Hi all, hope you can help me out as I have a lot of questions about the practical application of the program in my situation. Have HNHN, LB, and started on 5 steps, sort of. I think my question is what do I do when my attempt to meet her emotional needs is met with a love buster from her.

We tried to address love busters as such- she identified IB, AH, etc. which I have been working on. A huge change for me as her previous attempts to ask for things of that nature were met with resistance from me. I now realize that we must have a modern integrated marriage that Dr. Harley speaks of, and that it is a work in progress. She has a need for H&O and IC.

One thing I asked of her is to be careful about the tone of voice she uses as I am very sensitive about that. I also need admiration.
There has been some improvement in the tone of voice, but not in admiration.

There was a situation a few days ago where she told me in no uncertain terms that I messed up the dishwashing. The information was completely true, but not given very considerately. I mentioned this to her a few days later in the most marriage building way I could muster- that it bothered me the way I was told my dishwashing was inadequate, and could we find another way to get the info across. I did not raise my voice in the slightest, just stated how I felt about it. She immediately became completely crestfallen and withdrawn, and silence has reigned around the house for a week.
She then went to her Dr. for anti anxiety drugs because this is stressing her out so much.
The last few weeks we have been sporadically reading to each other the key points of HNHN, but I feel that LB's have not been properly addressed from the git-go, and that we need to go back to the beginning of 5 steps and start over, but how to sell that when she is in this mental state? Do I just suck it up and continue to plow ahead with meeting her emotional needs as best I can until our nerves calm down enough to talk about this stuff?
She has been on and off anti depressants for years, now feels like she is at the end of her rope and hardly has the strength to tie a knot.
This has been a pattern for years.

Welcome to Marriage Builders! I want to give you hope and assure you that you are on the right path. Conflicts are very common in the beginning.

Can she come here and tell us how she felt about the way you presented your complaint to her? It really upset her so I would work on the WAY you present your complaints. Can she help you with this?

Does she accept that complaints are a benefit to your marriage? I STILL have an emotional reaction to complaints and I have to override my emotions with my intellect to remind myself that "a complaint is valuable information!!!"

Are you scheduling 15-20 hours per week of undivided attention time?

For now, stick to using the lovebuster forms found in 5 Steps to inform each other of lovebusters. Most people have trouble handling complaints at the beginning -- Dr. Harley has said that complaints actually do make withdrawals from the lovebank. When your lovebank is empty, it is difficult to handle them.

So complain using the forms. Only discuss the issues in writing for now, and kept it factual and respectful.

Your wife should also use the forms to complain. Instead of telling you directly how your dishwashing bothered her, she could have used one of the lovebuster forms and informed you of it in writing.

It would look something like this:

DATE
Lovebuster: annoying habit
When you were washing the dishes, it bothered me when you _________.

Keep it short and free of emotions. You have done your part, and it is now up to the other person to change his or her behavior.

Hi, Neera,

Welcome to Marriage Builders. You've come to the right place as the next step for getting help to get the program working in your marriage.

As my wife mentioned, using those worksheets to exchange information about love busters is crucial. It gets it in writing, you can pass the information in a less emotionally-charged atmosphere.

A complaint is a love bank withdrawal. But it is not a love buster, according to Dr. Harley. It's a passing of vital information. Her reaction may be negative, and it may even be abusive (demanding, disrespectful, or angry), but it is vital that that information be passed. Of course, it is also vital that you pass the information in a way that is not demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

Winning my wife back with Marriage Builders was very difficult, and to tell you the truth, she was not very motivated to eliminate her disrespect toward me until I had succeeded. Once your account in her love bank is past the romantic love threshold, her instincts kick in in your favor and prompt her to not be disrespectful toward you, to care about your complaints, and to meet your emotional needs. But until then, her instincts work against you, prompting her to commit love busters to push you away.

It is vital that you pass information about her love busters to her (i.e., make complaints - use the worksheets) but you may expect negative reactions to that information for some time.

Are the two of you scheduling time to meet the most important intimate emotional needs? i.e., are you going out on dates to follow the Policy of Undivided Attention? These are where the biggest love bank deposits come from.

Also, are you snooping to rule out a possible affair on her part?

Also, are you listening to Dr. Harley's daily radio show? I recommend this as one of the most vital resources for winning your wife back. For me it took expert daily training from the Dr.

Neera, regarding the silences, I recommend trying to schedule an event soon: can you plan a date with your wife? Can you plan a family event with your wife and kids? These are good ways to make love bank deposits.

She is in withdrawal in those silences - but withdrawal is a very lonely place. Eventually we all want our emotional needs met, and we poke out cautiously, somewhat noncommittally. She may even come out fighting!

The Three States of Mind in Marriage
Intimacy
Conflict
Withdrawal
How One Spouse Can Lead the other Back to Intimacy

Thanks so much for the help so far. I will try to answer all the questions-
I don't think she would be comfortable coming here. I asked her one time about listening to the radio program and she said "I don't want to hear all about other people's problems" so I am quite sure she would not want to share her own on the forum.
I hesitated for a long time to come here myself, though I have read it for years. We are not following POJA anyway (another issue) so I finally decided to just do it because I desperately needed some encouragement and motivation from the veterans.
Several days ago I tried to get a discussion about a better way for me to present complaints, but she said she "didn't want to get into a tit for tat". I replied that I sure didn't want to either, just wanted to find out more information so we can deal with this kind of thing constructively. She said she accepts that complaints are legitimate but "just can't deal with my sensitivity".

We are not getting much UA time. At one point she actually sat down and penciled out how we could get 15 hrs a wk, but in real life it seems too easy to schedule other things during those times.

I have kept an eye on her phone from time to time, she does not guard it closely at all. I see no suspicious emails, either, she is on Facebook but I am not, so I don't know how to keep an eye on that. I have not seen any of the classic speeches or behaviours that indicate waywardness. It seems like an affair might be indicated by coming out of depression, not going deeper into it, which seems to be happening now? Don't know...

I have been listening to the radio daily for several months now, and agree that it is extremely valuable info, even when the caller's conversation, emails, etc. are not exactly what you are going through. You still learn a lot.
Joyce and Dr. Harley have addressed my emails twice on the air. I declined to go on the air at this time. I believe she said my complimentary copy of He Wins She Wins would be sent soon.
Markos, thanks for those links, I have read all but the last one several times but will read it again ASAP.

Thanks again for help so far- for all the reading I have done, somehow I did not realize that it was actually normal to withdraw love units when a complaint was made, however nicely. I have frequently said to myself that her complaints would be MUCH easier to take, even if she was grumpy about them, if my own needs were being met. When they are not, almost anything asked seems like "lovebusting" on her part.

Neera - it's good to hear you're listening to the radio show! It can take some doing, but with that constant information and encouragement you can eventually turn your marriage around.

Keep checking up on your wife. If you're reading and listening around here you know that affairs can easily start in a marriage where someone isn't happy. If you DO find evidence of an affair, come here and post about it and we will help walk you through the next steps on that route.

In the meantime,

Yes, complaints are a love bank withdrawal, according to Dr. Harley. I wish I had a radio show link for you, but I can tell you I've heard him say this a number of times on the show. (I know I heard it once in 2010 when I first started listening.) It's even a withdrawal when Joyce complains to him. But it is necessary information - there are no good alternatives to it.

If your wife can't tell you what it would take to make your complaints respectfully, you may need to do the best you can until you have won her over and she is more interested in communicating with you. But if you want to post some examples here we can help you look for more respectful ways to make your complaints. As my wife said - use the worksheets! That alone can make a huge difference.

Good idea about addressing LB's in writing, will talk with her about that...
I have wondered for a while if I might have to just "tough some things out" with regard to making love bank deposits, until things warm up a bit and other issues can be talked about. Taking this type of initiative has been very difficult for me in a lot of ways in life, and I am learning better ways to deal with it.
I appreciate the encouragement, it really helps. In the past I would become very frustrated when my attempts at deposits didn't go well, and would just give up. Sometimes those misguided attempts on my part were met with AO's, ouch. AO's have not happened for many years, but sometimes wonder if the crying spells are a form of them?
A while back she wrote down a lot of specific things that make her feel loved, and that has been very useful information. Now to make a plan to do those things regularly til it becomes a habit.

In regard to examples of making complaints, the only one I have really tried to make in accordance with MB principles is the example I gave at first about the dishwashing. I have swept my botherations under the rug for so long, as an attempt to avoid conflict, that examples are almost nonexistent. I would tell myself that "it didn't really matter" "nobody else would be bothered by that," etc.

Neera, it sounds like you're doing things right. One thing I would suggest is for you to up your UA time.

I also think that you should reconsider re-phrasing your response to her complaints. Maybe something like: "I would love it if we could load and empty the dishwasher together, so I would know for sure how you like to have it done."

Just checked my leave bank at work, I have 5 weeks. Gives me a few ideas for some serious UA time, especially if Grandpa and Grandma are available to watch some kids for a while...

A big part of her frustration is that if she likes something done a certain way, she expects to explain it one time and it will get done exactly that way every time from then on. If I don't get it right the first time, it really annoys her. I have been trying to pay closer attention when she explains stuff, especially if it's something that is not that big of a deal to me, because I know it's easier to do it wrong if I don't really care.

Hi Neera (Great handle, BTW)

How about saying to your wife, "I would really like it if we could load the dishwasher together three or four times, so I can get into the habit of doing it how you like. It is important to me to get this right. How would you feel about that?"

In this example, you are enlisting her assistance in coaching you. Plus, it is more fun to do stuff together... And you are showing her that you ARE interested in doing it the way she likes...

I do know what you mean, though. Taffy has a certain way the toilet roll MUST be put on the wall. Since it doesn't matter at all to me, I have spent long minutes staring at the roll, trying to remember, over the top, or from underneath?

Been a busy weekend, don't want to let this thread go flat. We are ordering a new dishwasher today so this will be an opportunity to load it together a few times...

A big part of my problem is energy level, it gets to a certain time of day and I'm just done with social interaction and decision making.

Example: Wife was in shower, I was supposed to help kids get their bedtime snack. There was a kafuffle between the two of them about "what mom said we could have", and so DS is bugging wife in shower to get the answer he wanted, and I just couldn't deal with it anymore. Wife is upset because I should have been decisive about it, then she could have a shower in peace. She brought it up later (quite nicely, I might add), and I said, (quite nicely, I might add), that I would be more decisive about such things in the future. So that turned out OK, but even relatively successful things like that stress me out.

I am trying to "sidle up" to enacting more MB concepts- At one point this weekend she was on the computer and I came up to her and asked "how would you feel if I was to go and put away stuff in the garage for a while" She gave me a look that was at once charmed and quizzical- and asked me why I was asking such a thing. It did seem quite clear, however, that she appreciated my concern about how she felt. I replied "I want to be considerate in my decision making process".

Another example is she was at a work seminar and I texted her about taking DS out to eat. (DD was with Grandma.)

She said later that that degree of interaction in every decision sounded like "crazy making". Frustrated her to think that I felt like I had to have permission for something like that. (She had taken out DD last weekend w/o my prior knowledge. I am in favor of that, but she never asked...)
We have never discussed POJA in so many words.

Although in theory the idea of integrated marriage is what she says she has always had, she doesn't seem to believe it needs to be THAT integrated.

After a typical weekend of dealing with this kind of stuff, It feels just fine to go back to my boring job and take a break from family for a while.

I am so sensitive to the kids rivalry and how it bleeds over into our marriage. Can a person ever get to the point where they just take the bumps in the road in stride and keep going? It just seems to give me a flat tire every time. I feel like I can only deal with one stressor at a time, and if more than that come along, I'm just done.

I have thought for years that maybe I am depressed, but have tried at least 3 different AD's and they have not made a lick of difference. The only thing that seems to help is my personal counselor that I have been seeing weekly, then bi-weekly, for about 6 months. It has now been almost a month though. But that costs money...can't keep doing that forever no matter how effective it is.

I'm not sure what you are asking for.

If you go "off duty" in the evening, doesn't that simply mean that all the stressors are then your W's problem? How does that work for her?

Well, I guess we have hit the same low as so many times before.

W is now so upset that she has spent most of the weekend in bed and is eating little or nothing.

I thought things were turning the corner, we had lunch out on Friday, I helped her with a task, we had great conversation and it was all good. I even worked out a schedule with the boss where we could get at least 15 hrs UA time.

That afternoon she became upset when I didn't instantaneously support her in a child raising decision. I felt that it was something she had unilaterally decided and was now asking me to carry out. I eventually did, but not without a few questions first. This angered her.

Then as we were talking about why DD had come home from school upset and yelled at her, I made the apparent mistake of saying that DD acts that way towards her because she doesn't feel safe opening up her in a constructive way. This has been an issue between them for a long time now, but apparently Dad can't say that. This information was extremely hurtful to W.

Saturday I got up and tried to run the house by myself as best as I could, install dishwasher, cook for kids, etc. (Offered food to W too). Later asked her if she wanted to go for a walk. No response so I went out to throw ball with DS. Received a text: "Go for a walk if you want. Not interested in spending time with someone constantly hurting me and no regard for my feelings".

I responded: "I am sorry I hurt you again. I would like you to teach me how to talk about issues in a way that works for you."

No response. Life goes on.

This afternoon another text "Obviously I'm chopped liver. At the end of my rope and u don't even care. I had enough of this crap"

I haven't responded yet. I am really feeling baited into a fight. Do I go try to get her up? That's unlikely to work well. Try to talk to her? What do I say? I feel like I am being manipulated and it's very hard to support her and give her TLC when this happens. I thought according to Dr Harley we are supposed to walk away from disrespect, etc. so as not to "reward" your spouse. Am I correct in this? What do I do? Go sit on the bed next to her until something happens??

A little surprised no one has anything to say about this.

Wife is up and around, has gone to Dr. for AD's and stronger anti anxiety drugs but is pretty much not talking to us.

Your supposed to walk away from situations where you or your spouse is losing one's temper. It has nothing to do with rewarding your spouse's bad behavior; thinking that way is disrespectful. Conversations need to be safe. You don't walk away from disrespect if it isn't angering you, rather you should seek to understand the source of the issue and correct it. If you walk away due to anger, you need to make your reason clear and promise to readdress the issue after you cool down. If you are walking away from conversations for reasons other than anger, you shouldn't be, particularly since the act of walking away seems to be something that is really offensive to her. Watch out for your disrespectful judgements directed toward her. They are apparent to me as a third party, and I am sure they are offensive to your spouse.

Mr Eureka, thank you. I plead guilty as charged to having disrespect towards her actions. I do respect the hurt feelings she has because of things I have said and done, have begun work on many of them, and invited her to teach me how to improve.

I guess I did not make it clear that in this most recent incident it is not a conversation- she became so upset that she went to bed and would not talk except for the texts she sent me, which I responded to immediately as stated.

I never walk away from an actual conversation, only when she becomes extremely distraught and unresponsive.

Well, I am kind of in a posting mood, plus some very good things have been happening for us. An update for those who might need some encouragement in their situation...

Wife went on AD's again and is responding well. I rearranged my schedule at work so I can take 2-3 hrs in the middle of the day for UA time with her. Even though a lot of it is at home, and Dr.Harley says more time should be taken away from home, it has been a great improvement. Will continue to press for more outside-the-home activities as W gets more on board with MB principles.

Had last Friday off work and spent the whole day together. She is feeling quite lethargic with the change in daylight, sleep problems, and the AD's, but we had some great IC as we lazed around, and I was very pleased, if I must say so myself, that I didn't get frustrated like I used to in the past when a little affection didn't turn into SF.

This week I am taking 2 days off work, farmed out the kids, and we are going on a anniversary getaway for 4 days!
(Note to self-pick up flowers on way out of town.)

Hopefully others will see this and be encouraged to work on improving their own UA time.

I have noticed, and hopefully MB vets can comment, that a lot of what I have called LB's on her part (tone of voice,etc) have almost disappeared when I started meeting her emotional needs. I wonder if this is common?