I think this kind of talk is a big mistake at this point in time. You're going to have to draw her in slowly and having these kind of relationship talks on you dates isn't making them pleasant.

I'd suggest you go into these dates with the mindset that she is a whole other woman from the one you married. Treat her like you would a regular date. Make it fun and talk about anything other than your relationship. Leave that stuff for later.

You want her eventually looking forward to the time you spend together and if every time you get together you are telling her how bad she is she is only going to dread those times more and more.

Same thing goes for your "ambushes" on the patio.

FightTheFight - I agree that those complaints were a mistake. Usually I am in control of myself but occasionally my emotions get the best of me.

As for the house, the whole thing has been frustrating. We are considering renting it out after all, and maybe borrowing from my 401k to get money for a down payment on the new house. WW claims that it is very easy to get renters for houses in our neighborhood.

Melody - I haven't given up spying yet but it seems like whenever I try something I just end up wasting money on something that doesn't work. I wrote to the people who put up that stuff on jailbreaking the phone, and they haven't responded yet. I do have the phone backed up, it's just a question of getting the jailbreak to work on iOS 7.

As for the UA time, this is something I am also really struggling with. I just don't know what she loves to do anymore. She used to love exercising and going to the gym, but she has refused all my offers to take part in that, and she no longer does it by herself either. She also won't go out to see a movie with me. The only thing I have had success with is getting her to go out to dinner with me once a week. I have been observing her but basically she just reads books about "emotional healing" and watches HGTV on TV - programs about selling houses mostly. But at this point she doesn't seem to have any interests/hobbies that I could take part with her. I'm really just trying to figure out how to reach her. It seems a lot of the things I'm seeing from her are just classic signs of withdrawal/depression. I simply may not be able to make any progress on any fronts until this abates somewhat.

BTW I'm reading "MywifeIlove"'s thread - it is very interesting. I'm not even halfway through yet - it is long!

One slight silver lining of being on furlough tomorrow though - I asked her if she'd go out to lunch with me then and she agreed.

If you have it backed up you can do some things manually without a program. (Like view text messages) Is it backed up to a PC or a Mac?

See you are making progress

I'd go a bit more softly softly with your complaints. You have to get her used to complaints, but you have to complain cheerfully and confidently is a safe way.

So instead of talking about how hurt you were/how awful something was *(which will just make drama). Just factually inform her you didnt like something. For now, I'd focus on "I would love it if" type complaints.

I'd firm up your snooping too. Can you put a VAR in the house?

Wait for her to accidentally catch your eye, then say:
"I love it when you look at me, you have such beautiful eyes"

As for the phone:

"I'd like you to check with me before you make decisions regarding your phone in future."

You are allowed to make simple complaints. No need to up the drama level in order to excuse your need to make complaints.

Indiegirl - good ideas regarding how to make complaints/suggestions. If she is doing something that I really think needs to be addressed, I can't just totally ignore it but I don't want to make a big deal of things either.

Putting a VAR in the house is one thing I haven't tried yet so I will do it. Maybe I'll swing by RadioShack at some point to see if they have any.

I've peaked at the phone a few times when she's left it lying around and haven't seen anything suspicious. Just the fact that she no longer has a passcode on it and seems willing to leave it sitting around some of the time is encouraging for me.

You can't be faulted for your attitude if you can find a bright side to being laid off.

That wouldn't cut it for me I'm afraid. It's easy to get an affair phone or simply delete stuff. Every wayward there ever was has learned that trick.

I'd concentrate on your spyware so you can verify properly. There are encouraging signs from her but you need to be sure.

True, I'm still not satisfied for sure that nothing is going on.

And an unfortunate update: WW said because it was yucky out that she didn't want to go out to lunch. So this is how it's been - I continuously try to talk to her and get her to do stuff with me, but the majority of the time I get blown off. She read SAA and the counselor and others have told her that love is an action, and the things she needs to do to rebuild it, but for whatever reason she doesn't want to. It is very frustrating. This is what got me into trouble last week - sometimes it hurts so much that I'm doing all this to try to save our marriage but she just isn't participating at all, that I eventually express my frustration.

Per Mr. Alias's suggestion, I read all of "MyWifeILove"'s thread. Wow - what an inspiring story! Just as I compare his situation with mine, in some ways his was harder, but in other respects mine seems more challenging. In his case, he had to hear his WW talk to the OM on the phone right in his presence, and his WW actually moved out.

However, despite this, at least his WW seemed to want to talk to him and go places with him and do things with him, even when she was still in communication with OM. Whereas for me, though my WW lives at home still, I barely am able to talk with her at all or get her to do anything with me. I feel sort of conflicted - on the one hand I don't want to appear desperate or to push too hard, but on the other hand I know that if I don't try to talk to her or ask her to do things, then we'll simply never do anything at all and keep living in a loveless marriage forever. Sigh.

Pius,

The key to a great Plan A is to stick to the plan and not let emotions take over. MWIL was able to maintain his cool, do a great plan A, implement a dark Plan B, etc without expressing his frustrations (at least after he got the hang of MB). He became far more attractive than the POSOM. This is your goal.

It is going to take a great long while to entice your W back. We've talked about that. You'll see nothing, nothing, nothing then one day, some day, it'll change. Are you ready for that long haul?

She's still there, you're still able to make those LB deposits. But do it without LB�ing or you�re doomed. You can create a new side to you that while not void of emotions is able to control them and become a great partner. But you have to do it every day until it becomes the new you. If nothing ever changes after a good long while we�ll be here to discuss Plan B. We all know if you do it right it should never come to that.

MrAlias,

I hear what you're saying about not letting emotions take over, but it is SO HARD sometimes. WW and I were at counseling today, and she was telling the counselor how I had asked her to confide in me, but WW said she could not because it would hurt me too much. She could not tell me that she was afraid she would never find love like the POSOM again. Now, I know this is not news to me, and I know it's fogbabble - but it just hurts so much!!! We were each other's first loves - we slept in the same bed for over a decade, we had five kids together! And she thinks she'll never have love like what she had with some fat, unemployed man living in his dad's basement who messes around with married women. It is just SICKENING!! And to top it off, I find the handwritten letter I wrote for WW torn up in the trash today too. I asked her if she meant anything by it and she said no - just didn't want someone else to find it and read it or something. Whatever. Argh - guys I don't know if I'm going to make it. She may be here with me but it's only because she's trapped. She is still pining away for the POSOM. Nothing I've done has made any difference. It makes me feel like I'm trapped too. Every night I go to bed to an empty bed, lonely. This is NOT what I signed up for when I got married. I'm just so darn discouraged and in so much pain. I just hate my life right now with a passion.

Pius, please don't get discouraged. We are not!! When a falling down drunk stops drinking, they really miss the alcohol at first. After your wife withdraws, she will see the OM in a new light. I am really disappointed that she told you this, because it was so unnecessary.

It is a not a good idea for your wife to tell you things like this. There is no reason for you to know her feelings about this swine and it is a HUGE LOVEBUSTER for you.

This is why Dr Harley is adamant that the affair never be discussed again once all the facts are known!!! There is only downside to bringing the tragedy of the past into the present. As you can see!

Tell the counselor that this is a not a good idea and agree to never discuss the affair again. Will you do this? One of the downfalls of counseling is that couples who are counseled together leave the session more angry and upset than when they went in. That is destructive to your marriage.

Wouldn't it be more productive and safe for your marriage to spend that time getting pedicures or massages together?

Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment

It is also destructive to your wife's recovery to sit around and PINE for this big fat loser. When she talks about it, she triggers those feelings even more and impedes her own withdrawal.

I guarantee that is not allowed in serious addiction recovery programs. They do not sit around and pine away and slobber on about whiskey at AA meetings. I can't think of anything more destructive. And in your wife's case, it only makes it all that much harder to her husband to recover his feelings of love. It only increases your pain and trauma. And for what? FOR NOTHING!!!

Melody - good point. I don't blame the counselor too much for this though - WW volunteered the information without specific prompting for it. But yes, hearing it was just devastating for me. I find it so remarkable how I can be so hurt by just hearing something that I already know or suspect to be true. I guess it's just like tearing the scab off of a wound.

I so wish we could get pedicures or manicures or do anything together too. But the only thing I can get WW to do with me is go out to dinner once a week. She even backed out of the lunch we were supposed to have together on Monday. She's just full of depression and it's all because she misses the POSOM. I'm literally nothing to her, she sabotaged the love that she had for me so that way she could make room for the POSOM in her heart. It's as if she erased all of our love from existence in her mind. Yet I love her so much, and all my love for her is just futile.

Maybe it would be a good idea to either ask for SEPARATE counseling sessions [you take the first 30 and she take the back 30] and/or set some ground rules?

You could set some ground rules to the counselor and your wife that the affair not be brought up again.

Dr Harley is extremely opposed to counseling couples together for this reason. Counseling you together causes lovebank withdrawals at a very vulnerable time in your marriage.

Maybe. We are also seeing IC's as well. My IC tends to make me feel better and more optimistic. I think our MC is trying the best she can. My WW seems to open up during those sessions, which, as I've said, is not always easy for me to hear. On the one hand I feel like it is good for me to know what she's thinking and feeling, but on the other hand it doesn't seem like she is thinking or feeling anything positive towards our marriage. So understanding where she's coming from doesn't seem to make things better - only worse - from my standpoint.

It doesn't seem like your MC knows what she is doing if she is counselling you together. I'd also be wary about leaving her alone with an MC who is clearly clueless too.

She's also bound to be wittering on about POSOM in her IC sessions too which is bad for her. It's bad for her to sit around and dwell like this. Even if the MC didn't ask about the POSOM, the set up meant she was almost destined to do so.

I can't imagine what this MC and two ICs must be costing you. Can't you just get Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers on the phone and get them to speak to your wife? Or Dr H on the radio?I'm sure they would try to encourage her to drop the subject of the OM and concentrate on the marriage.

No counselling at all would be better than these dour situations where there is a set up in which your wife is encouraged to dwell and ponder.