I guess that I do feel that way sometimes, but no not in a bad way. Mostly in a way that if you had known my H before he met OW, he was not like this. So it makes me sad is all. He is tolerating it well.

He is also tolerating and happy to get to go to work tomorrow with a babysitter. I heard him tell my brother tonight "thank you and I won't let you down". We'll see.

My Dad wants me to leave him after the trickle truth that came out on Sunday, so maybe I am sounding more distant because I am mentally dealing with that. My Dad is the one person in my whole life that loved me no matter what. He has a pretty big influence.

Yes I have already pulled credit reports after the first CC company sued him, and I have all of the cards and the numbers and the passwords. He really did not do anything other than low-lying (lying, get it?) $20 charges here and there. It just all added up big time when I didn't know it and was only sending in the life insurance amounts (or whatever was coming out of that account). Couple that with interest and it became bigger than us.

It means soooooo much to me to read that you think that I will feel this way too (integrated and very CLOSE again).

It's my mother in law (H's Mom) and I know it matters not for your point, but my MIL is not my most favorite person lol. YES she can hire someone else and will have to if I say so. I guess I don't quite want to say so...because she WON'T hire someone else...she is rich after FIL's passing and so tight with her money that she WILL go down there herself to save a buck. But yes, I guess that I should point that out when Dr. H calls...we do not HAVE to drive by that freeway entrance/exit.

Thus far, H and I have made date nights out of it. We go there, collect the rents for 15-30 minutes, and then we have FUN. We go to the casino with their $10 free money play each week lol (and once we won big with their money, so we got to have a nice dinner on them), we go to the beach, we go and walk the shop-fronts, we just have fun in the city (we are very rural here). So it hasn't been a biggie to me, except for the risk that OW may just happen to be getting on or off that freeway ramp at the same time as us. H says that she never goes that way, but can I believe him?

"Except for" that little risk?

You do realize that Dr Harley has already addressed this issue exhaustively, right? He has written and spoken EXHAUSTIVELY about moving to be away from the OP in order to avoid this kind of thing. The reason is because every time you and your husband run into the OW, your marriage goes back to Day 1 of recovery. And the affair will most likely resume.

You don't have to ask him AGAIN about that part. Have you read his exhaustive writings about moving away? Have you listened to his numerous radio shows about this?

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

I've got it Melody, I just do not like it. And I just do not know if I want to live like this. I totally got the reality on Friday when he was loyal to OW and warned her. I also totally got that I can choose to leave right now. I don't want to leave right now, but I also don't want to live like this. And I WILL HAVE TO. I totally get it, and I am trying to come to grips with it. Reality has set in.

I can't have AOs. I can't talk about the A to him. I can't release my anger. I can't have any anger. My life has been friggin' annihilated and I GET IT! I just did sooooo not deserve this and I am having a pity party. I think that I have to have my own pity party, away from H, except that NOW I cannot BE away from H. I know that you get it. I know that everyone reading this gets it. I am just venting.

You've known me long enough on here to know that I will straighten up.

Honesty...it is really tough for me to see JUST how wayward and enmeshed he is, and how he thinks so simply about the total tsunami that he caused. It's just as much MY fault because I did not see it for 12 friggin' years. WHO doesn't see it for 12 years? Me. The smart one. The class valedictorian in HS and college. I did not see this right under my nose.

AND now...it's doubly hard to see that he IS trying and he still doesn't get it. WHY doesn't he get it? Because I did not train him how to treat me for the last 12 years. I totally thought that he was incapable...not sure if I have shared that here before...but I went to my corner because I just chose to accept who he was and when the going got tough, he didn't do it...so I had to. Lost a child, lost his fingers, child with lupus, whine, whine, whine...HA! He showed ME now that he is QUITE capable of pulling off the biggest scam ever. I am IMPRESSED! Anyone who knows me in real life would be impressed with how anyone could pull one this big over on me.

And I exposed far and wide, so I am presently the biggest talk of the town. While he warned her.

The TRUTH of the matter is that he is a good, good man. He is entrapped in a horrible nightmare, and I want to walk away and leave him to his dreams. The trouble is that I DON'T REALLY want to walk away, I want to help. But I don't know HOW any more!!!

Please don't beat yourself up. Your WH's A is NOT your fault...and NEVER will be.

Sorry you are struggling. Prayers and hugs to you, BS2013.

Thank you SO much black_raven, I needed that. I will be better tomorrow. I am just soooooooo tired.

Love ya all!

Well, I mean everything, the totality of everything Dr. Harley describes that would apply to your situation. That would include NC, and the Basic Concepts, and probably more as well. Be sure and read Surviving an Affair (and listen to the radio show!)

What you should be focusing on is whether or not HE is focusing on the plan. Yes, NC is the starting point for that. You should be looking to see if he is carrying out extraordinary precautions. But of course, don't stop there.

Good Morning All! I am in a better frame today and so very grateful for this post markos. It probably sounds silly, but even after my living and breathing MB for nearly six months, I am having trouble knowing where to "start" over at this point.

I feel a bit like a deer in the headlights, and I don't know which way to focus on first to save myself (first order) and then continue with the effort to save my M (second order at this point).

I'm very much a to-do list, action, type of person, and I need that priority list lol.

markos, I needed (again) to read that NC is first. Actually that covers saving myself AND saving my M, doesn't it.

So...what I will do today is:

*take care of myself (water, exercise, breaks from work). I'm going out to lunch with my H's aunt (my favorite).

*verify all phone numbers in and out on H's phone for last two days

*WORK!

******

H is working with my brother today. He has already texted me twice. Once to ask how I am feeling, and once to say I love you...to which I replied "glad that you are thinking of me I need to see actions to know that you love me". Was that okay to say that? Or was that an unkind remark to his good intentions? Honest, please.

H had another meltdown last night, just like the night before...he was hugging me after we got ready for bed and one second telling me that he loves me and the next second it started...huge sobs, wracking shoulders, sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm so sorry, I can't believe I let you and my whole family down and ruined our lives. I'm scared, I don't want to lose you. I answered like Melody said and told him to embrace his emotions. But then he started with I can't live with this pain, I just want to die, and I yelled STOP IT or I will call 911. He did stop it. <---was it okay that I yelled STOP IT or is that an AO?

Okay, I am off now to get to work! Have a great day everyone!

BS2013,

I have been reading along, but haven't been posting. You are getting such good advice already. I do want to share a little of my experience.

There are many similarities between your situation and mine. My H's affair didn't last as long as your H's. However, my H did take a long time in withdrawal, exacerbated by contact after 16 months of no contact, continued lying, as well as my response to his lying - expertly leveled DJs. It was a vicious cycle of his lying and me being upset and angry.

After discovering the false recovery (email and phone contact with OW), I insisted on several things in order for me to stay in the marriage. One was that H talk to his doctor about anti-depressants. He ended up being on them for about a year. We also shored up holes in the EPs. H was able to contact OW via his mother's phone/computer, with her knowledge. We have not seen his mother since that time.


We had already moved six states and 1000 miles away from OW. It had been in our plans even before discovery. So, we were lucky in that. I can tell you though that the first time we drove through the state of GA (nowhere even near Atlanta), I shook like a leaf. Every time you pass that exit on the freeway, it will be a potential reminder.

The best solutions always are to follow Dr. Harley's advice. He has had SO much experience that he knows where the pitfalls are and knows that short-cuts inhibit recovery. One of my requirements was that we attend an MB weekend (what is now the on-line program, with access to a coach and private forum). Previously, we had been working the at-home program. But, H was not totally committed to either the program or the marriage. With the entire program, I could turn to the coach to handle those sticky things that H would have turned around and "gaslighted" me about.

I guess my bottom-line comment here is that I hope you get your husband to consider anti-depressants, sign up for the complete program, and move.

Hugs to you, BS2013. You are a remarkable woman!

AM

Good Morning all! Sorry to be MIA last evening, but Joyce Harley called me yesterday and we may be on the radio show on Friday (Joyce has a slight possibility that she would have to cancel, in which case we will re-schedule).

She needed my H to write an email for them. I helped him with that last evening, but he did not send it yet because I told him that more info should be included...last evening when we sat down together, H looked at his thread and markos has submitted some bible passages for him. H broke down reading them (good!) and then we talked for a long while.

After reading those passages, H called his brother in Michigan and told him all about the A and what he has done to me.

Then I asked about H's withdrawal and pointed out that by hiding it, he is not being radically honest. H admitted to me that yes he is missing OW very much and he doesn't think that it is fair to tell me that and hurt me more. I told him that if he doesn't tell me that, then he is acting odd to me and I am keeping my distance, and so what good will that do? Plus then, what does he think will happen when he can't take the pain of withdrawal? I asked what exactly he was missing...and he explained that he is missing the easy and relaxed relationship <--the fantasy

He shared with me that he would go there and a beer was ready when he walked in, she learned all about his interests and had pre-recorded shows that they watched together, on the couch with no interruptions from children or phones, etc. He said that they would just sit and hold each other while they watched tv and then sometimes sex would happen and sometimes not, but either way he felt safe and cared for, and supported and admired.

Okay so that is a fantasy, I get it, but I DO HAVE TO TELL YOU ALL that I felt as if H was finally "letting" me into his secret second life. It felt "good" to hear it, and it felt horrible to hear it. AND it makes me realize truly that we could have made this same environment together except that HE DID NOT participate in the M to try to work on changes together. I didn't want to LB him by saying that to him, and I'm not sure what to "do" with this feeling.

We also made more EPs:
1) we are no longer going on the freeway near OW's house. AT ALL. EVER. Instead we will go 1/2 hour out of our way on rural roads to get to the big city via the west side instead of the east side.
2) if Dr. H recommends it, we will immediately use our $ and pay for the coaching portion and skip our bills this week
3) no more cash. Ever. H will now use our debit cards even if he stops at McDonald's for coffee.

Hi armymama, thank you for sharing. I have read your original thread and so sorry for what you went through also. I have not looked to see if you've made any more threads (but I will!) and yet I wanted to ask you how your relationship is now? The thing that I am seeing with my H is that yes it has been lying all along, but I don't think that it is ONLY because of his secret second life. I am starting to think that he may have learned to gaslight as a child when dealing with his own Mom. That is neither here nor there...except for the fact that if we are to stay M and learn RH, then we've got a tough hill to climb.

Soooo sorry to read that your own MIL enabled your H to carry on the A. Good for your H (and you!) that you no longer have contact with her.

This is fast becoming such a dream for me! I WANT for us to move. We have a huge messed up financial situation here right now, but IF we truly will work together and un-bury ourselves, then I feel certain that we can pull it off. Maybe not for a long while, but if H will become all-in and realize that he must protect me from himself, then that will be a BIG step in my being willing to work hard right along with him to clean up his mess.

Yes, I agree about the coaching. I wonder just how H will handle typing things out, he will probably frustrate our coach to no end. I showed him how to use the voice control on our cell phones and then copy that to his email and then copy THAT to the MB, but man alive it takes him 1/2 hour to get out a single paragraph lol. There has to be a better way, but we will cross that bridge when we get to it I guess.

THANK YOU armymama! Thank you for caring enough to read my posts and share your story. And thank you for the compliment!

Your H should strongly consider getting a prescription for ADs. The medicine will help him get through the withdrawal period. We know you know this, but to be separated from the object of one's addiction is painful and very difficult.

One thing Dr. Harley will often ask is what did the OP offer that might not have been happening at home. If it was a relaxed atmosphere without interruptions all curled up with each other, well, that's something you could do. Ignore the telephone during your cuddle time and simply enjoy the pleasure of being close together.

As your H begins to meet your ENs more, you will begin to admire him more.

As to money, you had said in your email that although your finances are decimated, your H has a healthy 401k. Is that correct? You could use those funds to pay off debt and start a new life. Lots of people look at their 401ks as though they are sacrosanct, but once you pay the 10% fee for taking it out early and have the taxes withheld, the money could be utilized.

If you live where you could rent out your house, you could get out pretty quickly. For a rental situation, you would have to make it decent and all should be in good repair, but it doesn't have to perfect, as it would be if you were to have to sell it. You could find a good property manager who will check credit and get references for a monthly fee.

Two people can live pretty inexpensively. You don't have to purchase another home right away; you could rent a small cozy place for a couple of years, even a small apartment. We had to move to a remote place where we were allowed only the bare minimum of our things. All the rest had to be put into storage. We brought no pictures for the walls, no china, just six place settings of our basic kitchen set, pots and pans and linens. The apartment we lived in was furnished. Life was wonderful even with very little. We had so much more time to play and talk instead of dusting around stuff.

I've lived the opposite of your life, Blindsighted. Instead of living in one place for the last 32 years, I've moved to about a dozen different places. I didn't want to move either, but moving to a new place far from the triggers is liberating. You and your H will have the opportunity to build a whole new marriage where you could be in love with each other.

I'm so happy you are going to get to talk with the Harleys. My H and I admire them both a great deal. They are so friendly and helpful.

My H and I have a great, loving marriage now. I love him, but I think he loves me even more. He is hugely remorseful about the affair and his actions surrounding the affair. He is an honest man now, tells me the things he would like for our present and future. We nearly always follow POJA. When we slip - usually because one of us sacrifices too much for the other, we correct our course.

AM

Totally agree with you. He quit smoking two weeks ago and that was a 30 yr FOUR PACK per day habit. So he is also going through that withdrawal, although he says it is now only minor cravings.

I'm so happy that you put this last sentence in there LWFH. I don't know how to be open to risking him meeting my ENs right now. We did cuddle last night and he was very attentive and caring, but my mind seems to go "blah, blah, blah" lol. I know that I have to be open to LB$, but I think that I will feel safer about that after we speak with Dr H.

Thanks. We do not *think* that this would work since his retirement is through his union, but we were going to go to the hall together and ask on Friday. Now if we do the radio show, that will have to wait, but we WILL seek the info ASAP. We may still be able to borrow a (small) amount from our annuity through the union, but we will have to weigh our options.

All great points. It's obvious that you are well versed at doing POJA....LWFH, you are fantastic at thinking outside of the box.

Yep, you've hit it on the nose, LWFH. We have lived in this house since our oldest was nine months old. That is why I do feel like H bombed our entire life...it's not just our M, it was my entire stability here, business and all (although I can move the biz anywhere). I AM truly hopeful about moving, though! And I adored your idea about renting this place. Those thoughts are future dreams though...most important now is speaking with Dr H and having totally firm EPs, and my SEEING that H is truly all-in...my rose colored glasses are broken (hopefully for good) and now I do recognize that I need to set the bar WAY higher than I even thought that I had set it.

WONDERFUL to read this, armymama! Especially the part about how he loves you even more.

And how very cool that you can recognize the slips in POJA due to sacrificing. What a fantastic spot to be in.

okay all, we were on the show today, and also Joyce called me back afterwards and we covered a couple more topics.

Joyce does not feel that we need to purchase the coaching right now as we did do the work on our own, and she said that they are willing to help us again if we get into more jams.

Also, Joyce and I spoke further about my husband's withdrawal and acknowledged that we do need to share that together.

We are off now probably for the rest of the day. Thank you for all of your help.

1. Long Term Affairs are a bit of a different animal. The WS reallllly may indeed want to end it and have NC, but it is way bigger than them. My H lasted exactly one week in NC. Like LWFH pointed out to me, the WS is thinking with their emotions, and emotions are not too trust-worthy. Take heed of this!

2. Because of it being a LTA, the BS cannot "rest" on the EP's that are number 1-8 in Dr. Harley's SAA book. I *think* that what happened to me is that after the first initial re-contact with OW, it took about one second before my WS thought COOL!!! YES I am going to get a wonderful marriage that fulfills all of my ENs and I'll just lay low and agree to everything so that I can safely keep on with my SSL (secret second life) and none will be the wiser. Then I can keep on cake-eating for life. Because of the EP's in place, I did catch him...by WHY go through that?

3. I exposed after D-Day #1, but I had not found MB, and so I only exposed to select people whom I decided would positively influence our M. Then I found MB and I didn't know any better when people asked me if I had exposed. If I had exposed CORRECTLY, I wouldn't have had to go through six months of heart-ache. DO NOT randomly decide who will help your M and who won't. NOPE! EXPOSE on CNN if you can find a way to do it! WITH pictures! Read the link in MelodyLane's thread, and do it as big as you possibly can.

4. I finally did a nuclear exposure (still wrought with some problems, but man did it go far and wide). After exposure, the WS will endure a shock very similar to what we did as BS on D-Day. We just wanted the pain to end. So does the WS want (their) pain to end. They will show emotion like you've never seen from them before (and I had 32 years to witness emotion from my H...emotion after exposure was MORE than at the death of our child, MORE than at the death of his beloved father). Be kind, but IGNORE IT ALL. It is withdrawal setting in!

5. After exposure and after withdrawal sets in...you are STILL in limbo. The FOG is NOT gone, and so you can't really be back to interdependent behavior because your spouse is still talking out of their butt. It is going to take TIME for the fog to lift.

6. THE single most important thing to concentrate on during the time after exposure and while the fog is lifting is NO CONTACT. Every day, you need to snoop as if your life depends on it (your future does depend on it). YOUR feelings don't really matter right now to your WS, sorry but they still DO NOT MATTER...the important goal is NO CONTACT. It's totally (warped I know) helpful to offer for your WS to tell you when he is thinking of her, and shock of shocks, he WILL! I know, but it really does let you know where you stand as far as O&H and also the status of the clearing FOG.

More of an update tomorrow...H and I had decided to spend about 1/2 hour posting to the board tonight, and then one thing after the other took our half hour lol.

He had troubles transferring it from his voice command on his phone, yada, yada, and then I got a call that I had to take. I had started an update message and then it flew to oblivion somehow when I took my call.

Anyway, wanted everyone to know that I (and we) are hanging in there, working really hard on things, and I will be back in touch tomorrow.