We did a lot of stumbling along the road towards recovery, too, Blindsighted. It will get better and better as time passes and the habits of you and your husband change to marriage-building habits.

My H said a couple of weeks ago to me that although we've been married for 33-plus years, we've only really been TRULY married for the last three. The last three have been our best years ever, even though they arose out of the ashes of hurt and betrayal.

Keep on keeping on.

BTW, recently I heard Dr. Harley talk on the radio show about family visits. He suggests that a married couple agree ahead of time how long to stay and to leave BEFORE any bad feelings start. Leave wanting more.

May God bless you and your husband with an enriching and wonderful marriage that you both never dreamed possible.

Stumbling, yes LWFH, we have lots of stumbling. Yes, finally, the habits are starting to become our "go-to" for conflict resolution.

We took a road trip last weekend and went to visit our daughter in another state. It was very nice! We POJA'd everything and that took care of any possible fear of conflict.

The bar is exceedingly high now, and any little thing that H says or does that is the slightest veer away from a Godly man practicing Marriage Builders principles is NOT acceptable for me now. The good thing for us both is that finally I am able to make thoughtful requests or complaints (rather than LB) to deal with this.

I'd like some input from those who have gone before me on something: My family, H's family, our pastor�everyone keeps suggesting to me that I am being a bit too stringent. My Dad says I need to learn to trust again (nope, trust but verify). H's Mom says that I am being mean and that H "won't be able to live being chained to me like this" (nope, H says that he likes our EPs now, and that's good with me, because I won't stay M without them). Pastor says that I still need to learn to trust God more to be in charge of my life and that I need to back off a bit on my hyper-vigilance so that I don't become bitter (maybe, I'm thinking on that one).

I don't want to become a control freak. The goal is to REPAIR our M and go on to being able to enjoy a life with each other in a way that we never did before. I do want to become relaxed again in our marriage. But then again, some of these people have been witnessing us going through this for eight months already, and they seem to forget that TRULY we only began genuine recovery two months ago.

H and I both think that since this was such a long term A, that we quite literally HAD to throw out everything and start over. We both think that finally we are AT that point, with a clean slate so to speak. We have had continual bumps, but we are working through them. More on next post.

I think its easy to have an "opinion" when it is not your ox getting gored. What they think is not relevant to your marriage. What is relevant to your marriage is what you and your husband decide. What makes YOU feel safe? Hyper vigilance will make you feel safer, not more bitter. It will alleviate bitterness.

I would thank them for their marriage advice and do what is necessary.

Having EPs in no way means God is not in charge of your life. When God is in charge of your life, you still take precautions to protect yourself. For example, God is very much in charge of my life but I still wear a seat belt and look both ways before I cross the street. That doesn't mean I don't trust God, it means I make rational choices about protecting myself. Trusting God does not mean we take foolish risks.

I do believe that God can repair what we humans cannot, and so I am really wanting to turn my sadness and anger and hurt and trauma ALL over to Him. That sad wave of despair that has haunted me since D-Day is finally lifting for moments at a time.

We are having "normal life" conflicts finally, and I think that is a good thing!

For instance, H listens to MB on his phone app every single day while at work. We generally talk about it at night together. Sometimes it is tough for me because H is not reading the boards and doesn't get the whole story�and Dr. H will respond in a surprising way because on the radio show there is only so much time and the whole story is not divulged. And then H will feel frustrated if Dr. H is seemingly inconsistent.

I don't want to waste our valuable UA time going and looking things up on these boards so that H gets the whole story (when the caller is someone on these boards and we can read the thread)�it takes HOURS for him to maneuver these boards, truly it does�he is just not computer literate.

So finally last evening we POJA'd about us NOT having to fill in the gaps any more after the daily radio show LOL�Whew, what a relief for me today!

Thank you Melody! I appreciate the re-assurance. I needed that! I think that now that we are into this for a couple of months, I will try to come on here more often and post day to day stuff so that you all can point out if I am still in the BS fog.

Another point�after exposure and then the FR, we both were in a goldfish bowl for all to see�I am going to bring that up for POJA tonight�we can practice how I can respond to this stuff in the future.

I agree. I think what Pastor is saying is that now I am being hyper-vigilant at everything, not just our EPs.

For instance, our youngest daughter trains horses for a second job. Two weeks ago she took on a stallion that I was scared to death of, and I kept calling her every couple of days to remind her of things that she KNOWS. She said that I was driving her nuts and that she couldn't go about her life waiting for bad things to happen. I had such a horribly bad feeling about it�and sure enough ten days ago, the horse couldn't get her off of him, and so he resorted to flipping over with her on his back. The hospital cleared her of any injuries except for a horribly sprained ankle, but I am nuts about THAT now�that's why we went down to see her and her hubby last weekend LOL. YES I see that she is alive and fine and wearing a big old air boot on her leg, but I am still afraid.

In a nutshell, I am having to come to grips that bad things can and do happen to good people. I was 50 years old, thought that we were financially set, and thought that we had a solid M that would last the rest of our lives. I had cancer the year before and when you find that out, you instantly want to believe it is a nightmare also. So then when the A was discovered a year later, it's like WOW my safe cocoon is not only NOT safe, but not REAL! Hah!

I don't necessarily think that the A rocked my faith�I personally think that I have turned to God more than ever�but Pastor may be right that I am not trusting the same. Maybe that is not a bad thing really�more like a shock of real life. Maybe an opportunity to learn real gratitude for what we DO have?

This Pastor is not from our faith of origin. We tried going to our own church for help and did not get much, and so my brother set us up with his pastor. Pastor has helped us so much that now we attend services there. I am focusing MUCH more on the Bible than I ever did before, and if my trust in God needs to be notched up, then I am open.

Rational choices to protect myself�THAT is what I need to focus on, thank you again Melody. The EPs are rational, taking vigilant care with my health right now is rational, obsessive worrying about my daughter's own choices are not necessarily rational, are they?

I am stunned when I think of all the crappy well-meaning advice I have heard over the years regarding marriage. Women are advised to "submit" and "forgive," that we will all answer to God one day. Very few people really know how to advise others in how to have a great marriage.

Even Dr. Harley failed in his first attempts at counseling. He mistakenly believed it was commitment that held a marriage together. It wasn't until after he deeply analyzed the reasons he and Joyce were so happy together and then studied many other marriages that he began to uncover what makes marriages successful and what causes them to fail.

MB has taught us a completely new way of living out our marriage and it is very logical. The EPs and the POJA keep a marriage safe. If they were a part of every marriage, infidelity would not exist. Anyone who says it's controlling or hypervigilant just doesn't understand. They're not living the betrayal and trying desperately to recover.

Give yourself a couple of years at the very minimum to start to feel like you're beginning to trust your H again. And it will never again be the kind of blind trust we all once had. It will be the trust that your husband has your back, that he has your best interests in mind.

And good for you two for negotiating and coming to enthusiastic agreement about how to listen to the radio show.

You're right on the nose, LWFH. I'm realizing after talking on here today that well-meaning "advice" has gotten to almost be a trigger to me. My Dad especially is so important to me, but (fortunately) he hasn't ever been through anything similar.

I shared on someone else's thread how I am realizing that I need to notch down the auto-accept of my elder's opinions. Thank you Melody and LWFH for helping me to realize this.

Yep! EPs and POJA and PORH are the only way that we have gotten this far. It's an interesting exercise to become logical about this, but it WORKS!

So now hyper-vigilant me is going to remain that way and head out of here to get ready for date night.

Still hanging in here. We had a rough weekend due to POJA issues, but then we were able to solve them on Monday night and had a good Tuesday and Wednesday.

I am still not "enjoying" UA time, but we do seem to both be aiming towards that moving target. Last weekend when we got away, we went swimming in the hotel pool and had a good time. So we decided to get me a Y membership so that we can try swimming together. Swimming used to be one of my favorite things�not sure if H will enjoy it though�he says yes he will if he can see that I am having fun. We will try. We ended up settling on just a membership for me, and then we will pay the $10 guest fee each time that H goes with me.

H continues to stick to EPs and I have noticed a couple of times in the last few days where he is volunteering information about phone calls and general rooms of his life that he is sharing with me. I am trying to make a point of letting him know that I notice, and thanking him for including me.

This morning we noticed that when I am feeling icky, H falls all over himself to give near-constant re-assurance�but then when I am feeling better (like I have for the last couple of days), H doesn't think of giving re-assurance as often. Then I seem to start thinking�and that is not generally a good thing lol. So I asked H if he could notch up the re-assurance on the good days too. He got up from the table and gave me a big hug and said that he had just thought the same thing because he could tell that I had gotten quiet. So that was an easy POJA. Crossing fingers!

Okay, off for the day here. I said that I would try to come on here more often to post day to day stuff so that you all can alert me if I am having BS fog. Kind of boring post I know, but thanks for reading.

BlindSighted,

I'm not anywhere near a Recovery situation yet, but I appreciate hearing how you are doing. You have helped so many people here already. And I can hear your dedication and determination to work on Recovery in each post. (And your H has come a long way!) Personally, I think you are doing great! Thank you for your posts - they encourage me to do better too.

Good news on the swimming, BlindSighted! Dr. H says that exercising together is one of the most effective uses of UA time...

Your commitment to post regularly at this time is a good idea. Sometimes the act of writing everything down helps clarify things in your mind. The little wins, and the litlle irritations, too. These little chafe-points can work like sand in your shoe... not really noticible until you get a blister, and then it's too late...

Not at all a boring post! It is so good to read this update from you. Recovery isn't easy, is it?

I was reading some older posts from you...

Sorry to hear that your mother in law hasn't treated you well. I can sympathize with you on that one. I also completely understand that it hurts you that your husband would even want to be around her. I struggle with this! We did go "no contact" again, but it hasn't been easy. It was the "elephant in the room" for a while. I hope you and your H are able to work through this and POJA a solution that works for both of you.

I also know ignoring all the unsolicited advice and judgments about what you are doing to recover your marriage is easier said than done. As long as both you and your H believe in the program though, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. You both know what is working for you.

Keep us updated. Your struggles and feelings are very similar to mine, and your posts (and the replies!) are such a blessing to me, and I'm sure to others.

Hi Stronger, my H has actually backed way off from MIL. He has only spoken to her twice on the phone this week for like 4 minutes each time. I'm not certain why, but he did mention to me the other evening that she is not acting like a very good person lately. I am just kind of stepping back and watching and waiting.

As for the holidays, I think that we spent 1/2 hour with her on Thanksgiving, and maybe an hour at Christmas (Christmas was actually my choice as we had POJAd before hand just to pop in and out, and then it was actually pleasant enough for me�so that I was the one who took H aside and offered to stay longer).

The larger POJA issues that we are having do involve MIL though.

The "family" apartments that I have mentioned previously. They are all MILs now after FIL passed away. H and I had previously been maintaining them and collecting the rents.

Then d-day hit, and H can NOT go there alone ever again. So H hired other people for maintenance, and we started going there together every Friday together to collect the rents.

Except for THEN I discovered the FR, and everything had to change again. NO MORE driving to the apartments the way that we used to go. We made a one hour no-travel circle around OWs zone, and so now we can't go on any of the freeways that we have known our whole lives. Now we have to go way out of our way to get to the apartments (and any where)�it takes SO long to drive now that we count it as 3 hours of UA time lol...and so we POJAd only going twice monthly to collect rents.

Well�.last week after that huge cold spell, two of the apartments had floods and one furnace was trashed. H called people to take care of the flooding, but they were inept and so we ended up POJA'ing and going there ourselves to at least stop the water. We are having trouble getting reliable help, and now he has three more maintenance people that we will interview in two weeks when we go there. But as for the furnace, we finally settled on our adult daughter going with H for a Daddy-Daughter day out and they will install the furnace together.

Enthusiastic agreement about them spending time together. He will take her out to a nice lunch, and they will be able to heal some wounds (hopefully) from the A.

But we are both disappointed in the way that we handled this. It was grueling and it took us almost a WEEK of POJA'ing! We kept having to take breaks to avoid LB'ing. I did stick to my guns and I don't think that I sacrificed. We did finally solve it, yay, but we are definitely whipped puppies!

Great idea about the Daddy-Daughter time for the furnace! I love to hear how persistently you guys are PoJA'ing. Sounds like you both are doing well in Recovery.

BlairBluefin, I guess that it really DOES seem pretty awesome to be this far already�it really does, so thank you!

I guess that to both of us it still feels that we mess up more than we get it right.

I have to be honest and say that I feel practically nothing, nada, less than inspired, about H ever since the FR. Yes, we are getting over 30 hours per week UA time, just for us, set aside�but I am not having fun.

For 32 years, I truly operated from love, but unfortunately it was unconditional love.

I get some little sparks these days, but then my natural "go-to" seems to be self-protector mode. I really feel certain that if I did not already have an aged and experienced self confidence level in tact (thank God), I would have two feet out the door. That plus the Grace of God has kept me here.

So it is still beyond tough for me to even be in UA time, yet alone enjoy it. He is being totally humble and planted firmly in stepping ON home plate, but I really DO have to be with him nearly 24/7 (due to his entrenched A). He made dinner last night (stuffed peppers!), he goes with me to my doc appointments, he helps me with my work now, he prays with me every day! If he had acted like this pre-D-Day, I would be salivating round the clock.

But most every single night, I still wake every two hours or so with visions of them having wild sex (unfortunately, on D-Day 2 he told me what they did).

I still am trusting all of the previous MB folks who say that the passion will return. The really GREAT thing is that SF is one of my highest needs, and so once he started actively trying to meet my needs for that plus affection, etc, it keeps me going. Sad to say, I know, because the very thing that does give me some relief also causes me horrible mind tapes. I don't know how to get around them, but I AM trusting God and all of you who have gone before me (yes I have almost memorized the mind memories thread, and it is GREAT! That plus praying has gotten me through so far).

Im so sorry for your pain

It sounds like you feel raw, and surreal much of the time. I can't even imagine your pain. Your H pulled a number on you, having that LTA for such a long time. He will need to work very hard to earn that spot back in your heart.

I'm saying extra prayers for you tonight.

Thanks Jedi and Blair. I sure don't mean to be a downer (sounds like I was when I re-read my post). The FR did a number on me energy wise, but most days I am able to now look forward and use all of the tools that we have learned here to help keep myself positive.

Those mind tapes are worse when I am tired, that is for sure.

I think that normal life stuff like we had to POJA last week takes a bigger toll than we realize. H brought up last evening that perhaps we STILL need to pare down our activities and do less. I think that he is right, so we will figure out how to do that.

Yes BlairBluefin, I think that it may take extra diligence for me to feel that passion again, but we both do seem to be committed. Thank you for your prayers.

Do you feel that your love bank is trending in the right direction (even if it is sometimes 2 steps forward, 1 step back)?

I'm going to project myself on you a little bit now, so if I'm off the mark, I apologize. I know I struggle with being completely vulnerable to my H - on the one hand, my heart is protected; however, my heart can't fully love him either. I don't know when I'll feel safe enough to be vulnerable, but I know I must do it to truly have the marriage that I want, even though it seems like such a risk to me!

After everything you've been through (especially the FR), I think it is going to take time, maybe lots of time, to cross over the threshold. It sounds like the two of you are doing all the right things and that eventually the spark/passion will return. I, like you, am trusting the process.

I don't honestly know, StrongerMe, I don't feel much at all except for I guess what I would describe as a "contentment" with where we are now. I don't feel that welling of love in my heart like I used to feel.

Yes! When he does things now that extra thoughtful, I DO notice them, but then my mind seems to say "can't trust that it's real!".

We are still LB'ing (very occasionally) each other when a conflict "sneaks up on us", and I think that causes me to stay in this "safe" mode. Maybe him too? We seem to be able to save it FAST now, we recognize it FAST and we POJA pleasantly to solve it FAST in spite of our Takers. But we know that is not good enough.

We identify conflicts sooner now, and we POJA all through the day, but sometimes we are still missing that safe target in dealing with things quickly enough.

For instance, last night after I got ready for bed, I came into the kitchen to see his phone turned over. Trigger, Trigger, Trigger! I LB'ed him with my words, and then I left him sitting there (while I immediately abandoned him to check �all good, he had just called a renter as he had told me he did, but THEN I went and took his phone and physically checked all of his history and photos, and pretty much his whole phone right in front of him).

And I did annihilate him with my words�he asked for us please not to over-react and ruin the night, and I responded that "oh no, HE ruined the night by his choices for 13 years, and so now I am going to do what I have to do to protect myself".

I should have waited until today to check everything, rather than stuffing my total mis-trust in his face. I check everything once daily any way. I realize that brought up the A and the REASONS for my trigger, and so that alone was a LB. He was hurt by my words and then he LB'ed me when we went to bed and I tried to cuddle. Ugliness on both of our parts.

We POJAd in bed last night and came up with an enthusiastic agreement for dealing with it enough so that we could both be calm and sleep.

This morning he apologized to me with affection, and offered for us to POJA if I want him to get rid of his phone and just wear a GPS on his person. No I do not, and I apologized to him for my actions also, but as I am typing this out I realize that I played a big part in this LB-fest and I need to apologize again. This is SO DIFFICULT�.I was triggered because of trauma from what HE did�and yet I have to still be kind and considerate. I KNOW that I have to do that, and so I guess I need to step up my learning.

I've just realized that DUH we can POJA making it a rule that his phone is NEVER turned over. No opportunity to trigger! We both seem to be unable to see the forest for the trees sometimes.

The problem with LB'ers is that I really AM (finally) realizing that they are intentional disregard of our spouse's feelings. I had never truly understood that before, even though Dr. H always stated it as so.

We both agree that now any mis-handling of conflict is hurting so much more than it used to, and that is probably because we ARE FINALLY STARTING TO BECOME interdependent. That is a great thing! But now we have to take EXTRAORDINARY CARE not to hurt each other!

StrongerMe, I re-read your entire Starting Recovery thread last week and yes you and your H seem to have been through much similar to us. Sometimes I wonder if people read my posts and wonder just how in the world we are even still together lol.

Are you still feeling in limbo with feelings of love also? Did you ever post after your FR? The thread that I read didn't specifically discuss that, so I am betting that I did not read the correct thread. Is there one out there? You don't have to provide a link to it if you are uncomfortable, but if you have one then I will go searching for it again. I would love to read it if you don't mind. I do think that you and I think a lot alike (including the female logorrhea stuff�I think that I used to do that big time, and you've helped me a TON by reading your posts about it).

Hehe, I write such long posts here. Do you all think that I still have female logorrhea?

Yes, I think that a LTA does have some extra difficulties. The extreme trauma of losing years of our lives probably causes us to trigger more often whenever we have a past memory. But I also do see and believe that Dr. H is correct in saying that every A can recover in the same way by following his plan. We just have to find the way to get to zero together, so that we can begin true R. I do *think* that we are there finally�but of course if others read my post and see BS fog, please let me know.

Trying to keep with my commitment to post updates periodically.

Last week when the new Budweiser commercial was released, I was so excited to show hubby. We both love animals.

H started crying by the end of it. I was very startled, and then I realized that the song says how you only know you love her when you let her go. I felt like I had a ton of bricks on my chest, and I thought that he was crying because he "only knew he loved OW when he let her go". I cannot ask that though, right? So I didn't. I told him that I had been excited to show him the commercial and that I am sorry for upsetting him with it.

He said oh no, he loved it, and those are happy tears. This didn't make much sense to me, and I was upset for two days because I didn't know what to say or do.

Finally on Saturday morning, I took him coffee in bed and said that I needed his help with something. I told him that I didn't know if it was appropriate to bring up because it involved a trigger. He said that he wanted to hear what was bothering me.

So I told him about my worry, and it initiated a long discussion. He told me that it was nothing to do with OW at all, and more to do with his feelings coming to the surface lately. He says that he would have cried even if there were no music, and that he was crying because it was a beautifully done snippet about the horses working together to support the puppy so that the pup could be all that he could be. H said that he did not feel that kind of support from me once we had the children, and that he always felt incredibly lonely. He said that everything that he had tried to do to support us financially was never good enough.

I told him thank you for sharing that with me, and asked if he feels supported today. He said that he does feel my support now.

H DOES have a point about his feelings. He was making a lot of money and it truly was never enough because our youngest had lupus and the medical bills were astounding. But through my eyes, I thought that we were ALL working together to do the best that we could in a bad situation.

His words did hurt my feelings, but I can own my contribution to the problem (LB'er abounded from both of us, and so really we weren't working together). MB teaches us that if those were his feelings at the time, then they were RIGHT even though I also felt like I was carrying a big load... Running the household, working, taking daughter to doctors, help with schoolwork, OH MAN I could step off the edge of that anger slope if I keep thinking about it. But it's the PAST, right? Should I think about why it is that I have empathy for him, and he sees this situation all through his perspective without thinking the best or having empathy for me?

I'm trying to guess what you all will say�that this is the PAST, and that is why Dr. Harley says not to bring up the past. And for us both to be constantly RH so that we never have to bear any frustrating feelings alone again. I CAN bring that up to H, right? Like just say "honey, I'm thinking about what you told me about feeling so alone in our past, and I want to assure you that I care for you and never want you to feel unhappy like that again. Can we promise to always be asap radically honest in the future whenever we feel anything that bothers us?". Should I just leave it at that?

This recovery stuff is DIFFICULT!