Yep. I said that at around two years as well.

The "Poster child" I was called at two years. And now newbies accuse me of knowing nothing about MB having never tried....

I wish you all very well. Just know that the spouse that controls a marriage is the one that values it least.That shows up over time.

I wrote this many year sago. It seemed to strike a chord with many longer term recovered folks.

I have seen my own recovery, and that of many other BS follow predictable steps. The steps or stages may be similar but the timelines are very different. Also, once the full set has been run through, stages can be selected in seemingly random fashion.


1.- Devastation.
Fear, shock, confusion, existential pain. Loss of hopes, dreams and every assumption about God and man.
D-day and just afterwards. Don't want to go there again, ever.

2.- Appeasement.
OK, I've been dealt a cr@p hand, but if she will at least stay home SOME of my life support systems may at least function a bit.

3.- Indignation.
Screw that ! I'm stronger now and i WILL NOT suck up any more pain than I have to. Still scared, but not settling for crumbs.
This is where MB gets SERIOUSLY assimilated and applied. Turns hatred on OM as being to blame for affair.

4.- Gratitude.
The affair is ended, WS sends NC letter, exposure scares OM into darkness. THANK YOU GOD ! LA LA LA LA LA ! Still suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

5.-"Advising others how to be wonderfully recovered like we are"

We have like SF 3 times a day, and a restored marriage is a decent possibility again and I am so DESPERATELY grateful to not be in the deepest cr@p imaginable I am hyper-happy. Yessiree, no recovery problems for me !This is it for ever and it only took us a year or so ! Secretly suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

6.-"Ah, theres an elephant in the sitting room"

So day to day life has been OK for a while now. SF, even maybe some ILYs. Kids are happy. Life is ACTUALLY not happier than for years but it is so much better than during the dark times of the affair and withdrawal that it seems that way. But you start to notice the 'elephant' in the sitting room : the enormous baggage of the affair that the BS has been previously too 'fight or flight' or psychotically happy to address. Suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

7.- "I am angry and I don't need you so why am I here ?"

BS has operated in a loveless and hurt world for so long is now almost completely self sufficient. Is no longer even slightly desperate. Does not NEED FWS as whole life support mechananism has HAD to regrow without her while she betrayed and sulked over the months. Feels indignation at both the insult of the affair AND the insult of FWS not contributing HARD to recovery. Feels like an ATM machine and bodyguard and hugely taken for granted. KNOWS FWS still loves OP.

8. - What about MY needs ?

BS has developed a sense of self worth independent of what others think. Has had to. Thinks he deserves MUCH more affection, admiration respect, gratitude. " I didn't put this amount of effort in just to be nagged at all the time, and never be praised. I deserve MORE than that!." The kids happiness at a stable family quells thoughts of rebellion. realises OP was just an amoral scumbag who made the most of an opportunity FWS offered , 100% of the blame for the A is FWS. This hits hard.

9. - Resignation

The kids are happy, I am not unhappy, FWS is happy, this is just my lot in life. Better get on with it.

10.- make or break drive to get a M the BS deserves.

An effort from BS to challenge the peaceful but unsatisfying status quo in an attempt to get BS needs met.


I think I am hitting 10 again.

I can respect that. Never said you didn't know anything about MB. Not at all.

What I said was you are not using it. There is a difference. It makes me very said to hear of your experience and the mental shape you are in.

My point is..there are always options. Always.

The difference between you and I (and I do not mean this as disrespectful to you at all) is that I refuse to live in a marriage void of love and respect.

We all have the right to chose what we want out of life and to live with it.

At any point my W bailed on the MB program, our M would be over. And I would expect the same of her if the role was reversed.

We hold each other accountable. Do you?

eta: The one that controls? That is confusing to me. You know as well as I do that Dr. Harley does not condone anyone 'controlling' the M. It is an equal partnership. Neither you or your wife should control anything but their own choices and actions.

BP, I am truly sorry you are in this spot. I�m in a similar one, although our roles are different. I very rarely post anymore, as I am not following MB advice, so I�m certainly not in a place where I feel comfortable advising others. Commiserating is more my style.

It�s not only that some people don�t want to be better spouses. Some people don�t believe in happiness. And before I am accused of a DJ, I have that straight from the mouth of my H. �There is no happiness. Only existence.�

At least, on a good day, I no longer believe that I am solely responsible for causing him to feel that way.

Hoping you find peace.

I am sorry for the situation you are in.

However, I know many people lurk on these boards seeking Marriage Builders Advice.

It is very dangerous and reckless here to post advice and thoughts that do not align with Dr. Harley's program.

You have chosen to not follow the program and where you are at is the result.

If followed, the program is bullet proof. I know first hand. If not followed, as evidenced by your story, you end up in a worse marriage than before the A.

Good luck to you.

My wife never seriously committed to the MB program. She believes (consolidated by the first 18 years of our marriage) that simply men who love women treat them like princesses, and manly men do not need anything back, are never hurt by words and make up sex fixes everything( a summary of a lot of discussion, but it does not misrepresent her views).

MB is unnecessary in her view.


In a fully realised MB based marriage that is true. I suspect however that such marriages represent less than 1% of all marriages. In most marriages one or the other spouse gets their own way most often without POJA.

The spouse that most often does this is the one who cares least for the marriage. They have all the leverage.

I followed the program for many more years than you have. Big difference is that your spouse also follows the program.

How can you say this?

Step 1 of the program for R is that BOTH spouses agree to follow it. If either spouse does not agree then you are not in R. Period.

Seems to me that you never got past square 1 and never actually started the program. Ever.

Sad to hear. Really. You seem like a great guy with a big heart.

Step 1 of the program (in the case of adultery) is to apply Plan A and / or plan B isn't it ?

Can't remember the last time an active wayward spouse agreed to that.

Step 1 after discovery is to apply Plan A and potentially B.

Step 1 of R is for both the WS and BS to agree to the program!

Can't you see the difference? Sorry to say but you never entered the R stage.

My intentions were to try to show you a different perspective and try to help you turn the corner of your M.

Sorry I was not successful. I will not argue with you.

I wish you nothing but the best.

BobPure,

I was not meaning to argue with you about what you have decided to do with your Recovery. The only thing I was asking was if your wife was having early menopause or a hormone issue, and if this was affecting her actions and desire to work on the M. f(Those durn hormones can cause a lot of problems if even one of them is being dodgy.)

Wish you the best.

The affair was ten years ago. I am pretty sure Dr. Harley would say you shouldn't be applying Plan A, Plan B, or the terms WS and BS to your situation.

What you have is a bad marriage where the wife is not engaged in the marriage. The affair was ten years ago. This is a situation that can and should be fixed without any reference to the affair.

This is a situation that would be addressed by the husband working to fill the wife's love bank. That can't be done if you're still treating it as an affair situation, because you'll keep dwelling on this mistake of the past. We can see this complaint from your wife in what she has said to you, but it doesn't sound like it has been addressed by you.

20YH don't bottle out now !

If you are willing let me lay our the series of circumstances I was presented with, and you can tell me what you would have done, or what I should have done. That will help me to measure my actions against a straight edge.

Let me know if you are willing to help me in this way ! i would appreciate it, honestly !

Hey BBF !

I appreciate the question ! No, Squid has not been in menopause. She is just beginning the first stages of that journey.

And the program would specify that in that case you:

Meet her needs in sustainable, non-sacrificial ways that do not offend your Taker, (in my experience this took a lot of experimentation)

Keep your complaints about your unmet needs and her love busters on the front burner. Are you doing that? And if so, does she feel that your complaints are respectful? (Because if she does not feel they are respectful, then they are not.)

Bob, from what I can see you have a long way to go in learning how to eliminate disrespectful judgments. It sounds to me like you've been missing the mark on several of the above points. You are resentful because you have sacrificed. And while at times you have complained to her, you have done it in disrespectful ways and/or ways that dwelt on her mistake of the past. And at other times I suspect you have buried your complaints - for example, when you started posting here again it seems that your basic outlook was to assume that she will never act on your complaints and so there is no point continuing to talk to her about it.

What happens when you try to take your wife out on a date?

20 year - I agree with everything you have said on this thread.

It is important to realize that recovery does not lead to a state of "happily ever after". Rather, it lead to a very romantic, fulfilling marriage that is, how shall I put it, "high maintenance". It requires lots of attention and work. It is very much worth it, but if you don't keep it up, it will fall apart. That's just the way it is.

Hi Markos !

I am not treating it as an affair situation. I was challenging 20's assertion that no part of MB is executed by only one spouse.

My marriage is unsatisfying new each day, not hungover from a decade old event.

The affair was one of my life's defining events, however.I suspect it has taken years off my life It has only been a couple of years ago that it was in my thoughts at least once every day. I was changed very profoundly by it, for ever.

What keeps the A relevant and hurtful is when some of the criticisms Squid levels at me are the same ones she used to justify her A. It triggers and springs into view. She never took those back.

I may have misrepresented our life: it is not stark and miserable all the time. We laugh, and we parent pretty well. we enjoy each other's company in some way when we go to meals or gigs etc.

But then my wife LBs in major and unapologetic ways and it resets me to zero, and makes me feel foolish for not divorcing her a decade ago. I don;t want to be divorced, but I do not want to be hurt by my wife. She will not or cannot change that You have chosen to not follow the program and where you are at is the result. so I am left with the state I am in: balancing between acceptance and settling.

As I see it the only card I have left is to divorce and see if it triggers squid to fight for our M. Problem is that would impoverish my entire family, hurt my son and most of the time I am not unhappy enough for that to seem like a good bargain to me.

Its a loop of hope and disappointment. If I'd known my M would be like this a decade after I fought the very devil to save it, i would not have bothered.

Complaint : " I feel constantly corrected and criticized"
Response :" When exactly have I criticized or corrected you ?"
Bob : " here, here, here and here"
Squid : " What a loser keeping a list of every little thing I say ! Do you think you are so perfect that i am not allowed to say ANYTHING critical ?"

or

Complaint : " I feel constantly corrected and criticized"
Response :" When exactly have I criticized or corrected you ?"
Bob : " I haven't been keeping notes but I know how I feel"
Squid : " so you can't give me examples, but I'm still mean to you ? You think you're mister perfect, and you're NOT".

The "I think i am mister perfect" is a regular expression of squids resentment. FWIW I am starkly aware of my failings. My forum name has nothing to do with behaviour and everything to do with my playing the guitar like Bob Mould

Bob, my point is that this is not the only card you have left. You have not done everything.

I notice that you leave a lot of my questions unanswered, and it suggests to me that you may be missing a lot of the points I'm making about other things that you can do. There is a lot of hope here, Bob. There are a lot of things you can do.

I understand how your wife's barbs hurt. That is how Prisca treated me in 2011. And most times I complained about it, she got nasty about it. It hurt like hell and was only made worse when I remembered her unfaithfulness at the beginning of that year. But I was also hurting her as well by my disrespect. Learning to eliminate disrespect toward each other was a massive and difficult struggle for both of us.

QFT.

Bob, your wife has no reason to be interested in following MB because you haven't shown her that there's anything in it for her. You have been and continue to be disrespectful. Why, then, should she show any interest in MB?

A wife doesn't have to buy into MB in order for the husband to turn the marriage around, however. But you will have to prime the pump, and in order to do that you are going to have to completely eliminate the disrespect. I know you believe you have already done so, but please listen when we tell you that you are still very disrespectful of your wife.

You can turn this around. You haven't tried everything yet.