That's not a lovebuster. Now I'm not saying it won't upset her but in a good marriage where there is nothing to hide snooping is encouraged yet almost moot because if proper boundaries / total transparency is in place there'd be little to no need to snoop.

I understand you don't want to upset the apple cart so I would definitely change your username and quite possibly have the moderators remove your posts if you know she's going to come here to visit.

Later, if and when she understands and agrees with the principals here, you two can discuss proper boundaries and transparency. For now your job is to snoop like 007 and entice her with the new you.

Good Morning MrAlias,

Thanks for the good advice. As far as snooping being a lovebuster or not I think that ordinarily it would not be as you suggest. That being said I believe my wife's situation may be different. Sacrificing so much she is struggling with her independence and although I agree this shouldn't be a place where she makes her stance the fact remains that she views this as part of her individualism. If she were to discover that I have been snooping (something that I have done before in the past and confronted her with evidence) she would just chalk it up as I didn't trust her and haven't changed. So basically I'm snooping to protect myself and if I feel she will view MB then I'll change my login and inform the moderators beforehand...

Unfortunately I stumbled executing my Plan A and had a few setbacks. I called my wife a few days ago and she told me that I've been contacting her too much. Apparently when we speak she has been giving me her UA and as a result it has been too time consuming with all she has to deal with being alone in the US with the kids. She did mention that our kids and extended family don't respect her time. (I guess people have been calling her when it's convenient for them on days off having the basic assumption that she's a stay-at-home mom and she's available. With the kids they've been acting like she's supposed to jump when they need something.) She then went into how I don't respect her time by talking to her multiple times a day. I was able to outline my intensions even if it may have fallen on deaf ears. From our new exchange it is clear that conversation is not one of her highest emotional needs and us hitting 20+ hours of conversation is turning into a lovebuster for her. I have changed my approach however I could sense the shift from conflict back to withdrawal.

My second hurdle came during our talks yesterday. We were talking great and I was asking questions about her before we were together. We were being open and honest and things were going smooth until I said what I thought was innocent "Oh, I never knew that about you." She then said that she never confided in me about certain aspects of her past and that our relationship was not like that where she felt she could confide in me before. Looking back now I should have apologized for how I was and stated that I'm ready and interested now or just changed the subject but I didn't. Not only did I entertain the conversation we began going through a timeline of how we saw our relationship differently that left her reaffirming that we were never at the same place (in love fighting for the relationship) at the same time. Basically I got caught in a trap and instead of freeing myself I went into explaining my mentality at the time. Yeah, I fell for the bait and now it is like that amazing time we spent on the phone recently didn't happen. Major setback... (The tone of the conversation remained civil with no DJ or AO�s but it still left her drained and not what either of us wanted�)

We did speak after this discussion and she mentioned that no matter what conversation we have that it eventually becomes heavy/deep and that's not what she needs right now. (Another lovebuster identified) I told her that I understood and had to change my approach for now. I'm going to have to target our UA much lower and avoid any relationship talk until I'm back. The ironic thing is that all of the talks that could be described as heavy it was my W that brought up our relationship, not how I am now just how I was and the disconnect we have now. That being said I have to be smarter that than to "chase down the rabbit hole" since it is against Plan A and draining any LB deposits.

I've started to learn better but definitely had a lapse when I really can't afford to. Now for my new question:

In one of my conversations during this time I made it clear that if we didn't work out that I'd want the kids. No lovebusters committed when I expressed it. (She basically deemed the kids coming with her as automatic if there was any separation.) Would this be viewed as a mistake? I didn't want her having and dissolution or fantasy that she could make the choice to check out of our marriage and get the kids. (Basically having her cake and eating it too...) I know Plan A still allows for setting of boundaries for making sure I'm not a doormat but could this be viewed from her standpoint as an ultimatum in any way? I know I've always been a good dad, have the financial means to support, and that she hasn't worked in over 10 years. I will also be changing my work hours that would give us the time to work to rebuild our relationship yet if she unwilling or it doesn�t work out I don�t want to lose my kids too. I'm not trying to force her to be in my arms however I don't want to be left with nothing either.

In what way did you say this? Just like that? I'd want the kids?

That sounds like a statement that doesn't take her feelings into consideration. Afterall they are her kids too. It definitely sounds like an ultimatum from over here.

If you meant to say if you didn't work out you'd still want to be a very active parent in the kid's lives and would certainly be willing to take the brunt of the financial and housing responsibilities then say that. Don�t say something that sounds like you want to take them away.

As far as enticing her back � you are going to have to avoid the relationship talk. You have to be enjoyable to talk to. Any R talk will feel like pressure and ruin the talk. You see that now I�m sure.


Ok. So you blew it. What are you going to do to rectify that?

When you are listening you need to learn to repeat back what you heard so she can see that you heard her. You also offer some insight so she knows you know how she felt. And show you have empathy.

�Oh my! You can�t confide in me? You honestly feel that way? I am so sorry. I did a poor job as a husband making you feel you couldn�t confide in me. You should be able to share your most intimate thoughts with your H. I should have had your back. I�m sorry I didn�t.�

Don�t try to justify your past behavior or convince her she�s wrong. These are her perceptions/experiences and she, just like you, has a right to them.

Good Morning MrAlias,
I�m sorry if I just cut to the chase when I wrote �In one of my conversations during this time I made it clear that if we didn't work out that I'd want the kids� before. I didn�t say it like that. I mentioned that I wanted to clarify something from a previous discussion. I didn�t want any future misunderstandings. I realize that I am making many changes to rebuild our relationship and that with the kids. These changes would allow us to go forward with our plan. She mentioned that if we did not work out that she�d want me to play a part in the kid�s lives. For me I wanted to play a much larger part and wanted her to consider me taking the kids. I basically had your same approach but used different words.

I understand what you mean about avoiding the relationship talks. I think my only saving grace was that it was an even tone and civil conversation with no DJ�s or AO�s so there was no lingering damage. We�ve talked regularly since then a few times and they�ve been very good conversations. (In line with 15+ hours this week�) I am now working on my patience with my approach to our discussions. In addition to any R talk, I have to avoid anything that can appear as pressuring her. I think this is part of why the stumble occurred. Although it was good conversation it may have been too much too fast causing her to feel smothered so I�ve added some additional caution.

I completely agree with you that my wife has her right to her perceptions and experiences and how she feels about them. I did miss an opportunity to express understanding and feel kind of lucky I didn�t completely **EDIT**. How I�m going to rectify that is first by learning from our conversations and not to bring up this disagreement. Revisiting this unpleasant topic would be an older pattern and I believe she would see it as a lovebuster. I am really trying to see things through my wife�s eyes in advance (withdrawn, angry, and skeptical) in an attempt to avoid pitfalls. The biggest change right now has been my ability to avoid my W�s DJ. When she says them they are general assumptions on how I was so naturally that is who I am. I was not handling the DJ�s correctly lately because I would try to explain either past behavior or how I�m different all of which is deep and borderline relationship conversation through her eyes. I realize that I feel misunderstood both then and now by the way I�m characterized and it�s my Taker taking over during those times trying to defend or explain. The fact is it�s not about me during Plan A and my focus should be empathy, understanding, and meeting my wife�s emotional needs as best as I can.
When I feel the need to explain during a conversation now I ask my W if she wants to explain in more detail (so I can completely understand how and why she feels the way she does with no judgments�) or apologize and move to something that will definitely take the Defcon level down a couple notches. Also because I am very interested in her I usually have several things I want to talk about so there is never any dead air or that awkward silence. I am also trying to learn how to accept her short answers at times. I ask questions sometimes for general knowledge like if she has any plans later and will be met with �Relaxing, why?�. Now my W was able to have her parents keep the kids for the first time in years so this has been a rare break for her over the next couple of days. She dropped them off on Wednesday and came back to our home with the dog on Thursday. We stayed in contact throughout the day and night, initiated by her, which all was great. She was actually cleaning, doing errands, etc. however I didn�t care because we could just talk, exchange ideas, and I felt engaged and involved in her day. Today, the same happened for the most part during the day. She is now to the point that she�s finished ��getting the house back on track� which I imagine took substantial effort with the mess of 4 kids and a dog. I really only asked my question to see how she was, maybe suggest she take in a movie (something she never gets a chance to do), or express my hope that she�d try to take it easy and not use her break doing house stuff entirely. I said as such and changed the topic and things ended well.

Visiting this website does help and I was lucky that I read some material before talking with my W since there�s a good chance I would have responded differently otherwise. I will try to visit and do my reading more. In my case it is a delicate balance that I�m trying to learn as I go. When I execute my Plan A (just generally upbeat which is my new natural way) my wife responds great for a while then pulls back thinking that I�m pretending everything is ok, ignoring how she feels, or blindly assuming we�ll be together. If my tone gets to be even or close to indifferent she will ask me what we�re doing or try to revisit the living in limbo discussion. I'm managing those day by day so I don't lose sight of things to avoid lovebusters. After becoming a stay at home mom she's put a very high emotional need into independence or individualism also. I believe at times if she perceives this could be treatened that's sometimes when her answers become short.

Surprisingly I really have a great outlook and am always excited to speak with her initially. I find that her attitude at times does bring me down but now I do my best never to show it. I will say it is hard since anybody that has a negative quality if we�re in a conversation she�ll express that I�m like that. Some of this may be what she truly feels but a good portion of the cases it more so feels she�s rewriting history but I just apologize that how she feels. I feel sometimes that it�s a boxing match and instead of her being in my corner or on my team, she�s my opponent and all I can do is Ali�s �rope a dope� till the wayward flurry tires out. I just miss my W and only get small glimpses of who she really is. I�m not sure which of the �stages� would best fit her at the moment.

Being the spouse trying to entice her back it's difficult to direct the R into good behaviors.

Independence in a M is usually not a good thing. Codependence is bad too. Trying to find that interdependent lifestyle is the goal.

So I caution you. If you're to build a life with her it CANNOT be one filled with IBs. It has to be that interdependent lifestyle that Dr Harley talks about. So don�t lead her astray thinking independence is what she can expect now or in the future. See if you can find ways to let her feel independent while still being tied in with you. In other words she can go back to school or find a satisfying career but it will be done through mutual agreements not her mandating her path.

You don�t want to use poor behaviors as the backbone of your recovery.

Good Morning MrAlias,

I really appreciate your insight. I have to agree with you that it has been difficult to direct the R into good behaviors when I�m �on the outside�. This challenge has also been magnified by the physical distance between us. I�m not sure if I am characterizing my W correctly so I will try in this post to focus on her since of course she�s the reason why I�m here. My W sees her life as unfulfilling with a M that ended up having her in the same place. At 37 when she looks at the sum of her accomplishments to this point she feels that she hasn�t done much. Except for being a wonderful mother and my W a part of her that she would like to define herself is missing. (For lack of a better description this part of her personality I would say is similar to a mid-life crisis.) She sacrificed pursuing the degree she wanted, working so she could raise the kids, and a lot of opportunities and experiences in her 20�s and 30�s to enjoy life due to our finances: travel, trips, etc. (Experiencing life and not just reacting to the problems and situations that we all know life will throw at us�)

I can understand this because I do feel that my approach to our M before was wrong. I added to her feelings by putting our relationship to the side to push through the challenges that we had to face. So throughout our relationship we raised kids but it stopped being enjoyable for her and we weren�t living and experiencing life together, only reacting. I always thought wrongly that we�d get through this or that first and then focus on us but I helped to lose her in that process. She is looking to be happy and proud of her achievement or at least be on the road to accomplishing it. So I believe this is the part of her that she is looking for so maybe independence may not be the best word. Before me and even during the early part of our R she was much more than a mother or girlfriend so part of her is searching for that. Also with where our R ended up after 14 years (having her withdrawn) her view of a life with me didn�t give her the vision or hope of the happiness and clouds the thought of that being different even with the changes I have made. So instead of building an interdependent life together, which I complete agree should be the M goal, for years she felt codependent on me while I made larger lovebusters than LB deposits. So our situation currently is not entirely on IB that she exhibits.

I understand your warning about not building IB�s into my rebuilding efforts. I believe that my past behaviors do make it very challenging in this area. We were doing POJA years ago in part just not the right way. In practice in our R before we had to agree however the compromise aspect was horrible so often times my W would miss out on things because of it. That misunderstanding on my part of how to effectively discuss and reach agreements with my W I can see did fuel a few cases of IB attempts by her. She may say that she�s doing this or decided that on her own and I�ve been lucky that they weren�t issues. In those cases I would have reached the same decision which I told her and said �It�s great that I feel the same way that you do since I would have preferred that we discussed it first to avoid things ever being an issue�. She hasn�t been stating IB�s too much the last few months I think because of my changed approach. I feel that she has not tried any mandates since I reach out to her in a more caring way.
Overall Plan A has resumed being effective for me since my recent �lovebuster slip-up�. I�ve changed the way I address her needs. Before I had conversation and affection too high as well as providing other needs that she appears not to value to that degree so I rearranged them. (Now: 1- Admiration, 2- Domestic /Financial Support, 3- Family commitment, 4- Affection, 5- Conversation, 6- Recreational Companionship) I feel I have been making LB deposits based on the way she is beginning to talk to me with more care, sometimes compassion, a lot more laughter and humor, and with an increasing interest and frequency that she initiates. I see that the more progress that I make in eliminating lovebusters and correctly addressing her EN is changing her outlook and how she views us in the short term. My W is showing excitement for my return next week and she�s working with me to make a lot of plans for us. She mentions a lot now of taking ownership of her part for our R ever getting to this point which is a far cry from me just being the catalyst or root of all our problems.

DM,

Those certainly sound like positive movements. It sounds like she may be coming around so your new behaviors are making a difference. That sounds great.

I don't want to jump the gun here but you mentioned that you were dicussing plans for the two of you. Do those plans include some of the dreams and hopes that she says she's been missing out on? Do you think you two are in a place where you can openly brainstorm and POJA something that will make her happy?

Sure would be nice if you had that in place before you return home. That may go a long way in changing her outlook on what you returning home actually means for her. I'm wondering if she is still dreading your return.

You were reluctant to say "I love you" early in your relationship.
You kept some level of relationship with your previous girlfriend during your courtship with her.
You got her pregnant without being married.
You got her pregnant again with twins, and only got married then.
You/she could not support your family so you moved into your childhood home.
Your stealing brother also moved into this home.
You continued some kind of relationship with the ex.
She moved with you to an area where she has no support network.
You took a job half way around the world and left her with 4 children and no support network.

And you are wondering why she doesn't trust you?

I would say other than finances, what are you doing for her?
All you should be doing is trying to meet her needs. Of course she will be mad...MB tells us that you get mad when going through Withdrawal to Conflict to Intimacy. Keep it up dude!
Don't ask what she should be doing for you, you should be doing everything for her! If your marriage is meant to be, then she will come around once she has a positive Love Bank. But you have alot of deposits to make to get her balance above 0!

Good Morning All,

I apologize that it has been so long since I've written. I've been taking all of the great advice and tried to implement as much as I can along the way. I have now returned to the US for good and our marital home. I arrived on September 20th and have been working diligently to clean up my side of the street. I am writing so I can work to implement a Plan A to return romantic love to my relationship.

So far my attempts to include my wife in individual activities have not gone well. We will have great times together doing shopping or other activities which I am estatic about. I have been working to eliminate LB's however I've slipped on two occasions this past two weeks getting involved in relationship discussions although I know better to avoid them. Since returning to the US my job is now transitioning to NJ. We are faced with making a difficult decision to relocate however we both feel the move would be best for a fresh start. That being said my wife has been sleeping on our living room couch since my return. We have no physical or intimate interactions which I desperately miss. She has explained that she sees a profound difference in me but still reacts initially as if I was the man I was before.

I have been open-minded to all these new changes but can see that it is difficult. She has grown independent and does not look for any emotional support from me. I still provide it and try to engage her. She is now turned off by conversation so I have modified my approach to address her emotional needs. I still feel that our relationship is in "limbo" and asked that she consider marital counseling with me. She is extremely negative towards the idea, not for the opportunity itself, but mainly because I was so negative against it several years ago when I didn't see a problem and she did.

I would like some additional guidance how to develop an effective Plan A even though she is extremely unwilling to show any effort. She has now brought up the idea of a legal separation that kills me everytime I think of it. I also notice that she is extremely guarded with her cellphone with password locks and shutting it down if I walk near. I believe that she has male friends that she is in contact with so I think all of this is fueled by a EA of some sorts. Obviously I can't ask her if something is going on but have no way to confirm. How can I access a locked phone? I did find some Facebook communication that shows how negative she feels about marriage now and calling it overrated when with the wrong person. She has also had communication with a female friend stating that this chapter of her life is over back in July this year. The timing of these discussions were when I asked if she would consider me taking the kids if we were to separate. We agreed to discuss two plans that could bring us closer and if we could not return romantic love it would ease in a later decision if we had to make. Her scenario included the kids and I wanted her to know that I did not want to miss anymore time being away or removed from the kids. I did not express this to be mean or vindictive. She is struggling with here individualism and getting her life back on track so I thought this would be noble but she took it as an attack when I read through here email correspondence to her friend. (I'm trying to take her kids away was her basic sentiment)

I know that I am all over the place and apologize. I need help knowing if there is infact an EA going on. I also need advice how to reach someone who is not willing to invest anymore of her time. She has lost hope in the man I was and I don't blame her. I have a hard time understanding why she would want to go down the "separation" road if I am different. She says she can't be herself around me but it's not me now. She has conditioned herself to the habit of being guarded and feeling she can't be an individual while with me. How do I combat this ghost?

She wants to maintain this roomate scenario for the time being. This would be roughly 9 months till we would be in the position to move. Then she expects that we maintain what she calls "married on paper" while I support her reestablishing her life. From what I've read a legal separation gives her custody, finacial security and all of the binding commitments of a divorce. How can she suggest we live under the same roof as strangers now, then move and she be allowed to go outside of our marriage? Hurting badly right now...

hi Darkmoses! Glad to hear you are back in the house. I would suspect she might be having an affair. I would not ask her, though. You need to become a super sleuth and spy on her. If you can get into her phone, that would be the ideal solution if you could install spyware. Other ways are to install a VAR and a keylogger on her computer. You can pick up a VAR at RAdio Shack or WAlmart. A good keylogger is either spector pro or eblaster. eblaster will email you daily reports so you don't have to access her computer after you have installed it. If you have daily acess to her computer, you can use spectorpro. Those keyloggers can be downloaded at spectorsoft.com.

If she is having an affair, all of your efforts at filling her lovebank will be for naught. So it is important to find out if there is an affair so you can kill it.

In the meantime, I would continue doing what you are doing and attempting to fill her love bank. Avoid lovebusters at all cost and just be patient! And keep in mind that you have a huge competitive advantage over any other guy in that you are the father of her children!! No one can replace you. NO ONE. It is doubtful that any man would seriously consider taking on a woman with 4 children anyway. My money is on you!

DM, It�s good to hear from you again. I am sorry things haven�t taken a turn for the best.

High level advice:

You need to do some snooping. You having been separated from your W for so long it�s very possible she�s in an affair of some sort. There are plenty of red flags my friend.

If you have questions on how to go about that head over to the Operation Investigation section of the forum and do some research. Ask for help in doing some serious snooping.


As far as your interactions with her I�d avoid saying anything that agrees with her ideas of splitting up the family. It is important you let her know that you believe you can have a great marriage. You now have the tools necessary, which you didn�t have before, that will make your marriage great.

If she wants to split up the family let her do the heavy lifting. You remain optimistic for recovery and be steady in being an extremely attractive partner.

No more LB slip ups. It�s OK to talk about the R just be respectful, patient and pleasant when you do. Be sure the majority of your time is spent keeping things light, fun, pleasant and not bogged down with R talk. What exactly were these LB slip ups?

Perfect advice from MrA!

Definitely do not agree to this. I suggest you counter her proposal.

�I understand that right now we feel like roommates. I am willing to give this R some time to recover but doing so means we need to work at the R. I now have a better understanding of what it takes to have a great M and I know I have more to learn. I would really love it if we could get some help at giving this M another chance.

I would love it if we could build an interdependent life instead of building a life of independence. I�m not interested in supporting a plan that, in the end, means we�ll no longer be together or, at a minimum, makes attempts to salvage our M. �

Hi MelodyLane,

Thanks for your help and support. I also suspect that there is the start of an EA in some form. I have no intention of asking her and will try to focus on attracting her attention towards me again. I have access to her other accounts except for that cellphone. At best I'll have to try to see her enter the password but fear if I don't get it right it will show my attempt. I really wish there was a way to get in it since this would be the most telling way to get the information that I need. Another option I am trying is to upgrade all our phones to a new family plan. This might give me access to her new phone before the locks are in place. She is maintaining communication through text messaging so there is no conversations to overhear but I will get a VAR to make sure. I will admit that part of me is worried on what I may find although I know I need to know.

I will keep trying to fill her Love Bank by being the ideal husband that she deserves. I have been listening which has been a huge part. In addition to my contribution she is struggling with what I would call a mid-life crisis feeling that she's lost 14 years with me with only additional children to show for it. I believe this is an avenue that I can support her to help establish a sense of self in her career. I am also working on being super dad and trying to take as many responsibilities off of her plate as possible. Basically focusing on her need for support. With a WS I believe I should try to identify and stamp out any affair if I can while addressing her needs and avoiding LB's. Should these be my only objectives or are there other things I can do?

I do not want to force her away and there are points that we hedge closer and then she reinforces distance by reminding me just where she is at. I was not engaging this by apologizing and proceeding with Plan A but she feels like I am ignoring how she feels and that our relationship is over. Any pointers how to dance this line?

I've come to realize that I will have to lean on my reading and this site much more for support and strength through this difficult time. I feel so alone with so many drastic life changes and my W doesn't care...

Thanks Mr. Alias,

I will try this line of thought when the opportunity presents itself. Should this be how I approach it? If I push a relationship talk to explain your great feedback it is emotionally draining for both of us. I can only imagine that this will lead to her AO and claims for a D. So do I wait or discuss today when we just came off of a late night discussion (past 3 am) last night?

Mr. Alias,

Also she has no desire to work at our R at all right now. She says that now is her time because she's sacrificed so much to get our kids into school. She's always targeted this time when the kids are full time to return to the work force or school. She's just now added that it includes getting her indivudualism back and not being married. She wants out of the M so she doesn't have to consider me in anything she would like to do. Travel, go out, friends, my feelings, and what I suspect is another man.

I understand completely, But your chances are actually much better if this is the case. I know that sounds bizarro, but it is not hard to run off an OM. I strongly suspect that this is WHY your wife is so withdrawn and is so intent on demonizing you. These are all signs of an affair.

When a spouse has an affair, she/he will manufacture and exaggerate grievances going back years in order to justify the affair. So many of her complaints are conjured up for the purpose. Rewriting history is a classic trait.


I would not worry about this. Mid life crisis is a myth.


She won't find happiness in a career, though. Women derive happiness from their marriage. Once you get the marriage problems resolved, her happiness will return. Having a career and 4 children and a husband is a fast track to a life of hell so I wouldn't encourage that if I were you.


Exactly! The most important initiative here is uncovering the affair, though. Once you do that, we can help you kill the affair. That will clear the way for you to save your marriage.


Don't be annoying but let her know you are here for the longhaul and won't cooperate with any divorce or separation schemes. See, her fantasy is to replace you and get you to roll over and cooperate. You are not ignoring her feelings, but you are not going to cooperate. And when her affair is over and the fog goes away she will remember that you didn't enable her.


We are here for you!

Just wait until it comes up again. Be polite and civil and tell her you won't cooperate. And let her know that as long as she lives in the house and you are married, you are married. Don't let her pull that stunt that some waywards pull by moving in the guest room and proclaiming themselves to be "separated." They believe, for some unfathomable reason, that this entitles them to run around like an alley cat in heat.

I see what she is doing. She is having an affair and the strategy is to get you to agree that you are "separated" and therefore, she is entitled to date. Then she will magically meet some new dude and force him on you and the kids. She will try and get you to agree this is ok since you are "separated" and get your help in getting hte kids to accept the OM.

That is the plan! She wants to bring her affair out into the open while you support her.

Hey Mr. Alias,

She just called and again it ended with her AO and threatening to hang up. She is angry and carrying the conversation from last night over into today. I asked why she seemed upset or annoyed and she stated it was yesterday's conversation. In last night's conversation she brought up a legal separation which I stated could not work. Now she is adamant that something needs to be done because she feels stuck and can't live like this. I then went into your recommended point that I'm willing to give the relationship time to recover. She again stated that she's tired of having "these" conversations and that I should just leave her to be angry and get over it. I will be steadfast in my position but I'm not brining it up again. I just won't change my position or cooperate in any separation or divorce discussions.

Can't say I'm looking forward to heading home right now since I'm not sure how to get my mind right to Plan A. I am also frustrated since I can't figure a way to get access to her locked cellphone to stamp out this likely EA.

Now my concern is that we are in different places, her wanting out and me wanting the M. Since we would have to work on our R I don't see an "end game" right now if I can't destroy any EA if it exists. Help please...

DM, we do see an end game so please stick with us. Don't fight with her. If she rants and raves at you just be polite but don't let her drag you into a fight. She is trying to bait a fight so you will get angry and leave. OR justify her decision to leave.

Don't try to reason with her. You have to understand that she is high on the fog of an affair. She is about as reasonable as a falling down drunk.

So just stick to your guns!! Tell her you are not interested in any separation schemes and will not cooperate.

Get into that phone some how!!