. I snooped, and checked her email in the morning; and lo and behold she had been messaging another man begging him to come and pick her up and do things to her. The crushing feeling I felt is almost indescribable, which I now understand is because my biggest emotional want is respect and to be wanted, and it struck against that in a big way. I am proud of myself for confronting her immediately on the subject, taking the day off work as a result, instead of swallowing it down and going to work anyway. We talked and she said that she didn't feel herself last night, was drunk, and didn't know what she was doing but felt she wanted to get away and be someone else because she is so unhappy and unfulfilled in our relationship.

This is obviously hard to take, considering I feel that I try hard to fulfil her wants and needs and get little back in return, but deal with it because it can be chalked up to the depression making her feel bleak.

We talked about this afterward, and I tried to come to terms with the betrayal (as nothing physical actually happened, though not for lack of trying on her part) though it still stings me now to think about it. But I do not want to dwell as I know only pain will come from it. We talked some more and she said she feels there is nothing between us anymore and as an example she feels no affection from me. This I also found difficult, because I feel I express affection for her all the time, and she is simply not receptive of it. But I appreciate that perhaps in her dark place the things I am doing are not obvious to her, and she gave me some ideas as to how I could give her pointers as well, how to indirectly say "Look, here's this nice thing I did for you, because I care".

Things have been rocky since then, but I've been trying. We have had other issues, for example her wanting to get a tattoo as a way to emotionally deal with her dead father, something I was conflicted about because I supported her trying to move on emotionally from the turmoil with her father, but was staunchly against because I despised tattoos. We argued a few times over it, me worried that I would resent her for doing it when I expressed I did not want her to because I felt it reflected her becoming a person different to the one that entered the marriage with me (and felt that I very rarely have ever had to ask her not to do things on my behalf), her steadily growing resentful because it's something she felt she just had to do. Eventually one night I hit upon a site online where a woman in a similar position explained the depth of feeling about her tattoo, that helped me to understand the whole tattoo thing in context, and be OK with it. I stayed up reading until 3am, cried with joy of finally understanding and feeling of passing a milestone. I showed my wife in the morning, whereupon she too cried and said the woman had written everything that my wife felt but couldn't express. The tattoo thing is now water under the bridge and I have even come to like the result.

But what concerns me is that things have not improved since. I feel that "Tattoogate" is a big marker of how willing I am to fight to make this marriage work through the black veil of depression/mental illness. But my wife continues to slip, and spent two of the last three nights out at the local bar, eventually coming to another head when we talked after she got home last night and she explained she was still deeply unhappy and felt nothing toward me (or our family) anymore. She didn't want to be here. She feels trapped and despairs that "this is all our lives are".

It's tragic, but I have of late built myself an emotional wall in case of this kind of event. I felt I could look at it from a pragmatic viewpoint, and explained to her that I want her to be happy, and I am almost prepared to move on if she decides the only way she can be happy is leaving us. But I also expressed that I don't think it will make her happy, because her depression is such a major part of herself at the moment that her unhappiness is simply negatively reinforced: at home with the family there are no distractions and so she starts to feel low - when she is out at the bar she is being social and is distracted from her own head for a while. Then she comes home and, free of distractions, begins to feel low again. Eventually home = sadness, and then we are lost.

I found this site last night, and stayed up late reading again. It spoke a lot of truth to me, and again I showed it to my wife in the morning, and it spoke a lot of truth to her too. I tried to get us to fill out the "Emotional Needs" questionnaire tonight. I filled it out, but she struggled. She has always struggled with trying to express her feelings. We went through mine together, which was therapeutic for me, because I finally expressed some issues that have been bugging me for a very long time (disrespect, not feeling wanted, etc). She managed to talk about herself a little too, and effectively said that every category is equally important to her and every category she feels unfulfilled and sad and resentful that it is not filled. My affectionate gestures are noticed but do not make her happy; my domestic chores are appreciated but not worth anything; she does not want to do anything recreational with me because she finds me boring and would rather be out with friends. I have been trying to get her interested in things we have enjoyed in the past, but she just doesn't want to know. Previously I have chalked this up to depression, too. But she CAN be happy sharing recreational time with other people, out at the bar... Problem is that I find it very hard to simply join her at the bar (which she has said she would like me to) because she is SUCH a different person when in the company of others that I can't help but feel hurt and resentful that I am such a poor husband that she can only be happy around people besides me. I am also concerned because she becomes quite outgoing and boisterous and enjoys the company of men (which she has said she always has preferred to women, though she has many female friends and few if any true male friends) which makes me feel threatened, (especially after the recent betrayal) even if we are out together. She wanted to leave and wanted to try a separation, even if it was she sleeping in the spare bedroom. I protested because I don't think this will help - we won't be dealing with the actual issue, which is that we don't associate each other with happiness anymore. Increasing that distance is a dangerous gamble: either she realises how much she loves me and our life and comes running back with open arms, or she gets to experience "what she could have won" and spends more time enjoying the "being elsewhere" without giving the "being here" a fair chance!

She was receptive to the idea of trying to find something new to do that we can share and enjoy, and we're going to go through the big list of ideas another time. But she feels no positivity toward our lives at the moment, feels trapped, and doesn't feel much like working at it. But I know that we have been happy before, because we got together and got married in the first place; and we can again, if only we both work a little at it. BUT - how much do you chalk up to depression? It's all well and good Dr. Harley saying that you treat the depression first and then the marital issues, but the two are heavily intertwined, and treatment of depression can take months or years, meanwhile my wife (and myself to a degree) is critically unhappy and although she accepts part of it is down to her illness, also can't escape the feeling or deny it. We have to work at it now, even though the odds are stacked against us, or else we may never be able to work at it.

In the interests of being honest, part of me wants to fight for this and win this back because I want our happy family life back - but part of me wonders whether things would be better off apart. I don't want to be with anyone else, and I can't bear the thought of her being with anyone else, but I also don't want to continue this ridiculous unhappiness. I am emotionally self sufficient, I think, and could survive on my own, and am almost ready to make that leap if she were to decide to leave (the "perhaps I would be better off" angle). But it would be better for all of us if she stayed and we worked things out, I believe.


Argh, I don't know. There's a braindump for you. I'm not sure what I expect to get out of this post, or exactly what I need help with. But there it is. Thanks for being there to vent to.

Your wife has had an affair and I would bet more than one. Please ask the mods to move this to Surviving an Affair forum where the experts can help.

Thanks for your input.
I'd rather not move it to the affair forum because I don't think that's the full picture. But I am concerned about future affairs.
Particularly because she has mentioned a new man she has spoken to over the weekend, a husband of one of her friends (who she spoke to in the presence of his wife, her friend), who suffers from the same depression she does. She felt they really connected and could help each other deal with the issues, and I have nothing to worry about, because he's 30 years her senior and married and she doesn't find him at all attractive.

Strangely that doesn't stop me from worrying, especially after reading this site, and the realisation that "love" just comes from somebody else making you feel good enough times. I am incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of her sharing an intimate part of herself with another man, but she's stated that I can't truly understand her because I have not myself been depressed. Her psychiatrist has advised not to get any counseling until her new medication has had a chance to take effect, but I think in this context she would probably advise professsional counseling, rather than just getting amateur counseling with someone that could threaten the marriage... Argh.

Venturi,

Welcome to MB. Sorry for the things that have brought you here.

That really was a braindump and a lot to absorb.

In a nutshell ...

- your W has a mental illness
- in your recent past there is evidence of affair behavior
- she's telling you she's happier outside the marriage and that all the problems of her depression are related to you.

It is very important you rule out an affair #1. We can't give you solid guidance on recovering the marriage until we know there is no OM in the picture.

If there is an affair our advice for you changes.

You will need to snoop steathly. There are lots of options for you to find out what's going on while you're away from each other.

Thanks again.
I don't think there is an affair right now. Having done some snooping (which I hate myself for doing) I can find no evidence of something happening as we speak, and she literally doesn't have the time for anything physical to happen, apart from these bar outings which have realistically only been a few occasions so far.
But I think she is incredibly vulnerable to one, and I've taken steps - I contacted the guy she wrote to in her original infidelity-outreach and explained the situation and he was understanding and mature about it, he didn't want to jeapordise our relationship as he had been on the reverse of a similar thing. I have also written to her tattoo artist as I notice she has had conversations with him as a friend as well as as a client; I know that tattoo-ees can feel connections with their tattoo-er and it doesn't help that he's a young somewhat attractive guy who is himself tattoo'd (something she has said she finds attractive when we spoke about it in our past, not specifically about him). I am fairly confident I wrote it in such a way that he will want to help me (and US) out, and from what I read of their exchanges so far, he doesn't seem to be hugely into her or anything.

I really hate snooping like this, but I suppose it is not unfounded.

Hi Venturi, welcome to Marriage Builders. I don't have time to read that long post, but I predict there are lots of affairs in her past and more coming based on this comment above. When a spouse goes catting around like a single person and she is married to an ENABLER, guess what happens? Just like single people they hook up. And that is probably why you are here. I have seen it hundreds of times over the years. I don't even have to read to know she has had an affair. Your wife has poor boundaries around men and you enable her in that marriage wrecking behavior. You and your wife have poor boundaries around members of the opposite sex, hence multiple affairs. And it will stay like that until this changes.

I read also that your wife is depressed. Do you know that is a classic trait of adulterers? Most especially women. Women's happiness is usually very contingent on their marriages and she has checked out of the marriage. There is nothing there for her other than a complacent husband who enables her. I am sorry to be so harsh, but your wife has serious problems and I view your lack of action as one of the culprits. And I have no doubt that is only part of the cause, but depression is one of the easiest mental problems to resolve. If she found another doctor, cleaned up her life and worked on her marriage, she might have a chance.

The biggest problem in your marriage is your wife's affairs and your enabling behavior. On that basis, I would get this moved to the Surviving an Affair forum so we can help you save your marriage.

Also, you might get more help if you can cut that initial post down to 4-5 short paragraphs. It is hard to understand your story with all that excessive information.

Thankyou.
I don't think you're quite fair in that post though that is partly my fault for perhaps poorly explaining.
The going out stuff has literally only happened this weekend, and the one night a few weeks ago when the attempted infidelity happened.

All her friends are married with kids (and older than us) and we live in a very small village where the local bar and pub is hardly a mixing pot of fresh young things to tempt her.

I don't intend to be an enabler, and it has always been understood and a core foundation of our relationship that infidelity is unacceptable because we have both suffered in the past. I have tried outlining that we need to remove the positive reinforcement from other people and try to adjust so that it is us being together that is the positive force, but she didn't take it well, feeling resentful that I am denying her a source of happiness (as I would if she asked me to stop working on my car, or visiting the cinema. But I asked and apparently there is no hobby or activity that I do which bothers her).

My wife's depression has been around for a long time and I don't see my position as a "lack of action", in fact I think I have been a driving force in trying to get her help, trying to work her through the dark patches: we just need to make it to the next doctor visit, the next psych visit, the next dosage adjustment, etc. It's not easy to resolve. We have been fighting it in the wings for most of our marriage and now center stage for the last 6-12 months.

I am concerned with moving to the affair forum because there seems to be much negativity there toward marriages... Having just glanced through it now I have seen many people (rightly or wrongly) tell a poster that it's over, lost, gone, time to lawyer up and for God's sake don't let her take the kids. There doesn't seem to be much "surviving" in there apart from starting a life on your own. I don't want that, but equally, even just reading a few posts has started me thinking perhaps it would be better to cut my losses and move on. I can cope on my own, and in a way I have been doing so for quite some time.

I'm sorry for the long opening post, I will try to distill it down tomorrow.

Venturi, you are not reading in the right places, then. There are hundreds of saved marriages over there. [mine included] You are just reading the ones that couldn't be saved. You will get the best help there in saving your marriage.

And while she might have only gone out catting around this weekend, I would just point out how destructive it is for married people to hang out in bars without their spouses. But you have learned that already. If your spouse suggests doing something that is destructive to your marriage, it is real important that you don't go along with it. "Encouraging" her comes across as complacence. And I GET you might not have known that, but you do now. And you also know that opposite sex friendships are dangerous to marriages. Right?

I would encourage you to have this moved to SAA. The posters there have to give you advice that is in line with Marriage Builders. Which means following Plan A and Plan B. We can help you do that in order to save your marriage.

I think if you take action now, you have a great chance at having a great marriage.

Is she an alcoholic?

She's not an alcoholic but does feel a release with alcohol - common in depressives. She recognised it was a serious factor in the last infidelity and promised not to drink again (when in the throes of genuine regret). I said I didn't mind her drinking as long as it was in a "safe" environment IE with me or with female friends that we both know. Obviously this has gone downhill.

Worrying update. She was out this evening at her female friend's house to get some head space and talk. I can understand this.
However she's just come home and said that she was there for a while but then went to tattoo guy's house where they sat and talked. (I don't think tattoo guy had enough time to read my message before she was there this evening).

When she came in and told me, I outlined that friendship with men at the moment is completely unnacceptable and inappropriate. She did not see why, and when I explained that it was a huge risk to our future recovery and a risk for a true affair to develop, said she was done talking for the evening and going to sleep in the spare room. I don't think she did anytihng this evening but perhaps I am delusional. Off to the affair forum we go.

I explained that I want us to work at the relationship and fix things but she said she doesn't see the point when it is so unhappy.

Where do I go from here? I can't make "demands" or instigate "plans" because at the moment it seems she genuinely doesn't care. How do you manage to guide your spouse toward change when they don't want to, while simultaneously feeling jilted and every attempt to fix things is dismissed as unimportant? Time to pack up and go?

edit: I want to stress I understand change is required from both parties, and I have told her several times I am very willing to do anything and everything to fix the marriage and she need only let me know what I can do. She doesn't know, and has lost sight for it altogether I think.

Maybe it's time to pack up and go.

Thanks for answering my question about her drinking, that makes sense what you say. I know now what is going on. Your wife is having an affair.


"Space" is code talk for wanting to get away to meet her affair partner. That is where she is going when she leaves.

Here is what we need you to do. Lie low and start snooping like a bloodhound. Stop asking her if she is having an affair and stop talking about your relationship. Act like life is just wonderful!

QUIETLY get the evidence of the affair and come back here. We will give you next steps. Our goal is to help you save your marriage, keep that in mind. But you have to be STRATEGIC right now. You must be like James Bond.

Can you do this?

I suppose so, though I feel pretty unenthusiastic right now, having had all my thoughts about being better off without her quite nicely reinforced.

What happens if there is no actual affair or even emotional affair or "connection" yet? What if she is going away in an attempt to start something, but there's not actually anything to catch (yet)? Obviusly I would rather nothing actually happens in the first place.

I somewhat think that I can't be bothered with the whole thing and just want her gone if it's going to be so much work and my trust in her so fundamentally eroded. At the momment I am just thinking that should things not see a glimmer of hope, that the kids should be with me and not her, unstable and lost as she is.

It will be much more work to start over with someone NEW who won't be the parent of your children. You have to make the choice, of course, but I will just tell you 2 things:

1. she is having an affair

2. you can have a wonderful, trusting marriage in the future if you follow our steps. We can make this worth your while

Thankyou for your support, Melody.
I have had a response from Tattoo Guy to my earlier contact. I feel confident that he himself is not going to instigate a deeper affair - at least right now. He has dealt with rough separation before including children caught in the middle. However that's not to say I believe nothing will ever happen - after all, people can't help it.

I am asking that you put aside all preformed beliefs and only go by hard facts. If you are dealing with an affair many things will be said in order to gaslight you and throw you off the scent.

Ignore everything you have been told and only observe ACTIONS. Start snooping, put a keylogger on her computer, spyware on her phone, a VAR and a GPS in her car. Do what you need to do to quietly get the goods and then come back here.

I'm really not concerned that she is CURRENTLY having an affair but I do fear that one will develop unless she lets me in again.
To her credit she did send me a message that she was going to go to Tattoo Guy's house, so she didn't conceal that. Surely if there was something going on she would have simply not told me at all, having already established a cover story I would have been happy with (visiting a girlfriend).

I do think she is disillusioned about us as a couple and casting about for some kind of other emotional reinforcement.
I have done a degree of snooping through emails and facebook etc and found nothing incriminating of anything CURRENTLY serious, but I have found leads that may or may not eventually develop, and obviously there is precedent.

What I am saying is, can we skip the James Bond bit of GPS tracking her car and get right to trying to catch the problem before it goes further downhill? Surely spending a period of time trying to uncover evidence of a crime that may not yet have happened is precious time lost, possibly drawing us closer to the actual cheating event itself?

I would error on the side of caution. Verify first making assumptions will be a big mistake.

Venturi, glad to see you made it to SaA. This is the best forum for you right now.

Don't consider snooping 'time lost' - consider it 'time invested'.

I suspect there is much going on with your wife of which you are not aware. I believe it is in the best interest of your marriage and family to get to the bottom of what she is doing.
You have the right to know the truth of your marriage.

And please stop feeling guilty about checking up on her! Your marriage is your most important investment! I've seen posters on here who pay more attention to balancing their checkbooks than they do to confirming the health of their marriage.

Wake Up Venturi.

There was very little "talking" happening.

Are you going to sit there and let her "talk" again?

She is ........................


Do you want to stop it?