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Eden,
I really applaud the progress you have been making and would like to acknowledge that you have gained some much needed strength since your initial posts on here.
I would like for you to get a prospective regarding the advice you have been given so far.
This forum is called marriage builders, Dr Harley has an outstanding record and experience at saving marriages, no one here takes divorce lightly and in my 5 years of reading daily on this forum I haven't come accross many cases where divorce is adviced. Yet your situation is so dangerous and your kids wellbeing is at such a risk that you have been adviced to unequivocally separate from your WW right now and file for divorce, there is no way round it and there is no magic pill to make this better. You need to prioritise your kids and your safety.
I am 100% certain that there are many other incidents like the pizza incident that you have not disclosed either because you don't want to or because you don't realise the significance of such behaviour but either way there is zero excuse or tolerance for such conduct. If this woman wasn't your wife and you saw this behaviour would you make excuses like you are now??? A murderer can't redeem himself because he was reading books on how to manage his killing urges yet he still went ahead and murdered someone.
Forget about the emotional needs, forget about the contact your WW is having with the OM. Your focus right now is to secure the wellbeing of your kids and inform the right people of the things that have happened and are happening in order to secure full custody and safety of your kids. That's it, that's all you should focus on right now.
You can't meet your WW emotional needs because she is in an affair and even after the Affair ends you will not be able to meet her needs as she will need to follow steps in order to manage her anger and her behaviour. The more you dwell on this the less your focusing where you should right now.
My opinion is that your WW has no intention to reconcile but she is telling you what you want to hear in order for you to drop the RO. Be smart about this don't take the bate and eliminate all the unnecessary contact that geprodises your chances of getting the RO. Keep it simple, keep to the rules of the RO and focus on the kids who are in much need of stability right now. You can't be a husband right now but you are a father and you are risking loosing that by not being more proactive in protecting the kids. Great post.
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I don't understand this: Regarding the violence with the children (pizza, etc.) I think that she realizes it has been a problem . . . but (she) did always do more reading up on parenting and conflict resolution with the kids than I did. I still have a lot of learning to do in that area. considering you also wrote this: . . . my students when I was a teacher. How could your wife's informal reading on the subjects of parenting and conflict resolution been more extensive than the formal training you must have received in order to become a school teacher? If you worked in public schools, you must have been educated in child psychology and trained to identify (and required to report!) suspected child abuse. Even if you worked in private schools, you must have had some training in those areas. If that is true (and please correct me if it isn't), why have you felt the need to defer to your wife's judgment in those areas?
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Eden, her physical violence isn't a "a problem" it is flat out shocking, dangerous and unacceptable on all levels. You don't have to read a book, or 'realize' a problem to know that raising your hands in anger to your child is wrong.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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My wife's attorney came through with a different proposal yesterday for civil restraints that included my wife going thrugh alternatives to domestic violence program, me continuing to abstain from alcohol, but she would be back in the house right away under those conditions. I told her (my lawyer)that was unacceptable, but she knew that from prvious conversations. I spoke with my attorney only late yesterday since was at work all day. My lawyer proposed to me the possibility of proposing the civil restraint under condition that my wife does the alternatives to domestic violence program, that we do counseling together, but wife would not come back into house until counselor felt it was appropriate. That gives a lot of power to the counselor.
My wife tried to get another adjournment because she has a training at work on Thursday when our hearing is scheduled for, but adjournment was not granted.
I still left it open when I got off the phone with my attorney. I don't know why. I do have to let her know in five hours how I want to proceed. The indecision is really killing me, but it looks like I know what I have to do, go for the RO. My attorney said the trial for RO may not be completed in one day, that it could be drawn out over weeks, months maybe.
Looking ahead, maybe prematurely, would it be worth setting up an intermediary (aside from the lawyers) through which to communicate with my wife, about kids, etc.?
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Why are you simply NOT following the advice Dr. Harley gave you?
There should be NO indecision -- Dr. Harley advised you what to do!
You keep coming here to post, but with no new actions, with really nothing done, because you are not following the direction given to you.
Why?
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I am going through with RO trial tomorrow morning.
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I am going through with RO trial tomorrow morning. Agree very much!! I would stick with the RO order.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I absolutely agree with your decision. Please let us know how it goes for you tomorrow.
W (me) - 40
H - 44
M 15 years, 2 kids
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Now itsvery important that you stop speaking with her in meeting with her during child exchanges
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I did stop speaking wither during exchanges. I do not answer her phone calls. Tonight when we exchanged children I did say "see you tomorrow" but even that was probably too much. She told me that she would not be at court tomorrow because she was prioritizing a work training. I responded "oh" and left.
I was wondering if it would be helpful to bring phone and toll record in evidence of her meeting and contactin OM. Though the affair is not directly part of the domestic violence in question, WW will likely bring up that she was provoked by exposure letters. My lawyer did prepare me for this and told me to give firm timeline of affair events, but did not specifically say to bring call and toll records.
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I did stop speaking wither during exchanges. I do not answer her phone calls. Tonight when we exchanged children I did say "see you tomorrow" but even that was probably too much. She told me that she would not be at court tomorrow because she was prioritizing a work training. I responded "oh" and left.
I was wondering if it would be helpful to bring phone and toll record in evidence of her meeting and contactin OM. Sounds like a great idea! What would he think about you bringing Dr Harley's article on the value of exposure? He is a leading expert in the US on infidelity and is the author of 18 books.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I just read harley's article on exposure again and realized that he says int he case of an abusive spouse he recommemds separation with restraining order before. Only after separation is complete does he recommend exposure and go right to plan B. Contact with violent spouse only restored after enrollment in anger management ansd no contact with lover.
I guess i did not read this before i decided to expose, or I glossed over or forgot my wife's physical violent tendency.
In light of this, I don't know why he recommended divorce in his response to my email. His email did say that divorce is almost the only rasonable end to our relationship.
She has aparently not been contacting OM the last couple days, acording to call records. I'm not saying that I am not going for the RO but it seems like in the article that he leaves some possible hope with plan B if WW does end contact with lover.
Sorry I could not directly quote the article as I am posting from my dumbphone.
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It could also be that there is contact but it's on an affair phone.
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
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wife sent me the followin text earlier today. I did not respond:
"i wish there was a way i could reassure u that i no longer have contact with (OM), nor do i want to, and i want to commit to helping us. I wish we could rebuild trust. I wish you the best."
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Notice how she said "wish I could reassure you" and "wish you the best" and NOT the necessary "here is the proof" and "How can I ease your pain."
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
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It could also be that there is contact but it's on an affair phone. i relly dont think so. She was contacting him into last week on the phone i am checking. She doesnt have the money and she has been contacting her alanon support group regularly thlast several days, who are not supportive of the affair and who she was not in touch with in the weeks leading up to exposure. Of course i dont know for sure but how does anyone know a WW is serious about no contact in a plan a or plan b and is serious about no contact with OM?
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The status of the affair does not matter in your case. Dr Harley didn't advise you to divorce based on an affair - he has helped many couples recover from affairs. He advised you to divorce because your wife behaves in a way which is highly unusual.
It was the MANNER of how she conducted her A, and he behaviour towards you that raised alarm, bells for him, imo. "To continue living with your wife who is in love with another man, totally disregards your feelings by flaunting her affair under your nose, and is also physically violent toward you is asking for permanent injury or even death".
Affairs are quite normal things. We all would have them in certain circumstances. However she is quite an unusual case and Dr H can tell she isn't going to make it to remorse. Physical violence is actually quite rare, too.
Even if she did end her A (which she hasn't) what can be done about her basic callousness and thoughtlessness? Very little.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Eden,
Harley advised me to take similar steps with my ex wife.
I think the criteria he uses is health and safety, and he places children safety high.
In my case, my wife was having an affair with a violent felon. A convicted child abuser.
He advised me to secure the children as long as she was having her affair.
In your case, he's concerned about safety.
Its really not normal to threaten someone with a kitchen knife.
The police don't think its normal, the courts don't, Oprah doesn't, people here dont. Nobody thinks that's normal.
You have lived around her for so long youre probably in a fog of your own; I was too. My wife wasn't mentally all there and everyone (even her own family) tells me they think she's crazy. I just became so accustomed to the behaviors that it seemed normal to me.
As you have separation, you will come out of your own fog and realize that its for the best.
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I wish Pariah were still around to advise on the issue...
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
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