That wasn't deleted, Bob. It's stil there:

"I would offer that the secret to forgetting the past is for the FWS and BS to both walk in grace, humility and love. It is a beautiful thing to see."

And you were agreed with.

Bob, your "love and grace" post was very sarcastic and rude, my friend. You were making fun of those who disagreed with you.

I'm very sorry for the terrible situation you find yourself in, and hope that we can someday help you with it. I have been praying for you for a long, long time.

Well if you dont value each other enough to spend time together you will never be in love.
I've been in business...before I got married I was on committees, etc. I understand this now. Your wife's passion is her business/ independent lifestyle

So, you used parts of MB and parts of other programs to make a patchwork more to your liking, and it didn't work. Then you complain that there's no room here for other programs as if this is a closed-minded venue, but your situation only supports the reality that the MB's principles, philosophies, and actions doesn't work as an a la carte program. Markos has relayed many times that when he was demanding about Prisca doing the program, it didn't work. He realized that demanding her to do what MB says to do was him actually not doing MB himself. I think he has some good stuff for you and it would be in your best interest to let him help you.

You still have not told us what your wife's complaints are. What does she "correct" you about? Why doesn't she respect you? (After a little reading, I think what you are needing is admiration, though).

Don't leave just because we aren't commiserating with you about how almost perfect you are and what a great martyr you are for putting up with such an uninvested, unfulfilling wife. Most here want to help you to get out of martyrdom.

Question is, do you?

Bob, I think you may have possibly misunderstood about the grace and love. No one said grace and love were attributes that are not positive in a marriage. Not at all.

You well know that MB's is a process of specific actions not simply displaying feelings such as grace and love to their spouse. Most cannot overcome resentment or R their M after an A by showing grace and love alone. That is not nearly enough.

For some that lurk these boards or are new to MB's may be unfamiliar with the extent of the program, they may interpret that grace and love alone can heal a M after an A. I suspect that is why those comments were made and the mods jumped in.

Many here that try to help folks typically walk a person step by step through the program and take action steps. That is what MB's is all about. Action.

The motto here is Feelings Follow Actions. To get the desired results you want, the actions must come first.

Dr. Harley has addressed the issue of faith on the radio program many times. He and Joyce have very strong Christian beliefs. Some that he council believe that if they just sit back, put their situation is God's hands and wait, he will right the ship for them.
Dr. Harley believes that this is very dangerous. That is why he developed the program the way he did and created ACTION steps. By putting your faith in god AND do the Action steps he created is how he has had the most success!

I really hope you stick around. Many here can offer you a great deal of help to assist you through your difficult times. We want to see your M succeed!

MB is THE tool which can help make your M successful.

May I suggest that Love can be a verb, and not just a noun?

Love is Patient - even when POJAs sometimes can take a week or more, it is the best for the M to follow an intellectual plan, and so when the POJA needs to be shelved until tomorrow's discussion, patience prevails. <----MB tool for ACTION

Love is Kind - even when that annoying habit shows up for the 999th time, thoughtful requests are the kind way to handle the emotion of GRRRR, and thoughtful requests are not selfish demands or DJs. <--- Thoughtful request = MB tool for ACTION

Love does not dishonor others - When speaking of our spouse's shortfalls, we CAN state it that it bothers us when ____, rather than dishonoring our spouse with labels (DJs) <----MB tool of getting rid of LoveBusters ACTION

Love is not Self Seeking - we can work to keep the Taker in line by using the tools of POJA, PORH, and making complaints rather than criticism. <---- MB ACTION

Love is not easily Angered - again, complaints rather than criticism so that our Taker doesn't have to get involved <----MB ACTION

Love keeps no record of wrongs - we can choose to live in the Present and the Future, rather than keeping our focus on the past <---- Dr. Harley's direct suggestion for never speaking of the A again after we have all of the facts ACTION

Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth - we can EXPOSE an affair so that we are bringing it to the light of day, where it has the most chance of dying
ACTION

Bob, I am very sorry if I have hurt you. You have certainly been hurt more than you deserve in life, and the last thing I would ever want to do is to add to that and make it worse. I do not blame you for the choices you have made.

I know what it feels like to be in a lonely and unfulfilling marriage where your wife tells you she just isn't going to do the things Marriage Builders would recommend to improve your marriage and is nasty to you all the time. I know that you are hurting, and I want you to know that there are some more things that you can do that have a good chance of ultimately ending the hurt and giving you the marriage you always wanted.

I love you, friend, and I am praying for you.

I can understand if all the fight is worn out of you. If at any point you find it it in you to try again - differently - I hope you'll consider some of these thoughtful suggestions. (And ignore any thoughtless ones.)

Back when you and I were first on the boards, the recovery part of the program, at least its application on the forums, was just not as streamlined as it is today. My mom asked me not too long ago, "Why do you always recommend POJA now, and yet sometimes AJ doesn't use it when he wants something?"

Well, some parts of R that are crucial now were barely touched on back then. And when the foundation for R was laid without some of these components, it's very hard to retro-add them in later. It can be done, and yes AJ has made HUGE progress in POJA and avoiding IBs, just for one example, but how much easier it would have been if we had understood and implemented these things at the beginning. So in some ways, the help given here now is even better and more targeted than back in our day.

I certainly don't want to push you into doing anything you don't want to. Still, if by any chance you would ever consider it, I do think that MB has some new ideas to offer, or at least new applications of the same ideas.

PS I don't remember every hearing the Squid story before - adorable! You guys were so sweet!

This was beautifully written

BP, got to beat the manure out of the OM.

Some people can never be happy. Perfection is not attainable for mere mortals.

Bob_Pure,

I have spent some time reading many of your posts. There's a lot that could be discussed, but one main impression I get is that no matter how hard your wife tries, no matter how well she is complying to your wishes, it's still not quite good enough for you. Then, when she flags and you're feeling really down about that, you're going to pull out the heavy artillery to get her to straighten up better. That helps no one to fall in love.

As much as you believe you have not been engaging in Lovebusters and meeting her emotional needs, have you asked her (without demands, judgement, or anger) if she sees it that way?

Good insight.

A priori research will always produce the researchers desired conclusion. Your conclusions do not surprise me. I do not agree with them, which will not surprise you.

Your opinion of me is none of my business. The one whose opinion of me is germane has not made any investment in improving our marriage in many years. Recently neither have I.



That brings me back to the original premise of this thread when I started it. All of us, MB successes or not, have to one day check that the best achievable balance between acceptance and settling is tolerable for them. The balance is not tolerable for me right now. I am starting to think perhaps it will never be so I must take the same choice you did to divorce. Without any joy though.

That is the talk of a person that does not want to see where his is coming up short. BP I remember as your story unfolded. And rooting for you to prevail. I still want to see you prevail. You need to regroup. Stop talking like an American politician.

It's sad you dismiss the efforts your wife made as so much nothing.


You earlier said that you talked with Dr. Harley often. Have you actually taken the online course or availed yourself of the coaching? Maybe before you spend money on a divorce, you could set up an appointment with Steve Harley. Would you give this a try? He can help with the most depleted of love bank balances.

I have posted almost nothing in years. You are filling this time with assumed huge effort from my wife, and assumed rejection of same by me.How can you possibly be so certain that I am lying about the efforts expended by my wife in recent years ?

Bob, I can only presume that you have me on ignore, since you replied to some posts but have not been replying to mine.

I am very sorry, friend. Nobody said there were any simple solutions, here, but there are still things you can do. I'm not here to rake you over the coals for things left undone - I'm here to let you know how I worked out of this exact situation, if you want to stay married.

I'm not certain at all that you're lying.

Will you give Steve Harley a try?

Dr. Harley has talked on the radio show about the fact that depression makes things seem hopeless, and causes people to turn away from solutions that could help them. I hope Bob finds a way to manage his depression. If he does, then he may be more receptive to your help.

And neither am I.

I do not judge you -- I was the queen of DJs, and have spent quite a bit of time learning to spot the slightest disrespect in order to eliminate it completely from my marriage. Disrespect is, in my opinion, the hardest of all the lovebusters to eliminate because we hardly ever spot the disrespect in ourselves.

I can see where you are making the same mistakes that were made in my marriage. We've been there, we've made it through, and we'd like to share how. All is not lost.

I was a lot like your wife -- disengaged and disinterested. Markos won me back, but it took eliminating all his disrespect, even in the face of the hate I showed him. I could not begin to feel interested in him or our marriage until he did so. He had to take antidepressants to do this. But it worked.

As a man, you have a great chance of winning your wife back and living a fulfilling, happy life with her. I hope you'll consider it.