^^^^^^^ yes this.....

Venturi, you can't 'make your viewpoint' known to an addict. They aren't going to listen to you. They will debunk every comment you make, as you have seen. Not only that, they will take everything you say and skew it to make you look like the bad guy and them the misunderstood spouse. "See?? He NEVER understand my need to blahblahblah!"

This is all fogbabble and isn't worth listening to. I didn't even bother reading all of her comments in your post because they were the ramblings of a fogged-out wayward. I got to the part where she was blabbing about tattoos, of all things, and then skipped forward. Do you not see her fogginess?? For God's sake, man! The woman is blathering about tattoos while she's driving her marriage into the ditch!! Please don't get into any more long-winded discussions with her while she is in this state. They will do you no good.

You have received sterling advice and seem intent upon tweaking a method that works because you don't think it applies to you. Sir, IT DOES. Your sitch is very common. I know it is uniquely painful for you, but we have seen your sitch on this board many, many times before. Same sitch, different posting name.

You need to decide if you are going to commit to this or vacillate.

But PLEASE stop getting into long-winded debates with your wayward spouse. As you have seen, this will accomplish little.

SusieQ, Maritalbliss, and others, I am sorry for how unreceptive I have been.
I am reading SAA right now and trying to figure out a plan for what to do in the next day, week, month. I want to be prepared. I know I have been shooting myself in the foot at every stage. I am hoping that this current small separation will help me to re-focus. I have been envisioning that I am in plan A or have even leapfrogged to plan B BUT I know that is my fog talking and the current here-and-now issues are caused by my wife's fog.

I begin to see I am being gaslit a lot right now, and probably have been for a long time, way before the affair. There is precedent - her father was probably the world's premier gaslighter, and her mother endured the relationship for many years before realising it was him that was crazy and not her.



Please correct me if I am wrong with the below assessment of where I am in some kind of timeline:

- Affair has happened.

- Exposure has happened. I think it has done its job as a disruptor and made it very hard or impossible for them to speak to one another. It may well have fully driven him away from her.

- Aftermath is currently happening. I have an angry, unrepentant, denying wife; gaslighting all over the place. No progress can be made here. Do not have long discussions because they will do no good: she is in no place to discuss things fairly to fix things anyway, and she will gaslight me and I will lose my resolve.
I have mentioned to her already the Carrot (that I am willing to work at things and fix the source of unhappiness etc). Do I re-mention the Carrot a couple of times in this phase? Or should it not be mentioned at all?

- We must wait for the dust to settle a little before anything can happen. I must be patient. Is there a normal timespan for this period, or a time limit? Can't find anything in SAA.

- Once things have died down, which may be some time (is there a way to judge when things are right? Will it be symbolised by her reaching out in some way?), I can offer the carrot. Re-state that I want to work on the marriage and am willing to implement any changes necessary to prevent the circumstance that led to the affair. If she has a positive reaction to it then we start Plan A. What do I do if she has a negative reaction to it? Does that simply mean it's not been a long enough cooling period?




edit:
I'm thinking that if I am to accept that is where I am and gaslighting is going on, then having a discussion with a mediator on Sunday is probably not going to help, am I right? What I've taken from what I've read is that I have to wait for her to make some kind of effort or interest toward the marriage off her own back, as an indicator that she is now in a place to take on board the demand to stop the affair, and appreciate the offer of the Carrot?

Yes she is gaslighting you.

So your plan is to kill the affair. Have you found out where he lives and confront him? Did you expose on OM's side?

Have you seen this'?
"I Encourage BHs to Confront OM" Dr Harley

We are not Dr H.

We do not have to be Dr H to know his material.

We do not have to write books as Dr H.

We do not have to do radio shows as Dr H.

We are people that have learned through many ways from Dr H.

We know MB and how to guide people through MB.

We have not gone through your affair.

We do not need to.

We have been in and seen countless others going through theirs.

We have seen many fail because they thought they knew better.

We have helped many win their war.

Lose.

Have the best shot at wining.

Chose.

You are attempting to wrap this up in a neat, little consecutive kind of deal; here's what I do today, here's what I'll do next week, etc. It doesn't work that way.

You need to kill the affair FIRST. .

Don't move out of your home!!!

Let the others amplify upon that point more than i can.

Why make the Waywards life easier?

Why get out of the way to make affair contacts easier?

Why should You abandon your home?

LTL

No more relationship talk. No more mentioning of EN questionaires, etc. Every time you bring this stuff up you give her a chance to emphatically say she wants out.

Do not move out of your home! Let her know that if she needs to move out, she can but you and kids stay in the home.

You're got to get tough here. TOUGH. You are fighting for your family. She is high on her affair, so trying to talk rationally with her is a waste of time.

Kill the affair. Go after this guy. Find out who his friends and family are and expose to all of them.

Every time you get the chance, remind her that you will not cooperate with a separation and that if someone's going to leave it's her. She needs to see a very ugly picture of separation and divorce to help wake her up to what she's doing.

If you leave her alone with her mother, she's going to gaslight her mom and go on and on about how unhappy she's been and tattoo is just a friend and you are a crazy, paranoid wacko.

She will do everything she can to spin the story.

What kind of married woman goes and sleeps in some other man's house? It's nuts and it's all the evidence you need. Sadly, if it wasn't tattoo man it would be someone else. She's been on the hunt for an affair. She is dangerous to you and the kids.

You've got to take charge of this thing. She is not a partner to you now. She has been taken over by an illness of sorts. No more trying to reason with her.

Hi guys.
Thanks for sticking with me.

I did confront OM before trying the exposure, though I did not accuse him of affair (because it was before the night away) but instead of their friendship being a problem in our relationship, tried to appeal to his better nature. He said he wanted to just help WW and has been through cheating/breakup himself and would never dream of doing anything to hurt our marriage. This exchange happened on the night she spent away; I think BEFORE she left to go and stay with him.

I also confronted the previous OM, Facebook Guy, when that happened. He gave a similar story.

I naively took these men's responses at face value and trusted them and my wife. I realise that was deluding myself and allowing her and them to delude me too. I realise I have a serious problem in spotting when I am ALLOWING myself to be gaslighted or enabling it, but I think this forum is one of the few chances I have of cutting through the crap; if I post up at times when I am unsure. Reading the thread about gaslighting, all the other victims of it said that noticing and coming to terms with it was one of the hardest things they've ever done because it means mistrusting what you have accepted as reality. So please stick with me!

So I need to kill it first - what else can I do. How do I know my efforts have not been enough? She has said that she has lost his friendship and I've ruined his life with my selfish actions, am I justified in taking that as a positive sign, or is that more gas?

I have exposed to his friends and family and have definitely hit a nerve with some of them based on the messages I have received.

I have "confronted" him, kind of, with my contact before all this.
Do I need to do another, different confrontation, specifically accusing an affair?

I will revisit separation tomorrow and tell her I am not moving out and nor are the kids, if she needs to go then she has to do that alone.


Her mum is a very astute person who has had to deal with the realisation she has been gaslit in a major way in her life, and has overcome and built a new life on top of that. I do not think she is easily gassed, and could cut through some of it. She has said to WW before that she thinks WW is not just out to have a good time with friends when she went drinking, but that WW was deluding herself and she was out purely to receive some male attention, which was also what she was doing the night she slept at his house. She's been firmly on my side so far, which has frustrated WW. BUT if you guys still think I should try and stop their discussion, I will do so.

Me again.

I am going to talk to WW approximately 5 hours from the time of this post. Here is what I am going to say and I want you guys to tell me if I am doing anything wrong, I'm trying to follow the plan, and the help you have all offered. I recognise that my instincts and feelings are guiding me the wrong way and allowing me to undermine myself, so I will try to use exact words that you guys have recommended. Here goes:


I have only one thing to say, and I won't be involved in an extended discussion. They are counterproductive at the moment. I don't want a response right now.

The affair must end. There's nothing to discuss until that point. Take steps to positively, and definitively, end it - simply not contacting him is not enough.

I want to build a safe marriage of happiness with you, and not sadness. I want to fix the problems that led us to this point.

I will not co-operate with any separation. If you need to move out you can, but the kids and I will be staying here. If someone's has to leave, it must be you.


And then I will leave, and head to the bedroom.
Have I undermined myself anywhere here? Help me not to.

Have a letter in hand and ask her to write a similar letter that is approved by you. [I will post in the next post] If she wants to discuss anything, just be a broken record: you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST. you must end all contact with the OM FIRST.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Don't leave the room. Just stick with it and be a broken record. Just don't allow her to drag you into any fogbabble discussions because you can't reason with a falling down drunk. That is why simple, direct, repetitive statements are best.

Do this and also find out where the OM lives and pay him a visit. Go tell him to stay away from your wife. Do you have a big buddy you can take with you?

WOW!

I read your thread from the beginning to the end, and all I can say is WOW!

Although I am new here the advice you are getting is sound. The plans work - but you have to follow them to the letter. Its the only way to get the result that you desire.

If you don't want to save your marriage - please adhoc and do your own thing.

I was fortunate to find MarriageBuilders early after discovering my wifes affair. I purchased the course.

This is where my wife was:
1. wanted separation
2. wanted her own home
3. wanted to remain seeing affair partner
4. wanted to bargain remaining friends with affair partner
5. took the affair underground
6. threatened me with divorce if I exposed
7. said taking a polygraph is a joke
8. said the cloths she wore during the times she had sex were more valuable than our marriage (that hurt)

This is where my wife is now:
1. following all EP's
2. wrote NC letter
3. has no more contact with all male friends (some 15 year old friendships) including affair partner
4. all clothing has been thrown away (including jewelry) - yes thrown away not sold
5. polygraph is scheduled for September 27th

I never saw my wife having sex with the POSOM. But any reasonable person would reach that conclusion - and it took time, but my wife admitted a PA.

In the beginning I felt I could talk my way into my wife's heart. If only she would hear my perspective - she would understand. It doesn't work.

Your actions must be swift and precise - like the edge of surgeons scalpel. When there is chaos, you must be calm. Where there is darkness you are the light. When the next step is unknown, you know it.

The books, the advice are your charts to navigate this unknown. Don't squander this opportunity. You only have one shot at it.

I'm not an engineer, but I should have been - I always use the phrase "Don't reinvent the wheel" when I'm rounding with medical students. Their eager minds trying to out-think what many minds have put in place. There is a time and place for innovation. This is neither the time, nor the place. This situation you are in is what we call "high stakes". Where a single mistake has long lasting effects. Where you have only one shot. Where there is no opportunity to do it again. High stakes environments demand the implementation of evidence-based practices. In english, when you only have one opportunity, use a method that has been tested multiple times and has been shown to yield the desired effect. Dr. Harleys plans are the evidence-based practices. The only job you need to do is implement them.

Lastly, MelodyLane might just have hit the nail on the head - you actually may need to see your wife in the middle of intercourse with another man to accept that she had an affair. It's imperative that you accept this fact as quickly as possible - why? If your wife didn't have an affair - what are you doing on this forum? There is really nothing you need to survive - as your wife didn't have an affair.

Now, if you believe that your wife did have an affair - you are in the right place.

Although I am fairly new here I can offer some succinct insight.

1. Buy "Surviving an Affair"
2. Read "Surviving an Affair"

It's a template, step-by-step guide to get you and your family to a point of conclusion (remember - it will either result in repairing your marriage or help speed up a divorce - saving your marriage is not guaranteed)


Best of luck - I'm rooting for team Venturi. Team POSOM can kick rocks!

Bravo good post, everythingcracks!!

Small correction: YOU are in Plan A. SHE is not. Don't mention "Plan A" or "Plan B" to your wife. Both of those are plans that YOU enact alone, unilaterally, for the sake of your marriage.

Thankyou so much for your help Melody and everythingcracks.
Everythingcracks's was particularly helpful (no disrespect meant to you, Melody) in giving me a perspective I felt I needed. Interesting that you mention you should have been an engineer (but are presumably a doctor/surgeon, something along those lines?) I am an engineer myself and you spoke to a part of me that needed to be spoken to. Particularly the part about "high stakes" and evidence-based practices. That is something that makes a whole bunch of sense to me.
Also the part "If she did not have an affair, why are you here? There's no problem." Indeed, if there was truly nothing else, and no suspicion of it then I would never have come here. Very astute.

Look at me babbling on and on when you have all said I should stop talking and start doing (though I can't DO anything particular until the kids are in bed in a few hours). And even now I feel myself wanting to edit Melody's corrected version to remove the word "affair" because I can't accept it. I am still weak and filled with denial, but if I accept and acknowledge my weaknesses I can consciously overcome them. I just had my mum offer to talk about things and I deeply wanted to but turned her down, because I know she will nudge me toward "being reasonable" and at the moment "being reasonable" means letting my feelings guide me and I know they are not guiding me in direction with much chance of success.

I'm waffling again. Sorry.

I'm going to say Melody's version verbatim. If I have a script, I know I will be able to stick to it. I am reassured there are only a few corrections to it. I must be heading on the right track for the plan.


Markos, thankyou. I know I'm not supposed to mention Plan A/B and it is done entirely solo, it was a poor choice of words saying "WE start Plan A".

I enact plan A. Just me, not her, not needing her onboard with it or anything.

One more thought. What if there is more than one OM? I can't guarantee that there isn't. Should any tweaks be made to account for it so she can't think that stopping the affair WITH TATTOOGUY is all that is necessary to fix things? Or, does tweaking it to remove the direct references to tattooguy weaken it? If there is another affair that isn't stopped as a result of this do we simply have to deal with that as it comes, with the same basic procedure?

I am very glad you overcame that temptation. I would call it an affair every time you discuss it with you and just go on the assumption that she did sleep with this guy. If you still have doubts, do like I suggested and go stake out the OM's house. But don't let her see your doubts, because that gives her the wiggle room to continue to deceive you.

Just let her know that you aren't going to tolerate ANY relationships with any men. If she wants to remain married then she needs to stay home and work on the marriage, not run around like a single woman. THAT will lead to divorce.