Guilt is a great thing. It is our conscience's warning system that we are doing something wrong. I would tell him to EMBRACE THE GUILT. Being guilty about being bad is a good thing, not a bad thing.

The bigger concern here is the grief of his VICTIM. Soothing his "wounds" is a distraction from taking care of his bleeding victim.

The way he assuages his guilt is to give you just compensation. As long as his affair has gone on, I suspect his "grief" is centered around the loss of the OW.

Also, if he threatens suicide, I would call 911. He might want to go see his doctor about getting on anti-depressants. It will be no easy feat to withdraw from the addiction of a 12 year affair.

Agreed! This behavior is similar to what my H did. I remember thinking how bizarre it was that I was consoling HIM, after all he'd put ME through.

Turns out that we were NOT recovering...It's been very different this time around. Your WH is NOT the victim here, you are.

I believe your WH is still very foggy. I also agree that anti-depressants may be a good idea. He needs to stop feeling sorry for himself and work on comforting you and giving you just compensation.

Glad you saw this post, SM! I remember when your husband pulled that stunt!

A-HA! Okay, I thought it odd that it "set in" so quickly. My brother told me that a long time from now this may happen, but here naive me was literally thinking, WOW, those MB forum people are AWESOME that they set him straight this fast lol.

Thanks, and on with my day I go! StrongerMe, I am going to go and read your thread.

SugarCane, sorry, somehow I missed this post yesterday.

No, we stopped seeing our local counselor soon after we purchased the MB course.

We had been saving up for the coaching part of the program, but then I thought that it more important to pay for a poly. I don't need a poly right now (except in the near future to verify NC with OW from this point on). Honestly, with the carp that I heard yesterday, I can't imagine what else H could be holding back from me...and if there was more, then I don't see how he DIDN'T commit suicide many years ago.

We have literally NO savings left here, after using it to pay off what we could of the debts that accrued during the A (and we still have crippling debt to pay off). Now with H having to quit his job, we may be going totally under. In spite of that, should we purchase the coaching part of the program NOW so that we get a coach?

On the list today is for us to finish the letter to Dr. Harley that we began a bit ago. I am tempted to do it myself, but I am taking to heart what you all have said about making my H pull the load too. If he doesn't get a rough draft finished by the afternoon, then I will do it myself.

No, never. Not when we lost a child, not when his Dad died, not when he lost his fingers. Never in his whole life, let alone after D-Day.

He has come up to me and held me and told me how sorry he is, but never anything like this. Last night was after I had gone to sleep, and I woke up because he was sobbing hysterically. When I asked what was wrong, he was all-consumed with wracks of sobs so much that I couldn't understand him. He was totally drenched in tears and just kept saying that he didn't deserve to live because of all of the people that had died for us, what he had done to me, how he'd ruined everything, etc.

Blindsighted, I don't recall whether you have the latest version of Surviving an Affair. Chapter 7 covers the "First Steps on the Road to Marital Recovery." Dr. Harley discusses how very painful it is to the wayward spouse to separate forever from the source of the addiction. The more addicted, the longer and deeper the relationship, the more painful the withdrawal and the deeper the depression.

Dr. Harley states "during the first few weeks after total separation from the AP '(he uses the word lover, but I CAN'T') the depression that accompanies the loss can be so pervasive and overwhelming that nothing makes the wayward spouse happy."

He states that the feelings of withdrawal and grief are very similar. They are both emotional reactions that are associated with the loss of a very valuable part of one's life, something that provided great pleasure and satisfaction. But since the AP is always available, there is always the strong temptation to end the pain and contact the AP again. Every day there are many temptations to contact and they each have to be suffered and eliminated. That's why it's so necessary to remove every single way possible to contact the AP.

"After total separation from the AP, the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks and then fade almost entirely over the next six months. But if a slip occurs and contact is made with AP during withdrawal, the clock goes back to zero and the period of withdrawal starts all over again."

It is critical that you and your H eliminate every possible contact with the OW. Your H should see a doctor for anti-depressants that he should use for a few months until the depression begins to lift. Dr. Harley often recommends Wellbutrin, because it has no sexual side effects. (My H has used Wellbutrin the past with very good results and no unwanted side effects.)

During my H's withdrawal period, he was terribly sad and said to me that he had "lost a friend." Blech. It's really hard to be patient through withdrawal. After withdrawal, he experienced a period of self-loathing that lasted a while. He would go from being so happy in our newfound love and quickly move to self-loathing for bringing such devastation into our marriage. We both had our own roller coasters to deal with.

I wouldn't wait for your H to write the letter with you. I think it's imperative you get Dr. Harley's expert advice. Hopefully, he will agree to call in with you and he can speak with both of you.

I agree strongly with this. The letter I want you to write asks Dr H about what you, the BW should do, and what you should demand from your H. Would Dr H insist, as we do, that you move, or can you recover staying in that area? Does he recommend a post-nup? I've heard that he does not recommend them in WW/BH situations, and in fact he did not think one was necessary in my own WH/BW situation - but that was having spoken directly to my H and coming to the firm conclusion that my H did not want a life with OW and wanted a life with me and the kids. Does the 12-year affair, and your health insurance needs, make a difference in your case?

My exWH gave the "I deserve to die and am worse than X" speech. Was it an emotional breakdown, guilt, or manipulation? Idk but it worried me and ticked me off at the same time. I ended up punching him in the face by the end of the night and the next morning (after his mother arrived) took him for a psych eval.

A WS by the name of Greenmile ended up in the psych ward after a meltdown. I don't know whatever happened to him and his BW.

okay I emailed Joyce. Thanks to all, and especially SugarCane for making me such a super template.

Here is what I wrote:

Hello Dr. and Joyce Harley,

I am writing to you at the urging of the posters on the MB forums. I am BlindSighted2013. My husband is DumbMan. We have been married for 32 years and we have two adult daughters.

My husband had a 12-1/2 year affair that I just discovered in April and confronted on May 7, 2013. My husband immediately promised to go no contact, but I discovered on October 22nd that he had indeed still been speaking with OW by telephone from May 14th until Sept 14th. At that point, we started at square one again, and sent a NC letter and did a mass exposure. I found out on October 27th that my husband had borrowed someone's cell phone from work to leave a message on the OW's phone to warn her of the exposure.

The board has helped me through this this weekend, and my husband has promised (again) to have NC. Also, on Sunday morning, my husband revealed a BOAT LOAD of more trickle truth regarding the affair.

We at the board also debated if he should EVER return to work, and I made the decision last night that, with the info that I know, I do not feel safe having him return to work at this time.

The trouble is that due to his affair, our finances are beyond devastation. Our credit is now royally trashed. We own a home here and are not behind on payments, but we indeed may never be able to purchase a home somewhere else. He COULD quit all work and just work here with me, but at MUCH less pay than he has had before, and also it would cost us to pay for our own hospitalization in that case (I had ovarian cancer last year so we could not risk going without).

What should I do? What should I demand from my husband? Would you insist, as the board does, that we move? Or can we recover staying in this area (OW lives 30 minutes away).

My husband HAS said that he would sign a post-nup and sign everything over to me automatically and go to instant divorce in the event of EVER having any contact again. Even though our finances are poor, he does have a size-able retirement account.

The board has recommended that I ask this of you due to the extended length of my husband's affair.

I AM willing to walk away and lose everything that we have ever had in order to protect our marriage and recover. My husband has STATED that he is willing to do the same. Can you please advise us? (btw, we did purchase the online course from you but obviously we are not in recovery at the moment, so we have not worked on it since October 22nd)

"Or can we recover staying in this area (OW lives 30 minutes away)."

You need to say a bit more about this: the stuff about the exit from the freeway and how you sometimes need to pass it. He needs to get a full picture of this.

Tell them who OW is and how he met her. I can't remember: is she a client? Someone from a bar? Whore on a street corner? Dr H will need to know the means of contact in order to advise you about the job, and moving.

"The board has recommended that I ask this of you due to the extended length of my husband's affair."

This question is not crystal clear. Tell him you have heard that he does not recommend post-nups because of their effect on recovery, but you were told to enquire about the need for one in your case, because the affair was so long and entrenched, and because your H maintained contact after D Day. He is clearly badly addicted and the affair is deeply embedded into his life. If you make financial losses and move house away from all your support networks and he does this again, your personal losses will be great and you would appreciate some fiancial guarantees against these. Should you seek guarantees in the form of a post-nup?

Something like that.

I don't think you purchased the online course, otherwise you'd have access to Dr H's private forum and you would already have a coach. I think you purchsed the Home Study Course. Is that correct?

yes SugarCane, we purchased the Home Study Course and we do not have access to Dr. H's private forum and we do not have a coach.

Should I send a second email Sugar, so that he has all of the information?

I always feel like I type books on here and I was trying to be brief lol

Yes, she was a client from an old job. Haha to street corner, nah that would be too exposed for her.

I read too quickly and didn't realise you'd already sent it.

I think my points are important so I would send another if it were me, but he does have the key facts already in your email.

BS, I would also send them your phone # so they can call and speak to you. Dr Harley might have some questions. If you have already sent this information about the OW, just send another email.

It is totally fine to send another email - I have done this in the past.

Mine too. And said this very thing on his SAA thread.

While it would be great to believe he finally is getting it, the pain his actions have caused you, I would remain cautious and not read too much into the tears right now...

Just want to re-emphasize this...you will notice a big change when he's actually feeling empathy FOR YOU, rather than pity for himself. Promise yourself you will maintain high standards and hold him to the just compensation and protection that YOU need, not what is "comfortable" or easy for him. This is NOT punishment, but what you both need to recover your marriage.

I've got to agree. Unfortunately waywards tend to be drama queens who make a lot of noise and try to "fix" things with words instead of actions. Several of the men I've posted to on this forum have been particularly bad about it.

Most of the time, it's just a tale told by an idiot: full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Look to the actions required for recovery in Dr. Harley's plan and observe/measure whether they are being carried through with or not. If they are, eventually your love bank will cause you to feel safe. Attempts to force your love bank to feel that way before the FWS has actually done the work required will be ineffective and set you up for serious pain later on.