I too had a FWW and now we are going on 2 yrs into R after her 1.5yr PA/EA

1) Order SAA and LB's - Today. These will completely open your eyes to realities you have never known

2) Send an email and get on the radio program ASAP

3) Listen to MB radio every day. There are parallel stories weekly that match your situation

4) Expose the holy HECK out of this A

5) Give her hope for a better future - FULLY Implement Plan A

6) Find out what the things that were wrong in your M prior to the A and do YOUR part to make sure they are fully resolved

7) Hold on like HE!! for a wild ride!



These are the things that will give you the best odds to turn the tide.

This is excellent advice! So true.

Hi guys. I see some great posts in the last few hours, and I will look at them once I've written about my last conversation with my wife. I want you to know that my instinct right now is to go away and read more literature and try to reason my way into believing/understanding one thing or another, BUT I accept that is a FAILING of mine right now so I will just report the facts as best I remember them, and try not to theorise and draw conclusions.

We sat down and talked once the children were put to bed. I was inclined to let her start first because part of me wanted to hear if she had made any internal progress in the last day. But I resisted and decided to speak first.

- I told her that something is going on between her and Tattooguy, or if not him then somebody else. And things cannot be mended or even properly dealt with until there is no more contact with him, permanently. We should draft a letter (or Facebook message) together that cements this.
- She said she has not spoken to him since she was at his house.
- I said there is a difference between not speaking, and doing something to cement that you will not speak.
- She doesn't want to.
- Then nothing can be dealt with or discussed properly until it does. I want her to be happy, and to build a happy, safe marriage together where we can be in love again.
- She doesn't want that. She wasn't sure about us before, but wanted time apart from the negativity, to give it a chance. But my actions have made her loathe me, and she feels any potential for recovery is lost. She thinks I am despicable and utterly unforgivable for involving the children in this and if we were going to tell them at all, we should have discussed it and done it together. She says our eldest was in tears today worried that mummy didn't want him any more; and that he asked if he could see a friend, because he was sad and needed to speak to a friend. And that these are unacceptable things for a 5 year old to have to deal with.
- I said I have told them nothing but the truth about everything, and the truth is what has hurt them.
- She feels that we should have dealt with it together.

A lot more back-and-forth happened here about the children that I can't remember clearly but it was along the same lines. I stuck to my guns that I only told them what is currently happening, and the events are what upset them; she attesting that me telling them is what upset them and I have no right to drag them into this. If we had talked to them together about it we would have had to put her spin on the situation because she would not accept me simply telling them the current state of affairs (poor choice of words) in an attempt to minimise the importance of it.

- I said ultimately, in her time of crisis, instead of staying with the female friend she initially visited (who offered her the couch to sleep on should she want it and a shoulder to cry on or total space if she wanted it), she went and visited a male friend who I do not know, and instead slept there. That tells of some kind of emotional attachment.
- She says she went to his house because, at the moment in time where she was feeling she needed to be out of the house, he texted her asking how things had gone with me and if she wanted to stay on the couch. If a female friend had been the one who sent the text at that moment she would have slept on her couch. She attests she did not do anything with him and did not go to him as a shoulder to cry on but as a kind of independent party, and she says they only looked at his art book which she finds amazing, talked about her plans for future tattoos, and looked at comics and discussed them. Then he went upstairs to bed and she slept on the sofa.
- I said I can only ever take her word on that, and I can't do that at the moment. All the circumstance points to it meaning something more, and it is backed up by her deceit about where she was going.
- She said she did not tell me because she knew I would follow her and try to confront her and she did not want that to happen because it would only drive her further away from me. She did it because she wanted space to think, and to be sure that I wouldn't come and confront her and thus oppress her further.

- She does not want to talk now about fixing things and just wants to be practical and put together a plan for separating because after my actions there is no way she can ever trust or love me again.
- I repeated that I DO want to work on things and for her to be happy and us all happy as a family unit together. She needs to take the first step and definitively cut off contact with Tattooguy along with stopping any attempts to make new or develop existing relationships in any Emotional Need areas with anybody else. I asked if she was going to have coffee with Depression Guy (see below) this evening as she had planned.

Depression Guy is a friend's husband who suffers from depression to the extremity that my wife does, but he is making a recovery from it. She has talked with him on one prior occasion to my knowledge, in company of other friends but not with me, where they realised they both suffered from the same illness and formed a plan to discuss it together over coffee. She told me about this as soon as she returned from the pub where the discussion had occurred and seemed enthusiastic with no hint of a desire for secrecy or other dishonesty.

- She said no, she was no longer planning to see him.
- I said I'm glad, because that is another potential marriage risk as she would be willingly putting herself in a situation where an Emotional Need is filled by another man.
- She said but if she was doing that then why wouldn't she immediately break things off with me and simply go to be with this other person right away with no effort to sustain things with me.
- I said because there are still some EN's that are being met by me and can only be met by me right now. Finance, family, domestic.

At this point I went through the full Emotional Needs list and explained what I thought she may be getting from elsewhere and how her actions demonstrated it. I appreciate this may have been a failing of mine but I cannot help but try to appeal to her logic.

-She said these are all well and good, but the argument all falls apart if she actually isn't getting any of those needs met by anyone else including Tattooguy because they didn't do anything apart from fairly inane talk about comics and tattoos.
- I said, but that is one of the Needs; you've opened up a channel with him perhaps while she was having her tattoo done a few weeks ago, and then sought to reinforce it by seeing him again, made worse by it being in a time of crisis and worse FURTHER by staying at his house.


My memory goes fuzzy at this point. Eventually we talk about practical application of what to do in the here and now.
I start by saying that I do still want to love her and want to be together as a family, and if she wants to start on that path, it must start with firm disconnect from Tattooguy forever, and an agreement not to foster new emotional relationships with any other men.
- She accepts what I have said but does not want to do it because she does not want me, let's move on to practicalities.

We will make our way through this weekend making sure the children are happy, because it's our eldest's birthday and we have a party tomorrow afternoon, then a day trip the day after. Her mother (who we both deeply respect and is a great mediator) is coming with us on the day trip, and is staying over that night, by our mutual agreement.
-I said I would like us to talk again with her mother present as she may be able to give us a fair more detached perspective on any issues.
-She said she feels it pointless because it will be the same discussion we have now, but OK. She would like to talk to her alone for a while first, because she doesn't feel she can express herself properly on the phone, and her mother is quite heavily on my side right now (good ego boost for me).
-I don't mind that, and they can spend Saturday evening talking, then go to sleep and we will have a talk the three of us on Sunday, having the children looked after briefly by neighbours or friends.
-She wants to know what we will do for next week, and the short-term.
-I say it must include her sleeping here. If she really must get some space and sleep elsewhere, then somewhere like one of her female friends' houses, who I know are safe places (and will discourage her from affair and certainly not let themselves be used as an alibi).
- She is OK with that but mainly because she doesn't trust me alone with the children.

She will have the children in the daytimes while I am at work. We will have dinner together with them, then we will take alternate days at putting them to bed and then staying home, so the other can go out if they wish. (Normally it is me who puts them to bed almost exclusively)

- She asked if I planned to go out on those evenings because she doesn't feel she can do anything with me in the house.
- I said I probably wouldn't be out that often but am happy to be in the bedroom, I don't need to hang out downstairs in a "shared" area when I am at home.
- She says how long do we do this for, because she will not do it forever and needs her own space away from me.
-I said I would like to try it for a while and see how we get on.
- She is not happy with that and needs a firm amount of time.
- I said, let's try 3 weeks.
(I'm sure I read the figure of 3 weeks recommended somewhere but I may be mistaken. All the stuff I have read about a separation period relies on the wayward spouse wanting the relationship back. At the moment she does not but I suppose that is one purpose of the separation).
- She said what then, she thinks it sensible she stays here with the kids and I move. But moving takes time and it could drag out indefinitely once we pass that 3 week mark.
- I said I would prefer to talk about this in a few days once things have settled a bit.
- She doesn't want to because she needs to know what the future holds. (I may have misremembered that comment but that was the gist).

Some back and forth occurred which I don't fully recall and I ended up giving in.

-I will have a plan in place ready to move out on that 3 week marker if no change has occurred.


I think that was the end of the important stuff, but we talked further, most relevantly about how I make her feel stifled with my paranoia and insecurity about her and men. How I am uncomfortable if she even shares a joke with my best friend and couldn't deal with more than a few minutes of her being alone in his car when we were recently on a driving holiday (we men were driving and had swapped the girls over so that my best friend's partner could take some photos of his car while it was on the move. Both cars are 2-seaters so she could not have stayed in my car while this happened.
- I said I know it is a problem and I can't fix it because it is part of me. But I am much better than I was before we got together, and even in the early days of our relationship, where I felt incredibly uncomfortable if she even went out without me (which was frequently as we obviously lived apart and had different social circles). I had progressed myself to the point where I could not get too anxious about her going out and even bring myself to encourage going out and even having male friends, in spite of my fears; which have recently been found out to be well-founded because she attempted to actually betray me that night a few weeks ago (when I found the messages sent to another man asking him to come get her and do things to her) and now has committed some level of betrayal again with another man who I even encouraged her to see in the first place (I wanted to support her having a tattoo even though that was another huge issue for me).
- She said it is stifling and crushes her.

At this point I really wnated to lash out and to say some hurtful things, so I explained that to her and said I was going to go to bed because hurtful things will not help anything.

And here I am.

So friends, help me. Where am I in the plan right now? What do I need to do next? You don't need to outline it all to me because I've read everything on the site, you can just say "instigate Plan C" or whatever and I'll do the re-reading myself.



Feel things are pretty dark right now. Fighting all my instincts which say I have done the wrong thing.

Why? Doesn't she already know that something is going on? As I've already told you, the goal here is not to win a debate with her (or anyone else) and prove that there is an affair.

Was this something you saw recommended here? I seriously doubt it. Are you following the plan here that works, or are you just doing whatever your instincts tell you and then coming here to tell us about it?

We can't help you if you are so busy talking that you do not listen.

Please buy the book Surviving an Affair immediately and start following the plan in it, if you want to save your marriage.

You had a long lecturing debate with your wife instead of following the plan (which forbids lecturing your wife)!

Are you ready to quit making this up as you go along?

Nearly totally ignoring it.


Get the book Surviving an Affair.

For [censored]'S sake!!


Bought the kindle version of SAA and reading it right now.

I am trying to do what I am told by you guys is the right thing, even when it's something that flies in the face of all my instincts. I also don't have instant reference to (for example) SAA in the middle of a discussion. All of the literature is a series of situations with some similarities to my situation but some differences, and black-and-white instruction when all I can see is grey and all my instincts - and opinions from valued friends and family - tell me it's not quite as simple as the examples.

I WANT to follow the plan and I WANT it to work. But it's also really [censored] hard for me (as I'm sure it is for everybody). So telling me what a [censored] I am at trying to follow it, despite it being a massive effort to even get where I am right now, is really not all that constructive.

I particularly objected to making large decisions (that she was having an affair and it must be stopped) based upon circumstantial evidence that DOES have very plausible non-affair explanations, and then trying to take the negative response to a destructive, disruptive act as proof of the entire thing when in my opinion ANYBODY would have the response (anger!!) that I am supposed to take as PROOF of the affair.


I want to fix things and I think this is the best/only route because it's also one where the teachings have made sense to me and felt like progress could be made. But Jesus it is hard.

Sorry for the profanity. Frustrated.

We already told you what to respond with. Why did you not follow our advice?

Venturi,
Do you think it does any good to talk to an addicted crack head? Will anything you say do any good while they are high?

Whats the first step in helping a addicted crack head?

It's the job of any good coach to make you do things you don't want to do in order to get you the result you want.

We're just doing our job...

But you did have good friends here like SusieQ telling you not to even have such a discussion!


We wouldn't be very good friends if we let you keep following your instincts instead of learning the plan.

Listen!

I didn't want to have a discussion. But I did want to make my viewpoint known, to minimise the ways she can assume the worst of me and cajole herself into permanently labelling me an enemy.

Besides I have to be practical and discuss arrangements with the kids etc for their sake.

Sticking to my guns about breaking up the affair also doesn't win me the direct support of friends and family but instead tell me to be reasonable and based on the evidence it's perfectly possible she is not having any affair. This is also what my gut says, and what she herself says. It's very very different to catching her in bed with another man, for example.

I want help, I want to get through this, please stick with me guys.

I fear you are going to have to actually catch her in bed with him to believe what is clear to most objective by-standers. Some people need that LEVEL of evidence when they are in deep denial. I would make plans to do exactly that. I believe once you catch them in bed together, you will be catapulted right out of your denial and your fog. It is absolutely not "reasonable" to believe that she is not having an affair. No rational person would believe that.

But you should not take my word for it. You should find out where he lives and stake out his place on your own. Or hire a PI and get the goods very quickly.

So don't take my word for it and don't take your "friends" word for it, just find out the truth on your own. That will settle the question. Some guys have to actually SEE the sex act to accept their wife is having an affair. I fear you are one of those rare guys.

I really don't have any more time to give to you today, I don't have much time to post as it is and I already spent too much time here as it is. (and I'm not reading that long post, sorry. Whatever your fogged out crackhead WW said is irrelevant.)

Here goes a quick last post:

~ Accept the fact that you are an enabler and have serious issues with denial. Look back at your first post. To me, it is glaring. You wrote a novel and yet only devoted two sentences to the fact that your WW is having an affair.

When I first discovered my WxH was having an affair, all I had was his phone records and knew that one of the numbers he was calling was a female, nothing more. His denials and gaslighting got him nowhere - I focused like a laser on the fact that he had someone else in the wings.

We will not support you in this endeavor. THe affair needs to end and nothing else will work until you accomplish that first.

~ Stop TALKING and start listening. These long winded posts are a waste of our time.

~Re-read your thread, maybe a couple of times.. When I first landed here, I was so emotional and all over the place that I had to re-read each post I got 3-4 times before it sunk in. I re-read my thread over and over before posting anything and taking any further action, because I knew I was being led by emotion. The people trying to help you are being objective and strategic. You are NOT. Take that into consideration.

You might want to also consider being a little more grateful. When I got here I got maybe 1/10th of the help you are getting and I was so happy to get just that.

I think you are right.

I still can't believe this WW has spent the night at this guy's house and he has even read some of her messages to him telling him what she wants him to do to her and he still is in this deep of a denial.

My sister was in a denial but when she found out her H had spent time at the OW's house it woke her up real quick. Her WH's gaslighting stopped working at that point. Not this guy

Everyone,

I AM very grateful for the help.

I suppose I am resentful because it means accepting something I find is nearly impossible to accept. Resentful of being forced to confront something difficult and feeling it is against everything my gut tells me. Perhaps I was not even ready to attack the issue and perhaps part of me will never be until I catch her physically with somebody else - and perhaps not even then.



Perhaps a miscommunication has occurred early on - the guy she sent messages to that one night some weeks ago, is not Tattoo Guy but someone else entirely who I have seen no evidence of contact with before or since. In the aftermath of being discovered on that one, we shall call him Facebook Guy, she willingly blocked and deleted him and i think also sent a concrete end-contact message to him.

Thats just gas......

Do what you KNOW

not what you FEEL

Have you seen this?
Please Explain Gaslighting

Venturi, let me know when you are ready to face the truth and we can help you. But we can't help you if you won't face the truth. This is all a big waste of time that I certainly can't afford. I have a full time career and a marriage so I don't have the luxury of spending time with someone who is in denial.

I strongly suggest you just stake out tattooguy's house and see them in bed for yourself. That is what it is going to take, I predict. And maybe you won't see that at all. Maybe you will see them sitting on the couch reading scripture and praying to Jesus and then going to separate beds. For your sake, I hope that is what you see.

WE could all be fools who are dead wrong about the affair. This is your chance to prove us wrong!