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Originally Posted by Zhamila
If men are truly victims of 'selfish single mothers,' then why do men commit the vast majority of murders, rapes and assaults - and always have - even in societies where everyone stays married and children are raised by two parents?

The vast majority of men who commit violent crimes were raised by single mothers. I researched this about 15 years ago and the percentage of men who came from fatherless homes in prison was something like 75% at that time. There is some fascinating research done on this issue in the book, The Wonder of Boys and another that Dr Harley recommended is Fatherless America by David Blakenhorn.

I have not read this whole thread so I might be missing the point, but I don't believe that single mothers are inherently selfish. Many single mothers are single way because they left bad marriages. Tragically, many are that way because they come from a culture that has devalued men so they never bothered getting married. I don't see the point of demonizing women.

I do think that single mothers of boys need to educate themselves and do what they can to involve responsible men in the lives of their sons. The truth is that women do not do a good job of raising boys when they are alone. We have a tendency to stamp out aggressive traits rather than guide them in a positive direction. Single mothers just do not do a good job raising boys. Dr Harley makes the point that children from single mother homes do poorly but those who come from single father homes do as well as those from 2 parent families.


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Originally Posted by Zhamila
If men would step up and act like the great husbands they are meant to be, the divorce rate would plummet, children would never be born outside of marriage, and we'd go a long way toward solving our social ills. Has everyone forgotten that it takes two people to make a baby?

In the black American culture, 70% of children are born outside of marriage. They don't even bother to get married. And it takes 2 people to destroy a marriage. Women are just as responsible for divorce as men. If women would step up and act like the great wives they are meant to be, the divorce rate would plummet, wouldn't you agree?


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Zhamila
If men are truly victims of 'selfish single mothers,' then why do men commit the vast majority of murders, rapes and assaults - and always have - even in societies where everyone stays married and children are raised by two parents?
The vast majority of men who commit violent crimes were raised by single mothers. I researched this about 15 years ago and the percentage of men who came from fatherless homes in prison was something like 75% at that time. There is some fascinating research done on this issue in the book, The Wonder of Boys and another that Dr Harley recommended is Fatherless America by David Blakenhorn.

I have not read this whole thread so I might be missing the point, but I don't believe that single mothers are inherently selfish. Many single mothers are single way because they left bad marriages. Tragically, many are that way because they come from a culture that has devalued men so they never bothered getting married. I don't see the point of demonizing women.

I do think that single mothers of boys need to educate themselves and do what they can to involve responsible men in the lives of their sons. The truth is that women do not do a good job of raising boys when they are alone. We have a tendency to stamp out aggressive traits rather than guide them in a positive direction. Single mothers just do not do a good job raising boys. Dr Harley makes the point that children from single mother homes do poorly but those who come from single father homes do as well as those from 2 parent families.

Completely agree with this.

There is a very definite "correlation" between single motherhood and violent male behavior. But this does not mean there is a causative relationship. Perhaps these single moms are raising sons because the dad is in jail (genetic predisposition to antisocial behavior?) or the dad beat the mom (again, genetics?) or he just abandoned her and the children (genetic predisposition to selfishness?) or maybe single moms all buy the same toothpaste, and it increases aggressive behavior in boys?? - NOT necessarily the single mother's fault.

My point is that men have struggled to control their violent, agressive behavior through all cultures and centuries - not just in single-mom-homes-in-the-US-the-past-30-years. Regardless of whether they are raised by two parents or one, the issue lies with men learning to control their behavior - and how we as a society can support them in this.

Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Some of you will read this article and say, “What about the things the men are doing and why didn’t you mention how daughters are affected when they don’t have a dad?” I’ll deal with the dishonorable men, deadbeat dads and daughters in another session. I cannot cover all of life’s issues in one article.

Would love to see the follow-up article in this series: MNG, any chance of posting it?


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Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
BECAUSE of how his mother abused him and his little brother, Joseph detests the female gender with an unforgiving passion.

In less than two weeks after saying, "I Do;" he physically assaulted his new bride. He has been abusing her ever since.

Joseph kicked [his daughter] across the room one night when she attempted to stop him from physically assaulting her mother.

Did you comprehend what you just read? You just read how generational curses are started. Even worse, Joseph's daughter is a likely candidate to believe that all men are dogs and become an angry Black female.

What amazes me about this author is that he is blaming an abusive man's behavior on "circumstances" or "how we was raised."

I think we can all agree - as Marriage Builders - that the ONLY person responsible for abusive behavior is the abuser. No one "makes" a person angry. Or abusive.

Not even the mom who raised him - by herself.


Last edited by Zhamila; 11/26/13 10:36 AM.

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In Latin America, high rates of violence aren't being blamed on "single moms" because there aren't very many. Violence here is being blamed on "lack of economic opportunity."

http://www.humanosphere.org/2013/06/charting-violence-latin-america/

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nobel Peace Prize winner and former Costa Rican president Oscar Arias recently spoke with Humanosphere about the extremely high rates of violence in countries like El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras which he attributed to lack of economic opportunity coupled with the trade in illegal drugs (which are not unrelated, of course).

As a region, Latin America has made tremendous progress in improving life expectancy and growing its economy. However, many countries in this region are paying a huge cost for violence, especially when it comes to young men. To see how violence in Latin American countries compares to other countries around the world, Katie Leach-Kemon at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation�s (IHME) used the online Global Burden of Disease data visualization tools.

[Sorry, visit the site to see the chart]

This figure, which you can access at IHME�s website online, shows the different causes that lead to early deaths in Central America, the Caribbean, countries with ongoing conflict like Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. The figure shows trends for men ages 15 � 49 and accounts for differences in population size.

El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Colombia, and Honduras stand out as the countries with the highest rates of years of life lost from intentional injuries, which include lives cut short by homicide and suicide. By far, homicides are the driving factor behind these trends. El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Colombia, and Honduras have even higher rates of homicide than Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. To see detailed breakdowns of homicide (interpersonal violence) and suicide (self-harm), visit the IHME website.

We spoke to Professor Rafael Lozano, IHME�s Director of Latin American and Caribbean Initiatives, about the different factors behind these high rates of violent death. Like Arias, Lozano also pointed to young people�s inability to find jobs and their need to make a living luring them into the drug trade despite the high risk involved.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regardless of circumstance, please keep the blame for abuse squarely on the abuser. If we can all do that, we'll be closer to solving the problems of violence and abuse in our world.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Zhamila
If men would step up and act like the great husbands they are meant to be, the divorce rate would plummet, children would never be born outside of marriage, and we'd go a long way toward solving our social ills. Has everyone forgotten that it takes two people to make a baby?
If women would step up and act like the great wives they are meant to be, the divorce rate would plummet, wouldn't you agree?

Hm...I'm not sure if I agree with this. Dr. Harley says that women are 'wired' for partnership and men generally resist it.

The vast majority of calls and emails to MB radio are from women who want help fixing their marriages - they have tried everything they can to get their husbands' attention. When men call/write, it's usually because she's given up, he is "blindsided," and he wants to win her back.

These are just my impressions from listening/reading his material, as I stated here:

Originally Posted by Zhamila
Dr. Harley himself says that he is harder on men in counseling, that they usually have more work to do to become a great partner. He says women are emotional "responders" so when the man does a good job meeting her needs, she will give him all the love and care he's ever dreamed of.

But I guess we can ask Dr. Harley ourselves?


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Well Zhamila.. I did some quick googling and there is more to support the idea that single fathers do quite well compared to single mothers. However its only the past decade that courts are beginning to grant fathers sole custody of children. There is a lot more positive info regarding dads as single parents than thge counterpart and the effect on children it has.

*shrugs*

Edit: spelling

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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Dr. H talked about a study on the radio show about children raised in single father home's compared to single mother's.

Here it is: MATERIAL REFERENCED: Fatherless America by David Blankenhorn

Dr. Harley's Radio Clip on Fatherless America Study at 7:20 Mark
Did you listen to this Z?


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Originally Posted by Zhamila
Why is all the blame being laid at the feet of single mothers?

I haven't read everything here, but I don't see that "10 mistakes" means "all the blame."


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Dr. H talked about a study on the radio show about children raised in single father home's compared to single mother's.

Here it is: MATERIAL REFERENCED: Fatherless America by David Blankenhorn

Dr. Harley's Radio Clip on Fatherless America Study at 7:20 Mark
Did you listen to this Z?

Good clip. Listened to it on my commute.

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I read the 10 mistakes now, but not the whole text. I saw some things I agreed with, and some things I disagreed with. I didn't see anything that laid all the blame at the feet of single mothers. I saw one man's opinion about ten things mothers should not do.

(Personally, I don't feel I was "feminized" by my mother taking me with her when she shopped for clothes. It did make for some long miserable hours except when I had a good book with me.)


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by Zhamila
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Zhamila
If men would step up and act like the great husbands they are meant to be, the divorce rate would plummet, children would never be born outside of marriage, and we'd go a long way toward solving our social ills. Has everyone forgotten that it takes two people to make a baby?
If women would step up and act like the great wives they are meant to be, the divorce rate would plummet, wouldn't you agree?

Hm...I'm not sure if I agree with this. Dr. Harley says that women are 'wired' for partnership and men generally resist it.

Zhamlia, I said that as a response to your disrespectful comment that if "men would act like the great husbands they are meant to be...." which does assign blame to MEN. You don't want blame assigned to women but have no qualms assigning it to men. Women are just as guilty of wrecking marriages as men are, after all. We are big gurls here and can take accountability for our part in the ruination of marriages and poor child rearing. We both know that many women choose to have children out of wedlock, so there is blame to assign on both sides.

However, that was not the point of the article. The point was about mistakes that single women make raising their sons. That is a very important issue that has been raised by Dr Harley numerous times. In fact, he is the one who recommends the book Fatherless America.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I look at it not as resting blame solely at the feet of women.

I look at it as a call to arms for men.

This would be one of the many reasons that Dr. Harley states that in the case of dysfunctional marriages and infidelity, it is usually the better choice for a husband to do his best to repair the marriage.

The endpoint case here is that it is usually better for children to be raised with two parents with a healthy marriage, vs a single parent. The caveat being a healthy marriage.



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Originally Posted by Zhamila
In Latin America, high rates of violence aren't being blamed on "single moms" because there aren't very many. Violence here is being blamed on "lack of economic opportunity."

http://www.humanosphere.org/2013/06/charting-violence-latin-america/

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nobel Peace Prize winner and former Costa Rican president Oscar Arias recently spoke with Humanosphere about the extremely high rates of violence in countries like El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras which he attributed to lack of economic opportunity coupled with the trade in illegal drugs (which are not unrelated, of course).

As a region, Latin America has made tremendous progress in improving life expectancy and growing its economy. However, many countries in this region are paying a huge cost for violence, especially when it comes to young men. To see how violence in Latin American countries compares to other countries around the world, Katie Leach-Kemon at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation�s (IHME) used the online Global Burden of Disease data visualization tools.

[Sorry, visit the site to see the chart]

This figure, which you can access at IHME�s website online, shows the different causes that lead to early deaths in Central America, the Caribbean, countries with ongoing conflict like Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. The figure shows trends for men ages 15 � 49 and accounts for differences in population size.

El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Colombia, and Honduras stand out as the countries with the highest rates of years of life lost from intentional injuries, which include lives cut short by homicide and suicide. By far, homicides are the driving factor behind these trends. El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Colombia, and Honduras have even higher rates of homicide than Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. To see detailed breakdowns of homicide (interpersonal violence) and suicide (self-harm), visit the IHME website.

We spoke to Professor Rafael Lozano, IHME�s Director of Latin American and Caribbean Initiatives, about the different factors behind these high rates of violent death. Like Arias, Lozano also pointed to young people�s inability to find jobs and their need to make a living luring them into the drug trade despite the high risk involved.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regardless of circumstance, please keep the blame for abuse squarely on the abuser. If we can all do that, we'll be closer to solving the problems of violence and abuse in our world.


The second statistic that follows 1) Lack of opportunity, and 2) a rise in violent behavior in young men is... teenage pregnancy.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I look at it not as resting blame solely at the feet of women.

I look at it as a call to arms for men.
I guess I missed that part...I suppose that's because the article was called, "10 Things Single Moms Do to Ruin Their Sons," rather than "A Call To Arms For Men." wink

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
The endpoint case here is that it is usually better for children to be raised with two parents with a healthy marriage, vs a single parent. The caveat being a healthy marriage.

Totes agree.

Last edited by Zhamila; 11/27/13 01:24 PM.

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
The second statistic that follows 1) Lack of opportunity, and 2) a rise in violent behavior in young men is... teenage pregnancy.

Where is this in the article I posted? The article was about violent behavior in Latin America, and the supposed causes thereof. Perhaps I overlooked something?

My point is that violent behavior occurs all over the world, as do social problems. Single moms have not been raising children in droves for millenia, nor in every country. So it's pretty ridiculous to say that single moms are 'ruining' their sons and causing all the social problems we see in the lower echelons of American society.

Correlation: YES
Causation: NO

There are greater forces at play.


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Originally Posted by Zhamila
If men would step up and act like the great husbands they are meant to be, the divorce rate would plummet, children would never be born outside of marriage, and we'd go a long way toward solving our social ills. Has everyone forgotten that it takes two people to make a baby?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If women would step up and act like the great wives they are meant to be, the divorce rate would plummet, wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by Zhamila
Hm...I'm not sure if I agree with this. Dr. Harley says that women are 'wired' for partnership and men generally resist it.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Zhamlia, I said that as a response to your disrespectful comment that if "men would act like the great husbands they are meant to be...." which does assign blame to MEN. Women are just as guilty of wrecking marriages as men are, after all.

My statement is based upon Dr. Harley's article "Why Women Leave Men," which outlines the fact that women file for divorce twice as often as men, usually because of neglect. Of COURSE it takes two people to create a great marriage! But in general, women are more interested in their marriages in the first place.

* Women are generally the first to see a problem in the marriage, and almost always, her sensitivity is correct.
* She sees a problem developing much earlier than the husband does, so she'll start bringing it up...complaining about it.
* And he will respond, "You know, the problems you're introducing are too trivial for me to worry about right now."
* So the problems build and build until they become overwhelming.
* And by the time he understands that they've got a serious problem, she's out of the marriage.

This is why I said that if men would become great husbands, their wives would likely NOT file for divorce as often as they do: i.e. the divorce rate would plummet. BONUS: fewer single parents all around.

And as to children born out of wedlock: MAJOR PROBLEM. However, much of this is driven by the lack of quality partners in the lower stratas of society. Joblessness, drug use, violent behavior, incarceration...not a ton of great choices for these women. They would do better to NOT REPRODUCE, but since people have freedom of choice in our country, they have babies.

Both men and women share responsibility for our society, the state of our marriages, and the raising of our children. My issue was that this article very disrespectfully pins the blame on single mothers, largely ignoring any other factor. Plus it wasn't based on any research - was purely anecdotal and emotionally written. Not a great piece of literature, in my opinion.

The way people jumped in, agreeing with it, distressed me greatly.


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I don't agree at all that is it disrespectful to point out that single mothers do not do a good job of raising sons. That is a simple true fact that is well known by psychologists and sociologists.

I am not interested in getting in a debate over who causes the most divorces, I think the blame can be equally applied, however, it should be noted that there is an epidemic of women who have children out of wedlock. This is at epidemic proportions in the black community, for example.

If you are interested in quality research that supports these facts, you should check out the books I referenced above.


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"And as to children born out of wedlock: MAJOR PROBLEM. However, much of this is driven by the lack of quality partners in the lower stratas of society. Joblessness, drug use, violent behavior, incarceration...not a ton of great choices for these women. They would do better to NOT REPRODUCE, but since people have freedom of choice in our country, they have babies."

I agree. And many of these women who are having sex out of wedlock are not quality candidates for marriage. Most men don't marry women who are promiscuous.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
"And as to children born out of wedlock: MAJOR PROBLEM. However, much of this is driven by the lack of quality partners in the lower stratas of society. Joblessness, drug use, violent behavior, incarceration...not a ton of great choices for these women. They would do better to NOT REPRODUCE, but since people have freedom of choice in our country, they have babies."

I agree. And many of these women who are having sex out of wedlock are not quality candidates for marriage. Most men don't marry women who are promiscuous.

Agreed. And I wouldn't want to marry a man who's promiscuous either.
It's a joint problem (NOT a DRUG Reference, LOL)

Last edited by Zhamila; 11/27/13 06:02 PM.

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