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I am new here, been reading awhile and am hoping to start the actual program as soon as we have the money.
Long story short (ish), we are 14 months from Dday. WH had a 2 year affair. He has not seen her since. The last year has been so bad. WH has some MEGA denial issues and has lied to me sooooo many times about affair details. His refusal to "own" his actions led me to file for divorce. 2 weeks before it was to be final (this was 9 days ago) I cancelled the papers and decided to try a different way of handling things. In many ways it is a version of plan A. This is a foreign concept to me but as we recently started going back to church and fixing our relationship with God - things look better.
HOWEVER - he has yet to "correct" all his lies.
I have asked a few questions in the last 9 days and after quite a big fight he finally told me the truth on a few lies. There are still a bunch out there. I have expressed how hard that is for me, to know OW knows things about my WH that I don't. How do I handle this? It's eating me alive.
BS - 42
WH - 46
Married 6 years, together 10
Initial Dday - 9-20-12 over 2 year PA/one sided EA on his part
NC established on Dday, he refuses to face and own what happened though but says he wants the marriage
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I am new here, been reading awhile and am hoping to start the actual program as soon as we have the money.
Long story short (ish), we are 14 months from Dday. WH had a 2 year affair. He has not seen her since. The last year has been so bad. WH has some MEGA denial issues and has lied to me sooooo many times about affair details. His refusal to "own" his actions led me to file for divorce. 2 weeks before it was to be final (this was 9 days ago) I cancelled the papers and decided to try a different way of handling things. In many ways it is a version of plan A. This is a foreign concept to me but as we recently started going back to church and fixing our relationship with God - things look better.
HOWEVER - he has yet to "correct" all his lies.
I have asked a few questions in the last 9 days and after quite a big fight he finally told me the truth on a few lies. There are still a bunch out there. I have expressed how hard that is for me, to know OW knows things about my WH that I don't. How do I handle this? It's eating me alive.
BS - 42
WH - 46
Married 6 years, together 10
Initial Dday - 9-20-12 over 2 year PA/one sided EA on his part
NC established on Dday, he refuses to face and own what happened though but says he wants the marriage
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I guess I should have explained what he is doing. I have as much transparency as you can have with a computer programmer, he works at meeting my needs, we spend a LOT of time together, he will pray with me, hold me when I trigger etc. it's mostly just all these lies are in between us.
He does struggle with remorse - he ends up in a shame cycle more than remorse sometimes. He is working on that with our pastor. He has been in IC for awhile now and has dug pretty deep on why this happened.
BS - 42
WH - 46
Married 6 years, together 10
Initial Dday - 9-20-12 over 2 year PA/one sided EA on his part
NC established on Dday, he refuses to face and own what happened though but says he wants the marriage
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Welcome to MB.
Who was OW? Has he given you his list of EPs? Did he write a NC letter?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Here is a great letter to print out for your husband to read. It is known as "Joseph's Letter": "To Whomever,
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world." Have you considered having your husband take a polygraph? Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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He took a poly, "passed" it but was lying.
NC letter was never sent but I didn't find support until the affair was over awhile and I spoke with the OW several times (she actually gave me lots of info on lies he was telling me, I know not normal but she never lied to me. He met her craigslist. The ad was for NSA sex but he really wanted a full on affair. They only met a handful of times but texted daily for a long time. He "loved" her but she didn't know and didn't feel the same about him. He never told her. I read a years worth of texts so I know this part is true. He has no unaccounted for time or money, is great about proving he is at work when I ask.
His parents, work and our children do know about the affair.
He has lied this whole 14 months. I have had so many days I got more I go I lost count. He is STILL lying. He claims he doesn't know what he's lying about big he doesn't dig to find them.
BS - 42
WH - 46
Married 6 years, together 10
Initial Dday - 9-20-12 over 2 year PA/one sided EA on his part
NC established on Dday, he refuses to face and own what happened though but says he wants the marriage
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Hi Warrior Princess, welcome to Marriage Builders. CAn you tell me what part you think he is still lying about? Will he come here and speak to us?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks for the replies. It's mostly detail stuff now. For example - the one he admitted on Friday was that when she spent the night, before going to sleep, he held her as he fell asleep. I am a need to know everything person. It's so much worse now that he has lied to me soooooo many times. Honestly most days the details don't matter, knowing he is lying about them is what gets me. He has held on to any details that showed his feelings for her - he just admitted he loved her a month or two ago. In the grand scheme of life these details don't matter - what matters is he is ok with asking me to rebuild something when I don't fully understand how it broke. If I know he can live with lying to me now about something I already know about - there is NO safety for me.
I am not sure if he will come here. We were on a different message board and he ended up hating it. He lied in his postings and in his responses. He never really used it to help himself anyways.
BS - 42
WH - 46
Married 6 years, together 10
Initial Dday - 9-20-12 over 2 year PA/one sided EA on his part
NC established on Dday, he refuses to face and own what happened though but says he wants the marriage
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PW, once the basic details of the affair have been revealed, and it seems like they have, the affair<s> should never be brought up again. You need to have basic details such as times, dates, where they went and what they did, but milking details beyond that will keep you both sick. Every time the affair is brought up and rehashed, you and your H go back to Day 1 of recovery. You make yourself unpleasant to be around and you make yourself sick with anger and grief. Don't do this to yourself anymore. I dragged out our own recovery by YEARS with this bad practice.. The sooner you stop talking about it, the sooner you will recover your marriage BECAUSE ------>listen carefully-----> when your marriage becomes a happy, romantic relationship, your mind will no longer go to the past. When you are happy in the present, the mind doesn't tend to go to the past. I NEVER think of the tragedy of the past because my mind is in the present. Focus on making your relationship GREAT today, because that will make you feel better faster. Rehashing the greatest tragedy of your life will not. And part of making your marriage great today is affair proofing your marriage. It alarmed me when you said "I have as much transparency as you can have with a computer programmer...." Do you have access to his computers? If there is any part of his life where there is not transparency, I would find a way to correct that. Not having total transparency will trigger you more than anything.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Have the conditions that allowed him to have an affair been changed? For example, how did he manage to spend the night with someone? Does he travel for a living? A complete change in the environment that led to his affair is warranted.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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PW, once the basic details of the affair have been revealed, and it seems like they have, the affair<s> should never be brought up again
I don't know how to quote. I am struggling with this one. How do you trust someone you KNOW is lying and is in denial? He has lied for a year, portraying the affair as a completely different animal than it was. How do I move into my future when he lies about the past? Maybe if I had started with MB and wasn't in the position I am now where I KNOW he's lying (he agrees btw) - this isn't radical honesty. Am I just supposed to say -
"Ok I know my husband is lying, he agrees but it's ok but I shouldn't talk about his affair."?
As far as the computer goes - I do have access to all his electronics but it's not like he couldn't hide whatever he wanted to. He is a computer genius so really not much I can do. I have access to his phone and computer but again - he could easily hide anything he wanted to. I honestly do not think he's doing anything now. I have a fine tuned bull detector now. I can read him like a book,
I always could I just didn't trust myself. I do now. I know I would know and not stick my head in the sand again.
BS - 42
WH - 46
Married 6 years, together 10
Initial Dday - 9-20-12 over 2 year PA/one sided EA on his part
NC established on Dday, he refuses to face and own what happened though but says he wants the marriage
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The conditions were we had planned a family vacation and he said he had to work. The kids and I went without him. He encouraged me to do it. He admitted it's because he wanted to be with her. We no longer spend nights apart with the exception of a woman's conference I just went to. One time he was with her in the morning before I woke up. Their "relationship" was mostly texting when he was at work or before I woke up or when he went to bed early to text her.
We now go to bed together.
BS - 42
WH - 46
Married 6 years, together 10
Initial Dday - 9-20-12 over 2 year PA/one sided EA on his part
NC established on Dday, he refuses to face and own what happened though but says he wants the marriage
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I don't know how to quote. I am struggling with this one. How do you trust someone you KNOW is lying and is in denial? He has lied for a year, portraying the affair as a completely different animal than it was. How do I move into my future when he lies about the past? As long as you know dates, times, places, names, activities that is sufficient. Don't keep bleeding it for minute details like "how did you feel," "did you love her?" I am confused about what you think he is lying about since you said he confessed his affair and now there are only minor details? Did I misunderstand you? If you have the basic facts, then don't bring it up again. Every time you bring it up, you hurt yourself and you hurt him. It is horrible habit that will keep you in misery. As far as the computer goes - I do have access to all his electronics but it's not like he couldn't hide whatever he wanted to. He is a computer genius so really not much I can do. I have access to his phone and computer but again - he could easily hide anything he wanted to. I honestly do not think he's doing anything now. I have a fine tuned bull detector now. I can read him like a book, Then I would figure out to make it so he CAN'T hide anything from you. If he CAN hide something, then that means you both have not done a complete job of affair proofing your marriage. Doing these things will help you feel better FASTER, I promise!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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We no longer spend nights apart with the exception of a woman's conference I just went to. Recovering couples should not spend ANY nights apart. Why couldn't he go too? I realise you probably thought because it was your plan, not something he engineered, it was OK. But MB rules should apply now and apply to you both. Dr Harley says nights apart are an invitation to an affair even if the couple are madly in love and there has been no affair in the marriage.
Last edited by indiegirl; 11/13/13 09:41 AM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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[quote=Warrior_Princess] As far as the computer goes - I do have access to all his electronics but it's not like he couldn't hide whatever he wanted to. He is a computer genius so really not much I can do. I have access to his phone and computer but again - he could easily hide anything he wanted to. I honestly do not think he's doing anything now. I have a fine tuned bull detector now. I can read him like a book, Then I would figure out to make it so he CAN'T hide anything from you. If he CAN hide something, then that means you both have not done a complete job of affair proofing your marriage. Doing these things will help you feel better FASTER, I promise! Warrior, can you hire someone to come to your home and check his electronics for you?
DDays - six months of them THANK YOU God and Marriage Builders. We never knew that it could be this good! 
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Maybe if I had started with MB and wasn't in the position I am now where I KNOW he's lying (he agrees btw) - this isn't radical honesty. Am I just supposed to say -
"Ok I know my husband is lying, he agrees but it's ok but I shouldn't talk about his affair."? Hi Warrior_Princess. I did not find MB until over a year past DDay. My marriage is now loving, happy, and at peace. The program works regardless of when you found it. The key is to use it. I remember thinking the same thing...what do you mean never talk about it again. WTH? The purpose is to change your focus to the present and things that you CAN control. The past is the past and you cannot change it. What good has it done you to find that he held her at night? What does it matter? Of course he held her and "thought" he loved her  , he was having an affair! That's what they do. They were in a fantasy world. Focus on what your DH is doing now to protect you and the marriage. What EP's do you have in place? Are you spending 20 hours of UA time each week meeting each others top EN's? Once you start to work the program which will rebuild the romantic love, and respect...honestly, it won't matter what he did or said to her. It was a fantasy and not real. You are what is real. Stop fighting with him to get more details. That will only keep you stuck in the past and in the resentment. You will never recover that way.
ME: BW
HIM: FWH
Married 18 yrs
DDay 09/2008 and 12/2008
Recovered
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I may be just stubbornly holding on here but I can't wrap my brain around this. I know I don't need to know the tiny details. It's not so much even the tiny details - it's the fact that these questions WERE asked and he lied. He admits many answers were lies. HOW do I move on knowing he is still ACTIVELY choosing to lie? I would feel the same if he lied to me about non-affair stuff. HOW is it healthy for both of us to know he is STILL lying to me now, while we are trying to move forward?!? I seriously cannot wrap my brain around that being a healthy option. It goes against the radical honesty. I could see myself applying these concepts if new questions arose I my head. I could let them go as they don't matter. The ones that I already asked and he lied about - I just can't see how that's a good idea. I actually have a lot of empathy for where he was, I do not blow up when he finally admits to a lie, in fact I usually THANK him for his honesty. I am not trying to just get my way here - I am totally open to being wrong. I want to fix my marriage I just don't understand this concept.
I appreciate all the posts to try and help me understand. I really do.
BS - 42
WH - 46
Married 6 years, together 10
Initial Dday - 9-20-12 over 2 year PA/one sided EA on his part
NC established on Dday, he refuses to face and own what happened though but says he wants the marriage
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HOW do I move on knowing he is still ACTIVELY choosing to lie? What is he lying about?
ME: BW
HIM: FWH
Married 18 yrs
DDay 09/2008 and 12/2008
Recovered
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Warrio_Princess...I completely understand your need to know everything and your feeling like he is lying. I am in the same situation and have a thread of my own. I had an affair 10 years ago and we never entered a recovery. It is a long story, but he has a lot of resentment and anger and on top of all of that he started two EA's while out of town. I found out and I brushed under the rug and moved on. I guess my way of saying well it wasn't a PA like I did (I now think it was a PA) and not to mention the EA/PA lasted 5 years with one of the women. Now here we are this year and he started another EA at a new place of employment and well, its a long story. So although I agree with Pokerface completely, I understand how hard it is being the "have to know" person. You are always looking and feeling like there is another lie, another piece of evidence, etc. I am not sure if our WH's think they are protecting us by not telling us certain things, but it is not helping either of us I know. What about writing him a letter that was recommended earlier. That is my next approach.
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