Writer1,

so why are you here?

Same reason, I would suppose, you are here and that is that without MB I would still be in constant domestic strife with my W with no resolution in sight.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

You are one of the most knowledgeable members of this forum, yet as another poster stated, Its like way watching a train wreck in slow motion.

I suggest you just ask her if there was an affair.
Have you done this?

Have you asked her to take a polygraph?

Do you spend 15 hours weekly of UA time together?

Do you follow the workbooks Dr Harley provides?

Gamma,

I still have the impression that you are fixated on the past relationship between your wife and this other man because your needs aren't being fulfilled. How about trying a different approach since this one isn't working? Instead of focusing on whether your needs are being met just the way you like, focus on meeting hers as well. If your wife was in love with you and you knew it, would you care about that past relationship? Are you making a lackluster attempt at meeting her needs until she tells you all the details of that relationship? If you want a relationship with your wife that outshines the one with OM2, you are going to have to commit to caring for her in a way that outshines OM2. All the information you need to do that comes from her present complaints (or past ones you have ignored) and Dr. Harley's writings.

Every time she makes an effort to meet your needs and you respond with some comparison to OM2, you create the distance and lack of passion in your marriage.

The more time you spend working on deception, the more damage you do and the further from your own goal you get. You are showing her that you aren't caring for her, protecting her, and being there for her and she can't possibly meet your needs in the face of that.

Jedi_Knight,

I suggest you just ask her if there was an affair. Have you done this?

Yes I have, about every 5 years, I get differing answers, all very short, WW is clearly uncomfortable about this issue.

Have you asked her to take a polygraph?

No I have not, that is an ultimatum stance.

Do you spend 15 hours weekly of UA time together?

Yes, more on average.

God Bless
Gamma

LifetimeLearner,

Instead of focusing on whether your needs are being met just the way you like, focus on meeting hers as well.

According to WW I meet almost all of her needs particularly since MB, and I do focus on WW needs. WW often says she is sorry for caring for others and putting me at the end of the list while I put WW at the top. This is what WW says to me so you question it's accuracy, but it is what WW says.

If your wife was in love with you and you knew it, would you care about that past relationship?

Yes I would care, honesty is the ultimate just compensation, so much so that I might forgo retribution on OM if I get it.

Are you making a lackluster attempt at meeting her needs until she tells you all the details of that relationship?

No I feel no desire to mistreat my WW as a result of WWs past mistake.

Every time she makes an effort to meet your needs and you respond with some comparison to OM2, you create the distance and lack of passion in your marriage.

To be fair I have never said to WW that I am inferior to OM2, I have said to my WW that she was enrapturedly in love with OM2. WW did say to me that she was so in love with OM2 that she would never feel the same about me, and confirmed that some years later.

God Bless
Gamma

I didn't mean to convey a lackluster attempt is mistreatment. However, the "accidental" run-in with that guy and the false Facebook account is not honesty on your part. The comparison to OM I was talking about was your own internal comparison whether you say it out loud or not. You are keeping emotional distance from your wife when you do that.

Now, you may put her at the top of the list, but you could be poisoning that effort with your lack of honesty as well as doing things that are not all that effective in meeting her needs.

If you stop focussing on OM and become an expert at meeting her needs and not committing Lovebusters, she may then feel safe to tell you everything you want to know. The way you are going about it now will make sure she never tells you.

Gamma,

"No I feel no desire to mistreat my WW as a result of WWs past mistake"

Yet you are abusing and mistreating her, and you know it, for the sake of something 20 years ago! Truth is Gamma, you try to come across as a nice guy and a victim signing off with the God Bless', but you have to be an ogre in your living room with your wife the way you are treating her. No sympathy here!

Tom

Lifetime - this guy needs a kick in the butt instead of attempted understanding!

Gamma - you refer to your wife as WW - that is disrespectful on your part, and it tells me you are indeed still, after 20 years in awe over her long-past OM, and not truly in love with your wife! And, she no way loves you due to your response to her! I've ben married for 45 years Gamma - she is in a nursing home - but as I think back thru my marriage to Char I have occasionally thought what maybe every husband thought - possibility of an affair. Fortunately for me it didn't happen while we were together (she is in a nursing home now). The main thing I can cite is communication with each other that kept us close. That leads to a lot of things.

You, on the other hand, go behind her back to disparage her for something that happened 20 years ago!! The real deal with, as you imply "she couldn't be in love with you" is between you and her to resolve. You are in love with playing the victim, and not your wife~ Yea I think you also like compassionate and caring people like Writer and Lifetime to hold your hand, but the truth is Gamma that many, many husbands love their wives and try to make them happy, and do not disparage them as you are doing with your wife.

I think as many have suggested, you need to counsel with Dr. Harley for your sake, and not continue this epic.

Ttom

There is no retribution to forgo.

Gamma is not doing things the right way.

However it is not disrespectful for him to call his wife a Wayward Wife. His WW withholding the truth has kept Gamma locked in the past. Keeps his wife a WW.

His WW wants him out of the past then she has to tell him the truth.

It appears she would rather dance around the elephant in the room. And, Gamma gladly joins in dancing with her. Because he will not push getting the truth. He will play around and do things as accidently on purpose having his WW meet the OM.

What fear holds him back? I can not answer. Though the only thing for him to do is schedule a poly for his WW.

My wife will not tell me the truth. I can not get myself to push harder.

To any WW's reading. If your BH never gets the truth. He will be haunted. There will be no time limit where your BH will lose the need to know what happened. Thirty plus years for me.

My wife pretends that she does not see my need for the truth and how it impacts us. Keeping her secrets are more important to her then us.

True, true, true. There have been so many lies over such a long period of time, I know I will NEVER get the truth, not even with a polygraph. Some lies have been so tightly woven into the fabric of the past that my H probably believes they are true, and would pass a polygraph. (We both saw this happen - we both firmly believed a lie (and related supporting lies) were the truth until we stumbled across evidence (an old passport) exposing the falsehood).


EXACTLY. And then, how can you feel safe in the future?

BV

As I was thinking over this thread, I remember this: that after the engineered run in with OM2 you made behind her back, you said there must be more to that relationship than you knew because she was more apologetic for a while after that. This seems to have pleased you. This is horrible, her apologizing to you for something you manipulated to happen.

You have shown us you are a manipulator and deceiver. You have shown us you have no respect for your wife or are all that caring for her. She might apologize for you having her at the top of your list while she puts you last, but maybe it's because it rocks the boat less for her to agree with you about how crappy she is than for her to let you know that you aren't being caring to her.

It appears you can't hear what we are saying - why say anything more? Your wife is in the same position. You behave like you know what the truth is, it's just a matter of getting the hypocrites to agree with you, most especially your wife.

And have you considered there is no more for her to tell about her relationship to OM2, but sometimes she's close to telling you what you seem to want to hear, even if it's a lie, to finally get you to stop? Then, she might stop on the edge thinking about what new hell you'll give her and decides to stay with the devil she knows.

Stop the control play and you may find something better than you believed possible. Keep on this way, and this thread will be no different a year from now.

What have you done to change that?

Gamma�s wife is not a WW, because there has been no infidelity. Infidelity requires the breaking of a marriage vow. You can�t break a marriage vow until after you are married.

When you decide to get married, you accept your partner �as is�. It is your responsibility to perform the due diligence necessary to discover anything that is important to you before you get married. I offer the following metaphor:

You have decided to buy a new car. When you sit down with the dealer, you are presented with an odometer statement that indicates the car has 800 miles on it. You ask the dealer how this could be so. He gives you an excuse to the effect that cars get test driven and moved around the lot. You choose not to question further, but say �you better be telling me the truth� and sign the odometer statement and buy the car. You find out one week later that the dealer took the car on a personal trip. You now think you should be entitled to compensation. The dealer tells you to take a hike. Have you been wronged?

I would say no. At the time of sale, you knew that something was up. You chose to buy the car anyway. It is your responsibility as the buyer to resolve all known issues before you buy.

Gamma�s issues with his wife�s past were all known to him before he married her. He chose to marry her anyway. He accepted her �as is� at that point. Due diligence required that he find out whatever facts were important to him before committing. The choice to go ahead and get married anyway was his. While he might now have buyer�s remorse, he really doesn�t have a leg to stand on. He should have exercised due diligence before marriage if these things were so important to him.

I can guess why Gamma got married, anyway. He was in love with his wife. His Giver was willing to accept whatever explanations were offered as sufficient. Since that time, he has fallen out of love with his wife. Now, his Taker wants to have it�s way.

The solution is not for Gamma to continue to grill his wife and seek retribution. The solution is for Gamma to be in love with his wife again. MB is tailor-made to accomplish this very thing. If Gamma were to take MB seriously, he could be in love with his wife, and then he wouldn�t care about the past.

I think you nailed it.

Folks

It's coming up on the time of year to visit OM2, this time alone, I'll try and reboot my original question.

Has anyone had any success get the other person to provide info. when your spouse is locked down tight?

What questions, variations on questions, can I ask OM2 to get him to sing like a bird. Three main opening question approaches I can identify are...

1) WW told me everything after your meeting last year but I wanted to get your side of the story.

2) Can you do me a favor and help me understand what went on with you and WW?

3) If you tell me the truth there will be no repercussions?

God Bless
Gamma

Pose your question to Dr Harley, Gammas. Write to him at the radio show, and don't forget to give the full history.

Honestly, Gamma; if some bloke tracked me down two years in a row after a relationship I had with his girlfriend 25 years ago, before they were married, and asked me about the relationship, I would think he was a nut job and I would stay away.

I would especially think so if he said "there will be no repercussions". This is like saying "I won't ruin your business, spray-paint your name all over town and beat you up". Yeah, right. Why would the issue of repercussions even be mentioned unless revenge were being planned?

If he said "WW told me everything after your meeting last year" I would wonder why he had a bee in his bonnet and did not leave it there, but tracked me down to an event that he obviously has no personal interest in. Again, I would think him a nut job and stay well away.

"Can you do me a favour" sounds less threatening, but I would still be wary of the man who tracked me down twice after 25 years, when he wasn't even married at the time of the events, and wanted me to tell him whether his wife and I had sex.

You intend to hurt your wife with this information.

It's disturbing for you to be obsessed with what happened between them before you were married.

It's pathological.

It will ruin your marriage if you keep pursuing this.

But you've never listened to me before and I know you won't now.

Yes. X2

As I see it...

Gamma has a need for openness and honesty.

He believes his wife is not meeting this need.

Unfortunately, there is no objective way he can determine this; he has to rely solely on her word, and her version doesn't make sense to him.

So, how does he (or should he) put aside his most important emotional need? (Truthfully, I haven't read the Basic Concepts in a number of years, but believe that radical honesty includes honesty about the past).

I'm always interested in this thread because I'm in the same boat - I will NEVER know the truth about my H's affairs - partly because of the passage of time, and partly because I believe there's one (major) lie he "got away with" and he's decided to roll the dice and hope I never find out, as the odds are in his favor. There's no objective source - I only have his word and possibly the word of the OW, whom I have never contacted.

This affair ended eight years ago and I still think about it daily, as I believe there is a lie between us. I do, on occasion, think about contacting the OW, "out of the blue" to see if I could finally get an answer. I'm unlikely to do this, however.

Personally, it makes me feel like a POS that my husband does not respect me enough to tell me the truth. Maybe Gamma feels this way also.

Also, unfortunately, "truth floats" and I believe some day I WILL find out, either through a random third party, or my H will decide enough time has passed, or for some reason will want to clear his conscience.

At that time, I anticipate I will get divorced, but all of us here know that our intentions do not always align with our actions.

Until that time, though, I admit I DO have a little bit of hope that he has told me the truth and his actions are actually meaningful and not just to cover his a**.

The uncertainty, though, is what makes you a little insane. Perhaps Gamma feels this way, as well.

BV

NOT recovered, no claims to be recovered, not interested in recovery at this time. Not looking for help or advice personally, just commenting that I can relate to how Gamma feels and understand how desperation can make you consider "crazy" things.