Ok .. I hope that I am allowed to share the articles in this manner. My wife and I read them and they really hit home. The husbands duty made both my wife and I cry when we read it as I reflected on my failings as a christian husband.

The Husbands Duty
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/husband.html

The Wifes duty
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/wife.html

What really stood out for me was just how much responsibility the bible puts on the husband for the household and his responsibility to his wife. No wonder Dr.Harley advocates such a longer term plan A. We as husbands should be always in plan A.

MNG

I hope I presented the articles properly so everyone who might be interested in biblical roles of husband and wife could get a chance to read them.

In many ways, I believe that if one looks at this idea of roles and think about each spouse having specific needs, it goes along so well with MB.

I also like what he says when he says not to ask "will this marriage work" but to ask yourself "will you work"?

MB is work but it is work that works and there is nothing more rewarding than a marriage that works because we do the work.

I am afraid I just made that confusing but maybe it makes sense.

I am glad you see it! I feel the same way. I had to share these articles. Just to mention ... Do not link this thread to other forum sections. Keep it here. Thanks

MNG

Edit to add: I also feel these articles are biblical versions of Dr.Harleys plan A for both spouses.

If you think about the needs that men typically have - admiration, SF, DS etc. they are in some very basic ways tied to leadership, respect and such.

Women tend to need the "softer?" needs? Affection, family commitment, and then also there is FS. They tend to revolve around helping, nuturing, being led/protected.

I might be reaching but that is how it seems to me. But then H and I are very much in favor of the "Ephesians 5 model."

I see several problems with the article addressed to men. These things do not line up with what Dr. Harley says, and several of them would be disrespectful judgements:

Love = sacrifice. "You can only measure your love by your sacrifice, not your enjoyment." If there is no sacrifice, there is no love.

Husbands are the "Saviour" and "deliverer" of their wives.

A wife's love is in response to her husband's "salvation."

It encourages the husband to see the wife as a sinner that needs to be saved by the husband.

The husband santifies his wife. "That is, to place this woman in a unique category and take her from where she is to where she needs to go ... So that if she's messed up, your job is to fix it up"

"To submit to your husband does not mean you agree with him on everything, it means you recognize his position as head of the household to accomplish God's purposes as it relates to the family ... The job of the head is to give direction to the body. The duty of the wife is to willingly place all of her strengths under the authority of the husband to follow him as he follows Christ."

This goes against POJA.

And this is NOT Biblical submission. Biblical submission lines up with POJA quite well. A wife is to submit to her husband, meaning she does not do anything that he is not enthusiastic about. Likewise, a husband loves his wife as he loves himself, and will not do anything that she is not enthusiastic about.

There is no "guidance" and "direction" by the husband, nor does the wife willingly place herself under the husband's authority.

I agree Prisca. Those parts were not appealing to me either. And the scriptures he uses to describe those particular points are open to interpretation. However that being said, the articles still hold valid points if you are in a christian marriage.

In my case my wife feels I am her "fixer". She has expressed to me on numerous occasions that her sanity is pretty much dependant on my emotional state due to her upbringing somehow (currently seeing a psycologist and my wife has also expressed this to him also).

"Honoring doesn't mean that you agree with her, it doesn't mean that your decision is going to be the decision she wants you to have, We're not talking about control. But to honor her means, �Honey, I gotta make the decision, and I appreciate your feedback. You've given me your thoughts, your ideas, because you're a partner in this relationship and I need to know how you feel about it. And before I make this decision, you give me your feedback because God may be giving you some things that I need to hear. But having heard what you said, I think I gotta go another way. But I want to let you know that even though I'm going a way different than how you would have me go, I'm going to be thinking about you all the way. And if I see down the line that this is not going to be in your best interest, I'm going to reverse back. Because I don't want to do anything in my decision that's going to harm you. So even though I disagree with you, I'll honour you, because you're going to be on my mind all the way.�

This also is not MB.

I am not sure how you think this lines up with MB if there are parts that conflict with POJA and basically encourage IB for the H?

That paragraph mentions a husband wanting to make sure his decision doesn't harm his wife - but then going ahead and doing what he wants anyway. It completely misses that if your wife isn't enthusiastic about something you want to do, doing it will be a harm to her.

It'll hurt your wife to do something she's not enthusiastic about. It'll hurt even worse if you ask first, find out how she feels, and do it anyway. That is basically the definition of thoughtless behavior. I find it to be the opposite of loving your wife.

Regarding sacrifice, Dr. Harley has said the following:


I would point out the following from the Bible:


God does not envision Christians sacrificing to those who can repay them. In a marriage, we are able to repay each other. That is what marriage is all about: husband and wife providing mutual care for each other, pleasing each other (1 Corinthians 7 talks about this). If you want to offer a sacrifice to God, provide a work of benevolence to someone who cannot repay.

Interesting thought, but even God eventually goes to Plan B!

Does she really mean this? This concerns me. Her sanity is dependent upon YOUR emotional state??

Yes actually. Lately she's been pretty fragile. She's been through a lot of emotional trauma in her life that I don't know where to begin so I won't bother. She expressed that if I am not being the "rock" of the relationship she feels lost. Her anxiety has been pretty bad this year... As my own also. I'm not saying 100% of the time though but she has expressed it during emotional times of unstability as well as to our psycologist.

I was reading about some of John Gottman's research, and one topic that was studied would be very much like the idea of POJA - there were three categories; negative sum, neutral sum, positive sum. The study ran for 20 years, and at the end of the 20, those who had a habit of negative-sum decision making (MB translation; one spouse sacrificing for the happiness of the other) did not return. In fact, many had died.

These acts of sacrifice are not just bad for a marriage, they are bad for your health!

The man who wrote the articles is a man. I do not agree with several segments of what he wrote. For instance, the bits about sacrifice and sanctification and such.

I do agree with what God wrote. And I believe that MB lines up very well with what God wrote.

If it did not line up with what God wrote, then I would not be a proponent of MB.

"Your Word is settled forever in heaven." Ps. 119:89

"ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for instruction, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." II Tim. 3:16

It is evident from Dr. Harley's writings that God's infallible Word is a part of his approach. I like that.

Ditto.

I've heard Dr. Harley say that if a wife is very emotional and anxious, a husband usually tends to be able to deal with that, while if a husband is very emotional and anxious, it usually drives a wife nuts. As an example, Dr. Harley referred to Monk the detective on the USA TV series - he mentioned that men who are like that in real life tend to drive any woman in their lives nuts.

I think Prisca can testify that that is true, as she is married to a man very much like Monk. I have to make sure I use the POJA to prevent me from imposing the burden of my anxieties on Prisca. For example, if I want all my handkerchiefs folded a certain way, I don't demand that she do it - I do it myself or put up with how she does it if she does it for me. (I actually figured this one out on my own before marriage builders, but there were a thousand other anxieties I was all too willing to impose on her in the past.)

I feel the same markos. Seems now that I got my anxiety under control, she has an easier time maintaining hers.

When my emotional state was very anxious and unstable (prior to going to the psycologist with her, which we do together) my wifes was also. She likely fed off my emotional state (she admits to this) and in direct proportion to her fear it drove her to want to be very controlling of every aspect of our lives (admittied to this also in a session with our psycologist). She's beginning to let go and be quicker to forgive instead of holding grudges against me for the longest time over seemingly the smallest of things. I basicly had to give up all my needs and do plan A while we were going to the psycolohist 4x a month. Its now only 1x a month as we work through our struggles, fears, insecurities and issues. MB is still our primary tool we just have other inner issues to take care of.

When I get a chance I will snip the parts I liked from the articles. I agree some of what's said contradicts mb in the terms it was written. It is just a mans interpretation of the duties described in the bible. But the message is still clear.

"LOVE my wife until she's the person I need her to be".

I didn't marry her, I married her entire history. Some of which is just coming to light now as we build a safety net around us.

So that means I go first, always with love, since I should be the most stable emotionaly in the home (for the longest time I was not).. God commands it.

MNG

Well, for 2000 years the Church has always taught that the husband was to be the head of the house, just as Christ is head of the Church.
The marriage is somewhat of a picture of Gods relationship with the Church.
The issue is that Dr. Harley is not the Pope. Hes only been alive for maybe 70 years and the Church has existed for 2000 years.

In centuries past, the Church interpretation was working and there was little divorce (with exceptions such as King Henry who wanted to divorce his wife; the Pope wouldn't let him so he banned the Church).
People could not divorce because it (1) would not be granted in most cases and (2) there were no women rights.

Today women have rights and they dont want to be controlled by their husband. Harley has commented on this as well on the Radio Show.
In our modern age, some parts of the Biblical rules and Church traditions on marriage are not followed

Well put Jedi_knight.

Wasn't there a thread a long time ago that touched on this stuff by another board member? His name I think started with an "M". I want to say Maroon but that's not it. If someone remembers what it is plz link to it in here.

Thanks
MNG