I'm starting to get confused from all the replies again (screen is scrolling as I type or read). Not sure if I saw all the responses, but as you can guess, I'm feeling pretty beat up here by now.

I'm not trying to avoid anything, I'm just tired & emotionally worn out. (Radical honesty here.) I feel as confused & violated as H must feel, but in a different way. Not my usual Saturday night, that's for sure.

Thanks for supporting my H. As you well know (finally finished reading EXPOSURE 101) he's going to really need you all for support over time. I really do wish him the best outcome in all this. I wish myself the same!

Thanks to anyone who offered me/us their help in the future. It's nice to know that if I come to see things your way, you'll be there for me :-)

Oh yeah, this means my thread will move to another category now, right? Do we count as "Surviving An Affair"? Or not yet? Wanna know where to look, next time I'm here...

Disrespectful judgments?
Lets talk about flowers instead of boyfriends.
What's your favorite flower?
I'm going to plant zinnias along the street soon. I think they are pretty.

Yes, that's a great point.
Your friend has nothing to fear so he shouldn't be worried about any exposure of his conduct.
Hopefully you can get the police involved. How dare he come between you and your boyfriend! They should beat him with a rubber hose and leave him for dead on the side of the street for interfering with love

Chickenlittle - I really feel for you as I see my own reasoning in the things you post. When I met my husband I also felt he had to fit into MY life and just be happy with my friendships. As long as I talk to the men in front of him and tell him what happened, all should be fine and dandy... Well, it didn't turn out that way. He took huge offence if I would greet my male friends that I have known my whole life and are 20 years younger than me with a kiss, as was the custom in our small town. He got physically sick if my ex came into our shop to do business and have coffee with me or if the married man who had previously declared his love to me would walk in to help me repair our machinery. And I could not understand why he felt cheated on after another male friend told me to consider leaving him.

Needless to say, we had daily fights and as we also worked together and lived together, I felt very relieved if I left him to go to my friends instead. Both of us were constantly depressed. I would scream at him and he would refuse to talk to me, drawing back into a dark world of his own. We both used to self-harm because we just couldn't resolve our fights. My husband (then boyfriend) would have constant nightmares about me sleeping with other men, even though I never ever cheated on him physically or emotionally. The mere memory of the dreams made him physically sick and I had to witness him vomit multiple times because of the emotional pain I was causing. I soon realized I had a choice between my independent life or our happiness together...

I stopped ALL friendships with other men, deleted all men from my Facebook account, gave my husband free access to my phone and all emails and moved to another town 600 miles away where there would be no accidental contact with any exes or men from my past.

Today we are extremely happily married and in love. I can't remember a single fight since the start of 2013 and I think we had about three disagreements in the past three years, which were all resolved very quickly. I don't miss my friendships as what I got in return is worth way more. I made new, female friends and couple friends with whom my husband and I both get along. Although he has my passwords, he doesn't read my private chats with my female friends as he knows he can trust me and he knows they tell me confidential stuff, so there is no need for a secret email account.

All I am getting at is that you can have this too - you don't need to be so stubborn and hurt your husband so much. It isn't about being right or wrong or about your innocence. You are hurting your husband and yourself with your behaviour, whether you are cheating on him or not. It is unnecessary. You can both be happy together and still have a life filled with good friendships.

Disrespectful Judgements are Love Busters that need to be avoided in relationships where you want to retain a love bank balance, such as with your spouse. In other contexts such as this, they can be nothing more than a forceful way of stating the truth.

My sister's H's OW did this exact same thing when we (I went with my sister to confront her) asked her face to face about the nature of her "friendship" with sister's H.

First there was a complete denial. Then she started getting angry and tried to make it seem like we were crazy that we would even suspect anything inappropriate. How dare we! And then later told sister's H to tell us that she was going to be calling the police due to our "harassment" in confronting her and would be suing for slander.

Our response (because we were familiar with MB and the fact that MANY people in an affair use this tactic)? "Please do so, we would love the opportunity to get this all out into the open."

Of course, OW never followed through. I have seen this threat so many times over the years and it's a very good indication that there is, in fact, an affair happening.

And, chickenlittle, we all know why someone moves out of a home. It's never a coincidence that there is an opposite sex friend that the person moving out just happens to refuse to give up that.

We have seen that story over and over and over and over again.

I just wanted to point something out to you that you probably don't realize. This OM is most likely NEVER going to leave his W for you. He hasn't done it yet, even after you moved out. He probably has given you some story about why you must wait or he can't do it yet. Well, most men who have affairs like having a little something on the side but can't imagine giving up their wives. Again, it's something we see over and over again here on the forums.

I know that's gotta be hard to hear but thought you should know....

Suggesting that your spouse is unreasonable is disrespectful.

The real question is whether the two of you are going to adopt the rule of not doing anything your spouse is not enthusiastic about. Since you haven't adopted that rule, I don't see how you can have a problem with anything he is doing. You are doing what you think is right - he is doing what he thinks is right.

Of course, you don't agree he is right, and he doesn't agree you are right. But you might want to rethink the rules you live by together - should you have a rule that you do whatever you want regardless of how the other person feels? Or a rule that you each restrain yourselves from behavior that the other person does not desire?

(Or you could go by the rule that the wife gets whatever she wants and the husband doesn't, but I'm assuming you are too intelligent for that and see how unfair that would be.)

Okay, how about another tact, just to attempt to break through the walls you have put up CL?

I have read just about every source regarding potential infidelity, both Emotional Affairs and consummated Physical Affairs.

There is one question to ask to decide if the relationship you have falls into the first category, especially since you feel there is nothing inappropriate about your OS "Friendship."

If you do not know if your friendship is an emotional affair or not, Ask Your Spouse.

It truly IS as simple as that.

Marriage, Vows and Commitment mean a Great Deal to most people when they first Marry and connect.

So, are your "Friends" feelings or Your Husbands feelings more important to you?

Which answer Should be the correct one to any reasonable person?

LTL

Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist, specializing in infidelity for 40 years - author of Surviving an Affair:

The MB veterans have the best BS detectors around.

When my xH had his second affair in 2011, I didn't have any evidence. Only erased text messages and call log over a very short period of time, a few weeks, between himself and a female coworker, and an email from OW that he had tried to erase that said "are you OK?" He worked HARD to convince me that it was just a friendship that he didn't want me to "worry" about. I wanted to believe him because there was no time unaccounted for except for work.

MelodyLane and a few other vets told me they believed it was a full blown affair. They were right. Dr Harley is spot on with this stuff. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

Chobitz, THANK YOU so much for speaking to my thread. If you've ever searched for a personal counselor, you may know that finding a "good match" is critical to one's success. When I read your reply, I was able to exhale :-)

Tho some folks were indeed "unemotional & factual" -- a quote used earlier by someone, which I liked -- in the presentation of their/Dr. H's opinions, I've found many responses steeped in sarcasm, intentionally unkind or both. I can hardly believe that some people implied Disrespectful Judgments are OK when used outside of a marriage? I think DJs are unproductive choices in any communication w/anyone, with the exception of a comedian addressing an audience. I hope these folks were joking, but I don't think they were? I also hope they don't work in mediation or international diplomacy ;-) I'm pretty sure I remember Dr. H saying in the weekend seminar that DJs promote the irrational inflammation or shutdown of the person on the receiving end of it. I would agree.

Personally, Dr. H's take on negotiation/POJA is one of the most powerful things I've been introduced to so far. It's also partly why I agreed to my H's suggestion that we consider the MB program. I plan to pay more attention to avoiding DJs in what I say & how say it. Forthwith, I will practice that here on the Forum & in some other areas of my life.

Anyway, back to THANK YOU! Your post, more than any other, got my attention. You spoke to me in a way that made me WANT to listen & give deeper consideration to what you were saying. You did these things toward that end: you validated my feelings w/empathy before presenting your point of disagreement w/me; you shared intimate details about your own personal experience w/regard to MB principles & the success you experienced, instead of simply lambasting my opinions &/or posting quotes or links to canned MB doctrine (some of which has no direct relevance to my specific problem). I also LOVE that you did not presume to know my circumstances or my thoughts, nor the details of my life, my H's feelings or the nature of my friendships based solely on Dr. H's statistics.

I've read enough on this site in the past 3 months to know that many people here have overcome some amazing obstacles in relationships. For that, I admire them all. I know everyone advising me &/or my H has good intentions, even when I perceive their approach to be ineffective. I'd like to think they'd say I'm brave to share here, even tho they disagree with my personal views of marriage.

Back to you specifically: you're a volunteer right? Is there a way & would you be willing to allow me to text directly to you for advice on MB, if & when I have further questions? I promise not to impose upon you too much. You can set the boundaries. The best part is that we can have intimate conversation about my marriage or other pertinent issues because you are a woman! If you recommend I stay here in full view of everyone, I will most likely do it (tho sparingly from now on, I'll admit) -- especially if you present your reasons in the fine manner by which you replied to me the first time :-)

Oh, one last topic I'd like to discuss, if we may, re: your post. When I met & married H, I did not consciously "expect him to fit into MY life & just be happy with my friendships." If anything, I was the one fitting into HIS life. At 31, I willingly left my home, my job & my friends, moving 250 mi. to marry & move in w/him! This made his transition fairly easy & mine difficult. I had also never been married or even lived w/a boyfriend. Were you saying I unconsciously pushed him to accept something that was damaging? It never occurred to me that my friendships were damaging our marriage & H never once presented it to me as a problem. Not one single argument on the subject in 14 yrs. I can name 3 of my male friends who have stayed the weekend w/us in the past 10 yrs., all of whom are single! H was gracious & friendly, trusted me alone w/them & was completely comfortable (so I thought?). Perhaps H was not open & honest with me all those years? which I suppose is possible? It's also possible he's newly decided my OS friendship is the cause of my emotional disconnect -- not my perimenopause, our separate bedtimes, our misspent sex life or any number of long-duplicated LBs or unmet needs? I will be meeting with him tomorrow, so I will ask him. I have a lot to ask him & I expect he will have a lot to ask me! Thanks again for your time.

All it takes is one time cheating to destroy trust...your previous EA was all that was needed.
Stop harping on a past that is irrelevant today!!!!

You are no longer entitled to blind trust ... clearly you have poor boundaries around men which keep getting you into trouble because you let them meet needs to build a lovebank in you.

Stop harping on a past you destroyed and pull your head into 2014. Today you are on the verge of divorce. You can forget about OM he clearly isn't going to leave his wife and kids for you. Then all you are left with is a divorce that was nothing more than the result of your affair.

How sad...you are 47 years old. Men your age have lots of options in women, and an adulteress won't be hot on their list of choices.

If you want your marriage:

The best place to start is immediately move home with your husband.
Stop all contact with all opposite sex friends
Your husband and you have 100% transparency on everything in your life
Spend 25+ hours a week meeting each others intimate ENs....Affection, Recreational Companionship, Conversation, and sexual fulfillment.

There ... your plan!!!

Ooo, Markos, this is a helpful reply, too. Thank you! Everything you said here I agree with... but you are right, I have to decide if I want to stay in a marriage on this all-new level of each of us enthusiastically agreeing to everything.

I have to say, I like the idea of living an independent life & having everything my way. Maybe that happens to some people as they get older? And as their marriages become less interesting or satisfying? My experience is that staying happy in a marriage gets harder & harder... but it sounds like some people find it easier & easier?

I have to do decide how hard I want to work on this by now. I know H says he wants to work hard. I am the one who has been losing or nearly lost faith. I won't lie -- no highly-blended relationship to maintain, once all the separating is over, does have a lot of appeal to me right now.

My moving out is all about trying to decide if no-marriage might be right for me again. It was fine til I was 31. Then suddenly, H came along & being married seemed like the right thing. Great for about 12 yrs... but the last 3 yrs., not so much. And MB is really, really a LOT of work. It also seems nearly impossible to perfect, thus limiting my chances of success.

I know any number of life issues could be weighing on me, causing mental stress & depression. All I know is that I do feel happier away from H these last couple months. I know life might not be as happy if I'm fully on my own... but I don't know how to test that theory without a full-on legal separation/divorce... & there's no way to simply "try" that. It's either done or not done.

ChickenLittle, I am so glad that my post has spoken to you :-) As you will see, I am still a "junior" member, which means I don't post very often. I usually just lurk around on the forums as I am a great fan of the MB principles because it worked well for me. I however don't feel fully qualified to counsel people and the people here usually have such good advice that I only contribute when I feel I can say something that hasn't been said yet. My inexperience is also why I would rather just keep posting here under the supervision of others who have more experience in saving marriages.

With regards to the scepticism of the others on here, you must keep in mind that most people on this forum have been victims of affairs and have had to listen to the hundreds of lies and bs stories from waywards. 99% of the time people act the way you do, they are having an affair. They usually move out of the marriage home, insist on privacy and "alone" time, refuse to give up a certain opposite sex friendship, keep a private email account etcetera. I am one of the few who did not have an affair but also know how it feels to mistrusted by a paranoid partner, so I am not that quick to judge and find it very brave of you to post here. Which is why I took the time to share my story with you.

I used to think that if only I could convince my husband that I would never cheat on him, he would see that his feelings of paranoia are totally unnecessary and would let that go. Because of all the nightmares he had, I however realized that he was not in control of his feelings. My behavior made him believe that I was eventually going to leave him for someone else, so the only thing I could do was to stop any and all behavior that made him feel uncomfortable.

In your case, I think your husband never had reason to feel uncomfortable with your male friends, which is why he allowed it in the past. Your marriage was doing great so he had no reason to mistrust you. However, his approval didn't make those friendships any less dangerous as many people have ended up in affairs this way.

I understand that your lovebank was depleted to such an extent that you just wanted to get away from the situation and that the separation opened his eyes and made him willing to work on your marriage and eliminate lovebusters. However, your reluctance to sacrifice your freedom and privacy is not doing the recovery any good at this stage. Dr. Harley says the further you drift away from each other, the more effort it takes to reach each other again, which is why MB feels like a lot of work to you.

My advice to you would be to end the other sex friendships and open up your private email to your husband, with the condition that he keeps the info in there confidential. To move back in with your husband, but to thoroughly POJA all the conditions from both sides. Don't just sacrifice and end up with resentment towards him. When I moved 600 miles away from my parents I did it willingly, to a place I was excited about moving to (a beautiful beach town with a lovely climate). Getting rid of my male friends was not easy, but I still kept my get-togethers with my close female friends and we made new couple friends, so I still had enough social contact, something which us women seem to crave more than men.

I tend to snore, so my husband often flees from our bed in the middle of the night, and sometimes I would offer sleep on the couch to give him a peaceful night's rest, but we don't make a habit of it. We always go to bed together and cuddle, and if we ended up sleeping apart, I would get back in bed with him in the morning and cuddle again. A marriage just needs that intimacy.

My plea to you is to stop clinging to your own independence and to draw closer to your husband by allowing him into all aspects of your life. You can't convince someone to trust you using your words - trust is earned, so you will need to show him with your actions that you are willing to work on your marriage.

Dr. Harley says that the most common reason for women to become depressed is their relationships (for men it is work-related issues). It is possible that your strained relationship with your husband is a huge contributor to your depression, which is why resolving your marital issues may help you to conquer this depression.

What Dr. Harley has done is extensively studied happy marriages, to find out what makes them tick, to find out what the common feature are that make them happy. He's stripped out anything that was extraneous, creating a slim scaled-down set of things to do that make marriages happy.

Leave any one of those out, and the marriage ultimately turns sour.

What he's found is that only 20% of marriages really are happy. 40% end in divorce. 20% end in permanent separation (legally married for life, but separated). 20% stay married but are unhappy. He studied the remaining 20% - the ones that stay married for life and also stay happy with their marriage.

One crucial thing all those happy marriages have is that both husband and wife give up their right to make independent decisions. They integrate their whole life together rather than having any sections that are off-limits. And if they want to do something but it would make their spouse unhappy, they negotiate respectfully to find an alternative that would make them both happy.

What Dr. Harley has found is that if any particular area is made non-negotiable, the marriage will fail. So, for example, if someone insists the family has to attend a particular church, or certain holiday traditions have to be observed with the in-laws no matter how they act, or one insists they have to have a particular job regardless of how their spouse feels about it - whatever it is, that one thing will ultimately destroy the marriage.

I'd encourage you to dig deeper into this - look at Dr. Harley's books Love Busters and The One (aka Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders). They dig a whole lot into approaches that make marriages fail versus approaches that make marriages succeed.